pvp

[halcyon timber]

Yeh i just dont trust it at all

[potent pivot]

i'd much rather see more disc priests around

[outer sky]

I think they need to suck it up and do what they clearly want to do and make Tranq a divine shield

just get it over with already

[halcyon timber]

Fk tranq too

They will buff druid before they nerf mages

Definitely hate druid seasons though agreed

Afk healing pooping in a box

[potent pivot]

did they nerf rdru dps at all

because wrath refunding 2500 mana and doing so much damage is just toxic

literally makes you win damp depending on who pressed wrath more

[outer sky]

would be fine if they didn't design it so that damp was the most common win con

[potent pivot]

i feel like that's just not gonna happen though

[halcyon timber]

They didn’t nerf broccoli wraths nope

[potent pivot]

if it stays damp meta and outlaw stays in it's current iteration

outlaw for sure going to be the best no?

[halcyon timber]

Definitely

[potent pivot]

rotates defensives way more than any other spec in the game

[outer sky]

how? Cloak is a static 2m and evasion is only reduced by 0.3s per CP spent which really doesn't get it back that fast. Plus you suggest not even playing that talent most of the time.

[halcyon timber]

W/o true bearing?

[potent pivot]

you rotate vanish too

[outer sky]

yeah w/o TB

[halcyon timber]

Right on

[outer sky]

but vanish is a pretty shit defensive. 1.5s of stealth protection and then theyre back on you. Plus we generally want it for offensive purposes.

Remember cloak was a 1m CD for most of WoW history

I think it's time to bring that back

you could argue DK's current AMS is a cloak on a shorter CD that can be used on allies

[halcyon timber]

Cdew would crap his pants demanding nerfs

[potent pivot]

i'm pretty sure at the top level people won't be blowing vanish solely for offensive purposes

[potent pivot]

yeah i mean i like this idea but everyone would CRY so hard

[outer sky]

still, you bought yourself 1.5s of safety. It's not meaningless but i dont see it as nearly a big enough defensive to judge the spec on

[halcyon timber]

Dh taco bell fire cleanse is a cloak too

[potent pivot]

dh also has reverse magic

[outer sky]

no its not

[potent pivot]

reverse magic is basically cloak

[outer sky]

but yeah reverse is a thing

Monks hae diffuse

[halcyon timber]

Cleans some stuff off yeah?

[outer sky]

which is a shitty version of cloak

I just dont see the argument for cloak being a 2m CD in pvp.

[halcyon timber]

Didn’t it used to be all effects are one pt? Was recently changed to 1 thing in tww notes yeah?

Bc f rogues thwts wht

Why

[potent pivot]

reverse is also a 1m CD

btw

[halcyon timber]

Doesn’t need to make sense

[outer sky]

maybe when we had unnerfed veil of midnight

I could see that being a 2m CD

but not now

its an undertuned defensive compared to what other classes have

at least make it 1.5m

[potent pivot]

don't forget

[halcyon timber]

Best they can do is nerfs man

[potent pivot]

we're also getting Bait and Switch

[halcyon timber]

20% wall

[potent pivot]

ya

it's nothing great

but it's decent

[halcyon timber]

Extended cloak as choice too

[outer sky]

the fact that the player base opts for cheat death over elusiveness tells me BnS isn't anything super meaningful

[halcyon timber]

So you can still get mortal coiled through it

[outer sky]

that will only be taken in 2v2 against fire mages and boomies

[potent pivot]

that's not a good comparison man

[halcyon timber]

For sure

[potent pivot]

people are taking Cheat because it's OP

[outer sky]

what

cheat has been around forever

[potent pivot]

yep

[outer sky]

nobody played it in pvp until DF

and it hasnt changed

[potent pivot]

yes they did

[outer sky]

and it doesnt even save you like half the time

i swear I die through more often than not

[halcyon timber]

Starsurge lul

[potent pivot]

cheat has been taken a lot over the years

in SL pretty much anytime you fought a sub rogue you wanted to take cheat

as an example

[outer sky]

that's niche. doesn't mean it was OP. was just a better choice into that kind of damage profile where you can't feint the damage beause youll always be stunned during it and the sub rogue's hits are large, individual chunks

I think it would be "OP" if it worked reliably

But that's far from the current situation

especially with 2 feint charges

I still question if I should take cheat

[potent pivot]

really

[outer sky]

and with BnS, I assume the elusiveness and BnS wall stack with evasion

[potent pivot]

to me it's a pretty obvious choice idk

[outer sky]

so thats a 40% wall during evasion

but a lot of the time, at least half, my cheat procs and I insta die

and I think

maybe if I had a 20% feint wall I wouldnt have died

[potent pivot]

i think the opposite

if i die through cheat

i don't think elu would've been enough

[outer sky]

you're dying through it because it's not working properly

I used to have some logs to prove that

[potent pivot]

i do like the idea of stacking elu with BnS evasion/cloak

40% is nothing to sneeze at

[outer sky]

no that's a pain sup

its good

[halcyon timber]

Like old cloak glyph

From wrath days many moons ago

[outer sky]

or just unnerf veil of midnight and call it a day

i'd be fine with that too

[potent pivot]

it's mostly just certain abilities that make you die through

but you're still taking enough dmg that i don't think a 20% DR would save it

like iirc hunter's rapid fire is one of those abilities that kills through a lot of the time

so when rapid fire does a lot of dmg it's a bad time

[halcyon timber]

RF is dumb af

[outer sky]

no man, I dont have the log anymore but you jus have to believe me. I was on beta and took 2 arcane barrages, one of them proc'd my cheat and the 2nd one did the same damage as the first while my cheat wall was supposed to be up

[potent pivot]

like if you proc cheat from the beginning of rapid fire, the rest of the rapid fire damage that's still queued to come, just kills you through

[halcyon timber]

I believe it as thst has resulted in many broken things on my desk

[potent pivot]

yeah i mean i believe you

[stoic spruce]

Desk included

[potent pivot]

cheat has always been like tht

[outer sky]

so how great is this talent if all of these other abilities just kill through it?

[potent pivot]

idk why they can't make it work properly

[outer sky]

it works fucking perfectly in pve. Never once had it fail

[halcyon timber]

Id rather feint high and run

[potent pivot]

cheat works fine for me more often than not

i just notice the times i die through way more than i notice the proper working procs

because i obviously died

it leaves a more lasting impact than when it just works

[halcyon timber]

Still wish step broke roots if they are going to keep all the diablo 4 shit in

[potent pivot]

i've had it fail in pve

many times

and it always depended on the ability that proc'd it

[halcyon timber]

Died in nathria soaking mechanics on the general fight

[steel scarab]

Have you guys tried rated BGs lately

We feel unplayable

[halcyon timber]

The rock soak or whatever

[potent pivot]

what

we're good af in bg

are you just talking about stealth bugs? or?

[halcyon timber]

Turn off details is step 1

[steel scarab]

It feels like every class has 10 ways to just stop us from moving

[halcyon timber]

Agreed man

[steel scarab]

That + no acrobatic strikes + healers are unkillable

[potent pivot]

like having 1-2 rogues on your team is almost a guaranteed win

[steel scarab]

It is just awful

[potent pivot]

unless you're vs multilpe DKs/eles etc

[steel scarab]

A disc priest is flag carrying because the whole team can't kill him

Like

Healers have gone too fucking far

[halcyon timber]

XD yeah

[potent pivot]

lmao

[steel scarab]

Remember when Wound Poison used to actually reduce healing?

A 5 stack of it?

[indigo hill]

I wouldn't bother trying to kill a healer. Focus more on ccing them.

[potent pivot]

i wouldn't put much stock into how things are in pre patch man

for real

[steel scarab]

They heal SO MUCH now that it doesn't even do anything

[potent pivot]

it will be irrelevant in 2 weeks

[halcyon timber]

It just inserts tic tacs in their pp now

[potent pivot]

pre patch tuning is always all over the place

because we're basically tuned for level 80

[indigo hill]

What tuning? 😂

[potent pivot]

but we're not level 80

[potent pivot]

TWW tuning

[indigo hill]

We're doing OK with assa atm. Outlaw does nothing.

[steel scarab]

I hope you're right dude because 30 second kidney, no acrobatic strikes, every class has a bunch of roots and slows and stuns that are now comparable with what we have

[potent pivot]

that's why i haven't queued a single rated match

[halcyon timber]

Armor is doubled atm mind you

[potent pivot]

pre patch is a meme

[halcyon timber]

Like trickz said many a time

[outer sky]

can you explain this to me? I don't quite get it. How can we be "tuned for level 80" while at level 70? I thought armor value increases with ilvl. So if armor is out of control now, the % DR should stay the same at level 80 because everyone gains a ton more armor by replacing their current gear with level 80 gear. right?

[halcyon timber]

We are stuck in a mathematical slinky

When they increased stats w the changes to tww

[potent pivot]

it's normalized

at level 80 you will have way less %

even though you have more armor on your gear than you did at 70

[halcyon timber]

Yeh its back to 20something for us at 80

[steel scarab]

That is so incredibly stupid and non intuitive

Why is it like that

[potent pivot]

it's fucking

pre patch lol

[steel scarab]

No

That's not what I asked

[potent pivot]

there's nothing on the line

[steel scarab]

Why does armor go up and the value of it goes down

What is the rationale mathematically for a system like that

[potent pivot]

because you're leveling up

no one is going to care about your armor value at 70

[outer sky]

Yo guys, hold up

[steel scarab]

But why would they fuck with how the armor value has been all of this expansion

[outer sky]

this is huge

[steel scarab]

at level 70

What is the rationale for fucking with that

[outer sky]

apparently in this area I can get a fucking boat to deliver doordash to me

what should I order

I gotta try this

[halcyon timber]

Thats sick af

[potent pivot]

because it's pre patch. it's called pre patch for a reason. we are technically already in the war within, many changes had to be made for 11.0.0

this literally happens evey expansion

in the same manner

[steel scarab]

That still doesn't answer my question. Why has armor at level 70 changed, when I am fighting level 70 mobs and players? Why could the values not stay exactly as they are at current, and only change at 71

[potent pivot]

they just also happened to buff armor values on gear this time

at the same time

[potent pivot]

i'm not a dev man, i don't know the technical reasoning

but big patches have to be made

they can't just leave EVERYTHING for launch day

[steel scarab]

I just do not understand why they would fuck all the melee classes with such a dumb change and leave it in the game for months

[potent pivot]

months

?

pre patch is like 1 month total

[steel scarab]

Has it been months? When did this change happen

Okay, 1 month

[potent pivot]

it happened like

a little over a week ago dude

[steel scarab]

I'll be honest, I didn't notice it when I hit 1800 in RBGs, but now

It is fucking unplayable cancer

[potent pivot]

whenever they launched prepatch

11.0.0 patch

[potent pivot]

order sea food

[steel scarab]

This change basically says, "you can queue for BGs, but instead of having a 50-70% chance to win based on your personal skill, you now have a 20-50% chance to win"

[potent pivot]

i mean i don't think that's true at all

[outer sky]

lol the Dasher just pulls up to my boat, grabs one of the fishing rods, reels in a fish, hands it to me and says "here's your sushi, sir!"

[potent pivot]

i've seen a lot of rogues still going quite well

[steel scarab]

Let me say this again. A Discipline priest just ran the flag 3x

[potent pivot]

lmao

[steel scarab]

There are serious game issues when a Discipline priest can keep himself alive with an entire team beating on him

While carrying a flag

[potent pivot]

yes and he's cloth so least affected by the armor thing in the first place

[steel scarab]

I'm not even speaking about armor specifically

[potent pivot]

your team should've been able to kill him

[steel scarab]

I am saying the balance is completely fucked

[outer sky]

someone on the forums last week was bitching about his team trying to 9v1 a warlock while the enemy flag carrier just ran by LOL

[potent pivot]

or the other team was just better

[potent pivot]

it's not meant to be balanced right now

[steel scarab]

Let me say this a different way. I don't think the game is in a healthy state when it takes an entire team to kill a healer, and that's "the norm"

[potent pivot]

with 11.0.2 the patch that dropped this Tuesday, they pushed all the tuning they've been doing on the beta

tuning done for hero talent classes

but you don't have any hero talents

[outer sky]

to be fair, as long as they're still charging the subscription fee the game should be in at least a somewhat playable state. If they're gunna do shit like this they should make pre-patch month free

[potent pivot]

it is literally just pre patch

it's not supposed to be balanced

[potent pivot]

yeah i mean i see the point in that

but i think the game is still playable

[steel scarab]

I agree with Star. If we're paying, and we want to pvp, it shouldn't be normalized that "Oh, you guys just can't play for a month, deal with it"

Rated BG is absolutely not playable in its current state dude

I mean, roll that back

you can play it

you're just going to have a miserable time

There are way too many roots, slows, and stuns for us to have a 30s kidney and no acrobatic strikes

[potent pivot]

i just think your opinion is being warped by 1 experience in 1 game man

[steel scarab]

I just played 15 games

I won 4

[potent pivot]

did your team try to do anything about the disc priest

[steel scarab]

Previously, it was pretty normal for me to win 60% of the games

[potent pivot]

collectively

[steel scarab]

Are you saying I somehow became THAT much worse at the game

Or

Is it more likely that these changes completely warped things

Or just that I miraculously got put with horrible teammates THAT many games in a row

[halcyon timber]

Hoh hoh hoh bwonsomdi know the answer to that

[steel scarab]

Statistically, what seems more likely?

[halcyon timber]

Just dks gripping everything being plate apes w no finesse

[steel scarab]

Grips

Are fucking cancer

I get gripped

I shadowstep

I get gripped again and now my target is out of range

Great gameplay

[halcyon timber]

Then chains of ice rooted!

Yeh boy

[potent pivot]

?

[steel scarab]

What did you want the team to do? They were actively attacking him

[lucid citrus]

Sorry guys, remind me again, they took out that 1 sec immunity from Viel of midnight right?

[steel scarab]

He would not die

And I, as our team's highest dps, couldn't stay on him because

DK grip, DK grip, DK grip, DK grip

[halcyon timber]

Still have veil imm but you need butthole tight reaction to imm it

[stoic spruce]

Based dk

[steel scarab]

Shaman root, mage root

[stoic spruce]

Get fucked rogue

[steel scarab]

cloak is on a 2 min cooldown

Like

[halcyon timber]

Look the most important thing boys

[steel scarab]

Sprint does nothing when you're slowed by 70%

[potent pivot]

cloak has 1sec immunity in general

with or without veil

[halcyon timber]

Is LEGALIZING BBQ HAMMERS

[lucid citrus]

I thought thye took it out? or was that the evasion that was taken out?

[lime oar]

I hear lots of crying

[potent pivot]

nope

[halcyon timber]

Just the evasion part of veil was taken out

[potent pivot]

the vanish was changed from 3 to 1.5 seconds of full stealth or w/e

[steel scarab]

I don't have anything else to do. I hit Keystone hero, raiding is boring, and PvP is cancerous

Do I unsub until TWW? is that what blizz wants us to do?

[halcyon timber]

Just 7 days till patchmas

[steel scarab]

Have we tested our class in TWW beta? Like in arena, BG, etc?

[potent pivot]

in arena yeah

[lime oar]

https://tenor.com/view/touch-grass-grass-edit-discord-mod-take-a-shower-grass-gif-4150619048381921111

[steel scarab]

I sincerely don't want to buy the game if this is the sort of gameplay experience PvP is going to be like

[potent pivot]

i've literally said

a few times already

that it's not

armor DR is at like 15-25% on beta because you're level 80

live is at like 45-85% or some shit

cloth being around 45% - plate being around 85%

leather/mail in the middle

[steel scarab]

So stop queueing for BG

Understood

[halcyon timber]

Yeh

[potent pivot]

that's your choice

[halcyon timber]

Beat on people in the woods instead

[potent pivot]

i've seen a lot of rogues queueing and doing fine

[steel scarab]

I mean like why would I or any melee class queue into that sort of gamestate

[halcyon timber]

Getting my netgun ready for launch day

[halcyon timber]

Well shit my pants and call me an r word

[potent pivot]

tranq healing was slighty buffed

the rest are nerfs

[halcyon timber]

Maka sensa

[potent pivot]

i guess they didn't touch their damage at all yet

[halcyon timber]

X to doubt

[potent pivot]

wait

[lucid citrus]

thank you for response 🙂

[potent pivot]

they also did all that

[halcyon timber]

Convoke tom foolery is back eh

[potent pivot]

np, as Eridian said they only removed the Evasion portion from Veil

they only nerfed cat weaving damage from the looks of it

oh and sunfire

but that wasn't doing anything crazy anyway i don't think

[halcyon timber]

Bite unnerfed in pvp + wildstalker will be something to watch for

[potent pivot]

did you see the feral clip i posted earlier

[halcyon timber]

4m one?

[potent pivot]

yeah

[halcyon timber]

Standard procedure man

[potent pivot]

but darknest gets nerfed by like 66%

[halcyon timber]

Moonkin will prob get buffed

[potent pivot]

[halcyon timber]

XD

[potent pivot]

i think so

they don't look too good on beta from what i've seen

but i've only seen it a handful of times

[halcyon timber]

4m starsurge inc

Fury warrior is allegedly cracked

[potent pivot]

it's pretty good yeah

arms, not so much

[outer sky]

you have to keep in mind the fact that just because you see a 4m starsurge doesn't mean starsurge is broken. That also doesn't mean it isn't. But if they have to make the stars align (pun intended), and play entirely around trying to make that big starsurge happen, to the point where they're kinda fucked for the next few minutes at least if they don't kill with it, then it's not overtuned. At least not IMO. I think it's fine if someone wants to super all in something and go really high risk high reward. As a long time rogue player I've done that too. But ever tried to play a rogue one shot build and not get the kill? It feels like you may as well just /afk. That's what makes shit like that both balanced and also not terribly viable at high rating, which is what we care about. Again it may be broken and the boomie may be investing very little into that starsurge, but just seeing a 4m starsurge (not even a one shot) doesn't imply that boomie or starsurge are OP on their own.

[halcyon timber]

Meh was messing. Idc what they are up to.

If it truly is balanced then so be it /shrug

I think they buffed wrath and stuff for them a lot w 11.0 and from forum reading (not the shit posts) its a lot of moderate starsurges i guess?

I don’t speak owl but i do try to read other classes and their concerns etc

[outer sky]

it's like, pre nerfed lingering darkness sub rogue. If they play every evisc modifer and successfully set up a situation where they can DFA with all of those modifiers and nobody stops them, would one 4m evisc be OP? I don't think so, personally. It's not even a one shot. But it would be an all in gimmick that we would never rely on to push rating with.

[halcyon timber]

Not a fan of gimmicks for sure. Definitely prefer to combine my shit

[worthy crag]

Gimmicks can be great to rely on for pushing rating

What makes a gimmick good or bad for pushing has to do with how telegraphed it is

stacking evis amps into stun DFA for 4m eviscerate is way more "op" than taking 8 globals of ramping up flagellation for 15m eviscerate, for example

They kill the fun when it is un-telegraphed, low risk, and high reward. Like that one setup in BFA season 4 where prot pallies stacked full on that void beam shit in hopes of proccing it and oneshotting everyone

[outer sky]

I think it also depends on how much you're investing in the gimmick

If it doesn't work work but your otherwise "business as usual" playstyle is hardly hampered and you can exploit a variety of other win conditions, that's OP

But if it doesn't work and now you can't really do shit until you get every CD back and try and set up your one shot again

That's not OP

[worthy crag]

It would be, if that one thing is capable of actually oneshotting

But that's been historically pretty rare and very quickly hotfixed

Like, kyrian pallies or night fae druids in season 1 of SL

just afk in bear form until its back up

press it

repeat

[outer sky]

That's low investment though

If you need to line shit up

Have every CD and use them a certain way

To get a one shot

And you can't win otherwise

That's fine IMO

[worthy crag]

I guess in those cases it's more lke dont "have to" do shit rather than "cant do shit"

[outer sky]

Yeah

[worthy crag]

Like, sure boomies and ferals still could do other shit while convoke is on CD

but they didnt have to

so, effectively, it's kinda the same deal

[outer sky]

I'm talking like

SL S1 one dance sub rogue

[worthy crag]

ehh idk

That kinda goes back to the counterplay argument

Like does it have counterplay, etc.

[outer sky]

You either 100-0d someone in a duel or you just lost

And you needed every CD to do it

And enemy trinket

And no interference

And you gave up having a second dance

Which was a huge sacrifice

[worthy crag]

For that specific example, I don't think that build yielded a significant enough of a damage increase to make it op

If it hit higher, I think it would have been op

despite that high risk nature of lining everything up

[outer sky]

Oh boy do i have a clip for you my guy

Oh how little you know about the one shot rogue himself

One sec

[worthy crag]

It's also kinda back to talking about counterplay

cuz duel has a shit ton of counterplay esp at higher rating

not that that justifies the existence of that spell, it's still a dumb ability

[outer sky]

https://www.twitch.tv/mmarkers/clip/AmericanBreakablePineappleImGlitch-eMq78BonGrRbbmo5

there's one

im the enemy rogue

and this happened about 20 minutes later lol https://www.twitch.tv/mmarkers/clip/RichFantasticMochaFutureMan-q6xitMxi3QiA2Kg5

[worthy crag]

I see it but like, it's 2s, you know? The existence of the third would make a huge difference in terms of doing something

But yeah

My memory was understating the amount of damage it can do lol

[outer sky]

You needed an immunity to live

I killed disc priests 100-0 though PS when they popped it at 90%

[worthy crag]

I was thinking of another specific example with actual little to 0 counterplay

Like first half of legion, rogue had this pvp ability that gave vanish to the mage if the rogue gave tricks to em and vanished himself

So what they'd do is take thiefs bargain and tricks for pvp talents

essentially do 0 dmg

vanish the mage while hes casting ebonbolt or glacial spike

to oneshot

0 counterplay, indeed op, even if the comp as a whole did 0 damage outside of vanish windows

esp if the mage is playing ice floes

they'd literally be movecasting in stealth

The enemy healer could try to PS but then the mage would just recast on a diff target with a new cheapshot

[outer sky]

Tbf in 3s I did the same thing but depending on the comp made sure to cloak as I dueled so I couldn't get peeled. Some things would go through like warrior fear, spirit link, dome, and that's if the other 2 on your team don't do anything to stop that. Ultimately if you only lose the games where someone can peel the duel through your trinket, cloak, and team CCs, you were still doing really well.

[worthy crag]

Yeah I imagine it'd be a hit or miss depending on if the enemy team happens to have a lot of aoe peel or not

[outer sky]

Yep and if you didn't kill you almost never got another shot

[worthy crag]

I never bothered with that build, was too busy playing invigorating shadowdust for back to back 7 second kidneys

[outer sky]

I did that for a while too but man those one shots were too much fun

I loved fighting holy priests

[worthy crag]

Also blizzard has their own way of defining OP, which is actually justifiable. They usually look at how player experience would be at mid to high tier, not particularly at top 0.X percent

[outer sky]

They'd GS in the stun and you'd proc it and kill through the 40% heal

[worthy crag]

And most average players would look at the duel oneshot as more OP than two kidneys in a row

[outer sky]

Yeah even though the former is actually much less OP.

I used to say

I'll never beat the same team twice

Because all they have to do is line their trinket up with my blades/duel

And I won't ever kill them

[worthy crag]

Yeah that's the thing

[outer sky]

So what you're describing is just another example of blizzard tuning the game around people wanting pvp to basically be pve against players where they can zug as hard as they want, not think about their trinket usage or defensives, and never get punished for it

Whereas actually good players would destroy me playing that build

[worthy crag]

On top of damage output, the room for counterplay has to be calculated to decide if one things OP

[outer sky]

I queued into kubzy and wealthyman several times that season

Not once did I get them to trinket before I applied any pressure

Because they're good enough to know how to use those resources

And I lost every time

[worthy crag]

I think the way you put it is a bit extreme, lol. Being punished is good, but being punished by a 100-0 might not be justifiable.

[vestal cape]

sorry if this was mentioned earlier today; but is honor now transferable again? I see that is says it is but transfer button missing on all currencies; dunno if thats due to a broken addon on my end or something

[worthy crag]

or like, being 100-0ed with no CDs could be a good room for punishment, but being 100-0ed through GS or PS, not much so

Yeah. So if it works 99.9% of times against 1650 players but 0% of the time on 3200 players

blizz would consider that as nerfable

Not just blizz really, that's just how all companies do it and I think that's the right way

[potent pivot]

yes but i think they turned it off atm to fix it

might be a couple more days max is my guess

[vestal cape]

ah ok, well at least its something, thanks man, just hopin they get around to it before honor is wiped entirely

[potent pivot]

i think they should. they just added it with this week's reset. they turned off warband banks for a couple days after launching them as well, but they got them back up pretty quickly.

[outer sky]

The reason it's okay is because if they trinketed before I used my burst, it means they wasted their trinket and pressed it offensively. Because until I used my CDs I couldn't apply any pressure and those CDs are the same or longer than trinket. So if you pressed trinket because you just didn't feel like sitting CC, which is the only reason why anyone would press it against me before I've committed my CDs, then I see no reason why getting 100-0d through GS is an overturned punishment. Next time just rip your vape while you sit that 7s kidney your hp isn't moving at all during.

[worthy crag]

I think that perspective held more truth when dance was 1 charge, didn't have CDR, and vanish was also 2 minutes with 1 charge (barring preparation which is only usable once per match at 5 min CD)

and shadowstep was 1 charge

[outer sky]

Perspective is relative to the season I did it during only

[worthy crag]

Like

[outer sky]

Dance had 2 charges but you could make it only one charge in exchange for even more damage during it

Which is what I would do

[worthy crag]

Wrath ~ Wod sub rogue and "1 dance build" sub rogue post-SL are two completely different beasts even though on the surface it's the same 1 dance charge

I think back in the wrath~wod days, if you screwed up your trinket, you were 100-0ed by the sub during dance and people could accept that

But post SL 1 charge is still 2 shadowstep charges, 2 vanishes, CDR on dance per combo point, etc

which is why they arent okay with it

[outer sky]

That's my point

I sacrificed all if that

Gave up 2 dances to just play 1

[worthy crag]

yes I know but

my point is, you still had 2 steps, 2 vanishes, and CDR on dance

oh and let's not forget duel I guess

since duel didn't exist in that old era

[outer sky]

I don't think i had 2 vanishes, but i don't remember. But it doesn't really matter because you couldn't do this one shot without blades

[worthy crag]

SL didn't give full combo points on blades right? that was a DF change

[outer sky]

And blades was a 3m CD

With no CDR

No it didn't

It was also a 3m CD

[worthy crag]

True

[outer sky]

And was needed

[worthy crag]

But still, idk. I don't think there's a world where 100-0ing through PS or GS is okay no matter how they fuck up

[potent pivot]

SL blades had CDR did it not

i swear it did

[outer sky]

Why? "I don't feel like sitting this stun so I'll just go ahead and fulfill the enemy teams one and only win condition" is probably the best reason to lose

[potent pivot]

not the base ability

but from something

[worthy crag]

Any CDR other than dance was gained thru invigorating shadowdust, which you wouldnt play on a 1 dance build

[potent pivot]

stiletto sticatto was a conduit or some shit

[worthy crag]

Right, forgot about that

[worthy crag]

I dont think it's that simple though

[potent pivot]

yeah i just remember it because it was bis in pve

[worthy crag]

I mean it is, against a 1 dance build sub rogue

[potent pivot]

may not have been in pvp i can't remember

[outer sky]

It never got it to be faster than trinket and even then duel was a static 2m

[worthy crag]

but its not a simple matter to say that they deserve to die thru CDs for commiting that mistake

Also conduit levels were dog in season 1 which is only season when 1 dance was a thing

[potent pivot]

it got as low as 1.5min

but that's with high uptime

and no slow offhand

[worthy crag]

I think with the current way sub is designed, like CDR on dance and multiple dance/step charges, a healthy burst for them to do would be like 65% at max on no defensive CDs

obviously ur talking about a 1 dance charge situation but

[outer sky]

Why? Just don't trinket unless you have to. Trinket is a cooldown. I'd ever pre-cloak a cyclone for no reason other than to not be bored for the next 6 seconds. And if I did and I got one shot by something cloak could have saved me from, then I deserved to die there

[worthy crag]

This is kind of a tangential point but like

if the viability of a build is determined entirely on one factor of pressing medallion or not, it most likely means the design is fundamentally flawed and needs to be addressed

which is what blizzard did

[outer sky]

You can argue it's bad game design which is fine

[worthy crag]

Its like you said

3200 player would just fall asleep on every kidney

until they see the rogue press duel

[outer sky]

But that's different than "OP"

[worthy crag]

thats not healthy gameplay

it's not even a proper "counterplay" it's just braindead knee slap response

[outer sky]

Sure even I agree it's a bad design

[worthy crag]

Wait

[outer sky]

I don't agree that it's OP though

[worthy crag]

oh right, your point is that they shouldnt have nerfed it because it isn't op. And I agree that it wasn't op

but not to 1650 players which blizz ultimately has to cater to

[outer sky]

Correct

[worthy crag]

And I personally dont think they are wrong for doing that

yeah, I mean. I agree that it wasnt OP

Because if mid tier players get fed up and stop playing

[potent pivot]

you guys talking about darkest night?

[worthy crag]

the higher tier players end up paying the price eventually

[potent pivot]

i haven't been following along

[outer sky]

Nah, SL S1 one dance sub rogue

[potent pivot]

oh word

[worthy crag]

You could look at even dumber examples

like double sub rogue stacking 10 charges of cloak and dagger in 2s

and shadowstriking for 80% of your health from each rogue

its op to low end players so it had to go

[potent pivot]

that was one of the weirdest one shots i've seen

[outer sky]

The range on dagger in the dark is fairly short

Any player with a brain would AoE you out when they saw the debuff on them

[worthy crag]

Yeah, but who in mid tier range really look up the range in the tooltip and think to counterplay with AOE when they see the charge going up

[outer sky]

Idk if it's healthy to balance the game around they tier either though

[worthy crag]

So I see your point, your perspective is that they should be punished until they learn to do that

I agree to some extent, but not really in depth

[outer sky]

I think 2200 ish is a good rating to balance around, give or take of course depending on season inflation

[worthy crag]

Tbh any discussion of a gimmicky one shot takes on a completely whole new flavor when it's about sub

because of the existence of duel

[outer sky]

Ya know duel used to be stronger

[worthy crag]

This would be like 100th time I say this but the spec would be better to balance if duel was removed

[outer sky]

It was a second longer

[severe helm]

thats why sub will never be balanced

its either F tier or S tier

if it cant one shot you in a duel it sucks

but if it can then its op as fuck

[worthy crag]

Duel is the fundamental reason they make sub do wet noodle damage and reduce them to be a kidney pet for a mage

[severe helm]

eh duel and bomb tbh

[worthy crag]

cuz the moment they do damage all hell breaks loose

[severe helm]

sub is just a poorly designed spec

youll never balance a spec that has a 7 second burst window and does nothing outside of it

[worthy crag]

A lot of sub players miss the days when they used to do meaningful damage with even backstab

but they conveniently forget that back then they didnt have duel

[severe helm]

Yeah it would be nice for sub to be tuned more like in between current outlaw and current sub

there were some brief metas in SL where it was kind of like that

[worthy crag]

id give up duel if that means I can do meaningful damage besides the 8 seconds im stacking 17 amplifiers

[severe helm]

but it still did too much burst

so rmp was S tier for the entire xpac haha

[severe helm]

just remove duel its a dumb ability haha

smoke bomb is enough

[worthy crag]

Yeah but then a lot of sub rogues lose their mind at the thought

like no offense to them but they do

[severe helm]

yeah cuz they arent actually good at pvp

they only know how to play one very specific wincon

put them in a scenario where they actually have to create pressure to win and suddenly they fall apart

they only know how to run away in between stun drs

and countdown from 3 with their team

[worthy crag]

yeah this since SL is like the biggest reason I grew really tired of queueing

its like, yeah okay cool, we can countdown on discord 97 games in a row, this is not interesting gameplay

[severe helm]

SL sub fire rmp hyper inflated sub rogue egos its insane

meanwhile the enemy team has to perfectly rotate defensives or they lose if they overlap cds just once

and the rmp just runs away without any defensive coordination at all

[worthy crag]

Yeah, a lot of things just boil down to counterplay

and duel just doesn't meet the bar

imo

Of course, it's also a problem if the counterplay is too easy

like fucking triple orc relent comps in legion

[severe helm]

I mean living against sub fire rmp is harder than playing sub fire rmp depending on what comp youre playing

some comps have too many answer

s

like ret war

and other comps have to play so perfectly and pre at least a few goes to even standa chance

[worthy crag]

ret war tier 1 since SL season 1 and stilllllll goin

[severe helm]

and you still cant kill the rmp before the priest is oom

any rmp that dies before their healer ooms is doing something very wrong lol

[outer sky]

Devils advocate here: I'm 50/50 on duel but the half of me that likes it likes it for the reason everyone else wants it removed. We've gone so far in the direction of turning pvp into pve against players and now people even at higher ratings send their trinkets so carelessly because it doesn't even feel like it matters. We have mages (including Cvark) regularly ice blocking off petty CC because who the fuck cares. Duel seems like the last remaining dose of "be careful how you use your cooldowns or you're gunna fucking die, noob" in the game and I like it for that. Which I think is also why a lot of people hate it. You queue into a game and see the enemy team has a sub rogue. Now you can't trinket because you got stunned for 2 seconds on avatar. You actually have to care. If anything I'd like to see more of that kind of thing in WoW pvp these days, not less.

[severe helm]

I think defensively rmp is the easiest comp to play

offensively it requires some effort but holy shit you can misplay defensives os badly as rmp and still win

[worthy crag]

I think it's a bit hasty to assume that, just because they are iceblocking or trinketing on a micro-cc, they are being careless

[severe helm]

well theres a lot to blame there tbh I think they need to bring back long cc but remove 3rd dr

healing is too strong you can top someones hp in like 2 globals

I think health pools need to be like doubled

someone shouldnt die in a 6 second stun

but also someone shouldnt go to full hp if their healer is out of cc for 2 seconds

[worthy crag]

A lot of times it can be a bad move, but also a lot of times they are doing it in a calculated manner because they need an immediate out from that micro cc to secure meaningful pressure

[severe helm]

it should take more work to bring someone back to safe

[worthy crag]

or they know they can manage it until its back up

[severe helm]

would also resolve issues with bullshit 1 shots

ngl the kidney shot cd extension is stupid

they should give cheap shot a cd

thats the most toxic thing about rogue in pvp

its the ONLY spammable cc in the game that can be applied to MULTIPLE targets at once

no other cc is like that

its literally only cheap shot

[worthy crag]

Damn ur opening a whole can of worms with that one

I personally would quit rogue the day I press dance and still only be able to stun 1 or 2 guy by combining kidney and cheap

[outer sky]

If they do that they can't lock it behind subterfuge windows anymore since the CD would likely cause it to only be usable once in that window

[severe helm]

thats the point haha

you shouldnt be able to triple cheap shot someone during your subterfuge

thats an 8 second stun

that cant be trinketed

tell me how thats not broken

[outer sky]

Because that's just one part of the kit and it's a trade off of CC during our highest dps window

[severe helm]

SL reinvented the meta of kidney the off target and triple cheap the kill target

[severe helm]

sub doesnt give a fuck about cheap shot during its dance window

all of your damage comes from finishers

it costs nothing to cheap shot vs shadowstrike

[outer sky]

No SS does damage that's why everyone hates backstab

[severe helm]

SS does not do damage lol what

[worthy crag]

I think that issue can be addressed by removing shadow blade's ability to fill up full CP with one generator

in this case, one cheap shot

[severe helm]

secretech is like 60% of your burst

30% is evisc haha

[potent pivot]

they're kinda even rn

[outer sky]

Sectec is hitting for like 350k and evisc for like 1m

That's just wrong

[potent pivot]

strike dmg might not be crazy but it still does do dmg

[severe helm]

I mean last time sub was relevant I mean

sub wasnt really played at all in s4

I mean it all contirbutes to the issue of sub which is an unbalanceable spec thats either S or F tier

[worthy crag]

Yeah ur talking about a case where cheap is busted during shadow blades cuz they can just cheap evis cheap evis cheap evis

If they just remove blades ability to fill whole cp with one global that solves itself

Without that cheap is fine

[outer sky]

You're also looking a gift horse in the mouth here. The general wow community is extremely simple minded. There are a lot of abilities similar to cheap shot in the game. They're just not called stuns. But if you're feared or disoriented and it doesn't break on damage before the duration expires, that's a stun, my guy. Regardless of what they call it in game

[severe helm]

I mean cheap shot has a real cost on like assa or outlaw even, sub by far has the least downsides to triple cheap shotting the kill target

[outer sky]

Warlocks can double stun

Coil and fear

It's not gunna break

[severe helm]

not even close to how op hceap shot is

[potent pivot]

i feel like i'd rather them make CS not generate cp

than do that

[outer sky]

You're stunned while moving involuntarily

[severe helm]

you can have cheap shot on two targets

fear is casted

[outer sky]

You can coil 2 targets

[severe helm]

like how do you even compare those lol

coil isnt spammable

[worthy crag]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's just 0 code in the game that makes a rogue ability not be a generator or spender.

[outer sky]

Cheap shot isn't spammable either

[severe helm]

I mean blind?

[worthy crag]

But that's an alternative.

[outer sky]

By your logic sap is spammable

[severe helm]

?

[worthy crag]

Well that's not really a

[outer sky]

It's locked behind long CDs

[worthy crag]

eh, maybe they do

[outer sky]

You can coil and fear whenever the button doesn't have a CD

[worthy crag]

I never really understood the design choice behind blades filling full cp

[potent pivot]

there is, we have a couple abilities that don't gen or spend

[severe helm]

cheap shot has 0 cd for 7 seconds out of every 20-30 seconds

not sure how that isnt spammable

lol

[worthy crag]

That kinda goes back to the point you were saying earlier, how healers can top someone off if they are out of CC for 2 seconds

[potent pivot]

it made it a more impactful CD, before it was pretty shit

[outer sky]

If you're not sure then you need to look up the definition of spammable I'm not going to explain that here

[severe helm]

I mean again the proof is in the pudding, sub has never been B tier for the past like 8 seasons

[outer sky]

DKs have a leg sweep

Nobody calls it that but they do

Locks can cheap shot 2 people in the same damn global

[worthy crag]

Like, sure CS is spammable, but the rogue also has to account for not leaving even a 0.2 second gap because it would kill the burst window

[severe helm]

its F or S and thats a problem

[outer sky]

Then 3x DR kidney shot someone

[potent pivot]

i think sub was B tier in s4

not F

[outer sky]

And they don't need CDs to do it

[severe helm]

aite thats a hot take

[potent pivot]

no it isn't

[severe helm]

lol

[outer sky]

And they don't need to be in melee

[potent pivot]

go look at the ladder

[worthy crag]

It also reduces the rationale behind taking deeper + secret strategem into a nobrainer

Any alternative build that doesn't take both of the two is a complete joke

[potent pivot]

plenty of people pulled off sub at a high level

[worthy crag]

I mean, hero talents doubling down on finishers is also to blame for that but still

[severe helm]

2400+ 3v3 in s4

sub B tier? notttt sure about that

1.59% of players

[outer sky]

Just because you can't trinket carelessly on CD against a rogue doesn't mean the kit is broken. It means you need to improve your gameplay. That's all.

[worthy crag]

You gotta take those lists with a grain of salt. Like

If sub and sin and outlaw are equally good

you can rest assured the least number of players will choose sub

even if its technically same tier

[severe helm]

Not sure how you think theres no in between there haha

a spec that automatically wins if the enemy poorly trinkets once

hmmm

hard to balance?

think so

lol

[outer sky]

They don't though lol

That's your poor gameplay showing again

If that was true we would all be multi glads or rank 1s

[severe helm]

If a sub rogue doesnt win if someone blows their trinket poorly thats their poor gameplay

[outer sky]

If all we needed was 1 bad trinket per game

[severe helm]

I mean go check out how many washed SL sub rogue r1 players there are

[outer sky]

Yeah see you're grotesquely misinformed and biased because you're misplaying

[potent pivot]

https://drustvar.com/leaderboard/3v3/rogue?region=us

[worthy crag]

Sub-comp should win against players who trinket poorly, yes.
Sub shouldnt one shot against players who trinket poorly through defensives

[severe helm]

I mean I could say the same about you haha you sound like a sub sympathizer

[severe helm]

you just linked the raw leaderboard what am I looking for here?

[outer sky]

I hardly even play sub my guy.

[potent pivot]

there's a few sub rogues at high rating

it was workable

[outer sky]

I only play it when it's by far the best rogue spec

[severe helm]

there were 0 sub rogue r1s p sure

[outer sky]

Or in RM 2s

[worthy crag]

That's exactly it though. Like I said you need to take those lists with a grain of salt for any pure dps classes

Esp for rogue

if they are equally all good across the 3 specs, sub will still be least popular

it's just the design

[severe helm]

Yeah I mean sub is so quickly abandoned when it doesnt just oneshot people in a duel

its a very toxic spec to play against and even to play as

its like frost dk dev

people hate that shit lol

[worthy crag]

Ehh, more like people just don't enjoy being a mage's kidney pet

Even if they are viable, they are still their pet

[severe helm]

the mage has been the pet for most of DF

[potent pivot]

even if not, that doesn't make it F tier

i mean that's just a dumb argument

[severe helm]

it doesnt, the 1% play rate does imo though

it was very bad in S4

[outer sky]

I mean this conversation is so silly I think we're all doing ourselves a disservice by engaging in it. Anyone with any ounce of common sense knows that a melee ranged stun locked behind cooldowns isn't a uniquely broken aspect of the game especially given all of the other similarly functional CCs there are that don't compete with DPS windows, require offensive CD usage, melee range, etc etc. This is forum bait at best

[potent pivot]

it wasn't F tier

[worthy crag]

Yeah I feel pretty strongly that cheap shot having no CD is not the reason sub is badly designed lol

[outer sky]

"Laughs in cata sub rogue"

[severe helm]

I think after years of blizzard attempting to balance rogue by adjusting damage and reducing blind duration etc and having one spec of rogue still be S tier is very clear evidence that theres some core aspects of rogue that make it almost always broken in every season

and in my opinion one of those broken aspects is spammable cheap shot

[worthy crag]

Idk, like that would be soooo far down the list of things to look at, behind removing duel/thiefs bargin/200 energy etc

[severe helm]

no but its part of the reason its so hard to balance

[outer sky]

I understand what you think, believe me. There's no confusion there. Sorry if I was ambiguous about that.

[worthy crag]

Like I said, exempt cheap shot from granting full CP during blades

honestly, problem solved

[severe helm]

balancing a spec that has that much spammable cc every dr is very difficult

the cd of being able to spam cheap shot is practically the same as the DR timer lolol

[severe helm]

yeah that could help too, thats effectively just making it harder to spam

or making it cost more rather

both are similar solutions imo

[worthy crag]

the reason sub is unpopular is because of how conscious it needs to be of GCD count

[severe helm]

increasing kidney shot cd is laughable

[worthy crag]

no other spec or class is as anal as sub on this matter

[severe helm]

I think its cuz of the other specs that were meta were just too hard for it to kill in its windows

[worthy crag]

Like back in legion we had to memorize how many globals we had to not leave a stun gap vs:
orc relent
orc trinket
non-orc relent
non-orc trinket

[severe helm]

it was very easy to live a sub go in S4

[harsh kiln]

Which is probably why its appealing for some people

[worthy crag]

Like

I fucking

still remember

[outer sky]

Yeah see this is factually incorrect. Make a rogue, go to a training dummy, spam your cheap shot bind, and you'll see how it actually functions and that it's not as spammable as many other CCs in the game and when it can be used has an opportunity cost. I think the fact that you've found yourself auto losing games vs a rogue due to one bad trinket is evidence enough that the issue is in your gameplay. Otherwise I'd be glad or r1 every season easy. We all here would be.

[worthy crag]

its 3.7 seconds of stun

vs orc relent

with full kidney

3.7

3.2 with cheap

[severe helm]

homie I play rogue thats why im in this discord hahaha

[worthy crag]

oh wait, like 2.8 with cheap

[severe helm]

I stun the entire enemy team every dr its amazing

[worthy crag]

not 3.2

[severe helm]

its so op

[worthy crag]

You can't really make a blanket argument on CS alone because it's just part of the GCD window

[severe helm]

Im not the best rogue but I have a couple r1 solos so im not talking out of my ass entirely man

[worthy crag]

cheap evis cheap evis cheap evis is very different from cheap evis shadowstike shadowstrike cheap evis

[outer sky]

Nobody stops you after a the 1st global or two? You have a stealth window every 20s? Idk what version of the game you're playing but man I gotta get in on that.

[severe helm]

no people dont always react within 0.8 sec gcd as outlaw

I grapple over to one target kidney then vanish step cheap kill target and off target

some people react in time

but its every 24 seconds man

its hard

[worthy crag]

but sub also doesnt have a win con unless they cross like that

[outer sky]

What rating is this? I try and do the same thing and I'm lucky if I get it off half the time

[worthy crag]

if they do, they just duel and so on

[severe helm]

thats why im saying its hard to balance

[severe helm]

like 27-2900

idk

[outer sky]

Similar then. Weird

[severe helm]

in solo I ended r2 as outlaw but outlaw cutoff was low so people played pretty bad

but still

to say rogue doesnt have the best and most op cc is kind of insane

[worthy crag]

stunning all 3 is honestly pretty difficult, esp in a non solo environment

[outer sky]

But then you certainly know that to do that you're losing crackshot uptime

[worthy crag]

easier if you mix in vanish but still

thats not really what you want to do

[severe helm]

yeah outlaws damage was piss though

so it didnt matter

irrelevant

[outer sky]

He's bluffing dude. Nahj has trouble doing that

[worthy crag]

Honestly though

trying to stun 3 is just a bad idea in general

[severe helm]

hahaha Im really not I mean people sometimes stop you

but check your drs

[worthy crag]

ur just better of stunning 2

[severe helm]

you can track when youre on dr

so you know its safe

I mean I dont always stun 3 it depends if I know whether that person has peels or not

[outer sky]

Yeah going for 3 is so unreliable it's like you're better off not even trying

[worthy crag]

it doesnt rly matter that im on dr though, 1 second scatter is all it takes to fuck a sub go

[outer sky]

Shhhhh you're not supposed to say that

[severe helm]

it really doesnt lol

if it did I would live a lot more sub goes

[outer sky]

Shit dude do you provide coaching?

You've got this figured out better than our rank 1s

I'd love to book a session

[severe helm]

apparently im the one that needs it cuz I cant stop a sub go with a small gust of wind like you guys can

[worthy crag]

well

what are you playing

into sub

I feel like outlaw should never lose to sub imo

[severe helm]

I mostly main outlaw sp some assa

[outer sky]

Any CC on dance is so bad man

[severe helm]

outlaw gets shit on by sub

outlaw beats assa though

outlaw has nothing during a stun that the other specs dont and cheap shot goes through evasion so youre pretty helpless

and its hard to end the game as outlaw before the sub can

[outer sky]

Well also

Outlaw doesn't have anything

[severe helm]

it feels easier to beat sub as assa

[outer sky]

To keep the rogue from stealthing clean

[severe helm]

yeah outlaw cant kill sub

[outer sky]

That's a big disadvantage of were talking rogue v rogue 1v1s

[severe helm]

they have to hope that the other dps is a bad mage or something

cant kill sub as outlaw

[worthy crag]

well maybe it's just the comp matchup and not really an issue with sub having access to 3 cheapshots

I mean, can you imagine what the sub will deal with against ret war if their CS was on CD

[outer sky]

Well with rogue v rogue 1v1s obviously whoever gets the opener has a major advantage

[worthy crag]

and like

I guaran fucking tee

with that kind of change on CS every RMX will be replaced with FMX and WWMX or WMX

or just sellout to double caster pve cleave with lock

[outer sky]

Yeah the life of the class is multi cheap shotting although with blizzard changing many fears and disorients to function as stuns we're slowly losing that edge

I love facing walking dead and I get fully leg swept into another full leg sweep just because they decided to call one of those leg sweeps blinding sleet instead

[worthy crag]

remove duel and make backstab do 10% of a healthbar

[severe helm]

exactly again

I mean a spec that has to be balanced around that is so hard to get right

you end up with rock paper scissors match ups

it just goes back to how problematic of a design it has

[outer sky]

That's just the game dude. RPS match ups is nothing new

[worthy crag]

I personally wouldn't mind blizz bring back relent trinket as a competing slot for medallion

[severe helm]

yeah it needs a lot more damage in between goes

[worthy crag]

to give people an option to run relent vs sub

[severe helm]

relent is very easy to cheese

you just sheep it off

oh wait relent is the 20% stun reduction right

[worthy crag]

no, that brings a whole new dynamic with GCD management

[severe helm]

im thinking of the auto trinket

adapt

[worthy crag]

lmao

yeah thats still in game, never been removed

[outer sky]

I like duel at least for its CC ability. Like dueling the healer so your teammates can finish. Maybe just make it so both players in duel can't be damaged by each other

[severe helm]

yeaaaaah I mean relent is an option but that feels like a weird bandaid fix

[severe helm]

yeah duel as a defensive tool or an alternative utility is fine

duel as a second smoke bomb is not okay

[worthy crag]

so rename it to something like shadowy honeymoon instead of shadowy duel

[severe helm]

haha

[outer sky]

It's never been a second smoke bomb. The rogues teammates can target through smoke bomb, not duel. Bomb is way more potent for getting a kill than duel is.

[worthy crag]

Depends

[severe helm]

eh idk you can run into a bomb

you cant run into a duel

[worthy crag]

I think 90% of the time it is safe to treat it as a second bomb

[severe helm]

yeup

in terms of trinket/defnesive usage

you have to plan to have something for both

Im more scared of duel usually

[worthy crag]

Alternatively, instead of touching CS cooldown they could reduce sub's access to stealth

[severe helm]

cuz bomb always forces something

[worthy crag]

Like thief's bargain

[outer sky]

I am so much more scared of bomb it's not even funny.

[worthy crag]

which would have to be compensated with dmg ofc

[severe helm]

it depends what type of healer you have too

some healers can heal into duel more easily

and with bomb positioning can negate it a lot more easily too

[outer sky]

Not really, what goes through bomb goes through duel and vice versa

[severe helm]

yeah but you can get into the bomb is my point haha

[worthy crag]

ofc, any good sub rogue will cheap the healer running into the bomb

before they actually enter

[severe helm]

it doesnt even need to be the healer

like the other dps might also be in the bomb

[worthy crag]

true

[outer sky]

I guess if the rogue bombs close to the enemy healer and the rest of his team doesn't do anything? I think what you're trying to say is "it's easier to misuse bomb than duel" which I agree with

[severe helm]

using bomb as a rogue feels less like a secure kill than duel

duel is literally a duel lol unless they have some 200iq mage thats gona db you in the duel its pretty safe

[worthy crag]

you need more coordination to make bomb work, yes

[severe helm]

yeah 100%

bomb is easier to counter

in so many ways

[outer sky]

Presses DB where the duel happened = 200 IQ

[severe helm]

you can move in the duel lol

its easier to db a bomb than a duel

everything is harder to stop from duel

also duel is a lower cd LOL

[worthy crag]

they are both 2 min on sub

[severe helm]

bomb is 2 min on sub????

[outer sky]

Yeah but if the rogue isn't an idiot he won't duel for a kill unless the target is stunned

[worthy crag]

are you sure you climbed high as sub?

[severe helm]

you mean if youre spending vanishes

[worthy crag]

yeah, bomb is 2 min by default on sub

[outer sky]

2900 rogue LMFAO

[severe helm]

I didnt climb as high as sub no I play outlaw->assa-> sub in terms of time played

[outer sky]

Oh boy this just keeps getting better lol

[severe helm]

I honestly never knew lol

[worthy crag]

Ok, that makes more sense cuz I was really raising my eyebrows on the viability of stunning all 3 in high mmr

cuz like that really

really

really

doesnt happen

[outer sky]

I just chalked it up to trolling

[worthy crag]

you can kinda do it one go by committing both shadowstep charges but

after that have fun waddling at 40% move speed for the next 30 seconds

[outer sky]

That's a hail mary play

[worthy crag]

Sub committing 2 step charges in one go is almost a harder throw than trinketing air

[severe helm]

triple stun is a lot easier as outlaw just mobility wise

[potent pivot]

[severe helm]

lol Im not trolling I swear

I just had no idea bomb was shorter as sub I never checked lol

I figured when facing sub it was just from dust

[worthy crag]

To give you the benefit of the doubt, alot of subs dont even run bomb

its disarm thiefs bargain and duel being top 3

or season 3, they used clock over disarm

[severe helm]

disarms pretty comp specific

[worthy crag]

cloak*

[severe helm]

cloak was op that def needed removing

the dodge was unecessary lol

[outer sky]

Hey notrickz, you ever met an almost 3k rated rogue who can reliably triple stun the whole other team and win the game by default every time if one person misuses trinket but also doesn't know what that CD on smoke bomb is? Personally I haven't but I figured I'd check with you just in case for a second opinion.

[severe helm]

so salty man ahha

didnt know saying sub was op would trigger you

[worthy crag]

Yeah, Id suggest trying to play sub at the same level as your other specs and seeing how it would feel to imagine having CS behind a cooldown

[severe helm]

you ahrd stuck as sub or something to take it so personally?

[worthy crag]

Hey like I said

the moment you brought the CS CD thing

[outer sky]

I was just asking him a question that's all.

[worthy crag]

You opened an entire can of worms

[severe helm]

knew he was a sub sympathizer

I could smell it on him

[potent pivot]

i don't really put a weird amount of stock into people's rating when it comes to discussion/knowledge.
i also don't like rating being used against anyone or people using it as an excuse that "they're right you're wrong" kinda thing

[severe helm]

from the moment he started typing

[worthy crag]

I think they were saying they also main outlaw

if anything I'm the sub sympathizer

I dont touch the other two specs

[severe helm]

I think they said they only play sub when its "op in 2s"

[worthy crag]

I mean, that's fair. A lot of people do that

[severe helm]

tru

[outer sky]

I've played sub the least of any rogue spec. It's the only one I haven't been 2400+ on

[potent pivot]

the fuck is a sub sympathizer

[outer sky]

But I know how it works

[potent pivot]

we all play rogue

we should all want all 3 specs to be decent

[severe helm]

I play rogue but I can be honest with what I think is broken about the spec

[worthy crag]

eh

debatable.

[outer sky]

Someone who knows what smoke bombs CD is

[severe helm]

some people lie to themselves and pretend the class isnt insanely strong

[worthy crag]

I mean I wouldnt define sub sympathizer as someone who wants sub to be top dog and the other 2 remain just keystone/raid specs

but like someone who'd fiercely defend CS not having a CD

then sure

id be a sympathizer

[severe helm]

can we stop pretending like rogue isnt in like almost every awc in high representation

[worthy crag]

now that you can't just say "rogue"

you have to be spec specific

[severe helm]

yeah but you recognize the problem with cheap shot being so easily integratable into the burst rotation

I like the idea of it not giving cps

thats a good solution too

[potent pivot]

rogue also just has an bigger number of insane players that play it man

[worthy crag]

Thats why I said, prvent CS from granting full CP

[severe helm]

cuz an insane player on rogue is super high impact

[worthy crag]

but locking it behind CS is too far

[severe helm]

you can be insane on another spec and not make as much value

[worthy crag]

uh

I assume you haven't seen wizk on spriest or jellybeans on hunter

[severe helm]

jellybeans hasnt had impact on hunter in a while

[worthy crag]

well dude's old, duh

im saying like in his prime

[severe helm]

wizk is insane but he even has to swap specs when sp isnt meta

hes not old lol

hes younger than most of the winning players

how old do you think whaaz or cdew is

hes the same age as all of them if not on the younger side, p sure hes closer to pikas age than sterges

[worthy crag]

Anyway, not sure I agree on "other specs have less impact"

harder to notice, maybe

[outer sky]

Cdew is old I think

Like

Late 30s

[severe helm]

yeah hes like 34ish?

[worthy crag]

hes like 32

[severe helm]

but theres not too many other specs that you can ONLY main and still be relevant in almost every season of awc

[outer sky]

Pika and whaazz are in their mid 20s

[worthy crag]

see that's like

a weird way of putting it

you can't main a rogue SPEC and be relevant in every season of awc

[severe helm]

no but the class you can

[worthy crag]

you CAN main rogue as a whole and be relevant

[severe helm]

luckily rogue has 3 dps specs haha

[potent pivot]

even some of the awc players have swapped off rogue

[severe helm]

mage is also often relevant probalby due to the same reason but also probably because mage also has a high skill cap

[potent pivot]

multiple times in the past

[severe helm]

but yeah rogue def has one of the higher skill caps out of the dps specs

[outer sky]

Didn't pika play DH last AWC?

[worthy crag]

also people conveniently forgot that rogue is one of the classes that took the longest to achieve the first blizzcon victory

[potent pivot]

whaazz has played warr multiple times i think

[severe helm]

yeah whaaz is a huge multiclasser

but he goes back to sub rogue a lot fo the time when everyone else isnt even playing it in that tourney

[worthy crag]

It's a huge pet peeve personally when people look at a "spec" being played in AWC and point fingers at "rogue" being op