Rogue is so poorly designed rn
#pvp
stoic spruce
waxen meteor
Sub NE is probably worse than human/orc
stoic spruce
Outlaw/assa need vanish more than sub
waxen meteor
Orc is damn annoying target for sub
noble venture
Back when marked for death kidney was a thing.. It was not so bad
waxen meteor
you essentially need to change your muscle memory going against orc
I don't know how people handle that
noble venture
Feels so bad to essentially give up globals to restun
waxen meteor
Totally
waxen meteor
but it's way much better than WLK lol
WLK you get orc + gem pff
kidney is like 3 sec
noble venture
wtf hahahah
waxen meteor
Yeah some of the guys like duel, just straight to with that
stoic spruce
Orc is also nerfed btw
stoic spruce
So that's cool it's like that
Before blizz would be so aggressive with chat bans and stuff
I'd whisper orcs and shit talk
Back in SL
The horde nelf
I'm a different person now
waxen meteor
Night Bourn should be haha
stoic spruce
Lol yeah
waxen meteor
Their current racial is not really useful
stoic spruce
I'd say things like "that orc racial won't carry you to 1600"
waxen meteor
My mage is with that, but racial skill is not even in my keybind
noble venture
I'd say things like "that orc racial won't carry you to 1600"
Joey Wheeler before he became a protagonist
Or insert any other shonen character trope
stoic spruce
Crazy how people buy a race change to play the best race when they're hardstuck 1800 in shuffle
But let em do it I guess
Makes killing nelves more satisfying
noble venture
Crazy how people buy a race change to play the best race when they're hardstuck ...
Why buy race changes when you can start a rogue ranch
stoic spruce
Because I'd have 4 undead outlaw rogues lol
stoic spruce
Only reason I'm not playing ret is they can't be undead yet
I have one but I play it every now and then
spring bough
Is there someone that does it every season to figure that out lol
stoic spruce
Me
Because I don't like the "you can just go 3-3 to 1800". It sets up the wrong idea into new players.
fresh ermine
does curseforge scan addons?
potent pivot
does curseforge scan addons?
wdym?
fresh ermine
someone told me to get a sketchy addon. and I got it from. curseforge. there's no chance its something bad right
its top target addon lol
potent pivot
addons aren't really 'sketchy'
stoic spruce
No, bad addon maybe but nothing malicious.
potent pivot
top target is kind of a meme
but addons on curse should be ok, thought nothing is impossible
addons have to be submitted and manually reviewed before becoming available on curse
potent pivot
weakauras is where you have to be a bit careful
no one is really screening every weakaura in existence
so people can sneak in stuff that will like
mail them your entire gold stack etc
hasn't happened in a long ass time though afaik
potent pivot
top target is a fucked addon lol
there's a list of popular addons in the pins of this channel
if you're new to using them, the ones listed are used by most ppl that pvp
fresh ermine
I have a good set up. some guy just told me to get top target then he removed me after 3 bad matches lol
potent pivot
i think top target can be okay if you use it minimally
like only have a function to show who your team mate is targeting maybe
but personally i think its just added distraction
gusty hedge
Why buy race changes when you can start a rogue ranch
@stoic spruce 
noble venture
bwahahah nice
green grove
hello im new to rogue and looking to try out outlaw..
whenever i look for resources i can only seem to find pve stuff
is there anyone i can look for in the same vein as mvq for havoc
who has resources and whatnot
potent pivot
whenever i look for resources i can only seem to find pve stuff
Pve stuff is generally fine
As far as doing damage
potent pivot
There’s practically no difference for outlaw yeah
For general resources like talents, gear, etc we just use murlok and other websites
There’s builds in the pins here
And
!stats
lethal roostBOT
These are the recommended stat priorities for each spec in PvP. Please keep in mind that having suboptimal stats on some pieces such as tier set pieces is not the end of the world.
Subtlety: Vers>Mastery>Crit>Haste
Assassination: Vers>Mastery>Crit=/=Haste
Outlaw: Vers>Haste=/=Crit>Mastery
You likely want to stack at least 20% Haste on Outlaw for an extra GCD during ADR/Crackshot windows. Take 'em by Surprise gives you 10% during CS windows, so you only need 10-15% from gear.
green grove
cool thanks
also another thing, i notice that ghostly strike is off gcd, is it troll to just macro it to eyes? or is that not recommended
potent pivot
If you have any questions feel free to ask whatever whenever, someone will answer at some point
potent pivot
also another thing, i notice that ghostly strike is off gcd, is it troll to just...
You can yeah, it’s a bit less optimal but not a big deal
green grove
nice
i figure i want to just make it as easy as possible while learning since rogue is quite different
potent pivot
Yeh
Would def recommend checking out #outlaw-faq and the pins in #outlaw too for any relevant info
green grove
cool will check that out
another general rogue question: do you guys have sap on your regular bars or do you only put it on stealth bar
should i be looking to press it at all outside of the opener or other niche situations
potent pivot
Most people keep their stealth/non stealth bars exactly the same
Except for ambush replacing sinister strike
green grove
i see
potent pivot
should i be looking to press it at all outside of the opener or other niche situ...
Wdym here
green grove
im told that like if the healer sits a full kidney into full blind they will be out of combat and sappable
is that true and/or is that something to look for
potent pivot
It can be a bit finicky
Blind sap used to be something you could pull off pretty reliably, nowadays not so much
Still possible just less reliable
green grove
i see so it would be not ideal to only have sap on the stealth bar
ive never really seen a rogue get a sap off mid game so it never occurred to me
potent pivot
You can use Vanish to get back into subterfuge windows, allowing access to stealth abilities etc
The target just has to drop combat for you to get a sap off
But you’ll constantly be going into subterfuge windows for Crackshot and cheap shots etc
green grove
right
as outlaw do you look to drop combat very often or do you just do it off of vanish?
and meld i guess
potent pivot
Like going for stealth resets? Just vanish for the most part
green grove
ok cool
potent pivot
ok cool
Once you get used to the spec you’ll have pretty high uptime on adrenaline rush and subterfuge etc
Everything on outlaw kinda snowballs through CDR and good uptime
green grove
yea i think it seems fun im looking forward to getting used to it
i main demon hunter, so ive tried other melees and generally hate them except for like surv
and i looked into setting up my rogue and was surprised to see that the outlaw layout doesnt seem that bad to learn
stoic spruce
<@530563212093947914> <:ks:1407878495715070153> <:breadblade:755178601929769090...
10/10 tbh
Nightmare blunt rotation tho
potent pivot
and i looked into setting up my rogue and was surprised to see that the outlaw l...
yeh basically every spec in wow functions based off builder->spender at the end of the day
hard part is just learning the intricacies and stuff like CC
green grove
yea thats fine it is what it is
i just hate warr and i refuse to even make a paladin
potent pivot
stoic spruce
yeh basically every spec in wow functions based off builder->spender at the end ...
My favorite pastime is reducing a spec to the number of rotation buttons and go "look how easy your spec is, it's literally 1223412234"
slender ember
Whats with ppl taking thistle tea over double vanish? is it really better in blitz? Sub specifically
potent pivot
Whats with ppl taking thistle tea over double vanish? is it really better in bli...
wouldn't really think about it specifically in terms of bracket
without thistle tea/vigor you'd be pretty energy starved especially outside of burst windows
vanish just doesn't really do anything for sub damage wise
all it adds to sub is CC access, which you already have plenty of because of Dance
abstract stratus
anyone figure out how to deal with the weird bug from meld cheapshot that prevents you from restealthing until you go in and out of combat again
it only happens if i macro cheapshot directly into a meld macro but meld stealth then cheap acts normal just takes a split second longer
grave basin
Meld doesn't even work for me 70% of the time
keen canopy
saw this comment on a reddit post and i think this is a good idea
stoic spruce
A starter pvp set?
What does that mean
A grade below combatant gear?
Or between honor and combatant
keen canopy
i guess it would be a little below honor
maybe like the crafted gear
but without having to spend gold
outer sky
sometimes this game is fun
worthy tinsel
but without having to spend gold
Entry level gear for newbies does make a good bit of sense.
They probably wouldn't figure out the crafting system, so most likely get into an unrated random>get stomped repeatedly>never do it again. It's a definite issue, and starter gear may help a bit to get them at least thinking about the gear and differences.. Plus transmog, which is the real endgame to hook them with.
keen canopy
yeah i feel like a lot of people every patch go "oh well i do want that elite set but pvp just seems like so much"
dark moon
What feels too much is waiting 30 minutes for a game pop, only to get a shit lobby and wait another 30 to potentially fix rating.
And maybe the socketing part of pvp. You need to either spend 15k gold and 5k honor for a socket and another 5k for a gem, where in pve its instant bought off the AH. For people that only pvp that's not an issue, but for casual pve players that want to get into pvp its just tedious I guess.
keen canopy
yeah that's true but that first one is just a symptom of the fact WoW PvP is the same 300 people on 20 characters
sharp sierra
What feels too much is waiting 30 minutes for a game pop, only to get a shit lob...
Wow needs a mobile notification I missed a 26 minute Que yesterday
That’s a solid 4 hours of Python work
dark moon
Wow needs a mobile notification I missed a 26 minute Que yesterday
I don't know what it needs, but I also missed 28-30 min q pop as i went to the wc fot under a minute.
grave basin
I don't know what it needs, but I also missed 28-30 min q pop as i went to the w...
If you know you're only going away for a few mins then
Just go into follower dungeon
It pauses your queue
And yea 30min queues kills PvP faster than anything else imo
Just super disrespectful of your time
Many of us are just dad gamers with maybe 2hrs max to play a night and half of that being in queue sucks
dark moon
Last week i played shuffle all afternoon and stopped at midnight, got my 2nd rogue from zero to 2. 1k and after the session I checked the arena analytics addon and I had played 11 shuffles.
So I had spent all the time sitting an average of 20+ min queues
keen canopy
well you cant just say it's the 30 minute queues are why nobody plays because there are 30 minute queues because nobody plays
grave basin
Yea unless I dedicate an entire night to just shuffle it doesn't feel rewarding
People do play
They don't play healer
There's tonnes of DPS in the backlog
keen canopy
yeah and idk what they would do to fix it
a healing specific mount wouldn't work because it would just make people hate the game more and eventually stop playing
even if they do play at the start because of the fomo
keen canopy
yeah more would sure but would enough people play it
grave basin
Partly why people don't play healer is cause the MMR system sucks for them
Just inflate it to the moon who gives a fuck
dark moon
They still haven't fixed healer mmr since df. I got my holy priest 1.8 for the elitr set in 6 shuffles that were instant queue. So I spent more time gearing up than playing shuffle to 1.8
grave basin
More healers is better for everyone
Venruki interviewed a "dev" at the end of DF and brought up healer MMR to him
And he looked genuinely puzzled
Like what are you talking about
Blizzard is just incompetent lol
Not at all surprising that interview was not well received on YouTube
dark moon
I think extra rewards for healers are not going to make more people play. It's going 4-2 or 5-1 against other healer and losing mmr/cr that makes people not wanting to play. Also I believe shorter shuffles would be beneficial as if you're stuck in a dog lobby and things are going south, you just want to get out of there asap. Having less rounds of that would be good on the mental too.
grave basin
Yea just inflate their MMR and/or tie it to the whole lobby and not just against the other healer
Also they need to put a cap on how much you can get crit for
dark moon
I genuinely don't know why they thought 6 rounds would be a good idea. Everyone wanted solo q 3s - 1 round go out queue next. Two rounds would be nice - just swap healers and get out.
grave basin
The amount of 50/60/70-0s I've seen this season
Is insane
You need to pre pre CDs or someone dies and calls you a dog
But overall I like the pacing of this season
dark moon
Just nerf black arrow 8 mil crits or 10 mil aimed shots and we should be good
dark moon
Kekw
glass hazel
haha
dark moon
I haven't set foot on it since the sparks quest was once there
sharp sierra
These crates are too good
grave basin
I did sparks quest once there and never again
sharp sierra
2 hrs fully capped alt
grave basin
It's too cramped
dark moon
Then I learned about warcrate farm and yeah, haven't done a single pvp quest kek
grave basin
People just camp the respawn point which is like 20 yards
Idk, every season I play less and less shuf
Class balance is also complete piss this season which feeds into it I guess
dark moon
I am mostly butt hurt cause of the fact that I van play 1 shuffle and hour.
I don't mind dog lobbies, I don't mind one shots, I don't mind ret paladins. I just. Want. To. Play. The. Darn. Game.
grave basin
Yes I love waiting 1hr for a Ret/Ret/hpal/hpal lobby
Df shuffle had crazy variety atleast
After they nerfed DH/assa/feral in s1 and if we ignore .07 Ret patch
dark moon
I was again 1 lobby from 2.4k and got ret and caster lobby went 2-4 then started getting fire mage bm hunter ret pal lobbies where the unchained gladiator mount ret paladin would chase mage in the open space of tolvir arena and just die on second combust or so. And i went down to 2.150 which is fine, but between those losses you just idle for 30 minutes a pop
Ofc runs on mount, doesn't let me sap healer, pure classics
grave basin
On the other hand I dug my ww out of its neg win rate hole and got it up to 2.1 yestd
The bad part is I'm also facing Ret/BM/ fire lobbies
Where the decisive factor is just whether the ret decides to throw
If he presses we win
If he doesn't we lose
Had a fDK/BM/mm lobby yestd night where the rdruid on my team just got solod while i disarmed the dk go and my BM was still in camo
keen canopy
yeah if you fix healer mmr it would solve a major issue in the pvp scene but i dont really think it would get pvp to be as big as it reasonably should be, you would still probably be dealing with bad queue times because even besides mmr a lot of people still don't want to play pvp because of a million other issues they have with it
as in
the pvp playerbase has an issue with the healer mmr
but the other people who don't play pvp have an issue with a million other things
like the complexities of gearing, being matched against people with 500x their pvp experience, how bad unrated pvp is (which is what a lot of people will start with)
and i can keep going for a little bit more but you get the idea
what i'm saying is
healing mmr fix would be great and would definitely add a lot of healers
but it wouldn't really get people into "pvp" as a whole
tldr
remove ret from the game
grave basin
I'm gonna throw a hot take
Loads of reasons on plebbit on why they don't PvP is just massive cope
keen canopy
yeah i know they're just bad
but they don't know they're just bad
keen canopy
i mean sure those are complaints
but what they don't see
is that those complaints are relatively minor
like gearing in pvp is pretty easy especially compared to pve
night vector
yeah if you fix healer mmr it would solve a major issue in the pvp scene but i d...
Adding a incentive to play for random BGs would help bring players in, u can just throw in a seasonal mount/recolor for playing X amount of BGs and ppl would play it
grave basin
Loads of people don't PvP because they simply don't like to lose
keen canopy
yeah that's not a bad idea
grave basin
Even if gear was normalised they'd get shit on regardless
Refuse to improve
Whine about something else
keen canopy
but it should be PLAYING bgs not winning bgs
and if it is winning bgs, then they should remove premades
grave basin
Like the majority of the playerbase are omega casuals that think t11 delves are hard
There's nothing you can do other than give them comp stomp
Where they literally cannot lose
keen canopy
Loads of people don't PvP because they simply don't like to lose
yeah that's true
but if people are willing to wipe on silken court normal mode for 5 hours
then i think they'd be willing to pvp
dark moon
The "add-ons!!" Crowd
That is the most delulu shit I've read from random people and I dont get it. In pve you use twice as much addons and people are not complaining? Why do they complain for pvp?
keen canopy
just circles back to they're more used to PvE than PvP
keen canopy
but people do complain a lot about addons in pve too, to be fair
grave basin
Than an undead rogue planting a flag of ownership on you after completely destroying you
keen canopy
idk i feel a lot better when i go 0-6 in shuffle lobby than when i see the clock tick to the next hour on a raid boss that we started 2 hours ago
but maybe that's just me idk
night vector
Than an undead rogue planting a flag of ownership on you after completely destro...
Solution is that raid bosses should tbag you if you wipe at above 50% hp
dark moon
Game is more complex than it was 20 years ago. Ability tracking addons for dungeons is ty3 standard if you want to climb m+ or even mythic raid, so you have the same in pvp, don't know what all the fuss is about.
grave basin
Solution is that raid bosses should tbag you if you wipe at above 50% hp
Hire this man
keen canopy
Game is more complex than it was 20 years ago. Ability tracking addons for dunge...
yeah that's true but also think that's a problem with the game in general that should be fixed
dark moon
Solution is that raid bosses should tbag you if you wipe at above 50% hp
They removed spit command from the game. This sadly would never happen, hahahha
grave basin
That's not an add-ons problem
keen canopy
it's kind of hard explaining to my friends that
"ok before we start actually playing you should install this app and then these addons from that app"
when in like any other game i just say "alright hit play"
grave basin
That's a design problem of giving every spec 192737 procs and buffs to play around
keen canopy
that's true
grave basin
Add-ons only display information
You still need to press your buttons
And you don't really need any add-ons for arena other than maybe 3
Gladius bigdebuffs and someone sort of buff/debuff tracker
dark moon
yeah that's true but also think that's a problem with the game in general that s...
They are making it simpler in terms of class rotation and identity every expack, so with the addon purge about to happen classes will be 3 buttons tops and you'll have 2 mobs that will cast interruptable abilities in dungeons, so that should fix everything, right? RIGHT?!?
keen canopy
idk as long as you have any cd tracking addon that's about it
bigdebuffs? not a fan ngl but i think im a minority with that opinion
grave basin
So this whole muh add-ons is super duper cope
If they can download an entire suite for pve
They can use gladius
dark moon
Bigdebuffs is my fav addon for pvp. I need to see the CC on targets. That with DR tracker are my number one, can't play without them.
keen canopy
oh yeah dr tracker is pretty important
grave basin
Game is unplayable without bigdebuffs
Especially as a rogue/hunter
Brb magnifying glass to see when my kidney ends on the healer
Amongst the 10292 rows of debuffs
dark moon
SArena combined with sweepyboopywhoopyfuckingdooo addon and bigdebuffs and you're all set
grave basin
The thing is this problem exists in pve too
70% of keys ran are now above +10
So alot of the casuals are just not queuing
Not that +10 is even hard
Just goes to show there's nothing you can do to entice people that don't want to be there in the first place
Unless you give some sort of super duper rare participation reward
dark moon
And maybe, MAYBE, one weakaura for pvp where it says your healer is in cc or makea sounds when they pop something to burst you down adn that's it. Nothing more overwhelming than the entire pve adson suite which takes hours to set up - elviui, weakauras, custom frames, party visibility, dungeon cds, bigwigs etc
Addon barrier for pvp excuse is just not serious as I've seen pve guys settinf addons for hours like they are working on cure for cancer
grave basin
Pvers have some of the worst space ship uis I've ever seen
dark moon
Like its hitting me on the forehead every time i see it
keen canopy
oh yeah i see some PvE player uis and it's like i'm looking at i dont even know what
it's like something i would see in Cyberpunk if my optics got hacked
is the analogy im gonna use
grave basin
But no one makes that excuse for pve
halcyon timber
They are adding their own nameplate stuff at least at the base level. That includes a CC part like big debuffs as well.
grave basin
No one says I don't play +18s because I don't have the right UI
Or atleast I don't see that as an excuse
keen canopy
and i feel like a lot of players queue random bgs as their first pvp experience and then they get ran over by some ashran premade where 2 blood dks walked into the boss room and then 2 v 30'd and killed the boss
halcyon timber
Heh
grave basin
Loads of people queue shuffle for the first time
Become the dog of the lob
0 6
Never queue again
halcyon timber
Gaim bad nyahhh
grave basin
but i would say going 0 6 in shuffle feels a bit better
Nah this is brutal
Like you know everyone thinks you're shit
halcyon timber
Yeah plenty of people just not trading cds or quitting or refusing to heal etc
keen canopy
maybe thats true idk usually when i see somebody go 0 6 im just like "one of those days huh"
grave basin
It's more of there's no learning curve
The learning curve is to start at way too high MMR and just chain lose
Until you reach like 1200
But no one new is gonna do that
In PVE you go from +2 to +4 etc or normal to heroic
halcyon timber
Well permanent comp stomp will help the new guys a bit
grave basin
In PvP you just start out in Bgs that don't prepare you for arena at all
You play yolo 2s maybe
That gets old quick then you play 1 shuffle, don't trade and explode
And /afk
keen canopy
well it's like playing tf2 for the first time if you've ever played that game
sometimes you queue your first game and you get placed against jimmybigballs89 who has 12000 hours in the game and then he decimates you
grave basin
I mean I can sympathise with that part
End of season inflation starts you out close to 2.1
New person zones in and gets torn apart
Needs to chain lose to 1500
Theyd quit long before that point
If you played end of last season it wasn't uncommon to have a person with zero rounds played or maybe 1 lobby at max
And you could instantly tell he doesn't belong in the lobby
keen canopy
might be sometimes worse at the start of season honestly
i see people all the time go oh boy i guess ill start pvping in WoW, and it's the start of the season so i wont even need to catch up on gear
and then they just get smoked in every lobby
i had this resto shaman in a lobby at the start of season
he went 0 6 and had like i think 500k damage at the end of the lobby
i'd be surprised if that guy ever played again
and it's not like that was the first time ive seen that happen offc
tender tartan
prolly didnt want to play into another ret
fuckin rets idk
the amount of searing lights i ate on the round i won
which was indeed the triple fucking pally
actually i think he's the one who died
so he ragequit because even he knows his dumb ass shouldnt have died
only reasonable explanation at this point
keen canopy
they say a picture is worth a thousand words
tender tartan
all of them are variations of fuck ret
why did we get instantly hotfixed
why is the pve sin dev hibernating
many questions
no answers to be seen
why did mm cast dark arrow once and do 15 mil
languid ravine
I logged into raid today, switched to Sub for practice
the first thing I learned that day is that cold blood macro bugs out when you swap specs
xd
tender tartan
the first thing I learned that day is that cold blood macro bugs out when you sw...
LMAO
mine works for some reason
but the other day it was cooked when i swapped to fatebound on sin
had to relog to fix it
grave basin
im hoping new DH spec is fun
tender tartan
same, cool concept
grave basin
leather class + zoom zoom + new an shiny
- ranged
im sure that's totally not gonaa kill havoc for pve
not like we have precedance with survival
also not like devourer gives chaos brand which already pairs well with magic comps and every magic comp has a mage which gives AI to the devourer which is also an int spec
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
night vector
I hope they give new DH spec shit ton of utility with ranged dps and short CDs, so retris start complaining about how stupid something like that is
grave basin
it will almost certainly be like that if you look at evoker
night vector
I dont even want to win, i just want retris to lose
grave basin
everytime they give mdps a rdps slot
with the same util and defensives
we know what happens to the mdps
stoic spruce
Int spec with magic dmg buff
grave basin
yea idk they need to overbuff havoc to the tits
to make people still play it
literal grief to not play the new spec that's 99.99% gonna be overtuned
and ranged
or better, give havoc something unique
stoic spruce
No
grave basin
yes
stoic spruce
This shit effects pvp
grave basin
why does thier unique thing have to be busted for pvp
keen canopy
yeah i imagine the new dh spec is either gonna be omega turbo busted in PvP or completely unplayable garbage but either way i'm gonna be there playing it day 1
stoic spruce
Devour existing in general is a nerf to every melee in the game
stoic spruce
why does thier unique thing have to be busted for pvp
Because it usually is
grave basin
devourer already makes havoc DOA
even if they do the exact same damage
so moot point
stoic spruce
That's not true at all
grave basin
why would any1 play a melee version of the ranged spec they have in thier class
if they provide the exact same thing
stoic spruce
Havoc has huge synergies with other classes
grave basin
are you high
stoic spruce
Demo
stoic spruce
why would any1 play a melee version of the ranged spec they have in thier class
You obviously are
keen canopy
why would any1 play a melee version of the ranged spec they have in thier class
oh yeah that's a good point
grave basin
for?
stoic spruce
oh yeah that's a good point
It's not though
Why would havoc be doa
Just because dev is ranged
stoic spruce
the same reason no1 plays sv/x unless sv is overtuned?
Dev uses warglaives
Try again
grave basin
warglaives have only agi or int
not both
youd still need two different weapon sets
keen canopy
i mean ranged is always preferred to melee in any combat scenario, in WoW the reason people still play melee is because the melee provides something that the ranged doesn't
but if
in this hypothetical
the ranged dh spec and havoc provide the same benefits
then you would just play the ranged spec 99% of the time
stoic spruce
Blizz stated all warglaives will be int too
grave basin
that doesnt change anything though
stoic spruce
At gamescom
keen canopy
the increased movement of havoc will probably not really put it over the edge in most scenarios
grave basin
people still dont play sv/x in thug or sv/x in cupid or sv/x in jungle
even on tourney realms
where you have free gear
unless youre a one trick like bicmex
with 40 billion hours on sv
keen canopy
genuine question what is sv/x
i mean i get the survival hunter part i think
but the x
grave basin
sv/feral sv/ret sv/rogue
keen canopy
oh yeah oh yeah
grave basin
why be in the blender when you can be in range
stoic spruce
that doesnt change anything though
It changes literally everything
stoic spruce
people still dont play sv/x in thug or sv/x in cupid or sv/x in jungle
That's not because it's melee
keen canopy
i mean didn't they say that the new dh spec will be casters and the glaives will just be sheathed to give them aura points
why would you need 2 weapon sets
grave basin
That's not because it's melee
did you see what happened to bicmex in the last awc
he literally got trained start to finish doing zero damage
by ret/war
and ret/war/fw just covered every go
stoic spruce
And you're telling me that's because it's melee
stoic spruce
And you're telling me that's because it's melee
In a class with 2 ranged specs
grave basin
yea exactly
stoic spruce
Make the connection
grave basin
it's not like sv doesnt have the burst profile
stoic spruce
How does bm and mm being ranged effect that
grave basin
their partners can cover for them while they blast from range?
stoic spruce
Okay
grave basin
stoic spruce
But make the connection as to how that effects surv being melee
And bic getting mowed down
What makes that different than say ret getting mowed down
They're both melee
Both good kill targets
grave basin
ret isnt melee
grave basin
ret barely loses anything from not being in range
sv loses like 40% of it's damage
it's not even close to the same
stoic spruce
Okay surv and dk since you want to get caught up on that
grave basin
DKs dont have the option to press N and respec to a ranged spec
that's the diff
if they did they would
stoic spruce
So there is no connection, got it.
grave basin
youre comparing different things
keen canopy
what is even the argument anymore
grave basin
im comparing specs within themselves
within thier class
also the only UH dk in last awc was mes?
stoic spruce
Somehow dev dh using the same glaives as havoc is the same as surv using actual melee weapons in a class that uses bows and guns
grave basin
that wasnt the argument
stoic spruce
It was initially
grave basin
no1 gives a shit about weapon types
grave basin
i said if you have a ranged option in your class, youll play that almost always
especially if they bring the exact same utility
youd be stupid not to
just like sv has the exact same util as bm and mm
and sv gets 0 play rate unless it;s very overtuned like this season
and even then bm is catching up now
stoic spruce
The synergy is also important. Being ranged doesn't make it better by default.
keen canopy
isn't the argument just
ranged is better than melee
which isn't really any argument that's just how fights work in any game or even real life scenario ever?
the example being
surv hunter
like how bic got smoked in the awc because he got trained which wouldnt have happened if he was just playing the other hunter specs?
i get all that right
stoic spruce
Surv has the same toolkit as the other hunters
grave basin
that's the point
stoic spruce
Also
keen canopy
yeah that's the idea
grave basin
lol
so it brings nothing
and has melee handicap
meanwhile you can play fury warrior with long hands (bm)
bring exactly the same thing
stoic spruce
If you don't synergize with your teammates, it doesn't matter
grave basin
synergy based on what
stoic spruce
CDs, utility, etc.
grave basin
synergy is based on toolkits
stoic spruce
It's why hpal sucks for dk
grave basin
theres nothing unique about sv at all in it's toolkit
except mending which is a meme for like 90"% of matchups
tender tartan
Lads
keen canopy
yeah but the point is that the other hunter specs
have what survival hunter has
except survival hunter is melee
and being melee is worse than being not melee
as such it follows
that survival hunter is bad
asterisk unless it's overtuned
tender tartan
i promise i dont always come in here JUST to tilt
keen canopy
i feel a "but" coming
stoic spruce
Butt
tender tartan
tf is this
stoic spruce
You mean
grave basin
if tmorrow blizzard releases RANGED DK
stoic spruce
Buy a better healer
tender tartan
its shuffle i cant even buy a healer to queue at this hour
grave basin
uh dk would be dead
stoic spruce
It already is with clawing shadows
grave basin
i said festering
stoic spruce
Unholy only synergizes with arms because of it's heal absorb
tender tartan
we dont have to treat eachother like this
grave basin
but that's not the point
tender tartan
go into the ret discord and treat them like this
grave basin
go into the ret discord and treat them like this
it's shutdown
keen canopy
no because that would be spreading hate
no shot it's still shutdown
you made that up
no way
grave basin
no lol im memeing
stoic spruce
brother just keeps comparing apples and oranges
I'm not though, I'm putting your logic into other comps
grave basin
but my logic doesnt extend to other comps
keen canopy
what
how is this his logic at all
tender tartan
no because that would be spreading hate
If you think hard enough about it, we're the oppressed ones here
bop, sac
grave basin
im COMPARING SPECS WITHIN A CLASS
tender tartan
im forgetting a few more yeah
we're the oppressed ones here, tis just self defense.
stoic spruce
im COMPARING SPECS WITHIN A CLASS
I just don't see it
There's not a world where havoc is doa
keen canopy
it's like
MM
BM
SV
these are the hunter specs
he's comparing these specs to eachother to demonstrate
that when you have the same toolkit, the ranged options are always better
this is being used as an example
to say that Havoc and Devourer
if Devourer has the same toolkit
it will be better because it is ranged
stoic spruce
With its toolkit
grave basin
erm well aktually mages break the mold because az is saying a class with 1 ranged 1 melee will almost always favour the ranged but im bringing up mage because!!xxdxd
tender tartan
I almost countered you with "survival can 100-0 you in .5s at least mm has to aimed shot once first"
and then i realized survival is in cc range
stoic spruce
There's 2 parts to this
grave basin
it's like
MM
BM
SV
these are the hunter specs
he's comparing these specs ...
Popo gets it he's just rage baiting
hollow carbon
🍿
stoic spruce
1.) If you're ranged and have no synergies with your teammate, you're throwing. Regardless of class/other specs in your class. It's just how it is.
2.) Looking at surv in a vacuum, BM and MM being ranged has no effect on how good surv is. Sure it's melee and that comes with downsides obv but that's you can't look at a spec like survival and apply ranged spec logic to a melee spec.
Ranged and melee have both pros and cons
keen canopy
what is the pro of being melee compared to range
stoic spruce
That are taken into account every match-up whether you realize or not
keen canopy
and don't give an example like "frost dk has this pro compared to frost mage"
stoic spruce
what is the pro of being melee compared to range
Generally more MS, disarms, and personal durability.
keen canopy
yeah
generally
but that isn't necessarily the case
stoic spruce
I wonder how dk mage is
keen canopy
like in the surv example
what does surv have that mm doesn't
grave basin
Disarm harpoon and mending
keen canopy
which is almost nothing really
grave basin
Mending is useless 95% of the time
Disarm does nothing against like 80% specs anyway
keen canopy
what surv does have over the other hunter specs
it isn't NEARLY enough
to justify it having the DOWNSIDE
of being melee
because being melee
is worse than being ranged
grave basin
And you can magic immune it
Hell you can even spell reflect sv disarm
If sv was the only hunter spec with ms
stoic spruce
Disarm does nothing against like 80% specs anyway
That's a bit of an exaggeration
grave basin
Disarm does nothing against DH monk uh DK and ret
stoic spruce
Next time I'll ignore the fdk doing his go and give him the free win
keen canopy
so the point being is
that if a spec is going to be ranged while the others are melee
then the melee spec must have a big enough upside to justify it being run over the ranged option
now sometimes surv does have a big enough upside of "doing a morbillion damage relative to the other specs"
but usually it doesn't
when an upside in this instance isn't "doing a bunch of more damage" (which is bad upside anyway because it's not exactly riveting game balance/design)
then the upside is having a different toolkit that brings different option
maybe the example being Feral compared to Balance but i don't really play enough druid to give that example in complete confidence
stoic spruce
Because it doesn't do anything
grave basin
I specifically said uh dk
stoic spruce
Uh does its damage by popping wounds
grave basin
I'm aware
lone jasper
Friends, I’ve been used to moving my character with the WASD keys and rotating the camera with the right mouse button for years. Do you think this causes a big problem?
stoic spruce
Friends, I’ve been used to moving my character with the WASD keys and rotating t...
Don't use S
grave basin
Ok so it's good against DKs rogues warriors
stoic spruce
Don't use S
Don't walk backwards rather
lone jasper
Don't use S
In pvp i dont really need S
grave basin
And enhance
keen canopy
well what he's saying is that walking backwards is super slow when you can just strafe in that direction instead
grave basin
Against Ret/DH/monk/feral disarm doesn't do anything meaningful
lone jasper
well what he's saying is that walking backwards is super slow when you can just ...
Yes thats true, i need no backwards but i have that key,
stoic spruce
You can bind something you use a lot to it
keen canopy
yeah that's what he means when he says "dont use S"
stoic spruce
Or just don't press it like I do
grave basin
s is a very good keybind
keen canopy
just that walking backwards is not good in almost scenario ever since just strafe instead
stoic spruce
Yeah
grave basin
For something you use rotationally
stoic spruce
just that walking backwards is not good in almost scenario ever since just straf...
I don't even do it in pve either tbh
keen canopy
but yeah i cant really think of anything that using WASD to move and right mouse click to turn would really negatively impact you
especially if you play melee classes
if you play ranged i guess maybe it would be annoying to turn to face them sometimes
but you'll just get used to that
lone jasper
but yeah i cant really think of anything that using WASD to move and right mouse...
Thanks
stoic spruce
I think most people play with that anyway
And bind S to like a builder or something
lone jasper
And bind S to like a builder or something
Never thought about it, but im gonna try
keen canopy
yeah so unless you're like
getting distracted by a rogue or something?
then not walking with your mouse isn't really the worst thing ever
stoic spruce
I have an MMO mouse so my keyboard is damn near default.
keen canopy
yeah so unless you're like
getting distracted by a rogue or something?
then not...
as long as you use right click so that you can still turn fast*
stoic spruce
I'm gonna swap left and right click
lone jasper
Aham, im a rogue all my life)))
stoic spruce
Get well soon
lone jasper
Nothing helps
keen canopy
yeah i dont have S bound to walk backwards but just never press it
keen canopy
and the way i hold my mouse is kinda cursed by most people standards so it sort of helps me move in a way i find easy
stoic spruce
I'm in ur barz, steeling ur spelz
lone jasper
Ive noticed people playing QWE and not rotating camera at all. Just with side walks, dont know how to explain, if u know what i mean. But i didnt like that.
keen canopy
yeah im not really a fan of that
lone jasper
Its maybe more for healers or casters dont know. But for me im much more slower with that
keen canopy
keyboard turners
i know many
it's never useful for them
except on Operator Thogar i guess
stoic spruce
Today's word is hard
stoic spruce
I lost
grave basin
totally not fotmer
stoic spruce
It's so over
grave basin
their soon isnt that soon
stoic spruce
Soon™
I want to see outlaw changes
I HAVE to know whether to delete my rogue or not
grave basin
that's all the changes
kir removed
kir removed + rtb auto casts after XYZ condition
that's all the outlaw changes i can see
stoic spruce
It's either going to go in a direction I don't like or the changes will be so minuscule it changes nothing
Blizz has a habit of going too far in one direction
grave basin
i mean i have zero hope lol all their big brains are gonna go develop devourer
stoic spruce
True
grave basin
dh duh
stoic spruce
But fdk rework was hype
grave basin
fdk rework is p good i must admit
stoic spruce
what class should i play for legion remix
I'm going outlaw to see how much haste it takes to make the spec fun again
keen canopy
9000%
grave basin
made it feel """""""modern""""""""
grave basin
if their mastery doesnt change you know blizzard truely gives no shits
keen canopy
yeah ill probably just play dh
i played dh a lot in legion anyway so maybe it'll be familiar or something
stoic spruce
You'll be able to summon demons as a demon hunter
grave basin
outlaw mastery changed: every 1% now gives you a chance to rtb an extra buff
keen canopy
yeah maybe aggramar will see me do that and decide to finally drop taeshalach
grave basin
?? i can for sure blizzard doing something lazy like that
stoic spruce
This dude with his hopes and dreams
keen canopy
yeah i can get every mount that expansion has to offer but a blue scythe of the unmaker and taeshalach is just beyond my reach apparently
grave basin
tfw i have taechalach but i never use it
keen canopy
why do the finest meats always end up on vegan plates
grave basin
fyrakk's axe looks way better
stoic spruce
I don't have that
grave basin
if youre a 2h user
stoic spruce
Played DK that season too
grave basin
i got it on my warrior this expansion
keen canopy
yeah i dont have the fyrakk axe either
but i dont really like it so im not really worried about it
not like taeshalach
grave basin
just did the everbloom infinity times
stoic spruce
You know what looks really good despite its age?
keen canopy
the old bloodfang set?
stoic spruce
Shadowmourne
stoic spruce
You know what looks really good despite its age?
The way I worded this is pissing me off ngl
grave basin
druid mop set is iconic
stoic spruce
You know what season has the worst sets
grave basin
some piss from cata probably
stoic spruce
No
keen canopy
all garbage
stoic spruce
S1 df
nova viper
Where is panda
grave basin
WHAT
nova viper
🙁
grave basin
rest is all rocks and shit
stoic spruce
Every set looks like this
stoic spruce
All of them
keen canopy
rogue set is good
are we lookin at the same set
grave basin
DK sets look like candy for sure
keen canopy
dont have the elite set sadge
not really i dont think it's good either
stoic spruce
are we lookin at the same set
Mmm grape
grave basin
except for this season
grave basin
are we lookin at the same set
red version of this looks good
monk set looks good
mage looks good
keen canopy
none of the conquest sets ever looks good
i like the conquest set for tww rogue season 1
but the elite is better
stoic spruce
That set looks like it tastes like cough syrup
stoic spruce
What a forgettable season tbh
grave basin
i like the conquest set for tww rogue season 1
not a fan of any elite sets this whole expansion till this season
stoic spruce
The bad mogs are the only thing I remember from it
grave basin
purely because thier colour palletes have been shit
like teal for rogue elite set
wtf?
atleast make it dark red/black
like come on
stoic spruce
So sick of teal
keen canopy
i like the rogue elite set from season 1 a lot
mage one from season 1 is also good but i dont have that one
grave basin
im gonna crate farm on DH tonight
their elite set
- xavious shoulders + red glaives
oh my
stoic spruce
Aspirant sets have been good lately
keen canopy
i dont like the elite dh set this season
grave basin
that's a take
keen canopy
i mean i can see the value of individual pieces
gloves
boots
but like the set in general
not a fan
keen canopy
oh yeah that was cool
keen canopy
like it just aint doing it for me
stoic spruce
Lack of artifact recolors in remix is such an L on blizzards part.
No recolors of raid sets either
keen canopy
shoulders and chest and pants
kinda yucky
grave basin
Lack of artifact recolors in remix is such an L on blizzards part.
yea this is a stupid hill to die on
theyre ADAMANT on it too
keen canopy
true and they're so inconsistent
grave basin
brah bring back mage tower appearances
keen canopy
no mage tower appearances because it was a prestige thing to do while it was current
but yeah sure have the Ahead of the Curve mount
grave basin
or atleast make a recolour
keen canopy
their logic is so garbage
grave basin
some specs get completely boned
like feral only has 1 sparklecat skin
and it;'s locked behind unobtainable content
stoic spruce
And you know for a FACT those files exist
stoic spruce
Because they had to go through a lot of color schemes to pick the ones they chose for legion
keen canopy
like they're trying to please both the "we would like almost everything to be obtainable" crowd
while also trying to please the opposite side of that coin
and they want to have it land on it's side
but then nobody is really happy
grave basin
so that's SOMETHING
stoic spruce
It's so bad
grave basin
they dont have to bring back the original
just give a recolor
like that's a good middle ground
grave basin
let the people who played back then keep thier OG skin
let people who didnt get a recolor
no one loses
stoic spruce
Idec about mage tower mogs because not even CURRENTLY AVAILABLE ARTIFACT RESKINS ARENT AVAILABLE
Like
HELLO???
keen canopy
i mean i think basically everything the game has to offer and had offered should be obtainable one way or another
and the only exception i'm willing to grant is like
war of the shifting sands stuff
but i could be convinced to add other exceptions
grave basin
muh prestige
stoic spruce
Like
grave basin
i agree on principle some stuff has prestige just from the fact it was hard to get
keen canopy
i guess glad titles should also be an exception but i wasnt really thinking about titles at all
keen canopy
yeah that's true
grave basin
you could walk in with world quest gear and overgear it
so there's NO prestige in it other than you were there in legion
stoic spruce
If we had recolors of artifact weapons but not mage tower weapons I'd be disappointed but that's whatever. But we don't even get regular dreadblade reskins.
Yall are mad about the wrong thing
keen canopy
and like
they let you DO mage tower now too
but you just dont get the weapon appearances
you do get a sweet book mount at least
but i would rather have the weapon appearances
but havent i said this all before
stoic spruce
and like
they let you DO mage tower now too
but you just dont get the weapon a...
If you have the 1st one unlocked you can unlock the rest
keen canopy
yeah i'm aware
grave basin
idk fam im gonna play lemix super casually
not like mop remix
where i played it all the time
keen canopy
yeah i'm aware
but i DON'T
so i'm MAD ABOUT IT
grave basin
maybe make a void elf DH
stoic spruce
Outlaw MT weapon sucks so idc personally
keen canopy
yeah i'm planningt to slam lemix super hard
grave basin
it's time gated so you wont be able to
keen canopy
Outlaw MT weapon sucks so idc personally
alright pal
this is a terrible take
it's like the only rapier appearance in the game i can find bearable to look at
grave basin
your cloak will be gated pretty hard in the first few weeks
stoic spruce
I want more colors of these
keen canopy
true
keen canopy
your cloak will be gated pretty hard in the first few weeks
well "cloak" but yeah i get what you mean
keen canopy
i've seen basically 0 things about it gameplay wise
i've seen the rewards
and decided I've gotta get em all as fast as i can
so that's what im gonna do
keen canopy
i mean i basically already have everything from the normal legion
like all the raid mounts etc
only things im missing are
blue scythe
taeshalach
and long forgotten hippogryph
grave basin
i guess i can get the AOTC mount theyre re-releasing
keen canopy
oh yeah i dont have that either
stoic spruce
I'm gonna play it safe and play remix with the hope of them adding artifact recolors at the end of the life cycle
keen canopy
i never get ahead of the curve last time i really raided like that was Siege of Org so
grave basin
what's a good void elf Dh name
what racial does void elf even have
is it the teleport
grave basin
completely useless for dh
keen canopy
you send out a rift
press it again to teleport to the rift
grave basin
you alrdy have so much mobility
keen canopy
not very uesful for dh yeah
you could have the classic DH name of some variation of Illidan
never forget the day DH came out where everybody was sitting outside of Black Temple waiting for the game to let them enter it
grave basin
actually in pvp every DH has alt codes
keen canopy
and 90% of them had basically the same name of "Illidan" with some accent mark
grave basin
some variation of ILLiDanGodX
keen canopy
it was cinema it was hilarious
stoic spruce
Feelidian since DHs are edgy
grave basin
the thing is when you level in lemix and it gets ported to retail
you lose the name
doesnt it just get renamed to Genericrunner1234 or something
keen canopy
just gotta come up with 2 good names then
like "Illidann"
and then
"Illidannn"
2 good DH names
stoic spruce
Can't do Illidannn
keen canopy
names are probably taken anyway
stoic spruce
Nope
keen canopy
all the good ones are
keen canopy
sure sure ill reopen the game just for this
keen canopy
i mean i reopened it just to send screenshots of the transmog sets earlier so
wow this game is unplayable garbage
doesnt even fit in the text box
stoic spruce
Try making a class trial
keen canopy
nvm i got it
keen canopy
Try making a class trial
yeah this one i know it's pretty awful
sharp sierra
I saw someone with an omega symbol in their name
sharp sierra
like it just aint doing it for me
This dh doesn’t have tattoos that’s why it looks bad but it’s the hardest set this season!
keen canopy
maybe that's a good point
keen canopy
eh im going through all these tattoo options and the set barely shows them at all
do i need to be female or something
dark moon
what's a good void elf Dh name
Arthasdk, womanillidan, Lillydan
Also Imnotmytattoos, Glowinthedark
You can also be void elf and name it Hordeelf just to piss off all the role players
night vector
Purplespec so everyone knows youre fotm roller
dark moon
Or Fotmtime
So they know for sure you're meta slave, pun intended
Lazerbeambrr, Eyebeambrr, Firinlazer
grave basin
everyone will be forced to play the new spec anyway
dark moon
I know I will play some fotm evoker-like dh. I also have the feeling it will be like regular havoc, but with a twist, cause I lost trust is this company. Hopefully I'm wrong.
grave basin
you can see some of the abilities they have
in the midnight preview
100% they design the spec with around 20-25 buttons MAX and every button has a purpose
if fdk/evoker reworks are something to go by
outer sky
I know I will play some fotm evoker-like dh. I also have the feeling it will be ...
How much you wanna bet it has a bleed cleanse?
gusty hedge
I know I will play some fotm evoker-like dh. I also have the feeling it will be ...
augmentation is slept on 
dark moon
How much you wanna bet it has a bleed cleanse?
No, please no.
Aug should be deleted from the game or reworked as tank spec
dark moon
100% they design the spec with around 20-25 buttons MAX and every button has a p...
20 buttons? Which game is that
dark moon
I also have detect traps but its not a button
How does a spec which channels a beam has 20 buttons, what? Did they get reworked?
gusty hedge
you lose the name
you shouldnt lose the name because u will create it on one of the servers you play on, like mop remix, only difference is you dont have to wait for lemix to be over to transfer to retail from game mode, unless they changed something
gusty hedge
Aug should be deleted from the game or reworked as tank spec
lol aug slaps with tier but damage feels like outlaw at times rng, mostly kiting, damage ramp/ waiting on cdr for burst. it has decent controll and mobility. oddly it heals quite alot, deff support class
slender ember
you shouldnt lose the name because u will create it on one of the servers you pl...
@ivanrah they changed it. You can transfer it over at any time now. Just can't go back after you do it.
waxen meteor
like it just aint doing it for me
It's alright without the head
but the 2.4 unlock the additional visual of head
regardless of DH alt is running with elite set without head, you can't hide the beautiful face of BE female for a stupid helm
molten hedge
Hey. Our 3s team is around 2.1kcr rn, and we seem to rly struggle vs splay in particular especially with an rsham. Playing dev assa. Do you guys have any tips? We usually go demo most of the game
I’m thinking of playing DS so I have a bit more tankiness but would love any playstyle recommendations or target swap recs and whatnot
dark moon
Isn't this high cr for 3s atm? Also are you playing Fatebound atm? DS should give more pressure
fluid trench
jolly sierra
noble venture
My highest rating ever
Only shuffle but I am still pleased
How do people feel about all these disc priests? I see them so often
I think it's fantastic for assa
devout egret
Is blood elf or dracthyr the better race for subtlety? I see that they want mastery even more than vers, and Dracthyr get a 2.5% mastery buff with their racial, along with the push for interrupting channels + the glide to counteract being pushed/falling from places in world pvp. Meanwhile blood elves have arcane torrent to remove things like Blessing of Protection, take less arcane damage, and have a 2% higher crit strike chance. 
merry zodiac
how critical is 4-set for outlaw in pvp?
waxen meteor
Is blood elf or dracthyr the better race for subtlety? I see that they want mast...
Go Orc or Human...
Blood Elf Racial most time will not dispell bop.
devout egret
Go Orc or Human...
Appreciate the candor, but reason for my question is cause I've got 1 dracthyr rogue and 1 belf, I just don't know which I should gear 😂
devout egret
Blood Elf Racial most time will not dispell bop.
Noticed this too! Maybe it's just the last benefical effect activated that can be dispelled?
noble venture
Does anyone know roughly the rating conversion between shuffle and 3v3? Same player in both brackets for example
Even if its anecdotal evidence
Just curious
For example your own experience this season
merry zodiac
how important is set bonus for outlaw in pvp rn?
spring bough
how important is set bonus for outlaw in pvp rn?
You’ll want both for either trickster or fatebound. Two set is huge for fatebound and four set is meh but any additional CDR helps. Two set for trick is meh but the four set for double coup is what you want if you play trickster
waxen meteor
Appreciate the candor, but reason for my question is cause I've got 1 dracthyr r...
BE, both racial doesn't do much, go with better look
or pay 21 dollars
merry zodiac
You’ll want both for either trickster or fatebound. Two set is huge for fateboun...
pretty sure I'm playing fate. and ty!
waxen meteor
Does anyone know roughly the rating conversion between shuffle and 3v3? Same pl...
2.4 solo is mostly 2.1 in 3s and mostly 2.7 in blitz
roughly, ymmv obviously
noble venture
This seems correct