#pvp

1 messages · Page 262 of 1

severe helm
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their sub rmp is so strong

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its one of many reasons hahaha

potent pivot
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i just think what ppl play in awc is kind of a pointless conversation when you're talking about the ladder

severe helm
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its part of a large picture

worthy crag
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But yeah, at the end of the day, you just have to feel for yourself what itd be like to play sub with a cooldown on cheap shot

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Honestly dont know what else to say

severe helm
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look I love rogue and love playing rogue and getting to stun the whole planet but I have friends who dont play rogue and who find rogue very frustrating to play against and I try to empathize with them

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there are parts of rogue that def feel overly opressive and very unfun on the receiving end

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and I think it wouldnt be the worst thing if those aspects got slightly pruned without demolishing the entire class

worthy crag
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Im fine with addressing that issue by other avenues, just "putting a cd on cheap" is not the right avenue lol

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there are other avnues like removing duel or nerfing blades

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You gotta know the spec at a fairly deep level to see which part of it can be nerfed imo

severe helm
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I mean thats just sub specific stuff I dont think that solves subs issue entirely tbh they kinda need a whole damage breakdown rework

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the spammable garrote silence is also pretty op and for sure contributed to assas dominance this past season

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actually ill ammend that and say *sometimes spammable

worthy crag
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Yeah well, i wont speak for sin lol

severe helm
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sin felt like a free lunch this season hahahaha

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removing dance is gona be weird though going forward for sin

worthy crag
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Just kinda weird looking at their dmg breakdown to see garrote and rupture beat the dmg output of next 11 spells combined

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when other classes and specs have to rotate a shit ton of things

severe helm
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yeaaaah

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and garrote was aoe

potent pivot
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imo the entire class needs an full redesign

severe helm
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we just got one didnt we haha

potent pivot
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what? no

worthy crag
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Im personally not a fan of the DF season 2 rework

outer sky
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What exactly were you hoping to accomplish here btw? Because what you did is something I've always found extremely cringe. Deliberately showing up in a class specific discord just to tell everyone you think the class should be nerfed. And not just nerfed, but gutted of a core feature it's had for years on end. Couple this with the fact that the class is majorly underrepresented and undertuned on beta. Did you think you'd get a standing ovation? Free movie tickets? A WoW token? Like I'd never even consider doing something like that even in the pally discord when ret was 1 tap healing everyone with WoG. Unless there's a major bug exploit happening then the whole concept of what just went on here over the last 20 minutes or so is really cringey. I mean, don't you have anything better to do besides go to random WoW class discords and let everyone know you think their preferred class in the game should be nerfed? Obviously you're entitled to your opinion and this discord is public so, so be it. But it's in really poor taste and personally I don't understand it. If anything take that to the forums. Doing it here just makes it look like you're trying to get a rise out of people.

severe helm
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s3 all 3 specs got redesigned

potent pivot
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no

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they did not

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they got a tiny rework

worthy crag
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Hey, there's your can of worms

potent pivot
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even DF launch wasn't a redesign

worthy crag
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I warned you

severe helm
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in a discord

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for the sake of discussion

worthy crag
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Wouldn't say it's a tiny rework

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I mean, a rework is a rework

potent pivot
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an actual redesign is changing how the class works

severe helm
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lol

worthy crag
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I just don't really like the way it went

potent pivot
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not just talents

worthy crag
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I dont like thistle tea

severe helm
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I mean the worms seemed to spill mostly on one person at least

worthy crag
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I dont like dark brew

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etc

severe helm
worthy crag
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I dont like backstab suddenly chunking up half of my energy bar

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when it used to be like 28

severe helm
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subs resource economy is so feast or famine

worthy crag
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wanna kill a totem? xd too bad

worthy crag
severe helm
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LOL but im literally a rogue main

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and I have this opinion

worthy crag
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or a warrior discord and tell them bladestorm needs to be removed

hollow carbon
worthy crag
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and one thing you have to remember about sub is

severe helm
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like you can reduce an annoyance without costing enjoyment

worthy crag
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sub is like one of the very few specs in the entire game that get punished when it's using its ccs defensively

severe helm
worthy crag
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a demo casting axe toss while they are stunned

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isnt punishing himself

severe helm
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but it also doesnt get punished momentum wise for running

worthy crag
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neither is a lock that throws coil as a micro cc to disrupt the enemy setup

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but if sub uses a cheap shot to stop an enemy go

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all hell breaks loose

severe helm
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I feel so cringe playing sub just afking and pillaring until drs are back up

worthy crag
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gl not getting a full cheap on them for the next 18 seconds

severe helm
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at least as assa/outlaw you have to stay in

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it feels like youre playing the game more correctly haha

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its like how frost dk dev plays

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it feeeels wrong lol

worthy crag
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So, consider these factors that are exclusive to sub

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then telling them that they need a CD on cheap is not gonna get received warmly

severe helm
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I still think it opens up the spec to be balanced more healthily

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I think people get scared cuz they think they would ge tnothing in reutnr

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return*

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but im not suggesting they get nothing in return

worthy crag
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yeah but like

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the reason sub plays by running and resetting instead of staying in

severe helm
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I think its just a first step towards having the spec function in a more cohesive way

worthy crag
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is more because of how badly they get punished by staying in, rather than how they benefit from running

severe helm
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Yeah I guess there are people who are hard set on that hit and run playstyle

worthy crag
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no

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thats opposite of my point

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they HAVE to hit and run

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they dont have this "stay in" option

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period

severe helm
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yeah but you can give them that option

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I was suggesting sub lands somewhere in the middle of current sub and current outlaw

worthy crag
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but they don't have that option currently so you can't tell them that they also need spammable CS taken away lol

severe helm
outer sky
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One of these days I'll get super drunk and be bored enough to spend my time in the warlock discord telling them all coil and fear should be on the same DR instead of taking it to the forums where the devs are much more likely to actually read it. Just to see how they respond.

severe helm
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coil really should be on stun dr

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lets be honest

worthy crag
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Im curious on like what'd be the most infuriating thing to say about a given class in their own pvp discord

hollow carbon
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mewo did find it out i guess 😛

worthy crag
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"polymorph shouldnt remove dots"

severe helm
hollow carbon
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give polymorph a CD Kappa

severe helm
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I mean ive said this plenty of times in the outlaw channel

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it isnt as harshly taken lol

worthy crag
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well the class specific channels are more concerned with raid and keys no?

potent pivot
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Outlaw channel is unhinged

severe helm
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tru

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lol

worthy crag
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and cheap shot is probably the 95th thing on their mind

severe helm
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pvp channels are always more sensitive

hollow carbon
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rogue is kinda fine, its not super oppressive in general i feel

severe helm
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pvp is a touchy subject for some people I think

hollow carbon
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i like having specs which are good if played well

worthy crag
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"make traps take 2 seconds to trigger like in vanilla"

hollow carbon
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its annoying to play against lower skill ceiling specs that just owns cause of tuning ya know

worthy crag
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im gonna be real honest, I dont think I can come up with a more infuriating one than "give cheap a cooldown"

severe helm
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"make dark pact not usable in stun"

outer sky
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On beta every rogue spec is suffering

severe helm
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in pvp or pve

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cuz pvp outlaw seems pretty strong atm

outer sky
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Both

severe helm
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cuz they giga buffed killing spree

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sub seems ass though yeah

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havent seen anyone play assa cuz dance gone

worthy crag
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its fine, i can live as a mage's pet for another 2 years

outer sky
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Outlaw is the best of the 3 but it's mid tier at best, if that

severe helm
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better than it was in s4 hahaha

worthy crag
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so will I stop seeing the sin afflock multidot pve fest?

severe helm
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but itd prob be outlaw affi

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the instant cast shadow bolts are murdering people

worthy crag
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eh, if anything like udk afflo

outer sky
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@severe helm you mentioned people being concerned about getting nerfed hard without getting anything in return. Do remember that in BFA S1 sub rogue received the single biggest nerf of any class or spec in wow history and was compensated with nothing. Sounds like a reasonable concern to me.

worthy crag
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as long as i dont see sin afflo, its an abomination

severe helm
worthy crag
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Yeah, the echoring reprimand nerf was a bit unwarranted, I still remember that

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like the degree of the nerf it received

severe helm
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My suggestion was to help solve the balance problems sub has where it feels bad or broken

outer sky
worthy crag
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oh you said bfa s1

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you sure? BFA s1 had pretty good balance

outer sky
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I'm sure

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Very very sure

worthy crag
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I mean sub didn't do damage but it was still good, as weird as it sounds

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cuz they stacked 3 azerite traits of the faction specific one

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which left a mark on the target

severe helm
worthy crag
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and ur team could proc them

severe helm
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hahahahah

worthy crag
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tbh BFA season 1 was one of the better seasons in wow's history

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and undoubtely the best season in bfa

severe helm
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alright ready for another hot take that might trigger someone?

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this ones less targeted though dont worry

worthy crag
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If you wanted to be stylish and impactful with other than a generic azerite trait then yeah it sucked I guess

severe helm
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I think the meta is always the best when its ranged + melee + healer, cleaves either melee cleave or caster cleave both suck to play against and make the meta feel bad

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wonder if theyll ever enforce melee + ranged as comp requirement

worthy crag
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They won't force it, but blizz generally tries to direct the meta toward ranged/melee hybrid

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whether they are successful is a whole another story

severe helm
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melee + ranged just feels like how pvp is supposed to be played

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mage lock and ret war both make my eyes bleed to play against

worthy crag
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and it's an issue that will never ever truly be bridged between ladder and competition

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because pros need just that 0.05% edge on casters to cater to double caster and beat everything else

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while most people on ladder dont

severe helm
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yeaaah frost mage destro rdruid just has that unreal synergy

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its not usually on ladder cuz the wincon is simply too long lol

outer sky
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So, back then sub rogue used to have a passive ability called "shuriken combo". And what it did was cause shuriken storm to buff the damage of your next eviscerate by 7% per target hit by that shuriken storm. This was very powerful in pvp but also situatuonally in pve. The raid at the time was Uldir and it had 8 bosses. The 6th boss, Zul, so not the last boss or even the second to last boss, but the 3rd to last boss, on mythic had phases where he would summon a ton of adds around him that were pretty beefy but not super high kill priority. Because of shuriken combo, sub rogues were able to use those adds to absolutely delete the boss. It got so bad that they nerfed shuriken combo from 7% per stack to 5%. But sub rogues still kept deleting Zul, who again, isn't even the last fucking boss. So, blizzard then just removed shuriken combo from the game completely. Totally gone. And they gave sub rogues 0 buffs to compensate afterwards. So because that passive made sub really OP for that one, not even final boss fight, they deleted one of the best passive skills from the game, never to be seen again, and with nothing to supplement the loss.

worthy crag
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Oh that

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Yeah I remember

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ehh, it wasnt that bad

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Well, it was bad if you were looking at damage output from the rogue itself

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but you could work around it by stacking the faction azerite trait

outer sky
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I still wake up in tears thinking about it man

worthy crag
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and let your team do the dmg

outer sky
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How could they not give us anything

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IT WASNT EVEN THE CUTTING EDGE BOSS

worthy crag
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I dont mind sub's role being an enabler personally

outer sky
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Who cares about parses on the 6th out of 8 bosses

worthy crag
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well zul was a horribly designed boss and sub's aoe is also a mess

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but rogue also gets a free pass on a lot of other raid bosses/tiers due to their utility

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I stg there were like 7~9 rogues on kiljaeden pulls

outer sky
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I just don't agree with removing a strong passive like that with no buffs to go with it. And especially not if it's such an inconsequential boss

worthy crag
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That isnt even close to the hit they got in mop season 1 or legion season 1

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so it never really got to me

severe helm
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wasnt bfa when people were stacking 3 outlaws for mdi?

outer sky
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Because of reaping

worthy crag
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If i had to pick one arena season to be stuck with permanently, BFA season 1 would be pretty high on the list

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and then the expansion just went super downhill

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with bicycle/drestagath trinket and corruption

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and tank trinkets

severe helm
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pvp looked like a fucked up private server by the end of bfa

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mages spamming gpy

worthy crag
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corruption was a really good spice to pve

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pvp not so much

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unless you were a fire mage

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"watch me cast 1.7 sec gpy"

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"35 globals in a row"

outer sky
worthy crag
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also salty that sub rmx got replaced with wwmx with verse stacking windwalkers

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and arcane mages

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game is just so fking wrong when wwmx is the preferred choice over rmx

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also literally the most toxic comp to play against, maybe apart from frost mage double caster

outer sky
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I didn't really care much for the corruption aspect of the game either but I think for 1 season it was kinda fun just because it introduced an element to the game where anything could happen

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"Wait what killed the monk"

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"He got 3 thing from beyond procs"

indigo hill
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Rogue mage was always the most toxic shit to have against you.

worthy crag
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and so much inflation and so many people acting like glads with their bfa version of 2400+ 50 win diluted version

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but then again that got topped off with season 2 of SL

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so its not as bad now

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eh

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if I had to pick historically the most toxic comp in arenas

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it'd be godcomp with symbiosis

vestal cape
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dear god i miss symbiosis

worthy crag
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but then I guess thats going back like 11 years

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yeah no

vestal cape
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lol druids got fuckin teleport from locks iirc

outer sky
# indigo hill Rogue mage was always the most toxic shit to have against you.

In bfa S4? Nah dude it was fire mage/destro lock holy shit I still have nightmares. With all that haste they'd have you couldn't leave the pillar for 2 seconds or else you'd have 6 greater pyros and like 11 chaos bolts on their way to you while their MW monk is just half AFK channeling Soothing Mist without a care in the world

worthy crag
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yeah rmx wasnt really a thing during corrupted

vestal cape
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what about gushing wounds ele

worthy crag
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the mage had access to teaming up with a ww or a lock that rogue was so far down the list

vestal cape
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or dbl DH

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1 tappin you

worthy crag
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I felt bad just applying to a mage group on LFG like even asking them to consider me as an option

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because I knew that by accepting me they would be hampering their own chances

outer sky
vestal cape
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gpys for days

worthy crag
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Or like, if a mage did accept me, I'd automatically assume that they don't really know the meta and that they are kind of a bad mage LOL

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holy fk the paranoia was real

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yup, triple hoj

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And somehow SL managed to bring the bar even lower..

indigo hill
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I think over the current expansion hasn't been as much of a pain as seasons before. For me frost mage is the biggest annoyance. They just have to look at you and you're stuck. I wouldn't mind shadowstep having a root breaker

worthy crag
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I mean, rogue was good in SL but damn the seasons were just trash

outer sky
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And then every so often you'd queue into that off meta team and randomly get one shot by twilight devastation

indigo hill
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Sl s1 paladin. 😄

outer sky
worthy crag
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Yo you know what can of worms I can open right now

indigo hill
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I played it. Made some nice gold with boosting. Shortest games I've ever played. 😂

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I felt dirty the whole time.

worthy crag
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I'd rather take 75% dampening BFA meta any day over 3-health-bar-deleting burst gimmicks from SL

wanton breach
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i miss maneuvrability 😦

outer sky
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SL S1 playing RMP and the ret pally is free for 1 global at 40% dampening and he one shot heals his teammate to full with a single WoG

vestal cape
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divine toll

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word still gives me shivers

outer sky
worthy crag
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yeah SL seasons are not even worth reminiscing over for me

vestal cape
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wasnt enh like mega busted with the venthyr ability as well for a short while

worthy crag
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like at least in 75% dampener matches in bfa, you knew both teams knew what they were doing in order to drag out the match so long

outer sky
worthy crag
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in SL you just die to some random gimmick and its like "how is that even skill"

vestal cape
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yeah i rememeber it bittersweet as an aff main in s1 SL at the time lol

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2600 rated turbocleaves deleting my spriest

outer sky
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I played rogue that season so I had fun for about 2 weeks

vestal cape
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nothing i could do

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the only fun part for me was the corruption slow being bck

worthy crag
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Also, craven went unnerfed for like 17 months in SL

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the hunter feign death legendary

vestal cape
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was like playing a survival horror; if i get touched i die; but i now have a triple blink and perma slow which is cool ig lol

outer sky
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No the feign death legendary

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My god

vestal cape
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FUCK THAT

outer sky
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Any class with dots

vestal cape
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i forgot

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the dot clears

outer sky
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Yep

worthy crag
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hmmm good sir, i see that you have undergone quite an undeavor to put these 6 dots upon me

vestal cape
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yeah cupid was rough

worthy crag
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now, watch me as i press this one simple button

outer sky
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I just don't understand how shit like that gets approved to go live

vestal cape
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yeah; the only saving grace was that mindgames was so fucking busted and UA dispels hit so hard that if healer got set up on it was gg

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so that was only way around hunter teams

outer sky
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Anyone with any ounce of common sense can tell that would be broken

ocean silo
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Hey, how do you deal with orcs in 1v1? I can't fit 2 globals between the first 2 cheapshots

worthy crag
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you can't so fit in 1 global

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a good orc will have a huge upper hand on you in a duel

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esp if ur sub

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just accept it

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if i were doing rogue 1v1s and im orc and the enemy isnt

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I'm 99% sure I can just start the duel unstealthed and still win every single match

outer sky
ocean silo
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Okay so If I fit only 1 global, I just stand there until second CS?

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or is it better to open with KS?

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of course it depends on the situation, but generally speaking

outer sky
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You can't open with KS

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You don't have combo points

worthy crag
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Yeah it's better to just auto until the current stun is about to expire

outer sky
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What spec are you playing?

worthy crag
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Also leaving a gap in stuns on a 1v1 isn't really a huge deal depending on their class

ocean silo
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lets say sub, so shadowblades > SS > KS

worthy crag
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no

outer sky
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Open with a stun

ocean silo
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I'm open to cc so its bad ?

outer sky
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Cheap shot

ocean silo
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okay

worthy crag
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that means they have 1 second to react to seeing you pop blades

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like if its a shaman its fine

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depends on what class ur opponent is

outer sky
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He can blades in stealth and it won't pull him ouf

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Out *

worthy crag
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yeah im mostly referring to the SS global

outer sky
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Ah ok

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Yeah so Palumor taught me a ton about playing rogue and he and I were doing double dps 2s a while back as double rogue and I kept gapping my stuns. He eventually got frustrated and says "listen, when they're stunned, you can fuck them up and they can't fuck you up. So fucking keep them stunned as often as possible".

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That really struck a chord with me

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Changed my whole world view

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Words to live by

ocean silo
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That makes sense

worthy crag
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Yall are both lucky to not have endured the days of legion and orc relent

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cold blood cheap shot -> goremaw -> cheap shot -> cheap shot

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stun window gone

outer sky
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I wasn't invested enough to care though

worthy crag
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luckily blood elf racial was still a silence so

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i had an option of popping that to chain with the third stun

outer sky
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I played Belf in BFA

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I killed many hpals in my time by Belfing off divine favor mid cast and kicking them

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And that's when rogue kick was a 5s lockout

wanton breach
analog crater
wintry dew
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Yes

potent pivot
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Prepatch Builds

Assassination:

CMQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYMjZmxMDAAAAAAY2MmtZAAAAAAolthZYmxYmZWGDmZMzMzMzYG222GzwgNz2ADYJYZYCMsMA

Outlaw:

CQQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMDmZGzMwMzwMMYGzMjZmptZMLzAAAAAAwssNM8AzMzsxMLjBAAAgZmZgB2gZMaMbA2mwiB

Subtlety:

CUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMDAAAAAAY2mZmlpB2MGGjxMzMzMzMmtZZGjlthZYmxYMzyYAAAAYGGsZWGYALglhJkZhxA

potent pivot
gaunt elk
stoic spruce
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You cannot beat a rogue

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Yknow

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Most people talk shit about the classes or specs they play

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Or perhaps not kiting or whatever

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But to me, the race you play will determine how big the bullseye on you is.

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"You 0-6 because you're nelf, bozo"

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@halcyon timber yes it makes me feel better

halcyon timber
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What does? Banana pudding?

dapper chasm
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Is sub good in the next xpac? I know it's traditionally either unga or trash on resets

stoic spruce
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Banana pudding is huge tho

halcyon timber
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Idgaf if they are going to game 2

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Thats on them, they can make themselves miserable

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Banana pudding in the dining hall atm. Getting some more after this x ray class is done

stoic spruce
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I got coconut cream pie

halcyon timber
# dapper chasm Is sub good in the next xpac? I know it's traditionally either unga or trash on ...

We are shaping up ok. Its not 40% of someones life hurr hurr nonsense though. They just tuned us down a good bit. We will be alright.rogue finishers as a whole are like 10-15% of someones health depending on the class. We definitely need all cds to really hurt someone as hp has gone back to legion nonsense. Prob isn’t changing anytime soon and people are def still spreading nonsense anyway as per usual .

jolly bear
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how are you guys tracking DRs now that the addon is out of date and discontinued? i tried Teaa's dr tracker but that thing is cooked rn. hella errors and out of date

pale storm
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what is everyone using for DR tracking now?

halcyon timber
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Apparently there is a guy who picked it up but it is named something else.

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Some use Sarena as well I think but ive been using tell me when ever since the addon developer for diminish announced he was going to stop back in beta df

wintry dew
jolly bear
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how do you use TMW for that?

halcyon timber
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You set up the diminishing returns parameters

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I dig it as ive made custom stuff for everything in all content

wintry dew
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I don't use it for DR's but as a substitute to WA's (i've never used class / spec WAs)

halcyon timber
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Took like 5 min

jolly bear
wintry dew
halcyon timber
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Might be able to make WA track DRa but that would take custom scripting which i dunno how to do

jolly bear
halcyon timber
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Correct

jolly bear
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k im getting it

wintry dew
jolly bear
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is this on name plates, unitframes, or both

halcyon timber
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Comes up as a unit frame icon

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At some point ill spend time learning to write my own shit but i don’t have a lot of time atm

jolly bear
halcyon timber
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School is too busy and ive got too much art to catch up on

halcyon timber
jolly bear
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no like how tho

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like how did he actually change it

halcyon timber
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Through tmw?

jolly bear
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wait really

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wtf

halcyon timber
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Asking

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Looks like tmw or wa to me

wintry dew
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if im not mistaken its this, i got it from watching bahjeera's streams

image.png
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altought im not entirely sure because:

halcyon timber
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Yeh just install texts as usual for anything and then have to change files

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I just use elv tmw and wa for custom art and uhhh

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Immersion thats the name

outer sky
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@potent pivot did we ever get specific info on yesterday's nerfs?

jolly bear
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oh yeah how bad is that kidney nerf?

muted abyss
marble crag
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Hi guys just a question, as assa on pvp do you take the 2 extra combo points from the talent trees? I see in the icy veins guide they take it but all the people i see it play on youtube arent. And in pvp i guess it kinda makes sense since encounters are shorter and you can just reaply the dots. But doesnt it reduce significantly the duration of kidney or is it capped anyway in pvp regardless of points spent?

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relatively new to the spec but i wanna main it i tww i think

muted abyss
marble crag
muted abyss
jolly bear
plucky escarp
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I think people are playing deeper strat and the assa deeper strat now on beta.

muted abyss
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Yeah, also we are a week away from the xapc launch, so it will all be moot anyways

halcyon timber
# jolly bear oh yeah how bad is that kidney nerf?

Its on the live game as they merged beta into live for transitioning next week. It just makes things a little tighter. No rushing stuff just to rush it etc. other people do dr your shit as always though so kinda irritating regardless.

marble crag
# muted abyss yeah, just look at murlok.io for talents tbh

that hasnt helped me much. Some of the top dont have it,.some do, and some have gone for only 6 combo points lol. I might leave it since i would be losing a lot of envenom damage for little gain. Hm dont know ill try this afternoon a couple alternative builds without them and see

muted abyss
marble crag
#

it obviously doesnt matter much since people at the very top pf the spec have very different builds

#

cant make much of a difference when they are all at the top can it :p

dapper chasm
#

I meant how do we compare

#

Like, are we SSStylish tier?

wintry dew
severe helm
#

Its hard to say cuz people are mainly doing shuffle on beta and sub is always an interesting one in shuffle

dapper chasm
#

Power through that difficulty

severe helm
#

whaaz did some shuffles as sub and ofc murdered people

#

but does that mean its good? idk

dapper chasm
#

Well, I appreciate your honesty

#

Takes a big man to step up and say that he doesn't know

severe helm
#

what hurts sub the most is that fire sucks right now LOL

dapper chasm
#

But it does leave me lost and with my nothing but my dick in my hands

dapper chasm
severe helm
#

ah well in bgs sub is always SSSSS tier

dapper chasm
#

Well, that's true, we are the master race after all

severe helm
#

duel is too broken for capping nodes

dapper chasm
#

Duel for capping? What happened to sap?

#

What does duel bring to the table?

severe helm
#

its just another option

#

the enemy cant target your teammate through duel

#

you duel, they cap

dapper chasm
#

Duel can be used on friendlies?

#

Oh, like that

severe helm
#

you duel the enemy

dapper chasm
#

I thought you meant like duel and then blind or something

#

I swear they made sap shorter though

#

So it might help

halcyon timber
#

Sap is 5s still, kidney is 5s for 30s cd gouge is 3s and 25s cd.

waxen meteor
#

gauge is a bit like joke now tbh

halcyon timber
#

If some lazy bum can’t throw one of the 400 michael bay aoe attacks into duel then that is on them

waxen meteor
#

dh -> range gauge, doesn't have to be on face, 4s, ban heal, doesn't get broken
rogue -> melee , signle direction, 3s, doesn't ban anything, can be broken easily from anything including own dots

halcyon timber
#

Yeah i just accept it , im not bothering getting excited about anything. Not going to be a pos doomer either but yeah.

#

It sucks but it’s whatever

waxen meteor
#

my honest opinion, the designers need to do a better job

halcyon timber
#

As long as core damage does well i dfaf

#

Idgaf*

waxen meteor
#

remove the identity and also make them still not right

halcyon timber
#

Its just propaganda from other classes griping constantly is all

worthy crag
#

sap is 5?

halcyon timber
#

Yeh or nameate timer was effed up yesterday

#

Nameplate

#

Prob s6s

outer sky
#

Sorry if that's out of context I didn't read anything earlier in the convo

waxen meteor
#

sap is still 6

#

but anyway, it's opening skill you use once a game

outer sky
#

In an RBG, clicking cap has no interaction with the GCD. If the enemy base sitter is dumb enough to be standing close enough to the flag, you can sap and click cap at the same time and finish the cap before sap falls off

waxen meteor
#

rare cases you can trick people to do another sap

halcyon timber
#

I steal in normal bgs too

#

Just people are dumb and thats on them

waxen meteor
#

we just took many many nerfs along the way

halcyon timber
#

Had a warlock literally bopping his beepo or something at lumber mill as he watched stables

waxen meteor
#

in rbg, if single person guarding cap/base without pet, we are dominating

halcyon timber
#

Stole that flag

waxen meteor
#

you can't trinket kidney/stun

#

otherwise you get blind or blind/sap and base is ours

#

now

halcyon timber
#

Fail to see why that is our probl

waxen meteor
halcyon timber
#

And why people cannot team sit

#

And use logic

#

Instead of being an ape reading meters

waxen meteor
#

regardless, i feel we are less and less rogue

#

feeling a bit depressed

halcyon timber
#

Im fine w fairness but wheres the fairness for rogue?

#

Feral can 4.1m bite on beta while we are around 1.2m on crits with everything in the tank for all 3 rogues

outer sky
#

We're actually really OP in blitz if anyone cares about that

#

Because cap time in blitz is only 4s

#

That means you can cap on 2 people

#

Blind one kidney the other

#

And cap

indigo hill
#

That is a great plan if the hunters don't hunter.

halcyon timber
#

If some moron doesn’t respond appropriately yeah. Been that way all of DF blit nothing new

outer sky
halcyon timber
#

Agreed

indigo hill
#

Did a blitz the other day. The panda with the 5 bases. Mage near flag, i sap, i'm about to cap the farm. Hunter does hunter thing and takes mage out of sap, she stops me from capping. GG

waxen meteor
halcyon timber
#

Oh i will throw my neighbor down all 5flights of stairs

#

Blitz and idiots piss me off

#

Hunters / dks / rets

#

Absolutely biggest fucking idiots around

#

Btw @outer sky i think moonkin + dh are getting buffed like we were talking w the boys last night

#

Can’t put my finger on why / how but some intuition says they are going to be buffed into s2 nonsense shortly after launch . Also hope fishing is good so far man.

waxen meteor
#

do we know if dh is reallying getting a new legendary?

#

there are too many trollings at DH discord, i cant tell if they serious

halcyon timber
#

Usually i find stuff like that as an artist

#

I haven’t seen any models / textures / files

#

They are making shit up as usual

#

We have encrypted cdn but obv can’t read it or touch it. Blizz already said it was the next patch stuff though

#

Standard stuff which that’s good, keeps the leakers out

indigo hill
#

Which hero spec seems most likely to be the one for outlaw pvp?

outer sky
#

fatebound

#

and it's not even close

#

fatebound outlaw is probably the best spec/hero tree combo we have available

#

especially with the deathstalker nerfs

#

speaking of deathstalker nerfs, do we have any notes on that?

#

Reading over trickster, it MAY be playable in to WW monks and maybe arms warriors

#

just so you cant get parried

#

but probably now

#

not*

halcyon timber
#

No sir just undocumented changes but we are tracking for sure

outer sky
#

WHAT THE FUCK!

#

I just got DCd from beta

#

logged back in and all my characters are gone

halcyon timber
#

Are you on 11?

outer sky
#

The server ive been playing on is gone

#

yes I am

halcyon timber
#

Oh they took 11 doen

outer sky
#

when it existed

halcyon timber
#

Down*

#

Gotcha

outer sky
#

what the actual fuck

halcyon timber
#

We did our job, time to exfil rogues. Going home.

#

They have the new launch server for focused testing and the leveling realms. Gotcha.

outer sky
#

so that server is gone for good?

#

I have to remake my characters

halcyon timber
#

Yes sir

outer sky
#

and level all the profs again

#

wtf

halcyon timber
#

For focused testing

#

Normal on betas

outer sky
#

at least give me a head's up

halcyon timber
#

Far better thsn bfa testing

#

And SL beta was nuts too

outer sky
#

wtf is focused testing

waxen meteor
#

to test a specific portion of a program

outer sky
#

the part where they actually pay attention?

halcyon timber
#

Where devs are looking for specific stuff as a functions test

#

Yes , its why deephaul ravine was available but other bgs werent

waxen meteor
#

for example, this is a reasonable time to have you free labor to work on launch content

#

the day1 live

halcyon timber
#

Yep

#

Kinda like the dumb dumbs who went to 11 and kept raging about not going to the new world when the specific testing notes said that is only on the leveling realms

outer sky
#

what do I even do right now

waxen meteor
outer sky
#

I just cant play beta?

waxen meteor
#

and get back to live version

halcyon timber
#

Correct, just lay in wait till our revenge begins and we carry out operation net gun

outer sky
waxen meteor
#

kekdog if you can't beat them, join them

halcyon timber
#

Partly yeah

#

:/

outer sky
halcyon timber
waxen meteor
#

alt build = 3 hours

#

class identify = none

#

then

#

just play the meta

halcyon timber
#

At least perverts can take off their pants now

#

5% cc gem is still lame too

#

Better than when it was 15% but hot dang man

outer sky
#

yeah that gem shouldnt exist IMO

#

you shouldnt ever feel like setting up a CC chain is punishing for your own team

#

in any way

#

or at least give it like a 1m ICD

worthy crag
#

Whats this about a cc gem?

#

ah googled it

outer sky
#

There's a gem you can socket your gear with

#

Gives main stat

#

And 5% reduced damage taken for 6s after being CCd

worthy crag
#

Can you have 1 pvp gem at a time or can you slot all three?

outer sky
#

Only 1

halcyon timber
#

Multi gems

outer sky
#

No it's only 1

halcyon timber
#

For jewelry

#

Meta gem is 1

outer sky
#

It's like main stat gem on live

halcyon timber
#

Yeh like old meta gems

outer sky
#

You can gave several of the same secondary stat gems

#

But like

halcyon timber
#

Yeh fer de rings and stuff

outer sky
#

You can't play the CC gem and precog gem at the same time

worthy crag
#

That sounds fine then, esp at 5%

outer sky
#

So most casters will play precog and most melee will play CC gem

halcyon timber
#

At least we can get everything in house now

worthy crag
#

Maybe. Or they could go for the third one for more auto dmg

outer sky
halcyon timber
#

Gathering storms style gem maybe since we are slowed so much . Still takes a while to build so its eh

#

25k per stack and applies to next atk

worthy crag
#

At 5% it seems like a weaker version of the azerite trait that pmuch did the same thing

#

not the end of the world for sure

halcyon timber
#

Yeah but tie in the def each tree does provide + external defense etc

#

Def not end of the world but def intended for group focus pvp as they talked about focusing on blitz more

outer sky
#

Yeah they want tanks to play it in BGs

#

Which they 100% all will

halcyon timber
#

Tanks can get bent

#

They did add a flag buff for non tags which was cool ig

#

Fc. Buff*

#

Saw some MW tom foolery w that

worthy crag
#

Would be nice if flag stopped preventinf some spells

#

like bubble or block or turtle or vanish

#

just make em still take 50% less dmg etc

#

or stay visible on vanish, it would still be good to clear snares

halcyon timber
#

Id rather just pass it off to a team mate

#

I often drop it, cc someone chasing me and then grab it again

waxen meteor
#

I remember in WLK, orc + anti stun gem

#

peeposcared i can't win some of those elite orc warriors in duel

warped gate
worthy crag
#

Hunter is just awful with a flag

#

cant feign cant turtle

#

disengage stops midair when stunned

potent pivot
potent pivot
#

you're not going to be able to get in until it starts i bet

potent pivot
waxen meteor
potent pivot
#

dooming is one thing, insulting the people that make the game is another thing entirely

potent pivot
surreal barn
#

What if there is substantial evidence that the developers get replaced by AI

severe helm
pliant marsh
#

Are rogues king of WPVP?

severe helm
#

Id say ferals are

#

I think the only time a feral loses a 1v1 to a rogue is when theres dampening

#

at least in most of the duel tournaments thats how it plays out

#

the rogue has to essentially afk and pillar hump til the dampening is high enough then they can win

#

assuming both players of relatively equal skill

#

but sub is very close, assa and outlaw arent necessarily too strong in wpvp id say

waxen meteor
# pliant marsh Are rogues king of WPVP?

In a way yes, cause in most cases even if you cannot win (due to whatever reasons, including opponent uses 12312803810 different drugs), in most cases, you can escape safely

potent pivot
#

every rogue spec can just get a restealth and wait for their CDs to come back

potent pivot
# severe helm this was like a week ago

yeah i saw him playing it a bit then, that was before the last nerf. sub was actually getting a decent amount of 1-1.5m evis then. now it's getting like 800k evis.

#

it's made a substantial difference

severe helm
#

surprised sub got such a big nerf cuz they werent overperforming on raid logs were they?

potent pivot
#

no it was a pvp modifier nerf to Darkest Night

severe helm
#

aaah

potent pivot
#

(the deathstalker capstone)

severe helm
#

pvp specific nerf wow

#

this early

#

thats actually super surprising

potent pivot
#

yeah and they kinda overdid it too

severe helm
#

they normally clear all pvp specific modifiers start of xpac

potent pivot
#

DN was +60% on evis, now it's +19%

severe helm
#

meanwhile affi is almost one shotting people with instant cast shadow bolts haha

potent pivot
#

nahj went from 5-1'ing most shuffles

#

to 2-4 or even 1-5'ing

severe helm
#

subs a hard spec to balance

#

but they def overshot the mark thats for sure

potent pivot
#

that really just boils down to the whole spec is about stacking dmg modifiers in my opinion, but i kinda don't even want to start that conversation over again lol

severe helm
#

hahaha yeah we dont need to

potent pivot
#

like i said before i think the class needs an actual redesign, we're still so similar to what we were in classic era

severe helm
#

lets call it a delicate spec

pliant marsh
potent pivot
#

rogue is usually good in all pvp content

waxen meteor
severe helm
waxen meteor
#

sub is always a good 1on1 spec, but it's also most hated spec, so depends on the version, sometimes our dmg is too bad

#

sin/outlaw, normally one of them is at least okay in pvp

#

my personal opinion is outlaw is not really too much rogue

#

if you want to try out rogue as brand new experience, prbly take sub or sin

potent pivot
#

i think outlaw is very much a rogue

#

it's just more of a brawler spec

waxen meteor
#

yeah my general feeling for rogue is more or less an assassin

#

so going into low pace brawler seems a bit more warrior to me

potent pivot
#

low pace?

waxen meteor
#

peeposcared isn't outlaw normally slowlier building dmg

potent pivot
#

outlaw is the fastest playing spec

waxen meteor
#

with better sustain dmg, and last longer

potent pivot
#

yes

waxen meteor
#

i don't mean how fast you mash your keyboard

potent pivot
#

it doesn't usually have burst damage

waxen meteor
#

yeah that's the low pace for me

marble crag
#

I keep trying sub in pvp but I just cant do it for the life of me. Its imposible to play with so many stuns, and then breaking out of your stuns, or immunity to stuns, high mobility, etc, by the time your shadow dance is over you have managed to land one cheapshot and one evisderate. Keep going back to assa because at least you can actually do damage thanks to the DoTs

potent pivot
#

i've never heard it described that way i guess kekdog

waxen meteor
potent pivot
waxen meteor
#

lots of planning in adv

potent pivot
#

you have to learn what every class in the game does

#

before you really get good at pvp

waxen meteor
#

prayge and it's so annoying sub as a spec is getting punished because of the high skill ceiling of limited few people

potent pivot
#

but that goes for any spec you play

marble crag
potent pivot
#

you need to know how to CC properly and what stops you from CCing

waxen meteor
#

PepeFull i learn other classes by alt now

#

i think i am only 2 classes not 1800 yet

marble crag
potent pivot
#

that's just because right now armor values are borked

#

so assa is really the only spec doing damage

marble crag
potent pivot
#

!nodamage

lethal roostBOT
#

Armor values are either bugged or scaled for level 80, so physical damage is much weaker than it was before 11.0.0, this is causing Outlaw and somewhat Subtlety to feel unplayable currently.

marble crag
#

why is it borked?

potent pivot
#

^

marble crag
#

oh

waxen meteor
marble crag
#

That makes sense...

waxen meteor
#

sub somewhere between

marble crag
#

God i thought i was going crazy that makes a lot of sense

waxen meteor
#

also sin can do huge aoe without fighting there all day long like warriors

potent pivot
#

ever since 11.0.0 dropped

marble crag
waxen meteor
#

the thing is, mechanism is always important, but without dmg, it could always be nothing

#

your cc will eventually dr

#

dmg is always there

#

for sure each spec's performance is a balance of those

#

but without dmg normally it's harder

marble crag
#

bad timing...

potent pivot
#

yeah you wouldn't have noticed it on a mage at all

marble crag
#

Nah i was doing insane damage as mage

waxen meteor
#

there are a few specs heavily relying on physical dmg is doing very bad at pre-patch

#

but pre-patch is so short

#

dont bother

#

it ends next thursday

#

and given we might have another 129312389812 hours patch, it basically ends on tuesday

marble crag
#

mages are so good right now with so many stuns and mobility and the damage they make. So it felt really underwhelming picking back my rogue

waxen meteor
#

so you have 4 days left

#

also it seems extremely fast to level alt now

marble crag
#

okay good to know thanks i might leave my sub for now and keep maining my assa

waxen meteor
#

i tried to do the mission of 50 items from prepatch, hop on ult at lv60, did the mission, now the alt is literally 68.5 level now

waxen meteor
marble crag
#

Why does it end in 4 days?

#

doesnt the expansion release on 22nd?

#

well 26 for me

waxen meteor
marble crag
#

no early access

potent pivot
waxen meteor
#

then tuesday we might have a 283048320 hours patch, it's done

#

wed yeah you might count another day

halcyon timber
#

Did the stress test, it was very very very smooth

waxen meteor
#

then early access

potent pivot
#

mop remix is insanely fast lvling right now

#

for fresh alts

waxen meteor
#

yeah i was just doing the new mission for the looks

#

i wasn't even expecting to level up pfff

marble crag
#

how do you fast level in mop remix? doing Dungeons?

waxen meteor
#

then i am 68.5 now

marble crag
#

i tried it but between queue times and all i just found it faster doing the prepatch event

halcyon timber
#

Yep I logged when the devs said the countdown was beginning

potent pivot
halcyon timber
#

said thank you for working hard on our world and now i've got to go study

potent pivot
#

you have to get an addon so that you don't loot bonus XP from the bosses

waxen meteor
#

remix raid is pfff

potent pivot
#

so you get it in your mail

#

if you're going to try it, look it up before

halcyon timber
#

11 will be back in a few

waxen meteor
#

there are people with 12M HP doing raid

#

one shotting bosses

potent pivot
#

and it's fresh characters from 10-70

#

i leveled a 2nd DH in 2 hours

#

boosters can get you 10-70 in 1 hour

#

it's a lot cheaper than retail level boosting too

visual flume
#

hello fellas, is outlaw gonna be shit once again or is there hope?

potent pivot
visual flume
potent pivot
#

but we're still a few weeks from season start, so things can change

spring bough
#

is Supatease a streamer? feel like ive heard the name before

#

oh yeah he is lol. my solo bg team just gave his team the work lol

#

this guy did so much overall damage on his boomy its crazy

potent pivot
#

and iirc a former competitor?

#

i'm not super familiar with older AWCs

spring bough
#

he showed up to WW

#

with a shield that was 100% of his almost 2 million health

#

i popped all my CDs as a frost DK didnt even budge his health lol

#

went straight to the lowest hp dude after that lmao

#

omg im playing against him again.... me and 3 other DKs lol

#

he is streaming i think too bout to watch both these games LOL

#

1-1. my whole team imploded and started fighting with each other lmao

severe helm
#

outlaw is arguably the fastest of the 3 specs

#

and requires the most playing

#

sub requires a lot more patience

#

but if you meant speed as in how fast the enemy's hp goes down

#

thats def sub hahaha

waxen meteor
#

Yeah could be me describing it lol

#

Fast pace for me is, you stealth you show up you burst and kill and gone

spring bough
#

holy cow at sin rogues right now in solo

#

213k dps

#

overall

#

lmaooooo

severe helm
#

does by far the most burst with the least buttons

#

assa was close though this last season cuz kingsbane was insane

waxen meteor
#

Slow pace for me is more like to build advantage slowly and win eventually by dmg/healing/mana

#

Where sub is more like to find the moment and seal the deal right away

waxen meteor
#

Yeah our dmg is quite good this week

spring bough
#

yeah its wild lol

#

me and this sin rogue just killed this evo healer in like 10 seconds

potent pivot
#

dance/tea/symbols/blades/sepsis/strike/evis/sectech

#

it definitely has to press the most buttons

severe helm
#

yeah I mean yeah but the burst it gets from that is very high

potent pivot
#

it's not high APM

severe helm
#

I mean its high apm for the window

potent pivot
#

for the window yeah i mean in general

#

but it def requires the most buttons to burst

severe helm
#

I mean outlaw just doesnt have burst so its excluded haha

#

assa is close though it has almost the same setup

#

a lot more of assas setup is on gcd though so it feels slower

steel scarab
#

Numbers are a bit bloated lol. We need to cut some zeros off this damage and HP so a normal human brain can comprehend it

potent pivot
#

this is nothing lol

severe helm
#

yeah whats the highest hp numbers weve had in wow history

potent pivot
#

numbers back at level 110

#

bfa would've been the highest

#

it's really irrelevant as long as damage is tuned properly

#

we might actually have the highest hp ever right now

#

can't find any info and i didn't play from cata->bfa

#

looks like Legion had more

jolly sierra
#

i played for antorus

#

numbers were crazy

spring bough
#

how does elemental blast hit for 750k

#

did ele get nerfed yet lmao

potent pivot
steel scarab
#

Do people like numbers this high?

#

I find it distracting

#

Like I see 80k and 1% of my brain goes ooh, big hit.

Then the other 99% kicks in and I realize that's not even 10% of someone's hp

potent pivot
#

pretty sure you can use addons to customize your damage numbers if you dislike em

#

make anything under X number a smaller font

#

etc

severe helm
#

I just started playing with them off haha

#

except for miss/dodge/etc

steel scarab
#

Also, just doing some quick non mathematical theory crafting:

Isn't nerfing Kidney a massive nerf to all rogue specs besides Subtlety, which still has two Vanishes AND a Dance, during each of which multiple Cheap Shots can be applied, PLUS Sub is the only spec with Duel?

I mean we all pretty much agree that everyone is completely unkillable if they have heals on them

So having access to what amounts to 3x more ways to disable healers means subtlety had better do absolutely dogshit damage and be capable of barely any burst or it's going to very obviously be the best pvp spec

halcyon timber
#

Its all damage relative to health pools

severe helm
#

kidney shot is 30 seconds now right?

potent pivot
#

ye

steel scarab
#

All rogue pvp specs have two Vanishes, but only Sub has two Vanishes plus dance, with dance cdr, plus Duel

halcyon timber
#

Yesm

severe helm
#

the thing is, dr starts when the stun ends

#

and dr is how long again? 24?

halcyon timber
#

Si

#

18

severe helm
#

ah 18 yeah

#

24 cuz 18 + 6 is what I remember from kidney normally

#

so before our kidney actually came up before dr was off generally

halcyon timber
#

Technically kidney is 48s cd w dr

severe helm
#

?

halcyon timber
#

30s cd but waiting 18 for dr

severe helm
#

no kidneys cd starts counting down when you press it

potent pivot
#

huh

steel scarab
#

That seems wrong

severe helm
#

so kidney duration + dr is 24 seconds

#

so its actually only a 6 sec cd

potent pivot
#

it is wrong

severe helm
#

before it was arguably a negative cd haha

#

cuz it came up before dr was off

#

uless they trinketed

potent pivot
#

DR and CD happen simultaneously

severe helm
#

and if you ever dr stun AFTER a kidney, you can think of the cd as even less impacted

halcyon timber
#

Yeh i mean it in like a time elapsed till we can full kidney again

severe helm
#

so a 10 sec additional cd isnt actually that much longer

potent pivot
halcyon timber
#

Not a big deal yeh

halcyon timber
severe helm
#

but even for sub you still used kidney on dr for setups

halcyon timber
#

Yeah have to cs yeh

severe helm
#

so it moves the general setup cadence from 24ish seconds to 30seconds

pliant marsh
#

What hero talents is everyone going with for sin rogue?

steel scarab
#

I think you guys who are OK with the extra ten seconds on KS cd are tunnel visioning, literally and figuratively

I cannot tell you how often I Kshot someone in a big BG group fight or even an arena, and then want to swap to a secondary target that has no stun DR and Kshot them

severe helm
#

I think it might hurt sub the msot though cuz they rely the most on their cross cc setup for kills

pliant marsh
#

Or your favorite?

halcyon timber
#

What did dark pact turn to with hero talents

steel scarab
#

There is now an additional ten seconds I have to wait to do that

#

It is fucking aids

severe helm
#

and before, you could do three goes before someones minute cds came up

#

now someone who has a minute cd defensive will have it for every other go

#

which might be really impactful

potent pivot
# halcyon timber K

DR is 18 seconds, duration is 6 seconds. CD is 30 seconds. you can kidney again immediately when it comes off CD, so only 30 seconds elapsed?

severe helm
steel scarab
#

All I can say is, they better have massively pumped Sin and Combat damage, and revoked the awful pvp nerf of Wound Poison

potent pivot
#

i know

steel scarab
#

Or I do not feel optimistic

halcyon timber
#

Yeh

potent pivot
#

i'm not getting where the 48s is coming from

halcyon timber
#

Don’t sweat it . Had 5 exams and im stir fried rice atm

#

Have 1 more tomorrow and 3 next wk

potent pivot
#

word

halcyon timber
#

Then 2 more in the next week

potent pivot
#

i thought maybe you were considering some DR cheap shots from rotation or something

#

for sub specifically or something

steel scarab
#

I might swap to sub, I just do not like having a macro that presses 5 of my cooldowns

halcyon timber
#

W all the drs from warr might as well xD

steel scarab
#

That's not engaging gameplay

severe helm
halcyon timber
#

Dunno we have seen fatebound assassin smack the pee out of people too

potent pivot
#

yeah i don't play with any of them macro'd

steel scarab
#

But they're all off the GCD, so it's pretty awful not to

potent pivot
#

not really

severe helm
#

eh

#

you dont aaaalways want to use them all at once

potent pivot
#

yep

steel scarab
#

You don't, but

halcyon timber
#

Dark pact says bonjour!

steel scarab
#

Usually you do, and also, the buttons don't feel good to press individually

severe helm
#

Yeah off gcd modifiers are kinda tedious

steel scarab
#

If you don't press them all there isn't a significant impact, which, again, is not good design

severe helm
#

but some people really like it

steel scarab
#

Every button we push should feel impactful

severe helm
#

theyre all pretty impactful haha

#

theyre multiplicative af

steel scarab
#

Buttons that don't feel impactful should be condensed or deleted

halcyon timber
#

They do have impact and thats good

steel scarab
#

Right, they're multiplicative. Aka, not good alone

#

Aka, just make them all one big button

severe helm
#

but you use them seperately too

#

they have different cds

#

I think tea is the only one that needs removing personally

halcyon timber
#

They aren’t going back to the past though so we cannot argue for it

severe helm
#

that is a dogshit ability imo

steel scarab
#

You're reminding me why sub isn't fun

#

A bunch of multiplicative abilities with different cooldowns

potent pivot
halcyon timber
#

Where is popo when i need him?

#

Need to find out if cadberry eggs are good or not

#

Cadbury? However they spell it

severe helm
#

the chocolate?

halcyon timber
#

Yeh

#

Random yes but important

severe helm
#

theyre pretty tasty

steel scarab
#

Why do we not have a spec with a mastery ability that buffs our builder damage?

severe helm
#

I mean the cost of buying one for the sake of finding out isnt too bad right?

severe helm
#

literally

steel scarab
#

We have finisher damage, poison/bleed damage, and

....random extra dmg

#

No, it is not. Assa mastery does not buff Ambush or mutilate.

halcyon timber
#

Bc they aren’t going back to the past

severe helm
#

they dont use ambush but I guess yeah mutilate is excluded

#

buffs every other builder though

#

lol

halcyon timber
#

Where a fat ambush shook someones ancestors

#

Or fat fuckin beloved backstabs

#

Just not doing it

steel scarab
#

Those were good, impactful abilities

#

They felt good to use

severe helm
#

idk builders feel like they arent supposed to be your main damage dealer

#

things that generate resource tend to do less damage

halcyon timber
#

Yeh been arguing for years but have to talent now to make em worth it

#

Which is fine

steel scarab
#

You realize why they don't want builders to be strong, right?

#

Because people cry

halcyon timber
#

Yeh

#

For sure

steel scarab
#

But like, people have millions of hp

severe helm
#

I mean yeah its kind of bad design to have builders stronger than finishers

steel scarab
#

How is that bad design?

severe helm
#

why would you use a finisher lol

#

if it does less damage

steel scarab
#

Weaker finishers, stronger builders. Finishers should still do more, so they're worth using

potent pivot
#

they shouldn't do less

steel scarab
#

But bro

potent pivot
#

but builders should do meaningful damage

halcyon timber
#

That’s the point of talent diversity as well

severe helm
#

so you want finishers to still do more lol

steel scarab
#

Mutilate currently hits for 15k

severe helm
#

yeah okay then tha tmakes sense

halcyon timber
#

Both can do well but they arent allowing bith

severe helm
#

thats kind of how outlaw is

#

problem with that though is now you have no burst

#

I mean I like outlaw so its not a problem for me

steel scarab
#

Easy solution

#

Weaken assa poison and bleed dmg significantly
Make wound poison stack to like, 20

#

Cleanse that shit or die, healers

severe helm
#

what does that solve?

potent pivot
steel scarab
#

It gives an interesting identity to assassination

halcyon timber
#

Da hale is the hedgehog doing

steel scarab
#

Which currently has none

severe helm
#

bleeds are their identity

halcyon timber
#

XD

potent pivot
#

the only thing assa needs is better ambush/envenom talents

severe helm
#

wound poison isnt an identity haha

potent pivot
#

to make them worth pressing

steel scarab
#

Right, but subtlety rupture hits harder than assassination rupture

#

So is that an actual identity?

halcyon timber
#

Fat fuckin ambushy ftw

severe helm
#

assa honestly operates totally fine for the most part but yeah the fact that you fok spam for a generator is cringe

#

ambush needs to be relevant again

steel scarab
#

Mega cringe

#

I agree

halcyon timber
#

For science

severe helm
#

spread pressure/consistent bleed damage is a totally fine identity imo

halcyon timber
#

What does vicious venoms do 2/2?

#

On pvp dummy

potent pivot
#

70%

steel scarab
#

And why do we fok? One, it literally hits for the same amount of dmg as mutilate.

Two, it has a 12 yard range

Three, it hits multiple targets

Four, the one talent makes it so it has +10% crit and applies all poisons on crit

halcyon timber
#

I mean what does it hit for

potent pivot
#

no pvp modifier

steel scarab
#

Uh, 12000 * 1.7

potent pivot
#

on beta like 150-200k?

severe helm
halcyon timber
#

Hmm

severe helm
#

and cuz it applies wound in aoe

#

fok def hits less hard than mut

halcyon timber
#

So 300somethin?

severe helm
#

you dont press it in ST

steel scarab
#

It doesn't lol

severe helm
#

sure does

steel scarab
#

Look at the tooltip on retail

potent pivot
halcyon timber
steel scarab
#

FOK hits for 12k, Mutilate hits for 15

halcyon timber
#

Poop

potent pivot
severe helm
steel scarab
#

And FOK is aoe with a higher critrate

halcyon timber