pvp

[outer sky]

yeah. it's unrated pvp. why not lol

[median yarrow]

idk why but pshero never looks like they're having fun playing the game

absolutely miserable, no joy in their eyes

[jolly sierra]

cuz pshero is a doomer

[spring bough]

when bro smirks

you know hes having fun lol

[cyan mural]

I mean its his job, and he is more like a "administrative assistant" and less like an entertainer.

[outer sky]

doing the campaign on my mage and I'm at this part. Like, shouldnt I be able to light this whole place up? I'm a fucking fire mage

[potent pivot]

[median yarrow]

his job is to stream ye? idk, i guess main reason to watch is that he's good at rogue?

[cyan mural]

He is just there.
Imagine you have to go to a counter where an attendant gives you a form. Now you can go to the counter you've always gone to, or take the risk of going to a new counter where you're not sure if you'll really get better service. Pshero is that old counter, always filling out the same forms. You don't get anything special, but you know what you're getting, and in the end you have a correctly filled out form, even if it's not much fun. So why go to another counter, you are there for the form.

[median yarrow]

i guess so, fair enough

[potent pivot]

[outer sky]

The fuck is this quest that has me throwing rocks at orphans LOL

[potent pivot]

lmfao

[potent pivot]

bro

i just queued into a ww

i'm on fdk with an assa on my team and ww is solo

and he out damaged me

loooool

1m dps

i guess he had a target to cleave on

but holy

[outer sky]

yeah their burst is pretty nutty with xuen and SEF

[potent pivot]

i actually had to press deathstrike once in a 2v1

the burst was real

[wintry dew]

This made me laugh too loudly.

[potent pivot]

JJ typing in #pvp

[heady swift]

WW is slept on imo atm.. there are some clips out there atm (i won't advertise the streamer)

ssssht

trickz

im not saying anything

[potent pivot]

[heady swift]

orrrrrrrrrrrrr

i could advertise my own clips

but naah haha

[potent pivot]

https://tenor.com/view/watch-my-clips-sneako-gif-1148204253639308433

[heady swift]

btw... I said id share my beta clips like 5-6 weeks ago... well eeeuhm.... yea

[potent pivot]

[heady swift]

nah im too embarrassed i f'ed my one shot even in the retry..

https://www.twitch.tv/snupy/clip/HyperPuzzledIcecreamHoneyBadger-pbIU736uscBpUG9I????

why not eh

[potent pivot]

edit it with "?" at the end

and do it until it embeds

twitch clips are weird like that

usually takes 2 or 3 ?s

[heady swift]

there we goooo

[potent pivot]

there ya go

[heady swift]

but like for real WW is out dpsing quite some stuff even not fully geared... Or the one ive seen is just a really good player but ... quite impressive

[jolly sierra]

mainenance in EU, F

got 2 bloodstones at least

[potent pivot]

DK is fine guys i promise

[outer sky]

has to be a BG

[potent pivot]

?

That was me in a 2v2

[outer sky]

wtf

oh!

i read it wrong

myb

[potent pivot]

You thought it was 17M dps didn’t you

Lmao

[jolly sierra]

report trickz hacks

[outer sky]

ye lol

[jolly sierra]

now we need a rogue doing 500k dmg and we are doomed

[potent pivot]

Frost DK opener is so satisfying

[outer sky]

how about 600?

[spring bough]

Finding rank one resto druids in skirms 🔥

[jolly sierra]

report starlinkgamr hacks

[potent pivot]

Grip 2x, aoe blind, winter, frostwyrm aoe stun, GG

[jolly sierra]

lol

[outer sky]

I did as much damage as the other 3 dps combined

[spring bough]

Bro just stop until Tuesday

Don’t get us nerfed

🙏

[outer sky]

lmfao

[spring bough]

Bro 🤦‍♂️

[topaz bobcat]

Thank you for this information

[outer sky]

what information?

[topaz bobcat]

carry on, please post more screenshots of your conquests my fellow rogue

[outer sky]

youre gunna post this to the forums arent you

shhhh

[sweet swallow]

for ass rogue is my send it opener cheap - garotte - rupture - deathmark - kinsbane - envenom?

[potent pivot]

i'm too busy taking and posting screenshots of me doing 3m dps on my hunter

[sweet swallow]

or maybe kidney > envenom

[potent pivot]

we aren't rly running KB anymore

[outer sky]

cheap>garrote>garrote>rupture>cheap>ambush>shiv/tea>cheap

[potent pivot]

unless 1v1/2v2

[outer sky]

if youre only dealing with 1 target

the double garrote is important

dont forget it

[sweet swallow]

dumb question but im switching targets for the 2nd garrote right

[outer sky]

https://tenor.com/view/dont-forget-spongebob-bring-aroundtown-gif-24176239

[potent pivot]

no

[outer sky]

no

this was a 1v1 scenario

[sweet swallow]

wait so then garrote can tick twice?

[outer sky]

no

you want to double garrote because doing so gives you the full pandemic affect of garrote

it lasts for 18s

but you can reapply it

and get up to 7 extra seconds

and thats your empowered garrote

so you want it to last as long as possible

plus after 2 garrotes youll have combo points for a full combo point rupture

[sweet swallow]

is pandemic a talent?

[outer sky]

no it's just how DoTs in WoW work

"The Pandemic effect of over-time effects occurs when you refresh a DoT or HoT effect that hasn't expired yet, as the remaining duration (up to 30% of the original duration) will be added to the duration of the refreshed ability. This makes it easier to refresh DoTs and HoTs without having to perfectly time your reapplications right when it would normally expire."

[sweet swallow]

sorry to just bombard with questions but are u running deadly or wound?

[outer sky]

wound

[lime oar]

blades - sepsis - 6/7 cp

[outer sky]

are you getting 7 with everything else?

[lime oar]

yea, cheap , gouge, ss. all workin

[outer sky]

then its bugged

[lime oar]

damn, ill submit a ticket

thats weird

it doesnt do that for any of yall?

[outer sky]

i havent noticed but I havent played much sub yet

this xpac

[potent pivot]

i haven't noticed it naw

ill check rq

yeah im getting 6

[outer sky]

holy shit!!

[lime oar]

they thought we wouldnt notice

[potent pivot]

?

[outer sky]

It finally happened

everyone pulled the lever

[potent pivot]

lmao...

[outer sky]

https://tenor.com/view/pull-the-lever-wrong-lever-wrong-lever-kronk-pull-the-lever-kronk-the-emperors-new-groove-gif-27333081

[outer sky]

dammit I was half a second away from getting a pvp socket

damn mages

[potent pivot]

really

[outer sky]

yeah my guild made a 5 man group

2 of us got it

I got this from the whole thing though

so not a total waste

[potent pivot]

[outer sky]

I got the alliance slayer one back in early BFA when it was first introduced

[potent pivot]

yeah idr how long ago it was i got that one

sometime after i came back in SL

[outer sky]

okay ya know whats the greatest thing ever

smoke bombing someone when their Hpriest healer is in spirit form

I fucking love it

[jolly sierra]

SAME LOL

or when the dh is flying

[outer sky]

rekt

[sweet swallow]

alright whats this build

[potent pivot]

i'd assume it's the same build from the pins

[outer sky]

this

[rain crown]

@outer sky me and some friends did skirms tonight and assa feels really good

[queen grail]

whats fast honor

i only have 4 pvp pieces hehe

[potent pivot]

well you kinda missed comp stomp, so prolly just BGs

[graceful flax]

sub/assa pretty equal in terms of what spec is better right now?

[pseudo fjord]

DTB without amp, wound and deadly?

[outer sky]

its good if you can cleave effectively

[potent pivot]

what?

[potent pivot]

yeah

[outer sky]

Does this mean I can stop doing the campaign?

[pseudo fjord]

sorry, playing DTB without amp poison, which 2 lethal poisons?

[potent pivot]

we don't really play DTB anymore

but

[outer sky]

wound and deadly. Those are the only 2 you have without amp

[potent pivot]

wound+deadly

[pseudo fjord]

cheers.

[potent pivot]

yeah

that's lvl 80 campaign

not necessary

[outer sky]

wait I just accepted a quest and the reward is access to WQs

[potent pivot]

you have instant too

btw

[outer sky]

ok campaign done

phew

[pseudo fjord]

im curious, in the pinn'ed assas build, why no kingsbane?

[outer sky]

yeah I had to do 1 more quest

[outer sky]

because it's trash

[potent pivot]

because its bad

[outer sky]

play it in 2v2

[pseudo fjord]

that was quick

hahah

[potent pivot]

if u want WQs in the azkahet area

you need to make a pact

i would recommend doing so now

[outer sky]

nah idgaf

I need to level my monk

do I have to do the dalaran story thing before I can start dungeon spamming?

[potent pivot]

you start like 1 quest and the guy should have a Skip dialogue option

just skip and it takes you to Dornogal

[potent pivot]

you won't see the pvp WQs in that zone unless you do

it only takes a second, just remember to do later on

[outer sky]

what do I need to do?

[potent pivot]

there should be a purple triangle telling you to talk to the main big spider lady

talk to her, then do the short quest and make a pact with one of the spider factions

you legit just talk to 3 npcs quick

then choose

[outer sky]

is there a portal back there from dornogal?

[potent pivot]

yeah

next to the BMAH

[marsh wadi]

Feel like as a primary solo player I should just be running sin. I get a lot of setups ruined as sub lol.

[potent pivot]

you gotta be think at 5head levels

[marsh wadi]

Best I can do is 3

[potent pivot]

damn

[marsh wadi]

I have a lot of fun with sub, but I just feel like I'd have less "damn..." moments as sin.

[outer sky]

Does it matter at all which I make the pact with?

[potent pivot]

nah

you just get a different ability for the week

doesn't matter at all

petkick's spotify playlist

goes hard

[outer sky]

DK?

[potent pivot]

assa

i wish rated was out today

kinda pumped to play but all i got is skirms

[marsh wadi]

At what point are we using thistle tea as sin now? Doesn't seem like any of the material mentions using it even within burst windows for the mastery buff.

[outer sky]

thats the best part

[potent pivot]

use it for energy and mastery

[outer sky]

you just use it when you feel like doing 14% more damage

[potent pivot]

but mostly mastery

[outer sky]

pop it when you have full bleeds up

usually nice to pair with a shiv

full bleeds, everyone's dying, healer struggling to keep up

and you just press tea off global

cranking up the heat 14%

[marsh wadi]

Word. General rule of thumb pop after full bleeds into shiv if I have it?

Then just kinda keep it up as much as possible for fun.

👍

[outer sky]

yep

[potent pivot]

i think enhance is about to be busted

damage and healing is kinda nutty

[surreal barn]

Tier 2 set remaster what

I’ve been waiting too long

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/s/hwD01DgPKl

[potent pivot]

isn't that just a community made thing?

or did blizzard actually tease that

oh shit blizz posted it

[surreal barn]

Haha

Ya they did

[potent pivot]

can you imagine if they remade bloodfang

or one of the other iconic sets

[surreal barn]

Oh I can and I am

[jolly sierra]

just fought with a paladin who insulted me for being spanish

guy was just in rival

(ye im very elitist when ppl acts like pricks)

[keen orchid]

Hey why is sepsis being used in the pins build for sub? i feel like it does 0 dmg

[potent pivot]

it's the best node to take for pathing to vanish cdr

it's also an extra different ability for Danse Macabre stacks

[graceful flax]

Is the weekly arena skirmish quest worth doing?

[potent pivot]

depends on what your opinion on worth is

you can see the rewards it gives right

[blazing hull]

any good assassination pvp guides out there or outlaw. i know its not viable. but dam it i wanna learn to play it??

[potent pivot]

outlaw is perfectly viable

there's a link to iceyveins in the pins for guides

[outer sky]

outlaw isn't playable without weakauras so make sure you have those set up

[potent pivot]

you think so?

[outer sky]

not a chance

[potent pivot]

i usually just play with the resource bar display ngl

just for my rtb buffs

[tribal badger]

i mean u cant properly minmax crackshot without a WA but u dont need to properly minmax crackshot to perform on outlaw

not in a pvp setting anyway

[outer sky]

I guess I meant "not playable optimally"

[tribal badger]

fully optimally

ur probably 90% of the way there at least without WA if ur really good but yea

outlaws alot to handle without WA in general

crackshot basically requires it to have 100% optimal windows

[potent pivot]

i think everything that "requires WAs" can be solved in other ways

straight up

at most for outlaw all you need is a WA the tells you when to roll

[tribal badger]

there is no human way to know if the end of ur last gcd will fall inside or outside the crackshot window unless you play on zero ping and have perfect zero downtime GCDS for the entire window

[potent pivot]

if you don't know the rolls well enough

[tribal badger]

for you to send a last BtE

in pve the zero downtime gcds r much more reliable then in pvp as well

a last gcd WA is highly recommended if u wanna get the maximum oomph outa crackshot windows but, its less punishing to not have in pvp then it is in pve

so like i said ur probably not missing much

[outer sky]

There's more to it than even that tbh

like if you have the broadsides buff your entire rotation changes

just all these little things

on top of teh crackshot bs

someone whos been playing it for a long time can probably manage, like you said, 90% of it without WAs

but someone who's not already a pro at the spec?

no shot

[blazing hull]

are there any video guides or just the one on iccyvaynes? never been a fan of the guides you read

[potent pivot]

shadenox has assa guides on youtube, nothing TWW specific yet

the gameplay is very similar though so far

[blazing hull]

sweet ill check him out

[orchid plinth]

Honestly I tried outlaw in PvP in DF while being new and I dropped it because I focused too much on playing Outlaw instead of PvPing too much brain power to deal damage instead of seeing what enemies did etc

[potent pivot]

really

i feel like outlaw kinda has to think the least about what it's doing ngl

[outer sky]

if you already have it down, yes

[potent pivot]

i mean outlaw is mostly just

pressing your buttons

[orchid plinth]

World of Warcraft!

[potent pivot]

no dots to check, no dance to finesse

it feels like the least ... strategic gameplay?

[orchid plinth]

I guess compared to Assa everything felt hard back then

[outer sky]

Think about it from a new player's perspective

"okay so I have a pistol shot proc and I'm at 3 combo points so I use pistol shot but wait I have the broadsides buff and I'm in crackshot so actually I have to use ambush but wait now I have an audacity proc and a pistol shot proc and I'm at 5 combo points with no broadsides so I use a finisher and then ambush but wait now I have 2 combo points and a pistol shot proc with no audacity and no broadsides so now I have to use pistol shot but wait now I have 5 combo points and no procs but I have broadsides so I have to finish but wait now I have 5 combo points without broadsides so now I have to use sinister strike...."

and I havent even mentioned crackshot yet

[potent pivot]

holy wall of text

ig i'm just used to it yeah

[safe pelican]

I felt the same but I’m about to try it again now that i have sub & assas down … it’s simple tbh just overwhelming cause i personally think outlaw has the most buttton bloat out of all 3 specs with assass being the least

[unborn relic]

is there an updated list of all of the stealth bugs somewhere?

[potent pivot]

nop

[safe pelican]

Sub is back 😎🙂‍↔️

[unborn relic]

just gettin popped out left and right

[stable carbon]

From a new players perspective to retail we have no idea what we do even though I played classic for a long time

[safe pelican]

Just gotta get your go started before they start pressing buttons for now

[stable carbon]

We just try to do the rotation from the guide and still not much dps

And in pvp we just use cc that we have and still can’t kill the opponent

[safe pelican]

Idk why they are giving us the cold shoulder rn with the bug fixes just more concerned with raking in dollars instead of fixing the game lol

[orchid plinth]

Can someone explain what the poop is happening when you press Shadowdance during Subterfuge? Which action bar am I on?? I still don't understand how to macro "stealth" abilities here... Stealth, only Shadowdance (no subterfuge) and Sepsis seems to work fine.

[potent pivot]

i don't understand the question

when you're in stealth/subterfuge/dance you should be on your stealth actionbar

[safe pelican]

I think he’s referring to how we two bars a set of stealth abilities and a set of non stealthed and how they switch arrangements upon entering /exting

[potent pivot]

i just put all the same exact spells on every spot

[orchid plinth]

Yes exactly thank you for english

[potent pivot]

in and out of stealth

[safe pelican]

This don’t over complicate things lol

[blazing hull]

epic bgs are UNPLAYABLE as a rogue. literally EVERYTHING knocks you outta stealth.

and forget abiout it if a druid is anywhere within 15 miles of you

[pliant mauve]

Yo. Mfers. Am I out of mind or does not having SnD up not really matter all that much. I’ve been going through my logs after doing the weekly skirmish quest and I’m a little confused on how little of an impact it seems to make. I get it going early every time out of habit but sometimes when I don’t I still do pretty much the exact same damage.

[potent pivot]

you press SnD during downtime between goes

evis just keeps it up

you won't see all of SnD's value on details

it's good to have up

[outer sky]

Okay so for outlaw it goes like this;

Your combo point builders are, in order of importance, Ambush with an audacity proc>pistol shot with a proc>ambush/sinister strike (if in subterfuge ambush, if not sinister strike). You never press pistol shot without a proc.

So if you are not in subterfuge and you dont have an audacity proc or a pistol shot proc, you press sinister strike. If you are in subterfuge and you dont have an audacity or pistol shot proc you press ambush. If you have a pistol shot proc but not an audacity proc you press pistol shot, if you have an audacity proc you press it no matter what other procs you have.

However, if you're inside crackshot the priority becomes ambush with or without an audacity proc>pistol shot with a proc>sinister strike. So if youre inside crackshot and you have a pistol shot proc you press ambush over pistol shot still. UNLESS you have the broadsides buff, then you defer back to the regular priority and only press ambush over a pistol shot proc if you have an audacity proc.

You spend your combo points at 6+ unless you're in your crackshot window in which case you can finish at 5+. You keep slice and dice up and finish with Between the Eyes within crackshot and dispatch outside of it. You can press Between the Eyes outside of crackshot only if there's 45 seconds or more on your vanish cooldown.

[pliant mauve]

Yeah. I get that. I’m saying sometimes when I don’t get it rolling at all it still seems inconsequential. I keep it up 9/10 times but when I don’t it never feels like I’m being punished at all. Idk. I’m an idiot.

[potent pivot]

SnD results in faster poison application, more energy, and it stores combo points

for sub^

[pliant mauve]

Ok. That makes sense. I’ve been playing Assa the last three 4 seasons. Haven’t messed with Sub too much. Good to know.

[orchid plinth]

Compare this to "keep up rupture, keep up garrote, press muti/fok until big cp press envenom "

Shiv when angry, use Tea

[potent pivot]

Fan of knives

[potent pivot]

You just have to get used to the flow

[orchid plinth]

Okay so we don't have a separate Shadowdance action bar now? It's just 1 normal and 1 stealth action bar?

[potent pivot]

Ye

[blazing hull]

game is sooooo freakin close... and i cant even do anything but sit back and watch.... man epic bgs are a no go for rogues. this was a painful; lesson

[blazing hull]

and otlaw is sword and dagger? or 2 swords

[potent pivot]

Either is fine

[outer sky]

doesn't matter.

[potent pivot]

Technically dagger offhand is better

[pliant mauve]

Cloak and run your ass in and throw those garrotes around and pad the meter.

[potent pivot]

But the difference is small

[pliant mauve]

May as well have fun if you’re going to lose.

[orchid plinth]

Use what you think is cooler -> you thinking it's cool -> play better

[outer sky]

Put all of your "stealth only" abilities on bars that dont change when you go in and out of stealth and keep your stealth bar identical to your unstealthed bar except replace your main combo point builder on the stealth bar. So for assa replace mutilate with ambush on your stealth bar, outlaw replace sinister strike with ambush, and sub replace backstab with shadowstrike

[pliant mauve]

Are fatebound Assa rogues even using Ambush now?

[potent pivot]

As fatebound you don’t have to, but if you need to build on 1 target during subterfuge yes

If not pressing garrote ofc

[outer sky]

if youre in subterfuge and you can only hit one target to get combo points, ambush

[orchid plinth]

I still have the same problem: pressing dance during subterfuge puts me on my "normal" bar - this means I'll have Backstab instead of Shadowstrike on my actionbar for the duration of the dance if I pressed dance during subterfuge!?

[potent pivot]

[pliant mauve]

But wouldn’t you want an imp garrote up first? Like garrote, (maybe) ambush, rupture?

[potent pivot]

Yes you garrote first

[orchid plinth]

They really want me to grow up and have separate bindings for Backstab and Shadowstrike

[potent pivot]

Gar, gar, rupture, then ambush

[outer sky]

also, you can bend the rules a bit. Lets say you have 3 combo points and you need to full kidney someone quickly. You can ambush/mutilate even if youre in range of more than 1 target to get 2 guarnteed combo points in 1 global for the kidney instead of likely needing to use 2 globals for Fan of Knives

[outer sky]

dance should show your stealth bar

[orchid plinth]

It does

[pliant mauve]

Why not envenom at 5 instead of ambushing and over capping?

[orchid plinth]

Just NOT when I dance during Subterfuge. It's really weird.

[pliant mauve]

Oh nvm

[potent pivot]

Yeah even if I dance during subterfuge it shows me the same stealth bar

[pliant mauve]

Rupture

[orchid plinth]

weeeird

[outer sky]

yeah i always have my stealth bar shown in dance/subt

[orchid plinth]

I've tried without all addons as well... Maybe there is some CVar I fucked up.

[potent pivot]

If you messed with stance bars maybe

[pliant mauve]

That’s how my rogue bats in Cata classics behaved.

[outer sky]

My 2nd highest damage wasnt even my damage

[orchid plinth]

It's so weird, its only if I pressed Dance during Subterfuge. Subterfuge paging works fine. Dance works fine. Stealth works fine...

[potent pivot]

Do you have a weird macro on dance

[jolly sierra]

GUYS GUYS

||chadgar is alive||

[potent pivot]

[orchid plinth]

wowowow that was it. I had /cancelaura Stealth in my Shadow Dance??? That somehow fucked it up lmao.

[outer sky]

LMFAO

[potent pivot]

ha

[orchid plinth]

Why would that... Only in Subterfuge.

Geez

[outer sky]

That reminds me of that episode of Codename Kids Next Door where Numbuh 5's sister was pissed off because one of the kids who's ship she was stowing away on accidentally pressed the "blow up the engines button"

and shes like

"why the fuck is there a blow up the engines button to begin with"

[potent pivot]

lmao

[jolly sierra]

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb3VOkD-JS8&t=2s||

[steel scarab]

I just hit level 76 in TWW on my rogue.

I can't speak to our total damage so far since I haven't done any real content. I was #1 dps in two dungeons, but the people I was playing with weren't geared or good.

That said, MAN the assassination hero trees are truly God awful.

Fatebound, which seems clearly like the better tree, rewards us for just... doing our completely regular rotation. No cool animation, no cool ability, just... literally, "good job doing the same thing you've done for 20 years, keep it up, here's completely passive damage that you have absolutely 0 control over."

And the Deathstalker tree feels awful to use, because while it rewards us for weaving Ambush into our rotation, the ENTIRE TREE does not function at all if you don't get your Ambush opener, or if you kill a target and the buff falls off. There are also a bunch of nodes centered around Fan of Knives for some reason, like they're trying to encourage us to weave that into our rotation too?

Like, bro. Blizzard. You had one job. Give us an ability that makes us feel like a scary assassin.

[potent pivot]

i'm pretty sure assa is running deathstalker in dungeons

and cranking

[steel scarab]

Again

I'm not talking about damage numbers

I'm saying both trees feel awful to use

Mechanically

[outer sky]

I literally play deathstalker for one reason and one reason only

[steel scarab]

One changes absolutely nothing about our class and just adds passive damage

The other adds a super annoying and buggy thing to manage that's balanced around being in stealth, which we can't reliably return to without burning Vanish

Literally, a tree that is 100% passive, and another tree that "rewards" us for using our abilities at moments that don't make any intuitive sense

[potent pivot]

fatebound incentivizes envenom

deathstalker incetivizes multiple things

and has funnel dmg

[outer sky]

nah you're smurfing. even if you never press ambush deathstalker still offers a lot. 30% CT damage, 25% rupture damage, extended rupture, and the wall on both cloak and evasion

[steel scarab]

It doesn't. You cannot prioritize Envenom over Rupture and Garrote because they've balanced our entire class around Venomous Wounds.

[orchid plinth]

From what I've heard from "people on the internet" rogue hero talents are extremely lackluster flavor- and gameplay-wise.

But If YELLOW BAR ON DETAILS BIG = GOOD CLASS AMRITE?

[potent pivot]

who said it would have a higher prio than envenom

[orchid plinth]

I like Darkest Night doing big Eviscerate in PvP

[halcyon timber]

Fuck the forums and reddit

[potent pivot]

fatebound incentivizes pressing envenom through Inevitability for coin flips

[steel scarab]

I would 100% be on board if a tree was like yeah go nuts, slam builders and big Envenoms, it would be different and a new option

[orchid plinth]

I hate Corrupt the Blood and Fatal Intent because it's just more garbage debuffs cluttering on the game

[steel scarab]

But you can't, you still have to maintain all your bleeds or you just become energy starved as usual

[orchid plinth]

WE NEED LESS GARBAGE DEBUFFS AND LESS GARBAGE PETS IN THE GAME OK?

[potent pivot]

would you really expect that to change

that's assa at it's core and always will be

energy management is important

[steel scarab]

So like, realistically, at what point in the decision tree is the hero tree rewarding us for deciding to use Envenom over another ability?

Never, because we're still casting Envenom as filler

[outer sky]

in BFA envenom was our big damage but we still had to maintain bleeds for energy. So we know from history that it's possible to accomplish that

[potent pivot]

[outer sky]

in fact this spread pressure bleed playstyle is relatively new

cuz you see

people used to make the opposite complaint

which is what got us here

"I have to maintain all these dots but theyre not doing shit for damage"

well we cant have both

so here we are

[steel scarab]

Let me say something real quick

A spec that's called Deathstalker, right, I'd expect that to be a single target oriented tree that would synergize with Vicious Venoms and Caustic Spatter. Use mainly Mutilate/Ambush as builders, get rewarded for that.

Fatebound is a bit more chaotic, and I guess having a mostly passive spec is fine, but I guess I envisioned that one to be more of a jack of all trades spec.

Can someone explain why Deathstalker, the single target murder class fantasy spec, has like 3 nodes that buff Fan of Knives?

[outer sky]

I think its 2?

3 if you count both choices on the choice node

but 2 in practice

[steel scarab]

Why would an assassin focused exclusively upon single minded killing be flinging knives at everyone around them? The entire Deathstalker gameplay loop is centered around entering stealth, ambushing your kill target, using max CP finishers on your kill target

Under what circumstance would that Deathstalker spec, that is fully incentived to be single target focused, want to weave Fan of Knives into its rotation from a class fantasy or a mathematic perspective?

[outer sky]

theyre adding a little AoE and ST to every hero tree so people dont feel shoe horned into the whole "this is my M+ tree and this is my raid tree" thing

[halcyon timber]

And funneling hatred into some joker

[steel scarab]

Also, did I misread this? There's a choice node in Deathstalker that says either, Gain 30% increased nature damage for 30 seconds after Deathmark expires (mega yawn, since again, this is a self buff, not a buff on your target, so how does this fit the hero class fantasy of assassinating someone?), OR just have a 30% passive buff to crit?

Like did I misread that or was that a tooltip error?

[outer sky]

it's that or 15% buff to your next envenom after you press shiv

[potent pivot]

why do you want more buffs on your target?

more debuffs is the last thing we need

[orchid plinth]

Hey it says "targets" plural it's AoE focused

[steel scarab]

Okay, that was a tooltip error then. My UI said the other option was just 30% crit, called Master Assassin (same name as our one talent)

I was like

Hmm, do I want a conditional nature damage buff, or just a passive 30% crit?

Big fucking duh I want the crit

Can I also say, reading the entire thing, only two things about Deathstalker excited me.

1 was the 30% passive crit buff that doesn't even exist, lol

2 was being able to get fat Ambushes by using the charges. Very cool idea, but they don't hit hard enough to be meaningful

[orchid plinth]

DKs have horses lore n shit they are cool flavor

[steel scarab]

I still love my class

But like, guys

Our hero trees are absolutely dogshit compared to the other classes

[orchid plinth]

Yes

But we have Cheap Shot and Stealth

[outer sky]

One thing I've wanted for rogues ever since I started playing this game as a 13 year old kid was an ability that would let us "melt" into the shadows and reappear somewhere else. Like Imagine the rogue sinking into a shadowy pit in the ground, then another shadowy pit appears behind you and the rogues reappears.

idk how good it would be but I'd play it every game

like that dude from One Piece who ate the Stealth Stealth fruit

[orchid plinth]

Door of Shadows but good

[steel scarab]

I'm not arguing in favor of the post-Deathmark ability being a targeted debuff, because clearly that would make it far worse. I'm saying the ability is just so uninspired from a mechanical and class fantasy perspective

[queen grail]

whats the good stats for sin

[halcyon timber]

Bc that’s shadow shot from gw2 pretty much and monks would shit their pants

[potent pivot]

!stats

[lethal roost]

These are the recommended stat priorities for each spec in PvP. Please keep in mind that having suboptimal stats on some pieces such as tier set pieces is not the end of the world.

Subtlety: Vers>Mastery>Crit>Haste
Assassination: Vers>Mastery>Crit=/=Haste
Outlaw: Vers>Haste=/=Crit>Mastery
You likely want to stack at least 20% Haste on Outlaw for an extra GCD during ADR/Crackshot windows. Take 'em by Surprise gives you 10% during CS windows, so you only need 10-15% from gear.

[potent pivot]

i think we all agree, you're just a little late to the party man

[halcyon timber]

Its dnd inspired which warcraft and rpgs /mmos were grandfathered from

[potent pivot]

at this point it's either accept it, try to move forward and make them work, or play something else lol

[orchid plinth]

Leveling is soooo easy now which is nice + Warbands

[steel scarab]

How about like, "when your target is below 6% HP, click this ability and you do a flashy move that ASSASSINATES THEM"??? Like, give players what they want ffs

1. it would make every raid want an assassination rogue

2. super fun to use in pvp

3. class fantasy

4. a button to press that feels satisfying

5. a new animation ffs

Literally, look guys, I fixed our entire class in 20 seconds

[tawdry wraith]

That would probably be one of the worst skills in history

[steel scarab]

It would be the most fun button to press and you know it

[outer sky]

idk monks have an execute like that and I wouldnt necessarily call it "fun"

it's just a button

[indigo hill]

Rogues should have a pickpocket players random item ability when the game judges the players as rude. 😄

[orchid plinth]

Just turn Pickpocket into GW2 Steal

[halcyon timber]

Steal was cool but they did tease that in SL but it never came

Was for stealing vial ingredients and stuff to augment things

[queen grail]

!opener

[halcyon timber]

They scrapped that idea quickly

[orchid plinth]

but now we are also getting into MoP Symbiosis terriroty

Druids Ice Blocking!

[halcyon timber]

F that too

That nonsense aint ever coming back

[outer sky]

I would simp hard for rogues to get a "substitution jutsu"

IYKYK

[jolly sierra]

i would simp for a t2 remake

with tints

[steel scarab]

Oh also, it is WILD that we can talent into 7 combo points and just two of them are wasted in most instances where we Kidney Shot in pvp because those two points just literally do nothing

Like, Blizzard. Have it do bonus damage at CP 6 and 7. Have it stun .5 seconds longer at 6 and 7. Something. Anything. It is fucking crazy that we are talenting into combo points that do nothing on one of our most core abilities in pvp.

Like God almighty.

[outer sky]

10 minute cool down. if you press it 1 second before you die, you dont die but auto vanish instead

omg

that would be so cool

[halcyon timber]

They nerfed kidney while you were sleeping james

[steel scarab]

I saw, which is wild. But like

[halcyon timber]

Yeh it’s whatever

[steel scarab]

Make point 6 and 7 do something. It doesn't have to be a stun

Apply a slow, a daze, pure damage, something, anything

Astonishingly bad design

The ability has a THIRTY second cd now

Point 6 and 7 should DO SOMETHING EXTRA

[outer sky]

I think if you kidney with 6 or 7 CPs it should just only use 5

[steel scarab]

Or that!

That would ALSO make sense!

Also! And I'm afraid to even bring this up

[tawdry wraith]

No I dont, because it wouldnt be the case. It would be a broken skill, that would be unusable in raid and on the example of WW was proven to be bad in any capacity, thats why it now is just your average execute button but slightly stronger and they hate it

[halcyon timber]

Warlocks will see

[steel scarab]

Why are we still getting knocked out of stealth when nothing is happening around us? I was just sitting in a dungeon entrance and later, in a delve entrance and REPEATEDLY kept losing stealth?

[potent pivot]

check iveyveins pvp guide

[halcyon timber]

Bc other class nonsense

[steel scarab]

The game is live. I thought for sure this would be fixed by now. Surely they know about it, it's easily reproducible

[halcyon timber]

Its just accepted until / if they change it

Just anti stealth crap all around lately which sucks but yeah

[steel scarab]

It's not that dude

[outer sky]

Guys I actually think this is gas af.

[steel scarab]

I'm standing with nothing around me

[halcyon timber]

Fk shadow reflection nonsense man

Devs already said they aint making main hero stuff anymore either

[orchid plinth]

Lmao I fucking despised the Shadow Reflection Redbuff spree Macro opener

[grave basin]

Apparently warlocks have a spell that auto knocks out everyone in 100 yards

[halcyon timber]

Was dumb

[grave basin]

No troll

[halcyon timber]

Yeah locks have a few things atm

Overfiend knocks us out too

[grave basin]

Also you can blade flurry someone from miles away and get CP and enter combat

That's new

[steel scarab]

They literally gave assassination two trees. A completely passive tree with no new animations, and a completely opener based tree that requires stealth to apply and maintain, with stealth in literally the WORST condition I've seen it since Vanilla

[grave basin]

Keep going keep going

Fun fact rogues are only a hair behind evokers in the level 80 stats

[steel scarab]

I am 100% talking about standing at a dungeon entrance, not in combat, not even within 100 yards of an enemy, and repeatedly losing stealth

[halcyon timber]

Yep same man

Not joking

[grave basin]

That's happened to me in that dungeon where you go down into the water

The mobs just break you out

[halcyon timber]

Its event world changes and shit and other silly shit from classes 100 yards away

[steel scarab]

There is something seriously and wildly wrong with stealth

[halcyon timber]

Nothing we can do besides report it

Druids told me the same happens to them

[grave basin]

On beta subterfuge didn't even work for a whole week

[halcyon timber]

Yeah was mcfucked

[grave basin]

So consider this an upgrade

Warlocks are also immortal atm

[steel scarab]

I mean, considering stealth basically doesn't work at all, if subterfuge was bugged, then yall were straight fury warriors in leather, with no defensive stance

[outer sky]

lmfao get rekt

idk bro

I just doubled the damage of 2 fury warrs

[halcyon timber]

Yeah fuckin their wall giving them a chunk heal is agitating

[steel scarab]

Well, in fairness, subterfuge is working now

[halcyon timber]

Yeah its working now and we are all thankful for it

They probably have a huge list of stuff set in queue so it isn’t going to be the last

[grave basin]

Rogue rerework in .05

[steel scarab]

Can you actually imagine trying to play Deathstalker assassination without Subterfuge? I looked at whispyr's suggested hero talents to see if my intuition was right and I literally laughed out loud when I saw he was suggesting people use Echoing Reprimand and no Subterfuge

Like bro

Stealth breaks constantly

[halcyon timber]

Dunno but f that anyway

[steel scarab]

Idk what sims you're running but Deathstalker WON'T WORK WITHOUT SUBTERFUGE IN A WORLD WHERE STEALTH IS UNRELIABLE

[halcyon timber]

Subterfuge is a great multi tool and always has been

[outer sky]

youre putting too much stock in deathstalkers mark. The rupture damage, duration, and CT damage, not to mention the defensives, are still really solid

[orchid plinth]

The video explains it well

[halcyon timber]

Darkest night hits are filthy too

Plus the 40 energy too

[steel scarab]

If Deathstalkers mark, the gameplay loop the entire spec is built around, isn't doing the majority of the spec's damage, then I'm sorry, but whoever designed it is an idiot who has never mained a rogue

[orchid plinth]

Stealthing is important for Indiscriminate Carnage, not Subterfuge.

[halcyon timber]

The mark is just a bonus , not supposed to be some forbidden words hit

[outer sky]

"whoever designed it is an idiot" ummm....yeah dude where have you been for the last 20 years? If brains were dynamite these Blizzard devs wouldnt have enough to blow their noses. That's nothing new. Kinda just have to roll with the punches. My point is the tree offers plenty aside from deathstalker's mark

[steel scarab]

Imagine designing a spec gameplay loop and just being like "BTW this is mostly irrelevant lol, just do whatever, all the damage is baked into rupture passively lol"

Like

Evhdckdjwbdncjdk

[worthy crag]

What about deathstalker makes you think most of the damage is baked into rupture?

[jolly sierra]

james that is enough u are going in rough territory w those quotes

in the end ppl will dislike you here

[worthy crag]

o i guess you are talking about sin, idk much about sin anyway

but with or without deathstalker sin's dmg is just dots

and that's how it is for all classes, dots with full uptime will always be the #1 dmg source

[candid tide]

Cause cleave dmg

[halcyon timber]

Im a big fan about combing all sources and not hyperfixating onto 1 thing dealing most of it. The trees provide flexibility in spec side and punch to several things. Its a step in the right direction

Gotta get to bed , class in a few hours. Behave yourselves peeps.

[steel scarab]

Good night man

[outer sky]

thats new for sin. as recently as BFA envenom was the big dam

[jolly sierra]

BFA rog biggest dmg source was gushing wounds

xdd

[outer sky]

S4 isn't "BFA"

[jolly sierra]

my favourite BFA moment

[gilded gulch]

I loved marinating people in spite

wdym

[steel scarab]

Yeah, for the first 3 iterations of the game, sin was the builder / finisher tree. Especially when we got envenom, which was bar none the best finisher of any rogue spec as it ignored armor

[jolly sierra]

once i got killed by a corruption eye because a fkn bastard blinded me into it

[gilded gulch]

sin is a rot spec

[jolly sierra]

and it never broke in the interval

[steel scarab]

Finisher AND builder damage has been toned down so much

[worthy crag]

Probably because it overlaps in concept with sub

[gilded gulch]

like who cares about classic

ancient

basically different game

[grave basin]

Nobody remembers when Assa had to use mutilate and evis cause envenom was too dog

[orchid plinth]

They should just rename Assassination to Poisonwarriorwarlock

[steel scarab]

Which is weird conceptually because subtlety should probably be the rot spec, right? What's subtle about lining up ten cooldowns to 3 shot someone lol

[gilded gulch]

also you werent even

a full commit to one spec

in old trees

you put points in all

[steel scarab]

You put 3 in combat, for improved gouge

[outer sky]

back in my day if you wanted a faster mount you had to pay for that shit!

[steel scarab]

Which they just also nerfed lol

[gilded gulch]

Point is

wotlk and earlier was an entirely different game

It's not relevant

[grave basin]

None of rogues toolkit was based on rot pre legion

[gilded gulch]

Legion was when they tried to differentiate

because sin and sub were really two flavors of the same spec

prior

[candid tide]

Just delete outlaw pls make some real rog spec instead

[grave basin]

Only reason you'd go into Assa was to get seal fate

And relentlessness

[jolly sierra]

rename it to swashbucker and we good

[gilded gulch]

yeah idk i've always seen sub as the only real rogue pvp spec

in oldschool wow

[steel scarab]

I think there are significant reasons a lot of people were very interested in classic iterations of wow and it wasn't pure nostalgia. There were design choices that most human beings preferred. Idk about you guys but having to wait 60 seconds to ramp up a bunch of abilities before i can start doing lethal damage is not a great feeling design

[gilded gulch]

yeah hold on brother im sure you enjoy autoing people to death

[grave basin]

Bro you should open your horizons

[gilded gulch]

which is classic vanilla rogue

[grave basin]

Play DH

[jolly sierra]

im just interested in classic because i get a lot of tokens w minimal effort

[steel scarab]

Ditto to having Mortal Strike effects just completely ignorable by healers until 80% dampening

[grave basin]

No joke

Have you tried other specs

Fury does what you want kinda

Press swifty macro and go ham

[outer sky]

all i want for rogues in this game, literally the one and only thing, is for pre-nerfed cloaked in shadows to come back. Id do anything to have that again.

[gilded gulch]

60 seconds is kind of exaggeration

[potent pivot]

[worthy crag]

lol yeah no

[grave basin]

Yea ... No

That was super tox

[worthy crag]

that pvp talent single handedly created so many rogues who got away being idiot proof

[gilded gulch]

bring back deadly throw kick

jk

do not

[worthy crag]

maybe only surpassed by burst of speed

[grave basin]

Hear me out sisters

[gilded gulch]

or fok interrupting people

[grave basin]

Cloaked In shadows AND burst of speed

I'm cooking

[candid tide]

Bring bak recuperate and we good

[jolly sierra]

gouge not breaking

[outer sky]

no just cloaked in shadows

[gilded gulch]

wait which cloak nerf we talking

the df baby one where it counted as bubble too?

[candid tide]

And prep too

[jolly sierra]

veiled cloak?

[outer sky]

no

[candid tide]

Cant believe they removed prep

[orchid plinth]

gouge should break they should just remove all garbage debuffs and pets and aoe and shit and aaaaaaaaa

[steel scarab]

Preparation was a mistake

[jolly sierra]

play pandaren and u get that gouge

[grave basin]

Melee sv was a mistake

[jolly sierra]

melee SV was the OG SV

[gilded gulch]

evokers are a mistake

[jolly sierra]

DHs themselves are a fkn mistake

[steel scarab]

I agree

[grave basin]

Based

[outer sky]

back in SL there was a conduit called Cloaked in Shadows that gave you an absorb shield whenever you entered stealth and it would quickly disappear when you came out of stealth. But it was awesome because DoTs only take you out of stealth if they hit into your health. So this conduit basically made it so DoTs wouldnt pull you out of stealth ever. It was the best thing to happen to rogues in WoW history.

[candid tide]

DH and Evoker was inspired by mobile idle games

[gilded gulch]

oh

we're talking the conduit

XDDDD

[steel scarab]

That ability was a massive mistake

[gilded gulch]

the 2s hero conduit

[jolly sierra]

ahhhh that is the stealth shield

yeye i loved it

[gilded gulch]

tbh if you played with a priest who had half a brain

[grave basin]

You can tell who's only a rogue one trick by liking cloaked in shadows

[gilded gulch]

they shielded you on re

anyway

most good priests would pws you as you go for re

[steel scarab]

I've only ever played a rogue and I know that was a mistake

[jolly sierra]

i used to macro both vanish w fleshcraft

was a very good strategy imo

[candid tide]

Lmao

[steel scarab]

That said, DOTs that last 20+ seconds is not healthy design for a class that depends on stealth

[grave basin]

Stealth was like 5 seconds cd too so COS would break and you can spam stealth non stop and keep getting it back

[outer sky]

no, no it was not. Rogue never felt better than when we had that.

[candid tide]

Thats why they made subterfuge

[outer sky]

I can be convinced of many things

but not this

I'm firmly on team cloaked in shadows

[steel scarab]

It was massively OP, starlink

[worthy crag]

I mean, ofc rogue never felt better

[steel scarab]

I played that season

[worthy crag]

it was op as fuck

[grave basin]

Something can good for rogues but bad for the game overall

[gilded gulch]

shadowy duel

[candid tide]

Whats the most op expansion for rog

[gilded gulch]

cata

[steel scarab]

Vanilla before any patches

[grave basin]

Cata

Not even. Close

[jolly sierra]

u guys remember hunter mark + shadowy duel in early SL?

[candid tide]

Df assa season 1?

[gilded gulch]

nahh

[worthy crag]

idk, everone seems to be forgetting wod combat rogue

me red buff me killing spree me 9 sec kidney

[jolly sierra]

DF s1 has ret as best contender for strongest incarnation overall in that season

[candid tide]

Ye cata is madness

[gilded gulch]

wasnt late cata rlx literally

cheap

your lock procs cunning

dead

[grave basin]

Problem was it took forever to ramp

[outer sky]

idk call me crazy but I think stopping a rogue from restealthing for any meaningful period of time should require a bit more than "okay I tagged the rogue with a 45 second Purge the Wicked DoT"

[grave basin]

I mean wod combat rogue

Took forever to get red buff

[steel scarab]

The objectively correct answer is vanilla before any patches, before Diminishing Returns were patched into the game.

[outer sky]

that conduit made it actually feel half way balanced to be reliant on stealth

[gilded gulch]

tbh wod combat

gets overshadowed

by wod turbo

[grave basin]

All I want are banners back for arms

[gilded gulch]

I wish that guy didnt delete his vod

[grave basin]

Those you place on the floor

[gilded gulch]

where he played priest turbo with his friends

[grave basin]

And you can intervene

[gilded gulch]

communicating in only caveman grunts

all game

[grave basin]

Your own banners

[gilded gulch]

at like 2.5

[candid tide]

Ive never seen any abilty melt through pain suppression like butter

[grave basin]

In the modern age wod combat won't work

As soon as you get red buff the enemy gets a massive HOOOOOONK

[gilded gulch]

wod combat was why you can now get

cc'ed on spree

[grave basin]

and you get every micro cc thrown on you

[gilded gulch]

it used to be cc immune

before that season

[grave basin]

Yea that was kino

And it teleported you with the enemy

Didn't place you back to your starting point

Long gone are those days

[gilded gulch]

it used to be a glyph

[grave basin]

Now it's jumping through 50 hoops to do dam with 29 modifiers

[gilded gulch]

if it teleported you

[steel scarab]

Yeah the stacking of sixteen modifiers in order to kill someone does not feel good

I get that it artificially makes games longer, and I guess that makes losing feel a little less bad than getting 1 shotted or whatever

[grave basin]

It's mostly for pve

[outer sky]

i mean guys, come on. Someone's gotta agree with me here. I know we've kinda moved past this but it is way too braindead effortless to keep a rogue out of stealth in this game. 1 global to apply a 30-45s DoT shouldnt do it. We should have something that guarntees stealth protection for some period of time.

[steel scarab]

But I think the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction

I think they do it for pve, but for pvp too

@outer sky it should be a pvp talent. Veiled in Darkness: Debuffs on us last a max of 10 seconds

See, I fixed it

[outer sky]

that sounds even more broken than the OG cloaked in shadows

[grave basin]

CoS can come back if DH gets the blade dance immune back

[outer sky]

for classes that rely on DoTs

[gilded gulch]

also

[grave basin]

[steel scarab]

They just reapply them

[gilded gulch]

subterfuge exists

[steel scarab]

Every class has infinite mana

[gilded gulch]

which is why its easy

to keep rogues

[grave basin]

Also why every Rog is a nelf

[steel scarab]

Mana management is barely a thing anymore

[grave basin]

Except for james

[gilded gulch]

hes a male nelf

[steel scarab]

LOL I respect that you remember I'm a human

[gilded gulch]

last i checked

[outer sky]

if subterfuge is a suitable replacement then there should be no issue with bringing back cloaked in shadows. It would be redundant

[gilded gulch]

kinda wierd

idk that conduit made restealths too braindead

just have healer dispel

[steel scarab]

I hit 2400 as human last season

[outer sky]

dispell rupture?

or rend

[steel scarab]

One of the proud like, 6 people that did that

[gilded gulch]

rend isnt 40seconds

[outer sky]

theres plenty of nondispellable dots is my point

even if the absorb only lasted like 10s

fine

[gilded gulch]

have priest pws

[outer sky]

i'm tired of getting chased around pillars by disc priests because their mission in life is to put a DoT on me so I cant slip into stealth

its just stupid

make it not matter

[gilded gulch]

its a team game?

[outer sky]

then one of their teammates should keep me out

[candid tide]

which expansion have the best dueling

[grave basin]

Wrath

[gilded gulch]

idk if thei healer is chasing you

sounds like a recipe to put them in a bad spot

and go for kill

[candid tide]

when rogs could stil vanish blinds

[grave basin]

Yep

[candid tide]

well nowadays we can meld it too

[gilded gulch]

chasing rmx teams behind los is a recipe for disaster

especially away from your own team

[outer sky]

ok give me back cloaked in shadows then. That way they wont get into that situation and they'll win. See? Its a nerf to rogues.

[gilded gulch]

i dont care for 1v1s

[candid tide]

man Mamut rogs duels were sicko

[gilded gulch]

its too easy to restealth in modern wow

[candid tide]

did you know through 1v1 you gonna get real good in arena

[gilded gulch]

in old days yes

modern wow not so much....

[vocal surge]

This is still the case today

[gilded gulch]

i feel playing alts helps more

[outer sky]

how?

[gilded gulch]

shiv for improved crippling

run around pillar

re

[vocal surge]

I apply all the knowledge I learn in 1v1ing lads and 1v2ing to my arena games and just wrecking ball people when everything just lines up

[gilded gulch]

gg

[candid tide]

yeah i just hope they take another step into it and add dueling cd reset for it : D

[outer sky]

what about the 30 dots you have on you?

[gilded gulch]

you still have time before it knocks you

[vocal surge]

^

[gilded gulch]

can just re again with how trivial it is in this game now

[vocal surge]

If you're fast on the draw

[outer sky]

you have as long as it takes for one to tick

[vocal surge]

you can sap people chasing you

[gilded gulch]

and you sap them before they can put you back in

[grave basin]

What's your ign

[steel scarab]

Yeah, knowing which 14 buffs each dps class has to line up to kill you is more important than being exceptionally gifted at your class now.

I remember when being caught out of stealth was a death sentence, now it's just like, whoops I lost the opener teehee, doesn't even matter, this match is gonna last 7 minutes

[grave basin]

@vocal surge

[outer sky]

if its that easy why cant I have my conduit back

sounds like it wouldnt make a difference

[gilded gulch]

because its dumb to re and just afk in stealth

[vocal surge]

Lynthania if you want to look up my old ratings, Wersarcht for my new main

[gilded gulch]

for 10 minutes

probably

[orchid plinth]

How are duels nowadays? I dueled a lot during Vanilla - Wrath but it felt like it got way worse when every class got heals etc

[outer sky]

how about for 10 seconds while I wait for DRs?

[orchid plinth]

I dueled a frost mage yesterday they never casted and I died

[gilded gulch]

thats still inherently too easy

compared to how it used to be

genuinely speaking subterfuge dumbed down rogue

ALOT

[steel scarab]

It absolutely did, but they had to

[grave basin]

Loads of things were good for some classes but bad for the game

Like DH blade dance dodge

Prime example

[steel scarab]

With how long matches are, with how omnipresent aoe is, with how long dots last and how every class has them, subterfuge was necessary

[grave basin]

Or taste for blood warriors

[outer sky]

a lot of shit has been dumbed down though. That was necessary.

[candid tide]

do you guys use that clear the witness shuriken storms with deathstalker hero talent?

[gilded gulch]

im going to be honest

the only reason subterfuge is "necessary" is theres too many random aoes

from doing a dps rotation

[outer sky]

and how do you do this when youre constantly slowed? youll move 2 feet before your shiv slow wares off

[gilded gulch]

match length has 0 to do with its necessity

[steel scarab]

Stealth used to be super meaningful and powerful. Getting a good opener and combo was devastating. Now matches are so long because each individual button press has less meaning than ever, largely because healers are so incredibly powerful that it's impossible to kill anything outside of specific windows

[gilded gulch]

Yeah and restealthing has become trivial

what's your point

[steel scarab]

Right

[gilded gulch]

we also used to rp walk in stealth

[steel scarab]

I'm agreeing

Yes, and stealth had a 10s cooldown

[gilded gulch]

like stealth cd now is what

2 seconds?

or some shit

[steel scarab]

2

[orchid plinth]

Yeah I really dislike all the "garbage" in the game. All the AoEs, every class having 10 pets. Arena feels more like a moshpit than an arena at times.

[steel scarab]

Honestly though

[cyan mural]

Maybe every single button press has less power, because there are more and more buttons you can have now

[potent pivot]

nah

[steel scarab]

It should never have been 10, that was obscene

[candid tide]

wow has become somewhat much QOL implemented

[gilded gulch]

like you cant have so many stealth protections in a wow where

the restealth window is so easy

[candid tide]

but whaazz says he thinks pvp has become more difficul than in the past idk

[gilded gulch]

to achieve

[nova viper]

Guys i need help Any video how to play rogue? I dont foookin remember and i do nothing

[candid tide]

aye

[grave basin]

Watch streams @nova viper

[cyan mural]

!guide

[lethal roost]

Rogue Guides:
WoWhead: https://www.wowhead.com/classes#rogue
Icy Veins: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/class-guides
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides

[potent pivot]

those are pve guides

[grave basin]

Kek

[nova viper]

i wanna pvp guides

pve is lame

[outer sky]

I'm of the opinion that stealth should be easy, protected, and not the least bit subject to player skill.

[candid tide]

pvp = pve

[grave basin]

Watch some palumor or kalvish

[gilded gulch]

i mean assa is basically pve

with watching stun drs

[cyan mural]

yeah, if he does nothing, he does not know how the spec works, and these guides explain the basic of how to do dmg with your spec

[potent pivot]

no one has made up to date videos, iceyveins pvp guides are linked in the pins

[potent pivot]

there's pvp guides that do the same tho

[gilded gulch]

tbh most melee you should have a grasp

on how to do dam

[potent pivot]

but they show the rotations that are more geared toward pvp

[gilded gulch]

first

[nova viper]

I watched pikaboo or I feel like he presses 15 more buttons than any other rogues

[gilded gulch]

he doesnt really

[grave basin]

He doesn't though

[gilded gulch]

he just narrates

[potent pivot]

yeah if ur brand new check out iceyveins pvp guides first

[worthy crag]

hes not the best source to learn how to play rogue

[gilded gulch]

most other rogues at this level just stream no comms

[potent pivot]

get a handle on things, then watch ppl

[gilded gulch]

at most have trufigcd installed

[grave basin]

Watch our man

The people's champ

pshero

[gilded gulch]

isnt pshero a classic andy

[nova viper]

I mean i play rogue in SL but i switch to mage on DF and now i feel sooooo bad when i back

[potent pivot]

this chat is full of bad ideas tonight

holy

[candid tide]

is pshero still considered good in arena?

[gilded gulch]

gonna be honest

[grave basin]

There's no rated

[gilded gulch]

playing mage at a decent level is probably harder

[nova viper]

pshero play openworld pvp and bg now

[gilded gulch]

than playing rogue

mage forces you to understand drs alot sooner

than most melee

[vocal surge]

^

[grave basin]

With this current design of frost mage I disagree

[nova viper]

true, but if u "medium" player u can just do dmg on mage and do more than bad rogue

[vocal surge]

Anyone can perform a normal mage rotation

[candid tide]

cause of sheep

[gilded gulch]

Idk can you really win on mage

[grave basin]

Frost mage rn is the most training wheels version

[gilded gulch]

just pveing people

[vocal surge]

But what I find extremely skillful is utilizing everything you can on Mage

[outer sky]

most classes right now are about as dumbed down as theyve ever been

[grave basin]

Yea but when all your dam is one button and it cleaves

[gilded gulch]

yep

mage is one of those classes that sees more high end play

than low

[vocal surge]

They get run down so easily in low play

[candid tide]

mages and rogs are the iconic duo of pvp

[potent pivot]

idk if i'd agree with that one

[gilded gulch]

ask a 1600 max mage

to db sheep

[grave basin]

1600 max rogue performs worse than 1600 Max mage

[worthy crag]

it just depends what season

[outer sky]

they need to add some kind of downside to blink to help balance out their mobility. like "after you blink you die" or something

[worthy crag]

go back to bfa season 4 when full haste corruption mages were casting 1.7 sec gpyros 35 globals in a row with a destro lock in 3s

[grave basin]

They need to reduce alter to 4 seconds and. Be unpurgable

[gilded gulch]

oh yeah i mean

when mlx is dominant i feel mage skill floor is much lower

[potent pivot]

pretty sure every class is pretty decently represented at all cr levels

[grave basin]

Alter single handedly making them immortal into non purge teams

[gilded gulch]

But when their good comps are all go based

Then theres abominations

like bfa assa rog

kidney toxic blade off dr

[vocal surge]

SL S3/4 Outlaw

[grave basin]

I'm gonna coom

[gilded gulch]

idk bfa assa fire rmpal

was some peak braindead

[vocal surge]

being dumbed down so hard you only needed to know 3 buttons

[grave basin]

S3 outlaw was peak gameplay

SL s3

[orchid plinth]

You know the game is weird when just PvEs

[gilded gulch]

that was bfa yes

[steel scarab]

Recent ret paladins? Recent demon hunters???

Incredibly brain dead

[gilded gulch]

SL s3 outlaw was

something else

[grave basin]

A good ret and a bad ret is like miles apart

[gilded gulch]

i played mirrors though and other rogue did zdps

[grave basin]

A bad ret just larps as a holy warrior

[gilded gulch]

bfa dh was worse

[vocal surge]

Like SL S1 and S2 Outlaw was fun

[gilded gulch]

than df dh

[vocal surge]

But S3 and S4 was "Why"

[outer sky]

the issue is that theyve dumbed everything down to much that playing a set up comp is hardly, if any, more rewarding than playing a button mashing zug comp. So why bother. For RM to be worth playing in this state of the game it basically has to be PvE. Cuz if not why even bother

[steel scarab]

An average ret that 2 shots people while cosplaying

[gilded gulch]

also

worst dh comp is still

sinister season

dhdk

[grave basin]

Hero cleave was good recently

[gilded gulch]

you stun rifted the healer off dr

eventually just won off mana

every time

[orchid plinth]

Yeah I need to catch up with the times

[gilded gulch]

actually in s1 bfa you could mana rift priests with just vengeful retreaet

they didnt have enough mobility to get out before it went off

[grave basin]

Anytime DH/x is meta the game just goes to shit though

DH boomy

DH demo

DH dk

[gilded gulch]

i would say similar about dk comps

[grave basin]

Just runs you over with 50000dps

[gilded gulch]

but call me crazy

[outer sky]

the biggest abomination in wow pvp history was probably ret in SL with WoG tbh

[candid tide]

and then ret gets buffed mid season

[grave basin]

The KWOK

In s1

Hehe I just divine tolled their entire team