pvp

[potent pivot]

4 resets

[grave basin]

The fomo is real

[potent pivot]

you can only get a couple people the mount at once

3 drop per lock out

[grave basin]

Oh my

Reee

[potent pivot]

So you can’t infinitely farm it for as many people as you want

[grave basin]

I wish i got the fyrakk mount tbh

Not gonna miss this chance

[potent pivot]

Ye it’s very unusual for an expansion end boss mount to be this cheap

Gallywix and ansurek mounts are also really cheap

[last tapir]

Razageth, Sarkageth dont have a CE mount

[outer sky]

You should probably just buy now at 900k-1m

You may save another 100k if you wait but you also may screw yourself by not being able to get a slot because everyone's booked out so far in advance at these ridiculously low prices

Not worth it imo

[spring bough]

Doooo iiiiittttttt

Buy it why not lol

[grave basin]

How much is a token on Na rn

[spring bough]

Last time I checked was around 250-300k

So that’s like $80 bucks or so lol

[quick crypt]

Is here any outlaw theorycrafter and theorypractitioner? Need a good build for pvp

[vocal surge]

Sub Outlaw + Sub Assa

[vocal surge]

CQQA6i6ki8tqEZF+5XBKpc8wuCgZ2mBjZYmtZmZmZ8AmtNjZmtptBbzAAAAAAstMzMYmZmZMzMGAAAAGDAmthxMjmZ2wGLmwCDwMzMDA

[quick crypt]

Ty ❤️

[vocal surge]

Enemy rogue team decided to focus me down and im just sitting there like

y'know

[quick crypt]

How do you like Outlaw in PVP? 1-10, 10 is the best

[vocal surge]

9

We're undertuned (missing Gravedigger mainly)

[spring bough]

AOE Blinding every 16 seconds as trickster feels so criminal

Spreading that blackjack healing reduction 🔥

[vocal surge]

or denying FOTMing Sub Rogues

their burst windows

[vocal surge]

ez clap

Boomy + Outlaw v SurvH + ProtPal

[spring bough]

Survival who 🗣️

[vocal surge]

A lot of undergeared people to farm in skirms lol

[lime oar]

i really just wanna play s3 assa again lmao

rip

[vocal surge]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-dmc5-alexzandergreats-gif-25691024

Me rn after face tanking my nemesis' burst (He was playing Devourer DH and we were 1v1ing in a skirm)

we won that game

[gleaming sentinel]

my guy out here linking skirmishes, what a legend

[vocal surge]

Skirms be fun

Even more fun when you know someone from a PvP guild on the server

[vocal surge]

He's so mad

Rytes is so mad

he came out to Goldshire to duel me on another spec

[stoic spruce]

Rytes is always mad

What did he try to fight you woth after DH

[severe helm]

Gravedigger is one of the weakest apex talents out of all specs

So don't get your hopes up

[gusty hedge]

i remembered why i went alliance for wpvp, because people like this def not sorry. Red is Dead

[sharp sierra]

FIrst time ive seen an alliance guy not in a 500 man premade

[stoic spruce]

I'm convinced it's not real tbh

He obv reported them after, being alliance an all.

[gusty hedge]

im on horde currently and they are pathetic

[gusty hedge]

solo player my whole wow life /shrug

[spring bough]

Everything’s going to be okay 😭

[severe helm]

if youre wanting outlaw to be good in pvp you just have to hope we are insanely overtuned

gona feel weird to play with so little cc and defensives from the vanish not on restless blades and losing evasion/feint on cdr as well

[stoic spruce]

I wonder what we did before evasion cdr

Guess we'll just keel over

[molten hedge]

u just do it like assa rogs have been

[spring bough]

16 second AoE blind is gonna be my calling card

[stoic spruce]

Assa dies because they cloak on opener

[molten hedge]

we do love when a rog trinkets aggro and opens with evasion

[stoic spruce]

Every assa in shuffle

[indigo hill]

I just noticed you can put a legion neck enchant on your crafted pvp necklace. Does about 3k damage. XD

[molten hedge]

Which one king @indigo hill

You ain’t livin if you aren’t minmaxxing prepatch/beta

[indigo hill]

Mark of the hidden satyr

[jolly sierra]

is hidden satyr that crazy lol

i have the recipe

use it in heirlooms mostly

[indigo hill]

I normally do that as well but saw the ilvl you can use it on is 120 and the crafter pvp items have a ilvl of 113 outside of pvp.

Gonna test it a bit more.

Was 3k on a dummy.

[lime oar]

now ima know why a rogue is randomly summoning satyrs an casting on my ahh

[vocal surge]

He swapped specs lol

From Devourer DH to Havoc

[indigo hill]

It's much lower in instanced pvp but still a bit of damage.

[quick crypt]

Is thistle mandatory for outlaw or can it be swapped for double vanish or cb?

[vocal surge]

Its up to you, our energy economy doesn't improve till Midnight Lvl 90

[dark kernel]

We will be able to not play nelf as sub rogues

I'm making it a reality

[potent pivot]

This is already the reality tho fr

[severe helm]

yeah wait why would sub want NE

[potent pivot]

Mainly just to meld casts

But orc is rly good

[stoic spruce]

Ur mom is good

[molten hedge]

It’s time for dracthyr sub rog stonks to rise

7% mast and 2 more disruption tools

[potent pivot]

I think orc/hmt/panda are better

But idk

[molten hedge]

I’m memeing. What’s panda get outside of incap again

[potent pivot]

Basically just the incap

[outer sky]

Idk if the incap is worth it given the 2m CD

But maybe

I think Orc is BiS for sub

But im gunna stay Nelf because I want to be able to play assa too

[molten hedge]

And not look ugly

[final anvil]

hey guys, for deathstalker sub on prepatch in 2s, is it better to run double vanish or energy build?

and im guessing master vers stacking is meta?

[potent pivot]

Human just isn’t that great

[potent pivot]

Deathstalker is dead rn

[molten hedge]

ive been playing trickster but remind me why DS is dead again what bug is it

[potent pivot]

If the mark gets cleared you can never reapply

[molten hedge]

oh ok yea that

[keen canopy]

my favorite deathstalker build is "Don't use it" 🔥

[potent pivot]

[molten hedge]

Trickster has some good stuff about it. Fake bomb can work sometimes 😂

Got zicore ass with it 💀

[potent pivot]

L0l

[outer sky]

People ironically pic human for the 2nd trinket because they're afraid of dying in a stun when Orc is 10x better at preventing dying in a stun

[molten hedge]

Tuhwoooo

[outer sky]

Buddy let me play with a real team and not someone who started MW monk 3 hours ago and we can war game best 3/5 with 1m gold on the line lets go lol

[molten hedge]

It was the highlight of my night

i saw both of those guys were chronic duelist

[outer sky]

Yeah and the monk was a duelist DK lol

[molten hedge]

lmao

[outer sky]

Eh basically how I am irl

Shits hilarious. Like human outlaw rogue. So in a game where you can be a shapeshifting master of nature, an elemental controlling wizard, or a warlock with an army of immortal demons, you decided to be a human pirate

So basically youre Somalian

In a fantasy game

ggs

[final anvil]

with tricker,, is it still full mastery build?

[outer sky]

Officially no, play haste. But if you want to global someone play mastery. Imo mastery is more fun

[molten hedge]

^

[potent pivot]

Prepatch scaling is jank so atm you can play whatever

After the expansion launches you won’t stack mastery like the past few years

[grave basin]

Same as male human with big sword

[outer sky]

Bro human survival hunter right now is legit me IRL

[grave basin]

You know i was thinking

Pure melee classes in the big 26

Its the most miserable experience shuffle has to offer

[final anvil]

ah thank you makes sense

is there a decent guide for trickster for beginners? for rotation and such

[outer sky]

Not really

[molten hedge]

u dont change how u play at all. if u see u get an unseen blade u can hit that then secret tech i believe bc u get 5 stacks of flawless which makes ur tech hit hard af

[grave basin]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1qvyw27/release_date_for_1201_confirmed_february_10th/

so next reset we get the new - new build on retail

[vocal surge]

Doing 60k DPS

xD

[grave basin]

finally ran out of things to do with the meta achievements so ig it's back to shuffle

yea see you guys on beta

[stoic spruce]

See you guys in midnight

What?

[grave basin]

meanwhile beta queues are 5mins

[dark moon]

I need 500 more tickets for the darkfuse coat

[grave basin]

im not grinding the insane title

[dark moon]

Been shoveling scrap

[grave basin]

oh darkfuse

[dark moon]

Yeah

[grave basin]

got that done in the same patch

[dark moon]

A friend of mine did the insane title in a weekendnwith the 50% buff

[grave basin]

ill get that done next winds buff

dont wanna burn out

[dark moon]

Fair enough

[grave basin]

i only need the dungeon achievements now

cant do mythic algethar cause it's closed till s1

cant do mythic tazevesh cause it's current set for m+

[dark moon]

What?

Oh cause its current expansion dungeons

M+ doesn't count or what?

If m+ counts and you're on EU I can help you

[grave basin]

m+ means it's not soloable

[dark moon]

Its groupable

[grave basin]

yea but there aint no group that's willing to do the piss i need

im on NA

[dark moon]

Darn

I tried, hah

[grave basin]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z2aFz9HUnzM

this one

[dark moon]

Oh that's the hardmode one

That's soloable in next season

[grave basin]

yeap...

once it's out of the m+ pool it's back to being a shadowlands dungeon

i cant solo it in heroic

to get the first part

[dark moon]

Why isn't algethar academy mythic available

Its noy current season

That's weird

[grave basin]

it's being prepped for s1 midnight

[dark moon]

But s1 is not active

Thats weird

Anyway

I saw the mini cc update that works as big debuffs and im liking it

Just had to remove the reverse swipe option

[sharp sierra]

If anybody actually does it after this expac but it’s high demand so I’m sure there will one group

[sharp sierra]

I did 4 hrs a day so I don’t crash out lmao got that cool super rare mount from it tho

[grave basin]

I meant the insane title

[sharp sierra]

Oh oh

[dark moon]

That what ive done for the past 3 nights

I started with mob grinding, but saw its been nerfed so i joined shoveling groups

But it's so mind dulling i can endure about 3 - 4 hours while listening to podcasts and watching youtube

[subtle warren]

For sub arena, I know the normal rotation is gloomblade/backstab - evis and repeat.

1. Do you always wait for max combo points if you’re going to evis?
2. When dancing, is it always shadowstrike over gloom/backstab?
   Ty

[outer sky]

1. You can evisc with 1 less than max
2. Yes

[subtle warren]

Ty, 1 other question I guess. How often are you cheap/kidneying a kill target vs using it to cc healer/ other dps while you evis kill target

Is it cd dependent? Like use it when trinket is down and they can’t break stun? Or still
Use it on occasion to get trinket + cds?

[outer sky]

Usually its kidney on healer and double cheap on the kill target

[subtle warren]

Tyty makes sense

[grave basin]

damn i just played my first beta shuffle

and i hate double deep breath already

[subtle warren]

Spoke too soon one more q, does race (largely) matter right now?

[molten hedge]

Orc and nelf are always rly good

I made an orc rog ln. Lvling is a pain in the ass. I’m always one global away from boosting it

[outer sky]

If you never want to play assa, then race isnt super big. Nelf and Orc are BiS but it hardly matters. Human is fine too. But if you want to play assa then you really need to be nelf

[outer sky]

I still have the level 80 boost i got from pre-ordering Midnight. Im tempted to use it to boost a 4th rogue

[acoustic junco]

You go a bad race to assert domination.

[molten hedge]

I would also have a fourth with this new one hahah nice

Why is timewalking so screwey sometimes? It felt like we were all naked trying to kill mobs doing no dmg with 3 80s. Is the scaling randomly screwed

[subtle warren]

Why doesn’t it matter as much for sub? Does assa not have a combat drop outside of vanish or something?

Or is it just assa benefits from meld more?

[outer sky]

Assa still has spammable garrote silence coming out of stealth so having the extra vanish via shadowmeld to get into stealth is big value

[potent pivot]

i think this is something you're doing in prepatch that wouldn't normally work

[subtle warren]

Why not?

[potent pivot]

Because you wouldn’t normally land a kill in 2 cheaps

In real games you will have to kidney KT/bomb/etc

[agile kite]

i heard sub in midnight pvp is brain dead easy

[potent pivot]

The rotation is a bit easier

You’ll still need a good understanding of cc

[agile kite]

i was rawdogging sub without dr tracker

if anything im gaining addons in midnight

[dark kernel]

I love sub rogue

[outer sky]

Depends on how broken whatever caster we end up playing stun bot for is

[potent pivot]

yeh

also depends on if short blind stays the way it is kinda

[outer sky]

Short blind is really good but man losing gouge is such a cuck. Also if we end up playing with a lock or boomie then idk how good it will be to use their fear/clone DR like that

[severe helm]

I feel like outlaw isnt really a stun bot anymore though

warrior has more stuns lol

[outer sky]

Think thats true for assa too. I was specifically talking about sub getting a kill in 2 cheap shots

[severe helm]

yeah but historically assa's value is far more than a stunbot

[severe helm]

yeah I think sub will be on a completely different level than outlaw in midnight

comparing the kits its comical how much better sub is now

[outer sky]

Shot in the Dark needs to go to the class tree

[severe helm]

eh it wouldnt matter

the cooldown of vanish is more than cheap shot

so its not really relevant

outlaw cant even run into a situation where you dont have cheap shot for your vanish unless you were to vanish right in the opener haha

subs the only one who can even encounter that problem and ofc they gave them a talent to solve it lol

[potent pivot]

they could make a pvp talent or summin

[severe helm]

would it be worth taking though?

[potent pivot]

idk it just feels like something should be done about the cc loss for assa/outlaw

[severe helm]

why would your cheap shot be on cd for your vanish every 2 mins

[severe helm]

I agree strongly yeah

[potent pivot]

otherwise sub is going to be the only real meta spec all expansion

[severe helm]

im not sure what theyre gona do

I think assa could survive maybe

[potent pivot]

no i meant a pvp talent to shorten vanish CD or something

[severe helm]

aaaaah

[potent pivot]

with shot in the dark on class tree

[severe helm]

yeah that would be really good

[outer sky]

I think they kind of ran themselves into a problem here with sub. They basically have to massively overtune one of the other 2 specs for them to be worth playing over sub. And sub itself with 20s Dance CD sub is basically doomed to be either very overtuned or very undertuned

[potent pivot]

yeh

[severe helm]

outlaw desperately needs some pvp talents

cuz its new kit is so gutted

its abilities have been nerfed so hard too

and afaik they havent reverted the bte crit nerf even though the bte crit damage was reduced

[outer sky]

But if shot in the Dark went for all specs, you'd get 2 cheap shots per vanish

[severe helm]

oh does it give you like two charges?

[outer sky]

Yes

[severe helm]

I thought it just resets the cooldown when you enter stealth

I see

[outer sky]

Nah you get 2

[severe helm]

yeah that would be better than nothing but I think every 2 minutes still isnt enough compared to sub having it every 30 seconds rofl

the idea that subs identity is the control spec is just wrong since its also the burst spec and the hard to kill spec lol

[outer sky]

Well

Sub has such high uptime on dance now

One thing you can do

Ive done it

[severe helm]

yeah its just the everything spec

[outer sky]

Dance>double cheap>cancel aura dance>dance again>3rd cheap

[severe helm]

that seems wasteful lol

[outer sky]

Stun the whole team then DR kidney

Its actually completely fine

You dont feel dance starved at all

[severe helm]

whats dance cd?

[outer sky]

20s

[severe helm]

LOL

[outer sky]

2 charges

[outer sky]

So like in my haste build dance lasts 8s and I have 2 charges on a 20s CD so that means I can have dance up 16/20s. So if I cancel one dance and use another one for an extra cheap shot its fine because ill have it back before I can stun anything again anyway.

In fact ill have it back and pretty good progress on the 2nd charge CD top

[severe helm]

would it be worth to not stack haste since you dont really need more than one dance per DR?

I mean you can force cds with 2 cheap shots so the 3rd isnt gona really change your win condition

[outer sky]

If you don't stack haste you get 6-6.5s dance

I think it really depends on how hard finishers hit

Like right now sectec slams on prepatch so its worth it IMO to buff it with mastery

Ive used both builds

And yeah even with 6s dance I dont feel starved for charges

[severe helm]

I thought haste reduced its cd

its just duration?

[outer sky]

No it extends its duration

[severe helm]

so they made dance 20s cd baseline???

bro what the fuck are they doing over there

[outer sky]

Yeah its 20s baseline and haste extends its duration

Which is baseline 6s

[outer sky]

Yeah you should try it. It feels like you always have dance even if you dont stack tons of haste. Also haste reduces the CD of sectec. And since shadow blades is nerfed to only a 5% damage buff in pvp, every set of stun DRs you have dance and sectec so youre only ever missing out on the 5% damage from blades

And badge trinket ig

[severe helm]

nah I hate sub lol

[outer sky]

It feels way better now than it has before

[potent pivot]

💀

crazy statement

[outer sky]

Hardly. You liked being removed from the game because you got disarmed on dance so you couldnt use it to farm CDR and now have to wait 50s for another dance?

Fuck that

[potent pivot]

I liked being able to properly express a higher skill set than those that would happen to yes indeed

[outer sky]

Also sectec doing more damage than evisc is so good. The game of "press sectec to buff your next evisc" was lame

[outer sky]

Ive seen it happen to Nahj

So i dont believe it didnt happen to you

Like dance and sectec every single set of DRs with sectec slamming feels infinitely better imo

[potent pivot]

I mean sometimes it’s just unavoidable but I don’t see how the changes change that either lol

[outer sky]

Because you build and spend CPs faster during dance. So if you cant press buttons during it, you cant maximize your CDR. And with dance on a 1m CD if that happened it sometimes meant you'd get no CDR and have to wait almost the full CD for another one

[potent pivot]

I just think it’s a crazy statement to say sub feels better when it’s been dumbed down and you’ve only played a broken form of it

[outer sky]

But with 20s dance its hardly a problem

Im talking about the fluidity of the spec

Like the numbers tuning doesn't change the fact that theres no more just sitting there waiting for dance

[potent pivot]

ig

I’d prefer old sub any day though

[outer sky]

Well maybe they'll release bfa classic for you

[potent pivot]

Losing rupture/symbols and CDR just makes it feel 0iq

[potent pivot]

Any real sub player would agree

[outer sky]

I liked symbols sometimes for the energy bump but now you just dont need it. The "press everything that's not on the GCD" mechanic seemed pretentious. Rupture felt like something they added so they could tune the consistent damage of the spec but was mostly just pad and didnt feel like it actually did anything besides make the meters look better

Sub is dance>build CPs>dump them into evisc

Everything else is bloat

[potent pivot]

You could also double symbols with supercharger which felt insane when it landed you a kill

Rupture wasn’t really about pad damage

[outer sky]

You can do that with dance too

[potent pivot]

It was for keeping things in combat

[outer sky]

Cancel aura dance again

[potent pivot]

Yeah but then you “waste” a dance if it doesn’t pan out

[outer sky]

How does rupture keep things in combat

[potent pivot]

It’d stop restealths etc

[outer sky]

I dont even feel it ngl ive done it a ton. Usually for a 3rd cheap shot

I literally never feel dance starved no matter what

[potent pivot]

Yeah that’s kinda horrible

[outer sky]

Because by the time your 2nd dance is over, you'll get a charge back long before you can do another go

[potent pivot]

Too dumbed down

[outer sky]

W/e i like pressing buttons during the game not waiting for shit to light up. If we want to call it dumbed down then thats fine I still prefer it

[potent pivot]

That’s all they’ve done since SL/DF and this is by far the biggest shift

[outer sky]

I have played sub before I know how it felt

Ideally id prefer a revert of the legion redesign

But thats not happening

So ill take whatever gets the most uptime on shadow dance

Dumbed down or not

[potent pivot]

https://tenor.com/view/the-office-michael-scott-i-hate-it-i-dont-like-it-hate-it-gif-20134478

[severe helm]

yes that was fair

[gleaming sentinel]

Same.

[severe helm]

I think people find it hard to identify whether theyre having fun cuz somethings broken or if theyre having fun cuz somethings well designed

[outer sky]

Trying to convince me that a single use of disarm should ever be as impactful as it was on a rogues shadow dance will most certainly be a waste of your time

[potent pivot]

that isn't the issue

[severe helm]

yeah I wouldnt expect you to feel that way

I think counterplay needs to exist

I think the new version of sub is a little too forgiving

[outer sky]

Maybe, but the old version was too unforgiving. Given the choice ill take the forgiving version

[severe helm]

and they stripped out a lot of nuance

[outer sky]

Did that to a lot of classes

[severe helm]

doesnt make it not true haha

[potent pivot]

i think most long time sub players preferred it because of how high the skill ceiling was

[severe helm]

yeah the new version of sub is so foolproof haha

[potent pivot]

look at Dust sub, one of the sickest iterations to ever exist imo

[severe helm]

dust was awesome

on outlaw too

[potent pivot]

they've lowered the skill ceiling like 10x now

if you enjoy that, cool

i do not

[severe helm]

yeah its very sad =/

I wish they could have found a happy middle ground

[potent pivot]

i like thinking ahead in games and playing methodically, not just spamming buttons for the sake of it

[severe helm]

The other issue when a spec is this easy is you dont have opportunities to play above your "tuning"

[potent pivot]

ye

[severe helm]

like even when outlaw/sub were horrible specs that did bad damage, good players could excel on them

[outer sky]

With old sub the juice just wasnt worth the squeeze unless the damage was massively overtuned

[severe helm]

or unless you were very good

[potent pivot]

but thats because you could just play assa brainlessly and do well in shuffle/arena

[severe helm]

now all specs are assa lol

[potent pivot]

so most people just gravitated towards assa

sub/outlaw mains always did fine sticking with them

[outer sky]

Idk i dont think "easily counterable by anyone with at least a double digit IQ" means "skillful" I think it just means badly designed and some people like Nahj would play it just to say they did

[potent pivot]

idk i think thats omega cope

[severe helm]

I mean if you think countering sub was that easy then idk what to tell you

[outer sky]

Theres a ton of ego tied up in the spec. Its the surv hunter and arcane mage of rogue specs

[severe helm]

beating a good sub was just as hard as playing sub

(depending on what spec you are)

some specs do counter sub with less effort

[severe helm]

you mean the high skill expression specs?

[outer sky]

People play them when theyre not good becauss they think you needed a PhD to play it right and that ego boost of saying they could do it was worth more to them than anything else

Now they cant do that anymore and theyre malding

[severe helm]

I think is a misinterpretation of what a high skill ceiling spec is

[potent pivot]

or they just enjoy playing something that isn't piss easy

[severe helm]

they arent playing it to circle jerk theyre playing it cuz they are good players and they can make use of the tools of the spec

[outer sky]

Would almost certainly be better off playing a different spec

[severe helm]

better off rating wise or

[outer sky]

But that isnt pretentious enough

[potent pivot]

brother its a game

[severe helm]

I mean if you want all specs to be easy so you can fotm reroll to whatever is the strongest one any given season thats fine

[potent pivot]

people play what is fun to them

[severe helm]

but having some specs in the game be difficult and have high skill expression is healthy for the game

some people dont want to take the low road

[outer sky]

For a lot of people with no life this game is their literal identity. They play whatever gives them the version of themself they want to project

[severe helm]

I think youre reading way too far into it

[potent pivot]

yep

[severe helm]

some specs are harder, some people like playing hard specs, thats it

it doenst have to be about ego but it does sound like somehow them being able to play those specs and you not is hurting yours lol

[potent pivot]

look at kalvish for example, sub could be the worst melee in the game and he'd still easily get r1 on it

[outer sky]

Going to make a cup of coffee while you wait for globals to light up because the healer disarmed your dance from across the map and now youre useless for a minute may be "high skill" but its still piss gameplay

[severe helm]

L2 cross cc

[outer sky]

He could do that with any spec

[severe helm]

nah

there are some specs with low ceilings that you really cant overcome their tuning

[outer sky]

If you dont get perfect cross CC every go then you cant do anything. Thank god thats gone

[severe helm]

its genuinely easier to play a spec thats weaker on average but higher skill ceiling for him

which is why he plays rogue and mage

[severe helm]

welcome to wow?

thats how the game works

[outer sky]

Not anymore 🤣

[severe helm]

yes which is what were saying is unfortunate lol

[outer sky]

Then write to blizzard

[severe helm]

funny to watch people self report lol

[potent pivot]

no offense, you a homie, but you main warrior right?

[severe helm]

you know theres a problem when the warriors are saying sub is fun now

[outer sky]

Idk, the point is, most specs dont need perfect cross CC to not be totally negated from the game, and now sub doesnt either. If that makes try hards feel less superior then they need to schedule a talk with a licensed therapist

[potent pivot]

you miss the point entirely

and your argument is this 1 point

[sterile field]

sub gameplay is trash

[potent pivot]

that 1 gripe you keep bringing up could've been changed without removing the entire skill ceiling of the spec

...

[severe helm]

it makes good players sad cuz theres less ability to express your skill in a competitive pvp game

if thats hard to understand idk what to tell you

[outer sky]

But it wasnt. Maybe some hypothetical 3rd version of sub that doesnt exist would be better but if this version solves my "gripe" then I'll take it over the old version

[severe helm]

but also there are plenty of specs out there that are easy to play

[potent pivot]

it just makes it feel like a bad faith argument

[severe helm]

they could have left a couple that had good skill expression

sub was kind of iconic for its skill expression

we dont need another bm hunter or ret

[outer sky]

Idk maybe try a different game

[severe helm]

why

[outer sky]

Can always unsub

[potent pivot]

[severe helm]

I cant express discontent with the game Ive played for so long?

[outer sky]

Because this one no longer lets you flex your superior methodical skillset of course

Your talents are wasted

[severe helm]

yeah ive been playing deadlock

ngl

[outer sky]

Mewo also plays warrior hes mad he cant shut down the rogue with 1 disarm

[severe helm]

nah theyve made it a lot more forigiving on your cds so you dont have to focus as much on setup and precise goes to force defensives

[severe helm]

I dont even play sub im just defending the concept

[outer sky]

I know you dont

[severe helm]

mainly outlaw and spriest

[verbal field]

til now I saw couple of sub rogues in pve with ilvl of 159-162 and most of them were at the bottom of the dps so i think theres still at least some skill expression

[severe helm]

the floor of being bad is always infinitely low

[potent pivot]

pve

[severe helm]

but ofc theres still some skill expression left

[outer sky]

It just sounds like youre mistaking "easily counterable" with "skillful". You can still do all the same set ups you could do before

[severe helm]

its just less

[outer sky]

None of that has changed

[dark moon]

goddamn i feel disgusted

[severe helm]

yeah but if someone can accomplish the same with less effort then that is by defintion less skill expression

[verbal field]

in pvp completely different?

[severe helm]

very

[potent pivot]

skill expression wise? yea very

[severe helm]

wow pvp and pve are arguably different games

the specs play differently entirely

[outer sky]

Why choose to be counterable when you could just not be? Does it boost your ego?

[severe helm]

I mean they could also make the spec just invulnerable and always 1 shot in blades

that could be cool too I guess

you know what youre right

why not just make sub ignore stun dr

no more counters

that would be more fun right?

[potent pivot]

everything in a pvp game should be counterable in some way especially if you aren't playing well

[outer sky]

This is just a strawman

[severe helm]

why not just be able to stun someone 100-0

that woudl be more fun right

if they couldnt counter you

and had no opportunity to beat you

by playing better

that would be sick

[outer sky]

It is counterable just not by scripting a CC on dance because you didnt get perfect cross CC. Thats too much

[severe helm]

you know I think its just bad design if the enemy has an ability to outplay you

I think thats stupid and unfun

[outer sky]

I think you need a nap buddy

[severe helm]

specs that can lose to someone who outplays you are bad specs and I dont like them

now that I am no longer losing to mistakes I have recognized but havent learned to play around, I am having more fun and the spec is better

🙂

[outer sky]

Yeah these blizzcon champs outplaying us by pressing disarm on dance a low rated player would never think to do that

[severe helm]

yeah honestly it was so easy to beat kalvish before

I just disarm him in dance

literally never lose

[outer sky]

Balancing the game around kalvish will kill it faster than anything blizzard has considered doing

[severe helm]

yeah all specs should just be uncounterable

[outer sky]

Okay im not going to waste my time with these strawmans

[severe helm]

and we just go into the arena and mash buttons

[outer sky]

Write to blizzard

[severe helm]

winner take all

[outer sky]

Whine on the forums

[severe helm]

im immune to disarm cant get me

got plenty of specs for that

[outer sky]

And now you've got one more

[sharp sierra]

Outlaw is getting real questionable to play the more I que sub

Which is funny because it’s more likely they leave outlaw in its state and nerf sub anyways

Mage season

[outer sky]

There is a reason to play assa or outlaw right now and their damage would need to be completely busted for there to ever be one

They need to fix their CC kit

Its way undertuned for them being rogue specs

[sharp sierra]

Yeah I saw that

I’m gonna keep rocking outlaw for now on prepatch

[outer sky]

Hopefully they'll make it so sub gets a 500% damage taken increase debuff if theyre CCd on dance. That way only extremely advanced players will be able to express their god like skill with it and be successful

[lime oar]

[potent pivot]

why are you so salty

[potent pivot]

like its kinda ridiculous atp

assa otp can't stand differing opinions?

[outer sky]

I strawmanned your side the way mewo strawmanned mine. Dont dish out what you can't take. Sorry

[severe helm]

That would be true actually

You would have to be good to play that version of the spec

You are right

I think you're finally understanding

Proud of you

[outer sky]

Glad we're on the same page 🤣🤣😂

[potent pivot]

idk u just keep acting like its some ego thing

people are allowed to enjoy the game differently than you

[agile kite]

Yes

On some real level, wow PvP should always be a clown show, it’s like smash bros

Vanilla had wow PvP right

No arenas, pve gear works, PvP gear still really good

Insane bullshit

Etc

[outer sky]

I think the "debate" has been made perfectly clear

Thankfully the opinions of those who enjoy this kind of gameplay are no longer being considered

No further arguments

[potent pivot]

......

you sound like a clown rn man idgi

[outer sky]

Would i sound more serious if I said any damage done to a sub rogue should one shot it? Imagine the skill ceiling. Apparently those are the takes worthy of respect 😆 🤣

[severe helm]

Smash bros melee unironically one of the most competitive and high skill ceiling games still played today

[gleaming sentinel]

rrevert restless blades, revert talent tree

[severe helm]

Hilarious you think this makes you look good

[agile kite]

Yeah in hindsight horrible example

[severe helm]

It wouldn't still be played today if it wasn't the case

So arguably it's a great example

[outer sky]

The only hilarity here is watching you malding 😂😂

[severe helm]

It just proves you wrong lol

[agile kite]

Vanilla is played today

Melee really is vanilla

[severe helm]

Yeah pve games are still fun

But vanilla pvp isn't exactly alive and well

[gleaming sentinel]

you dont like av afk to grand marshal?

[severe helm]

Hahaha exactly

It's okay I mean as long as someone is honest with them self and can just say " I like the spec more cuz it's easy now and I didn't like being bad at a hard spec" like that opinion is valid

[agile kite]

That’s me

[severe helm]

Yeah that's totally fair

As long as we're on the same page about the reality of it

[agile kite]

I don’t even think I was that bad at it it’s just always more fun to 1 shot easier

Hitting a tekken combo to kill someone isn’t as fun

[gleaming sentinel]

how do u feel about new outlaw?

[severe helm]

Pretty sad lol in both pve and pvp

Pvp it feels like the spec has no purpose

[gleaming sentinel]

same

[severe helm]

No CDs no control weak defensives

[gleaming sentinel]

tww s1 was peak outlaw fun

for me

[outer sky]

Its okay I mean as long as someone is honest eith them self and can just say "i liked the spec more because I could hard counter everyone besides the top 0.001% playing it with just 1 scripted button" that opinion is valid

[severe helm]

I don't think it was that easy to hard counter do you?

I think it was as hard to counter as it was to play

Required good play from both sides

[outer sky]

I think if you had a really good team in comms and all on the same page it could be hard to counter

[severe helm]

But if The sub had the same

Isn't that kind of the point

The better team wins

I'm not sure I see the argument for why it's good for an easy spec to be strong

Retpocalypse in dragonflight was one of the worst seasons of wow pvp ever for that reason

When the easy spec is good the game kinda just sucks

[outer sky]

You are fundamentally missing my entire point. Im not saying it SHOULDNT be counterable. Im saying that the impact that trivial plays, single buttons, and short CDs would have vs a sub rogue was disproportionate to the effort they took to pull off in the vast majoirty of cases

[agile kite]

That’s why I think so many like MM, pressing double tap before a FAT aimed shot was so fun

[potent pivot]

but you still played assa while evokers and paladins existed

hmm

[outer sky]

Caut every 1 minute doesnt even begin to match the impact of a disarm during dance vs old sub

Or any CC really

Plus not every class can do it

[agile kite]

@severe helm feral is calling to u

[outer sky]

And ive also gone on record saying thats also a problem

[severe helm]

I just disagree with that conclusion, maybe at very low ratings was sub harder to play than it was to counter but I think the crossover for that was like 2200 which isn't really that high

Also I have to reiterate that I think it's healthy for some specs to have their expression only come online at higher ratings

Like skill value doesn't have to be equal across all specs at like 1600

Casters are weaker at low ratings than melee are just inherently due to their design

But that's not something that needs fixing

[outer sky]

You still need set ups to land kills. The damage for sub on pre patch is just overtuned. Thats doing a lot of work.

[severe helm]

That's not even something unique to sub though that's how most specs outside of cleaves play the game

I think subs ease of setup is way too simple now and their options are going to be to make it bad or let it be op

[outer sky]

Setting up has never been unique to sub

[severe helm]

If they had balanced sub poorly and it was weak right now i also think your opinion might be different

If a spec is only fun when it's op then it's not really fun imo

[outer sky]

I wouldnt be thinking "this would be better if only I couldnt play the game for a minute after someone CCs my dance"

Most definitely not

[severe helm]

Well you don't have the option to overcome the spec being bad with skill expression

[outer sky]

What?

Its extremely hard for a spec to be so bad that the best of the best players cant overcome it being undertuned

[severe helm]

or at least less so

[outer sky]

So thats an option for sub like any class

[severe helm]

it happens not infrequently

there are specs where there are 0 r1 titles for it

it doesnt happen to sub rogue

or at least it didnt used to

[outer sky]

But is that because they're actually that bad that its impossible or because they have another spec that's way better

[severe helm]

some of both

there are hard mains

who dont get r1

on their main spec

[outer sky]

Also, how does subs set up change? Lets say right now on pre patch I kidney the healer and dance then the WW monk disarms me. I still cant cheap shot. And by the time I can ive wasted my entire stun on the healer

[severe helm]

I mean if you want sub to be like that then thats fine I just think thats the death of what was previously a very unique and special part of wows pvp

[severe helm]

the setup didnt change but how punishing it is to fail it has been severely reduced

[outer sky]

Yes, my whole point is that it was previously too punishing

[severe helm]

I mean were just talking in circles, the spec is easier, its more forgiving for making mistakes which means the difference from a good player to a bad player is smaller, some people like when making mistakes is less punishing

there were already many specs like this

[outer sky]

But you still need to get the set up

[severe helm]

now theres one more

[potent pivot]

ye i'm pointing out that you've always complained about getting countered. in a pvp game mode.

[outer sky]

There certainly is

[severe helm]

also by your own point

[potent pivot]

the same is true about when you tried to play outlaw/crackshot

[severe helm]

your go is still stopped just as easily

so was the issue your go getting stopped?

or was the issue not being able to win even when you make a mistake and your go is stopped

[outer sky]

Now I can do another go next set of DRs i dont need to wait a minute for dance to reset because I couldn't farm CDR during it

[severe helm]

yeah so you really just wanted to win more

[outer sky]

CCing one dance shouldn't negate the next 2 or 3 goes

[severe helm]

it never did

it only ever stopped 1 go

[outer sky]

It delayed the next 2

[severe helm]

sub has done a go on every dr reset

for like the past 3 xpacs

[outer sky]

If you dont have a dance you cant really do a go

So no longer does 1 CC on 1 dance have you sitting on your hands for a minute

And its better that way

[severe helm]

but yeah again theres really nothing else to clarify, you like that the spec is easier and more forgiving for mistakes

and I think its sad that the spec is easier and has less skill expression

I thought the game had enough specs that were easy and forgiving

I didnt think we needed another

when subs not overtuned you'll prob just quit the spec anyway

[outer sky]

I dont like hard counters. Ive also complained before that pet sac was too hard of a counter to fire mages, even though i dont play fire mage.

Thankfully they changed pet sac

[outer sky]

I always play the best rogue spec

[severe helm]

yeah just more depth of the game gone I guess

[outer sky]

Guess so 😢

[severe helm]

same focus on the game

game hasnt gotten more complex

just lost class depth

I mean everyojnes focusing at max

but yeah on an easier class you can focus more on the meta parts of the game

but those options were already there

now you have less options for playing a spec where you get to focus on both

[sharp sierra]

I played ice climbers religiously at tourneys

I was a very hated person

[outer sky]

Maybe one day blizzard will put the game back to how it was before where they rewarded deep mastery your class such as watching a mage catch on fire and pressing your pet sac keybind without thinking about it

[severe helm]

lol deserved

[sharp sierra]

Idk why I just loved the mechanics of it

[severe helm]

I didnt go to many tourneys but they always had banned wobbling

[sharp sierra]

Yeah the f-tilts went crazy

[severe helm]

yeah thats gone now fire mage auto wins against hunter since they fixed it

[outer sky]

If they needed that button to win then they deserved to always lose

[severe helm]

oh here I think I dropped this "/s"

[molten hedge]

It does feel like with dance how it is, it doesn’t really matter how it’s tuned if your caster can do big dam right

[severe helm]

yeah theres a good chance sub is just broken period due to how much cc it has

arguably even more problematic

[molten hedge]

True

[dark moon]

goddamn this is disgusting 😄

[outer sky]

Imagine if duel was still a thing lol

When sub was busted in early S1 of SL a friend of mine and I got 2.4 in 2s just taking turns with duel. One of us duels for trinket, the other dueled to kill

It was some of the most fun ive ever had in this game

There was a time when if you only played 1 charge of shadow dance you would get a big damage boost

And you could kill through defensives

I think i have a clip

@ornate quiver

https://www.twitch.tv/mmarkers/clip/AmericanBreakablePineappleImGlitch-eMq78BonGrRbbmo5

Thats me playing the 1 dance build

It was great. Notice I still had a couple seconds left of my stun and duel too. Markers literally full hotted him, gave him cen ward, and flourished and ot just doesnt matter

I got so many rage whispers. Like if you got an Hpriest to trinket you could kill them through guardian. So you kidney them, they Guardian, it procs when they hit 0hp and restores them to 40% and then you still do the other 40% in the kidney

One time i killed a disc priest 100-0 through pain sup

And he pain sup'd at like 90%

Absolutely glorious

[lime oar]

but you still like the current sub iteration

look what they did to our boy

https://tenor.com/view/they-took-everything-from-me-britney-thedopeboys-omni-they-took-all-of-my-things-gif-24829043

[outer sky]

I was referring to the less button bloat and more uptime on dance. Its very rare that sub could do what im doing in that clip. But if you want to give me duel back and enough damage to kill 100-0 in a kidney through major defensives then yes I will take that over current sub because that iteration of sub is 🔥 💯

[lime oar]

dust gone, duel gone, vanish nerfed. we’re lucky we still have bomb

[outer sky]

If they get rid of bomb that may actually make me reroll

[outer sky]

@ornate quiver heres another from that same day. Bro is so sure hes gunna win LOL

https://www.twitch.tv/mmarkers/clip/RichFantasticMochaFutureMan-q6xitMxi3QiA2Kg5

"He's got nothing left!"

The good 'ol days

[brisk ferry]

YO

thoughts on outlaw builds

i do not play rogue i know and understand nothing i just want to put talent points in that arent terrible

[outer sky]

@spring bough @vocal surge

[molten hedge]

There’s probably also a build in pins

Do you like to play the piano

[brisk ferry]

there is not a build in pins ty though

as far as i can tell

[brisk ferry]

i dont play the piano

[outer sky]

No outlaw build in pins 😞

[vocal surge]

CQQA6i6ki8tqEZF+5XBKpc8wuCgZ2mBjZYmtZmZmZ8AmtNjZmtptBbzAAAAAAstMzMYmZmZMzMGAAAAGDAmthxMjmZ2wGLmwCDwMzMDA

was cookin

airfried Chicken n beef flavored rice

[brisk ferry]

thanks blawg

[vocal surge]

yw

[outer sky]

Nope ive just been dealing with it

[potent pivot]

Try the better sarena

[molten hedge]

Do Ik you from somewhere

[potent pivot]

sarena 2 by sammers

Lol if he took it down because of mvqs bitching that’s insane

[molten hedge]

there were a lot of ppl in body's disc complaining ab sammers after he "stole" it

[potent pivot]

“stole” is a big leap though tbf

[molten hedge]

yea i think what bothered him (im just the messenger) was that he took it and didnt change anything supposedly

but it sounds like that may not be true

if you say sammers is better

[potent pivot]

I think when sammers decided to continue it he got some of the features body had worked on

[molten hedge]

are we talking about sarena reloaded or sarena

[potent pivot]

But the thing is that sarena has been passed around and continued by so many people, none of it is “owned” to be “stolen”

[potent pivot]

The true original sarena is discontinued

There’s sarena reloaded (which afaik body just started fucking with which took all of sammers old work too)

Then there’s sarena 2 by sammers

[molten hedge]

right sammers made sarena by sammers. but i thought this whole drama was bc sammers took his sarena reloaded and copy/pasted it

[potent pivot]

Afaik he took whatever body added to it

But it was all added into the sArena project anyway

Like everyone that’s ever worked on it, it’s all under the same thing at the end of the day

[molten hedge]

oh ok so its kinda pretentious to act like its yours

[potent pivot]

Like body continued from sammers work when sammers wasn’t going to update it

[molten hedge]

i see

[potent pivot]

Then sammers decided to update it ig

[potent pivot]

Ye afaik none of it truly “belongs” to them, they’ve just added forks to the original project

[molten hedge]

damn i see

[potent pivot]

Just because you made additions, doesn’t mean you can call it or even those additions “yours”

[molten hedge]

side question. isnt it weird how sub's mastery wants you to play mastery, but the rework wants you to play haste. is that good bc u can play both or bad bc it doesnt lean fully into one or the other

[potent pivot]

After the rework finishers aren’t that crazy anyway

Strike does a large portion of your damage

[molten hedge]

so you genuinely just think builders will be most of our dam in midnight if it launches how it is

[potent pivot]

So running a mix of crit/haste/mast/vers is looking healthy

[potent pivot]

Idk about most, but a better portion than before for sure

[molten hedge]

is only the initial shadowstrike from stealth the one that gives 25% more dam? like if u stun someone and go behind them it wont do more damage like backstab does rigth

[potent pivot]

You also get nice globals of dmg out of cheap/strike

You also get 20% crit dmg from trickster iirc

So crit pretty juice

[molten hedge]

ik DS has that crit dam

but i think Trickster also has some strike modifier

or tech maybe

[potent pivot]

It has just a raw +20% crit damage unless I’m thinking of something else

I think I’m thinking of something else nvm

Ye deathstalker

[molten hedge]

lmaooo

[potent pivot]

Idk why I 100% thought that was on trick

Fk

[potent pivot]

Yeh

[manic saddle]

What do I do with the build codes in the pinned message?

[sharp sierra]

All of the "pasted code" mvq spent crying about twitter is dumb. None of them reinvented the wheel

Claiming an entire code base as your own is pasting. Claiming your code for "pixel scaling" got pasted is just braindead

[potent pivot]

If you open your talent window in game there’s a drop down menu where you can import them

[molten hedge]

why is timewalking so miserable? i thought itwas usually quick but now it seems like every boss is a raid boss lol

[quick crypt]

What timewalking is active btw pls?

[keen canopy]

Shadowlands

[stoic spruce]

No there's not

[potent pivot]

Huhh

[stoic spruce]

Nuhuh

[wise sequoia]

Ehhh

[stoic spruce]

Fake, fabricated, and a lie

[wise sequoia]

Dang you caught me. Guess I wasnt rogue enough

[stoic spruce]

[severe helm]

Pop taking Ls in every channel today damn

[stoic spruce]

Mewo following me

What could this occasion be?

[severe helm]

I have low hopes for pve so Im trying to follow pvp but its not giving me much hope either

[quick crypt]

I would love to redesign few icons so they fit my personal fantasy slightly better. Which spell icon would you choose to change for a White Monster energy drink icon? Thistle Tea, Crimson Vial or Adrenaline Rush? 😄

[stoic spruce]

Tea

Already a dream I had

[quick crypt]

Ye that’s what I will choose probably

[candid tide]

bruhh fk man am i going to play Midnight

[stoic spruce]

Hmmmmm

This is a thinker

Yes?

[outer sky]

At this point for me, playing this game is as much of a habit as it is a hobby. Its like how I wake up every morning and take an ice cold shower. Its just something I do. In the same vein, when I get home from work I log into wow.

[dark moon]

Do you take ice cold showers all year long? I cant get used to taking them in the winter

[lime oar]

fuhh all that shit i’m taking a hot shower everytime

[outer sky]

Yep

[untold hare]

yo guys , i wanna see some talents builds for prepatch where i find that ? is murlok updated ?

[outer sky]

Theres assa and sub builds in the pins

[untold hare]

ty , but if i wanna check other classes also is there any website u recommend for prepatch ?

[outer sky]

Yeah murlok is updated

[dark moon]

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn

ye i know that, but im okay with them from spring to late summer, and when temperatures drop im all for the hot showers

guess i have to give it another go

[potent pivot]

you just have to keep in mind when looking at murlok that prolly more than half of the people aren't actively playing rn

lot of random stuff

[dark kernel]

I don't know what to do with myself til Midnight

Do I dive in and enjoy the TBC wave for a bit

Or play backlog

[lone jasper]

Ive started diablo IV 🤦‍♂️

[dark kernel]

I already started that too but I get burnt out in the late game.

[gleaming sentinel]

anyone make an addon that shows a timer for abilities on cd?

[lone jasper]

Im having fun yet 😂

[potent pivot]

like for your own CDs?

[wise sequoia]

Cyberpunk 2077? Expedition 33?

[potent pivot]

there's loads of addons for reskinning the cooldown manager @gleaming sentinel

[gleaming sentinel]

yea

i can live without the old addons, but i like seeing how long i left on stuff

oh theres an option in the blizz thing

LOL

[potent pivot]

you should be able to just do it

yeah

lol

[gleaming sentinel]

i took a break, rofl

[potent pivot]

there's some newer addons that look similar to the old WA huds

[gleaming sentinel]

i'll go natty for a bit and see what i need later

[gleaming sentinel]

i'll have to look into something that lets me put rtb and bladeflurry somewhere easier to see and i think im good

[dark kernel]

Ooo I do have cyberpunk

[dark moon]

im playing my devourer dh and im having fun cause it pew pews, but the best is to take time off wow until midnight

im just too bored to play other games

[gleaming sentinel]

I just been doing achieves and farting around. I did a couple timewalking dungeons and happy that outlaw feels nice in pve

[dark moon]

ye its nice in raid and m+

[wise sequoia]

Both deepening shadows and the first dance are listed on wowhead as having no PvP modifiers ... but the first dance turns from 6sec outside combat for 3 sec -> 10sec outside combat for 2 sec.

How does deepening shadows work in pvp?

Currently hitting a pvp dummy with +11.52% haste ... I would expect that to lengthen my 6s shadow dance by:
0.1152 x 1.5 x 6sec = 1.04sec ... but it only gives 0.93sec
For 8.86% haste I get:
0.0886 x 1.5 x 6sec = 0.80sec ... but it only gives 0.71sec
For 1.29% haste I get:
0.0129 x 1.5 x 6sec = 0.12sec ... but it only gives 0.10sec

Not sure.

Maybe just go for 10% more haste, if the calculation is a bit wonky?

In that case you need:
2.44% haste to reach 6.2sec -> 1 more global
14.67% haste to reach 7.2sec -> 2 more globals
26.89% haste to reach 8.2sec -> 3 more globals
39.11% haste to reach 9.2sec -> 4 more globals

Maybe you can reach a safe threshold with a bit less haste, but this seems approximately right.

[wise sequoia]

With perfect 289ilvl gear we will have around 2361 secondary stats (without gems/enchants).

If we go 50% haste that gets us to just about the 3rd breakpoint of 26.83% haste, but that seems a bit scuffed. Prolly better to just aim for 14.67%ish haste and throw the rest into verse/mastery. Thats only 645 haste or a bit more than a quarter of our secondary stats.

[lime oar]

mastery gang

i do it for the love of the game i do not need min max stats

[wise sequoia]

Yeah ... you can either have 1 more global during shadow dance or have all your finishers do >50% increased damage.

Choose wisely 😛

[outer sky]

Yeah the haste build on sub seems super underwhelming compared to the mastery build

[molten hedge]

Yeah it took me a sec to figure that out. Bc I used omnicc and ig I turned it off

[unique garnet]

Is it just me or does outlaw in pvp feel really weird

[wise sequoia]

What better to spend the apex talent finisher copy on? Darkest night, Coupe de grace or Secret technieque?

[potent pivot]

…..?

[wise sequoia]

To get that 7.2s shadowdance you need to invest about 1/4 of all your stats into haste. If you instead put those stats into mastery, your finishers will do about 50% more damage.

[potent pivot]

The scaling is not the same on prepatch as it is in beta. Not even worth looking at at this point

[dark moon]

Max im doing is 2 more globals, mastery gang

[wise sequoia]

?
This is based of beta:
2361 secondary stats with perfect 289 gear no gems/enchants.
Haste is 44 stats -> 1% haste

[potent pivot]

Sounds like you’re doing something wrong then

I can say for sure we will be running some form of haste in midnight

[wise sequoia]

Why?
a couple % is unavoidable from set, which is enough to get 6 gloabals in shadowdance.
Beyond that its just energy regen and attack speed untill that 14.67% threshold which is a qarter of your total max stats (590).

[sharp sierra]

Thankfully OW update next week with rank reset so I’ll have some time to have fun again since rivals is getting absolutely boring

[dark kernel]

Yeah I believe it. I can't play either of those games haha

[potent pivot]

Secret technique CDR, dance duration, and do you know how strong attack speed is in midnight?

[lime oar]

don’t care i want finisher go boom

💥

[potent pivot]

Too bad

Finishers do not go boom anymore

They’ve pushed way more into builder damage now

[wise sequoia]

No clue what auto attacks do 😛
But 2s shorter CD on secret technique doesn't seem as impactful as 50% increased finisher damage.
And have 6.2s shadowdance is just as good as 7s shadow dance ... still only 6 globals.
But more auto attacks = more shadow techniques which is nice... but... 50% more finisher damage?!

[potent pivot]

Finishers are piss now

Get it through your heads early

[vale steppe]

I love Haste, feels much better honestly

[potent pivot]

Shadow techniques

[wise sequoia]

Back to classic where 50% of dps is auto attacks ^^

[potent pivot]

Every r1 I’ve talked to that’s played a lot of beta says it feels better so far

Haste also went from being worth literal zero in pve to being more important than any other stat

Pvp is different but we always take context clues like this into account

Ye but sub gets a lot of value from theirs that isn’t just raw damage as well, compared to the other specs

[dark moon]

So if autoattack dmg is important we need to have higher uptime on targets

[subtle warren]

Is there a minimum number of combo points where you don't want to Evis/Secret tech? is it 6?

• do you generally only want to use secret tech during shadow dance? cause you're probably bursting?

[dark kernel]

For secret tech and as sub you will always use max. And yes always during dance for the damage %

[potent pivot]

Max -1 is the general rule of thumb ye

[gleaming sentinel]

That short blind is kinda sick tbh

[spring bough]

It’s the new movement

16s cooldown with trickster so ridiculous lol

[outer sky]

What do you do with it though? Like when I play short blind i find myself mostly using it to apply Blackjack since the CC itself is too short to do anything meaningful during it. I mean its 3s and 1s is the GCD of blind so you have 2s to actually do something during the CC

[spring bough]

I literally press it every time it’s off CD 😭

Sometimes try to line it before a stun or with an interrupt

[outer sky]

Im just trying to think like, its really only better than gouge for 2 reasons. It applies blackjack and its 15 yards range not melee

But gouge is a 1s longer CC

One thing I really like gouge for is to use it as a pseudo stun on the kill target

[molten hedge]

You can also gouge from stealth and get premed which is kinda sick

Gouge kidney nice

[outer sky]

Usually you can get another damage global before the gouge breaks

[molten hedge]

Same thing as what ur saying basically

[outer sky]

Ye

[molten hedge]

But like strike kidney sometimes is enough time to get peeled

[outer sky]

Yeah they fear you or some shit

[molten hedge]

Whaazz did tell me before sometimes he likes opening and getting peeled so he’s on DR

But that was shuffle last ssn

[outer sky]

Yeah thats true for a sub rogue. Let them CC you out of stealth so you're on DR when you dance

[molten hedge]

I’m considering going to 123 for most of my cc. I played a lot of casters and 123 feels much better than focus for some weird reason

I’m horrible at using focus binds

[outer sky]

Bro lol so I used to use an addon called Dynamic Macros for all of my macros and now that addon is gone so ive legit just been tab targeting everything because im too lazy to make new ones

Im considering 123 as well but the problem is they dont work in BGs or PVE

[molten hedge]

I had dynamic macros for stuff like tricks and PI

You can make 123s work but u may need a diff mod

[dark kernel]

You literally use it to counter goes, or use it every kidney to try to Kidney+blind+sap

[hybrid sapphire]

new icon is SICK pog

is there a way to make combo points way more apparent than this? i had my own custom weakaura but its killed i tihnk

[potent pivot]

Yea

Multiple ways

[hybrid sapphire]

how? mine used to be huge dead center and changed color depending on the # :(((((

[potent pivot]

You can have that same thing

There’s a command for ui stuff in the pve channels

[hybrid sapphire]

wait... TMW still works... omg i might be saved

ty @potent pivot

[potent pivot]

Look for the thing Awang made

We have it linked in the spec channels

[potent pivot]

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/wangbar-resource-bars

[potent pivot]

Abuse it while you can

[outer sky]

You expect a nerf?

[potent pivot]

Yes lol

[outer sky]

When i first tried it I thought it was super broken for the kidney>blind>sap interaction but as I started doing that more and more i realized a lot of the time something would keep the healer in combat somehow still and I cant get the sap and im basically removed from the game myself while im trying to do it every 30s so idk maybe it is fair if you give up gouge and 40% of blinds duration for it

Cuz like I really feel not having gouge

[molten hedge]

It’s really nice with rmp setting them up for a poly with no DB available

[outer sky]

True thats a use case. But if youre playing with a lock or boomie youre just burning their fear/clone dr

So maybe not worth idk

Although I could see it being useful to blackjack enemy dps goes

[molten hedge]

Yeah agreed

I played with a destro and kinda rotated howl and blind into a tsg bc he’s not gonna get a ton of fears. And blackjack on their CDs did feel nice

But against every other comp as sub destro yea played gouge a lot. It’s nice to have the option tho

[hybrid sapphire]

these new plates blow omgg

[molten hedge]

Get platynator or BBP man

[hybrid sapphire]

i haven't played in like... 2 weeks everything feels brand new. my poor bartender

[potent pivot]

With the amount of cheap/blind/etc access sub has I don’t see it staying this way

You can more than easily keep someone locked down for over like 35% of the time of an arena

I don’t think the short blind duration is even intended/correct tbf though

[outer sky]

The gap between sub and the other rogue specs CC kits is kind of gross

[potent pivot]

I’m pretty sure they just goofed and the blind is supposed to be 1 sec

[outer sky]

Someone would have had to intentionally add the pvp modifier to it though, no?

[potent pivot]

There is a pvp modifier

[outer sky]

Yes, im saying how does that happen on accident

[potent pivot]

I think they just put it on the wrong hook so it’s modifying the wrong thing

It’s modifying the 80% reduction instead of the blind itself

[outer sky]

So you think its supposed to be a 40% reduced CD and 80% reduced duration?

[molten hedge]

Making a 2 min cd making it over a minute for a 1 sec cc seems fried asf

[potent pivot]

Naw

[outer sky]

The only reason to do it would be because they specifically dont want you using it in pvp

[potent pivot]

It just doesn’t make much sense to give us such a low cd blind for only -40%

[outer sky]

Idk blizzard has made some pretty crazy balancing decisions

Ret pally off heals in SL s1

I quit over that

[waxen meteor]

why do i feel the game a bit boring after prepatch

[potent pivot]

It’s prepatch

[hybrid sapphire]

uhhh this crimson tempest change is kinda sick?????

[potent pivot]

It’s meant to be boring

[potent pivot]

It’s doggy doodoo fym

[hybrid sapphire]

i just got here lemme figure it out 🙁

[potent pivot]

It costs too much energy to be worth using in pvp rn

[hybrid sapphire]

LMAO 60 ENERGY wait i didnt see that shit

[potent pivot]

Assa prepatch is kinda bleak just so you know

[hybrid sapphire]

im doing the prepatch

it's ok i've been bleaker

[potent pivot]

[molten hedge]

Bro

[outer sky]

It also copies to pets n shit

[molten hedge]

U press every button and do 10% of someone’s hp

Wdym

[potent pivot]

[wise sequoia]

for me the trickster talent only cuts it from 24s -> 22s?

Still insane interaction! 3s ranged pseudo stun on almost 20s cd, which leaves a 6s 30% damage debuff! Just drop it on CD and someone will be useless 1/3 of the game xD

[molten hedge]

Did AI type that

[potent pivot]

Yes

[outer sky]

Hes playing outlaw. They have another talent to reduce blind CD on their spec tree

[potent pivot]

He is outlaw

[wise sequoia]

ohh nice

lol thats grand xD

[potent pivot]

[wise sequoia]

Can you disspell blackjack?

[outer sky]

No

[wise sequoia]

dang thats toxic.

[outer sky]

And remember it stacks with your MS too

Because the MS is less healing received

Blackjack is less healing done

[severe helm]

yeah but blackjack doesnt do much on the kill target if they arent a healer

[wise sequoia]

100% less damage/healing done for 3s -> 30% less damage/healing done for 6s -> 7s of normal damage/healing -> repeat.
No way thats intended!

[severe helm]

I mean it was like this before

blackjack also procs off sap

[outer sky]

Yeah so if you have full stacks of wound on the KT and Blackjack on the healer thats functionally a 55% MS

[severe helm]

yeah same as before haha

its not like it was buffed

healer still tops someone right as they come out of a blind

[outer sky]

Sure but you couldn't do it every ~20s

[severe helm]

you arent killing through cds either way, have to think from the perspective of win condition

blackjack seems good on paper

and if you dont ever have a big blind

for when you have a win condition

[hybrid sapphire]

theres noooo way that the whole prepatch event is just portals in twilight highlansd.... IJBOL

[severe helm]

I think its gona be weaker

[wise sequoia]

but, like ... it literally reduces the output of a single enemy by 50% ... by just pressing a single button every 16s ... no counter.
Even if it doesn't secure a kill, just use it on whoever does the most damage.

[outer sky]

But it might force the use of a CD when one wouldn't otherwise be necessary

[severe helm]

thats kinda what im not sure of, are you using it outside of your go like randomly?

or are you unable to force cds during your go without it

in terms of when you have offensive cds it just doesnt seem that beneficial to apply blackjack every 20s when you dont have damage for it anyway

maybe if youre playing some rundown comp

[molten hedge]

It’s 30% not 50%