But I believe you
#pvp
outer sky
outer sky
But no I think it matters a bit. Because if you're am aggressive player and you're always in the action, you're pressing FoK a lot more. So that crit will make more of a difference than if you play like me and just get your bleeds up and run away until you need to reapply them
outer sky
sin was pretty bad s1
I got my 1st ever 2400 as assass in S1 SL
Granted I exploited the fuck out of the crit leggo
And MfD
potent pivot
But no I think it matters a bit. Because if you're am aggressive player and you'...
i mean even just your dots critting is still value
outer sky
Yeah but 3% more crits vs the increased flat damage of vers and mastery
outer sky
gunna queue a skirm so we can see the actual stat differences rq
No 4 set
4 set
deduct 2% mastery
shaman buffed me
2% from the 4 set one
potent pivot
so +2% crit +1% haste -4% mastery -1% vers +5% dam from set
i don't know if shaman buff is a flat 2% like it reads
outer sky
it is
potent pivot
since mastery is different for every class i don't think that's how it works
potent pivot
it seems close enough that you could do whatever you wanted to really
personally i don't think we'll run that little crit regardless
so i don't think it's going to end up being an issue running the set
potent pivot
basically the same ye
personally i have a feeling we'll be running some crit/vers pieces and not FULL crafted gear
outer sky
5% mastery and 1% vers in exchange for 2% crit and 1% haste
potent pivot
so considering i'd drop ~10% of that mastery for crit/vers anyway
the set would only be an added bonus
potent pivot
5% mastery and 1% vers in exchange for 2% crit and 1% haste
i mean the mastery is basically just =/=
you're gaining the 5% from the set
potent pivot
you're only getting 50% uptime?
potent pivot
kinda seems like it's designed to have really high uptime
outer sky
usually its around 50%
outer sky
whenever its close to 60% there's a UDK in the lobby
because 2 set can proc off the pets
potent pivot
yeah i figured it would
potent pivot
whenever its close to 60% there's a UDK in the lobby
Did you ever try shit like deadly poison
Just to see how much it was doing
outer sky
no havent tried that
outer sky
regardless, it probably wouldn't be worth dropping our MS for it
outer sky
oh there's just no good way to get to it
you have to invest 2 points in poison bomb
one thing I am considering though
not that we have 6s subterfuge
is dropping IC for KB
maybe into some caster cleaves where everyone is too spread
outer sky
yikes dropping garrote silence?
potent pivot
fuck me
didn't realize
well with silence you'd have to drop sudden demise and CT
well
you could choose between CT and TTK
main choice here would be either AP or SD
dropping AP just sounds miserable
tawdry imp
turbo noob question here but is slice and dice an increase on just autoattack or on all melee attack speed?
outer sky
Just auto attacks
potent pivot
auto attack
potent pivot
well with the way sin plays rn you don't really need it
you kinda want to have it up before you try to close out a kill i guess
outer sky
I just wish it had a meaningful interaction
potent pivot
have definitely seen some people not even remember to press it some matches
on sin i mean
outer sky
Like with sub it increases combo point procs
potent pivot
i wish it was deleted from the game
outer sky
I do too
sharp sierra
I LOVE COCAINE!
potent pivot
if our autos generated rage or something i could see why it would exist
but it literally does nothing
outer sky
A meaningless maintenance buff that you feel obligated to press to min max
tawdry imp
never understood why people say to always keep it up, how much damage do we really do with auto attacks?
potent pivot
you don't need to keep it up like 100% uptime
you just want it up before you get ready to close out a kill
as outlaw you def want it up 100%
outer sky
Imagine SnD being the difference between getting the kill and not
potent pivot
as sub/sin you just press it a while before you kidney the KT
sharp sierra
did you guys see the buff compensation to kidney shot? to compensate for the 30 second nerf, they are extending kidney shot stun duration to 10 seconds
outer sky
did you guys see the buff compensation to kidney shot? to compensate for the 30 ...
Stop
sharp sierra
lol
potent pivot
Imagine SnD being the difference between getting the kill and not
imagine you missing the kill because you didn't have it up
i'd be pissed
tawdry imp
i am a big scrub noob but nothing about slice and dice strikes me as an ability I want to ever have to press or think about
isn't that an obvious candidate for pruning
outer sky
Doesn't sub want it up basically all the time for the shadow techniques procs?
potent pivot
ehh
it's kind of inbetween outlaw and sin
a lot of people run slow OH on sub
like a sword/mace/axe
just for mastery
which is the dumbest shit
i've ever seen in this game
because doing so effectively nerfs yourself because of shtech procs
outer sky
Yeah they're missing out on a lot or free combo points
Tbh I think if SnD is going to exist it should exist as a passive talent on the class tree that just increases auto attack speed by 50%
potent pivot
yep
i honestly have no idea where they're going design direction wise these days
start of DF seemed like they were going in a good direction with talent trees etc
but it's kinda been straight back downhill since
tawdry imp
I would love to see their internal stats on what classes do well in pvp and at what skill level
because I'm trash I never play other rogues who are noticeably frustrating or so much worse than say, a DK
like how popular/dominant is sub rogue when you're 2k+
was kidney shot really that oppressive at some ratings vs all the other cc
halcyon timber
Fear pretty much being a stun these days too
And ice nova procs ok roots from mage not dr
Kidney propaganda just finally worked was all. Meanwhile 1.9M noncrit chaos bolts are cool.
chrome schooner
SnD's interaction with Assa are poison procs
Because the spec is designed with Deadly Poison in mind, and possibly Dragon-Tempered Blades and/or Kingsbane
And with those SnD is very important
But in PvP, with buids that don't use Deadly Poison and that either don't use Kingsbane, or use it only for the initial hit and ot the DoT ramp up, then yes SnD doesn't do much
grave basin
is it not possible to get trophy of strife anymore
damn
@outer sky ahve you tested outlaw
im seeing tyga play and killing spree slaps now
like his top damage
and btw, it's this weapon enchant that every ww is using now
suffocating darkness
indigo hill
is it not possible to get trophy of strife anymore
You can get them from the weekly quest but not buy them at malicia.
grave basin
yea rip my alts
indigo hill
I feel you. Started a new rogue on alliance and the gearing has been slow.
indigo hill
Not much at this point. Gonna get new gear in 2 weeks.
sharp sierra
god damn this game is so dead
sharp sierra
seems that way
wintry dew
Yeah game was dead from the start
shy nebula
im so fed with resto druids
they're so terribly op
jesus christ
I just faced a sub rogue that dealt 100k dmg with an eviscerate with full CDs and the avg joe with resto druid deals 200k of an instant crit wrath
XD
halcyon timber
Working as intended man. Nothing to see here.
Meanwhile 400k+ hits from rets and feral bites and aimed shots.
surreal barn
That’s what happens when shadowblades fills up your combo points for 20 whole seconds
😂
shy nebula
you...deal less dmg than a healer...?
surreal barn
🙌
shy nebula
fun!
warped gate
you...deal less dmg than a healer...?
I'm getting outperformed by fuckers in greens.
If they're the right class that is.
shy nebula
I'm getting outperformed by fuckers in greens.
LMAO
warped gate
Feels bad man.
shy nebula
it does indeed
warped gate
We're all just lightly tickling each other's balls in arena if we're physical DPS'ers.
indigo lava
hey
shy nebula
nope
indigo lava
could you tell me please about the PVP spec?
grave basin
ive disabled every addon
indigo lava
which one is simple to play for the beginer?
indigo lava
whats your favorite?
shy nebula
Assas
indigo lava
can you share your talent please?
shy nebula
sure
CMQA27SZpS4XnmFfcXRqkppuwzMjZmxMDAAAAAAYWmxsNDAAAAAAtsNMjhBzMzyYwMjZGzMzYmxy22YGGAAAAAAMD
if you don't want to go tricks you can just change it
indigo lava
thanks
shy nebula
np
grave basin
assas is by far the easiest of the 3 specs
grave basin
i mean easiest in comparison
with the removal of nightstalker snapshotting it's gotten even easier
and i heard you dont even play KB anymore, one less bind
halcyon timber
after the maintenance
Def mc fucked on fps sometimes and bad lag .
halcyon timber
I'm getting outperformed by fuckers in greens.
Yeah the beta patching next week will help sightly but it is the armor values being doubled that is screwing us. Once we get to 80 it will normalize out once again. Def sucks atm though.
warped gate
Yeah, but the crappy thing is there's still plenty of PvP and shit to be had in prepatch and Blizz is really content with making it unplayable for a ton of folks.
swift smelt
We're all just lightly tickling each other's balls in arena if we're physical DP...
prepatch or beta
warped gate
Prepatch.
Only reason I'm still playing is to practice since I'm a new rogue, I still gotta get the rotation and shit down to muscle memory.
halcyon timber
Just weird af that shit that already does a fuck ton per global gets buffed while we pay the price because someone got gang fucked behind a dennys by a group of rogues back in 2010
swift smelt
Only reason I'm still playing is to practice since I'm a new rogue, I still gott...
same boat brother
halcyon timber
Yeah keep at it, just really irritating atm as everyone is taking 24% or more less damage atm from us
Been a rogue a long time, this shit is just irritating af
We will have our revenge when armor is set at 80
Definitely taking it out on everyone. Had enough of fat fuckin bears hopping around meme’ing and shit
shy nebula
We will have our revenge when armor is set at 80
I hope so
halcyon timber
On beta , it is normalized again
Just on live bc of the slinky effect everyone has double fuckin armor
2 weeks, we will ride again and smoke the fuck out of all people. Scorched earth.
Definitely over the cc tax bullshit though. Really getting old fast .
grave basin
if you have access to beta, just play that
retail is too unbalanced
not only is it completely unbalanced but there's no catch up mechanics
plucky escarp
and i heard you dont even play KB anymore, one less bind
What do you play instead of Kingsbane?
shy nebula
im still playing KB in prepatch
grave basin
kinda stupid how much damage is loaded into hero talents but it is what it is
quaint cedar
Same thing for outlaw. The coin is always in my top 3 on details
shy nebula
Fun
grave basin
with his celestial conduit
so it's not just rogues
he pressed one button and it did 3m dam
quaint cedar
Yeah and you can't gouge or blind it either. I think stuns work
You can also out range it maybe or use cloak. But if you vanish it will still hit you because it's aoe
Really don't like stuff like that tbh
grave basin
you cant evasion it
grave basin
all i know is beta is WAY more fun
jolly sierra
so it's not just rogues
they are using SEF wtf
grave basin
well yea theres no more serenity
jolly sierra
but hmm thought they did the same in DF prepatch
grave basin
p r u n e d
steep oasis
can you still get the 1800 set in preptach or is that gone
halcyon timber
Yeah and you can't gouge or blind it either. I think stuns work
Yeah only stuns. Its dumb. Im not peeling for shit anymore at this point. Putting ourselves on dr delay when people can press 1 of their 14,000 defensives and unnerfed self healing to save their own asses instead sucks.
outer sky
is there a way to scroll back further on a details death log?
grave basin
what are frost mages
how was destro eaten 10000 nerfs and ice lance has been critting 1mil for weeks
outer sky
Mage is blizzards favorite class
halcyon timber
Dunno locks do 1.9M chaos bolts now
outer sky
Honestly it's their mobility and passive slows/roots thay bug me
halcyon timber
I don’t feel bad for harry potter classes at all
halcyon timber
Yeah they def aren’t going to remove the proc nova
Its all ultra fuckin dumb
Succubus shakes her butt at you and you get bolted and feared 2x dr into coil but by all means nerf rogue bc forum propaganda demands it
grave basin
i swear on god
no cap
rogues dont feel too insane
maybe cause im not using full le crafted max mastery
halcyon timber
Shouldn’t be encouraged to do that bullshit
halcyon timber
Working as in god damn tended
grave basin
and voldermort
aka dk
i mean if wizards are already good in s1 with low secondaries
halcyon timber
Yeah god damn hogwarts
grave basin
that gotta be a bad sign
especially for assa
where you cant cleave in wizard lobbies
halcyon timber
So much instant casting as well from a lot of the sissy ass pajama classes
halcyon timber
Jk non dr hooker totem root
Hur hur lava burst for what you do while bursting except they do it all game
They will buff idiot dh too and ret for zero reason and somehow get us blamed
halcyon timber
weird how there's only 5 killing blows
4 games won too many man . Inc nerf .
swift smelt
<@629463378250956810> Garrote lol
is the idea to get garrotte on everyone?
outer sky
is the idea to get garrotte on everyone?
Yes
Something I've noticed
Our damage is extremely front loaded
You can output a ton of pressure as long as you have constant uptime on empowered garrotes and are silencing>stunning the healer off DR
Once you run out of ways to get into stealth, your pressure let's up tremendously
I may have to play around a bit more with conserving my stealths
But I'm also playing blind
I have no addons
Fuck blizzard for fixing the vanish bug
steel scarab
What was the vanish bug?
indigo hill
Why are resto druids doing so much dps?
waxen meteor
What was the vanish bug?
i think he was able to vanish with no cd
wintry dew
What was the vanish bug?
extra garrote dmg and more CPs than it was supposed
waxen meteor
yeah but you know it's gonna be fixed
halcyon timber
That’s like the destro chaos bolt machine gun bug that wasn’t intended . People shouldn’t be screeching fun detected and shit
lucid loom
A random question, I just got the feel for some rated BG's and such, but I didn't get any rating when we won. Is it closed off for the season?
potent pivot
A random question, I just got the feel for some rated BG's and such, but I didn'...
no, sometimes the rating is just slow
lucid loom
no, sometimes the rating is just slow
Great, thanks!
spring bough
cant decide on my dk or hunter if i dont like outlaw for season one of TWW lol
halcyon timber
I think this man just declared war
Smoke em. The true trashbags are the 2 supporting that scumbag.
waxen meteor
in a way, wow share dr between teammate thing can be a bit dated design
halcyon timber
Yeah dunno whats next but tune in to next episode of dragon ball z
blissful osprey
I reckon wow pvp would really benefit from more universal animations
I.e when your slowed for example you have a red circle under your character model, no matter what effect applied the snare
It’s better for spectators and also for players to understand what’s happening without needing to know how every single class works.
Another example on shield breaks. Think halo 3 shield breaking, one of the most iconic animations is that little gold spark. Now apply that to all wow shields breaking or wall expiring
Same for when wall is up or a defensive.. that way we wouldn’t need omnicd, bigdebuffs and chaotic UI’s to track stuff which just bloats the experience
cursive sonnet
I reckon wow pvp would really benefit from more universal animations
I.e when ...
did you read TWW patch notes?
halcyon timber
Yeah the universal update was applied in early alpha and it is on live client already. If people can't see that then I dunno what to tell them. It is very noticeable.
halcyon timber
Halo shield animations were cool too
We will have our revenge rogues just hold on
steel scarab
It's amazing you figured out how to do that
Also amazing that Arena queues in this game are so unreasonable that we've normalized leaving the computer while we wait our turn to play the game
surreal barn
The way I have it set up i can have my phone ring
Text, email, lights turn off
Sit a dummy phone in the room (phone can be locked).
On iOS open Settings and record a custom Sound Recognition sound - in our case the queue pop. Next open up iOS Shortcuts and have your dummy phone text/call/email you whenever it hears that sound
Works flawlessly 😂
Works with /readycheck too
Added that one in
muted abyss
kidney shot 30 second cooldown and gouge nerfed by 1 second lol
Blizz really hates playing against rogues huh?
shut nova
hey guys, there's any addon that tells you what's breaking your stealth?
like a combat log
i'm getting destealthed during bgs and that and it's so annoying
muted abyss
There has been a stealth bug for quite a while
shut nova
yeah it's insane 😠
muted abyss
Are you using a spammable stealth macro?
shut nova
yup
shut nova
but is like, i'm walking around a bg or something like that and i get this destealths
and ofc dying to it
sick wasp
and ofc dying to it
its because stealth macros backfire or can backfire or u can have ur stealth break coz there are some bugs in the game that allow it
shut nova
I see, game bug then
cosmic frigate
what spec is generally better for pvp sub or assassination?
muted abyss
what spec is generally better for pvp sub or assassination?
either is good, just depends on which spec you like to play more
sub is better at 1v1 for sure though
sick wasp
what spec is generally better for pvp sub or assassination?
Sub is extremely powerful in the right hands,even when tuning doesnt favor it
if u are new to rogue just start with sin
odds are u wont be able to handle sub,its fundamentally hard to play
cosmic frigate
alright sounds good thank you for the reply.
worthy crag
breaking my blind is a legimate offense
dud just dont press it, im doing 3 target dps
cosmic frigate
Very different from unholy dk lol
sick wasp
alright sounds good thank you for the reply.
u r welcome friend
worthy crag
doesnt unholy dk require like 200 iq with its infinite number of CDs? at least in pve
if you have good awareness of what to press at a given moment, sub can be the right call
sick wasp
dud just dont press it, im doing 3 target dps
im either presing it early or not at all,thats true
also,no one cares how many targets ppl dps,u just need to kill one
u arent parsing in rated arenas
proven field
There a solid outlaw spec floating around? Or is the armor reset just making it not fun until 80?
potent pivot
There a solid outlaw spec floating around? Or is the armor reset just making it ...
whatever people are running will be on murlok.io
but also yeah armor is making outlaw tough rn
proven field
Ok Nahj time to once again entirely copy your build
potent pivot
Ok Nahj time to once again entirely copy your build
stoic spruce
Who's not taking crackshot?
proven field
crit or mast? I always loved the feeling of mast
stoic spruce
Crit
potent pivot
Who's not taking crackshot?
most people aren't
potent pivot
sorry i was tripping
i was thinking wickers for some reason
where did you come up with "whos not taking crackshot"
stoic spruce
HO has more picks than crackshot
potent pivot
there's like 3 people that take wickers over crackshot
potent pivot
prolly because of losing dance
either testing out the more consistent dmg profile of wickers or they think it's better
potent pivot
not everyone plays the same
stoic spruce
Before they unnerfed
stoic spruce
Yeah gsw is probably better for that really
Rough to test in prepatch tho
Feels bad regardless
Since it didn't get unnerfed, I'm probably playing that in tww
Fatebound capstone uptime will be high no doubt
I seent that Sap
The dmg from not using bte outside of crackshot is negligible
Just put it back and don't use it unless vanish has over 45 seconds of its cd left
proven field
ah right I remember now.. but I don't bother trying to keep the crit buff up in between?
stoic spruce
You can, just make sure vanish has over 45 seconds of cd left
Otherwise it's desynced
It's easier to hold if you like
Hold bte I mean
potent pivot
ah right I remember now.. but I don't bother trying to keep the crit buff up in ...
certain words are filtered here, that could've been considered evading said filter so i'm just letting you know not to repeat stuff like that 
proven field
Sorry homie what word? I don't think I am following
austere thorn
Are the outlaw buffs announced earlier this week for 11.0.2 already live on beta? It says on the post it goes live august 12 but apparently some changes are alrdy live?
potent pivot
Are the outlaw buffs announced earlier this week for 11.0.2 already live on beta...
ye
none of those changes are on live until the 13th
all of them have already been on beta for a while
on the 13th they're all being pushed onto the actual live game, prepatch
austere thorn
Ohh I see
proven field
they dont feel live, I am doing zero dmg as outlaw.. like 100k burst 😒
potent pivot
!nodamage
lethal roostBOT
Armor values are either bugged or scaled for level 80, so physical damage is much weaker than it was before 11.0.0, this is causing Outlaw and somewhat Subtlety to feel unplayable currently.
potent pivot
you're not going to do proper damage until level 80 most likely
austere thorn
I did 2 shuffles on beta
1 as outlaw 1 as sub
Both are feeling more than fine tbh
austere thorn
Last time I played outlaw was before crackshot work which was kinda dog
Never touched it after the rework
potent pivot
but all 3 specs do seem to be doing okay so far on beta
sub might not end up being "meta" because it could end up needing to be played really well to do well
austere thorn
Oh I dont mean to say OP or anything but it felt better than s1-2 DF
But again as u said, sample size 1
potent pivot
once the season starts it'll all get figured out pretty quickly
austere thorn
Maybe we'll get 1 season where rets are complete garbage? Here is hoping
potent pivot
austere thorn
😦
potent pivot
so far everything seems pretty good
i can't really say i've seen any class/spec that's not doing decently
austere thorn
Ngl I kinda giggled irl when I pressed killing spree and enemy hp went down
potent pivot
i haven't seen much boomie/dh/hunter tho
i've heard surv is good, dh is okay
i've heard nothing about boomie at all
feral's def pretty good
austere thorn
Like I said I didnt play outlaw after the crackshot rework and at the time our damage was super piss so it feels nice
potent pivot
yeah outlaw's dam across the board looks a little bit better
dispatches doing a few hundred K
austere thorn
i've heard surv is good, dh is okay
Surv feels kinda meh atm... Mongoose bite does no damage and all the dmg comes from bombs and explosive shot procs
Feels too pveish so I might hop back on the rogue
proven field
its suffering the same physical dmg issues outlaw is, it'll even out at 80
proven field
only issue with surv is how easy it is to spec into endless bombs
and how that kinda becomes the only thing you do
austere thorn
They reworked it with only m+ in mind it feels like
grave basin
Everything feels pve
stoic spruce
Like I said I didnt play outlaw after the crackshot rework and at the time our d...
Crackshot rework?
stoic spruce
Wdym feels like pve
austere thorn
Everything is AOE
potent pivot
Surv feels kinda meh atm... Mongoose bite does no damage and all the dmg comes f...
yeah i was kinda surprised to hear it was doing well, but that's just what i heard from somone so there's no telling really
grave basin
Surv feels kinda meh atm... Mongoose bite does no damage and all the dmg comes f...
I feel ya on this
When 95% of your dam is from ranged spells , is it even a hybrid melee/ranged anymore
Outlaw feels more hybrid spec at this point
tired crypt
potent pivot
<:bla:1264689429424115795>
sick wasp
<:bla:1264689429424115795>
if i ever learn u started pvping without letting me know ill gank u so much u will have to migrate to korea 
respectfully
🫶
also
indigo hill
It's a fun spec.
worthy crag
is armor fixed?
tired heron
Is Blind > Sap possible in retail nowadays?
worthy crag
Only in very niche cases
tired heron
can you elaborate when?
worthy crag
like if you are tryhard enough to calculate the caster's global which is normally 1.2~1.5 seconds
worthy crag
if you see em cast an ability, blind like 1.2~ sec after while they are still GCD locked
and the full duration of blind will be enough to put them out of combat
to sap
tired heron
ye cuz blibd is 5 and combat is 6
thanks
now they nerf kidney too lol
we warriors now
worthy crag
did they?
potent pivot
worthy crag
Ima try to find the link to the page with that kidney change
potent pivot
Ima try to find the link to the page with that kidney change
check pins
worthy crag
maybe, im just not really sure what sub could even do at this point
just afk backstabbing for 30 seconds I guess?
tired heron
sin cant play anymore
potent pivot
the same thing it always does?
worthy crag
no, it cant do the same thing it always does because now it'll have to vanish or activate dance for the first stun
potent pivot
all 3 specs are looking pretty decent
worthy crag
which makes sub even more telegraphed
potent pivot
i don't think it matters
worthy crag
oh it definitely matters lol
potent pivot
it doesn't
worthy crag
how does it not?
potent pivot
sub has even more access to stealth than before
worthy crag
subterfuge means nothing for sub because it doesnt amp damage
danceless subt still does 0 dmg
tired heron
but you comparing CS to KS which are not the same
tired heron
assa will suffer since it needs to kite 10 more seconds
potent pivot
i'm assuming not with the way you're talking
worthy crag
have you not seen how sub gets nerfed in the first 4 days of every season in the last 3 expansions dating since bfa? You could speak on data from beta but I can speak on data from the past 6 years
potent pivot
i'm not going to sit here and talk about a hypothetical nerf that might or might not happen
that's a waste of my time
tired heron
you engaged it
worthy crag
eventually without exception they nerf its dmg such that its only hope for doing any impact during a setup is to stack all of its amplifiers
potent pivot
you engaged it
???
i engaged discussion about kidney shot being nerfed, that is already done
worthy crag
If you are telilng me that sub is doing meaningful damage without SoD & SD, just purely from subterfuge, you are basically telling me it will get nerf batted
potent pivot
we talked u intervened and now u dont wanna talk about it
i don't want to talk about sub being nerfed in season 1 of a season that hasn't started yet
because you have zero way of knowing if it will be nerfed or not
like that's dumb
worthy crag
Like
tired heron
oh I misunderstood u then
worthy crag
telling me that subterfuge by itself is impactful damage is the same as telling me that sub damage is just pure broken with symbols and dance stacked on top
thats just how the spec is designed
potent pivot
i engaged discussion over the kidney shot nerf, because it really isn't that bad, and does affect sin more than sub or outlaw
tired heron
telling me that subterfuge by itself is impactful damage is the same as telling ...
shadow dance is useless without damage amps since WOTLK so tbh if anything u r right
tired heron
i engaged discussion over the kidney shot nerf, because it really isn't that bad...
this I agree but imo assa suffers big due to the nerf
worthy crag
the whole design philosophy behind sub is that it will do wet noodle damage without committing symbols and dance
tired heron
10 more seconds to sustain enemy pressure is big
worthy crag
and if that design is not working as intended, like when subterfuge by itself is doing alot of damage, that means it will be nerfed
potent pivot
telling me that subterfuge by itself is impactful damage is the same as telling ...
i said that it doesn't matter because we have more access to stealth
you're not the only one doing damage in a match
tired heron
the whole design philosophy behind sub is that it will do wet noodle damage with...
this is the whole philosophy about WoW since 5.x patch
worthy crag
going up from 3 second subt to 6 doesn't mean "more" access to stealth though..?
potent pivot
yes it does?
worthy crag
like I said, double vanish isnt new, the only thing new is the 3 extra seconds of subterfuge
why?
2 sec sub, 7 sec subt, 11 sec sutb
literally doesnt make a difference
it's "one" stealth
its the same DR
ur not gonna get two DRs over a 11 second suberfuge
potent pivot
it's more seconds of stealth regardless
worthy crag
if your team has a brain theyll DB and chastise anyway
who cares if its 3 vs 6
or 19
or 17
or 12
potent pivot
whatever man
worthy crag
im not dooming, i honestly dont give a fuck lol
i already play surv more than rogue as is
im just saying that 20 -> 30 sec kidney isnt impactful is delusional
because it is
esp for sub
like how are you going to GAIN access to subt?
vanish or meld right?
potent pivot
except most actually competitive players agree with it
worthy crag
vanish is same as before right? 2 charges for sub
nothing has changed
sub has not magically gained more access to stealth
worthy crag
Okay, how are you going to gain access to "more" stealth
potent pivot
subterfuge being 6s now is quite literally more stealth ability access than it was more
i never said you got more windows
worthy crag
so what exactly does sub benefit from having 3 longer second of subterfuge?
I mean I would love for you to tell me
instead of telling me 17 times that im wrong
what exactly
does sub gain
from longer subt
2 more shadowstrikes if they dont feel like pressing dance I guess?
or if they are dumb enough to be disarmed for the first 4 seconds, so that theyll have 2 extra seconds to be idiot proof
potent pivot
whatever you say man
potent pivot
you're the one telling me i'm wrong
worthy crag
and like I said I couldnt give a damn cuz Im already playing more hunter lol
no, im simply asking how a longer subt is a benefit to sub
potent pivot
i said you were wrong about kidney nerf being so impactful, because it's not
worthy crag
like,, yeah they gain more access to shadowstrikes I guess?
3 sec offers just as many windows for cheapshot globals as 6 sec does
so the only difference is literally shadowstrikes
without dance or symbol modifiers
yes, you said that
potent pivot
whatever you say man
^
worthy crag
and then I refuted saying that 3 vs 6 sec subt is literally the same for sub
and you have not told me how they are different
I mean, do you just get randomly lassoed by a shaman
that you need those extra 3 seconds to get away from screwing up
are you gonna cast 6 cheapshots instead of 3
from having a 6 sec subt
potent pivot
worthy crag
not sure what those 6 cheap shots would do
potent pivot
this is objectively wrong
worthy crag
"more" access is different from "longer" access
potent pivot
i don't care to argue semantics over what is happening in a match
worthy crag
wdym, sub is literally the most scripted class in the game
semantics is literal life and death for sub
whens the last time you even arenaed as a sub
like SL season 1 when everyone was oneshotting with ER?
potent pivot
every season of DF besides s4
like i said
i'm not going to sit here and argue semantics with you
i do not care
worthy crag
you still havent told me how 6 seconds of subterfuge impacts any sort of gameplay thats not available on a 3 second of subterfuge
potent pivot
conversation is over
worthy crag
lmfao w.e
I guess i'll just take it at face value that something going up by 10 seconds in CD is not impactful
potent pivot
potent pivot
dooming is a verb, not an adjective
worthy crag
I thought you were making a point about semantics
worthy crag
I mean im still failing to understand how 6 sec subterfuge is any different from 3
so
maybe that just means im a 1200 rated rogue xd
I mean it is different for non sub specs
but for sub?
same shit
like, do you not get enough time to cross cc during 3 sec subterfuge?
is 3 sec not enough?
do you need 6?
Just failing to understand, is all
And in order to gain access to said 6 sec subterfuge you still need meld/vanish and vanish is still 2 charges for sub... so...
huh, I guess sub hasn't really gained more access to stealth
just some randomly 3 second longer subterfuge
oof, i'm "doooooooming"
stoic spruce
Reading this gave me heartburn
worthy crag
cant rly speak for outlaw or sin xD
tired crypt
stoic spruce
Stealthi
indigo hill
Lasting 3 seconds longer is very important - My wife.
stoic spruce
3 seconds is a very long time
indigo hill
She's asking to much honestly.
stoic spruce
The difference between life or death...
Satisfaction or disappointment
Etc
Both apples of the same tree
worthy crag
Gonna be even easier to set up weakauras to counter sub now
"the rogue has vanished, put down war banner or bladestorm"
worthy crag
spoken as an outlaw
stoic spruce
Yeah I don't grapple away. I simply have feint at 100% uptime
worthy crag
nah ill just be spamming arena1/2/3 scatter shot on my hunter for that idiot sub rogue who vanished to get a cheap shot cuz his kidney is still on cd xd
vanished to get a cheap off and then get full scattered
potent pivot
<:nomf:1265353614671613962>
worthy crag
he gon be spending that suberfuge in full scatter into tar trap
tired crypt
<:pain:839526276904779847>
stoic spruce
indigo hill
Yeah I don't grapple away. I simply have feint at 100% uptime
You running the 20% reduction talent?
potent pivot
I don't think I talented into cheat death once this expansion actually
a lot more people have been taking cheat over elu lately
i do think elu is really good for outlaw, but even most outlaw players have been taking cheat now i think
wanton breach
well you can get oneshot in a 2s random ass stun without enemies having active cooldowns
potent pivot
naw i mean even before prepatch
wanton breach
same
potent pivot
it's just more valuable to take cheat a lot of the time
with feint you have to pre feint a stun etc for 20% DR
with cheat you just live instead of dying (unless you die through)
stoic spruce
I will say
Fighting against another outlaw rogue is great
Because outlaw rogues in the wild are rather bad.
potent pivot
stoic spruce
Dude
Dks are just as bad
For every good dk there's like 15 bad ones
2400 and you're amzing air
potent pivot
i think you can say that about every class
stoic spruce
For sure but it's more noticeable on some classes
I still remember when I sent a gouge and a dk put an amz on the other side of a pillar where none of his teammates were
Like
Brother
I'm just stopping casts while I wait for my teammates CDs to come back lol
Hakuna your tatas
stoic spruce
It's funnier to think he's that bad
We lost anyway because the warrior funneled and went behind a pillar and los'd the healer.
Typical warr stuff yk
How's hpal looking in TWW
potent pivot
i've heard good and bad, but i think it's looking fine
so far the only healer i know of that's looking iffy is mw
potent pivot
it does look fun on beta
stoic spruce
But I'm not 
potent pivot
venruki's been having a blast testing hpal on beta afaik
stoic spruce
Very nice
indigo hill
We lost anyway because the warrior funneled and went behind a pillar and los'd t...
You can write endless supplies of books about the amount times a warrior does that.😂
stoic spruce
Lol one apoc and 2 death coils later and bro was DEAD
chrome schooner
nah ill just be spamming arena1/2/3 scatter shot on my hunter for that idiot sub...
because you couldn't do that when the stun he used on your allies was Kidney Shot maybe ?
scattering a rogue only works if he uses vanish cheap but not kidney ?
sick wasp
do you need 6?
i mean is it that bad to have 6 secs tapped into ur stealth bar?
micro cc exists and its spammable,those 3 seconds we used to have would disappear by some random micro cc that would be enough to just ruin an entire setup
its pretty obvious that it should be welcome to have as much time as possible into subter
6 is more than welcome if u ask me
stoic spruce
Can you gouge blind sap? I've been meaning to see ever since the CC changes.
sick wasp
Can you gouge blind sap? I've been meaning to see ever since the CC changes.
im mostly worried about KS cd now tbh
not that it should matter alot but now triple cheap all the way..
sick wasp
now that uve mentioned im gonna que some shuffles later today on my rogue
was planning to do on my mage and hpally anyway
btw hpally
🍆
stoic spruce
I do enjoy eggplants
stoic spruce
I never cooked with them because I keep frying or baking them lol
Same with squash.
sick wasp
bro
stoic spruce
Of any variety
sick wasp
u are missing rly good stuff
stoic spruce
Oh 100% I am but I have 0 self control
sick wasp
u can like order some
stoic spruce
Where I live it's all soul food and mexican
sick wasp
stoic spruce
I just have to be strong at least once
sick wasp
i do enjoy some good mexican food
just not the spicy stuff
there are some good burritos and enchiladas
stoic spruce
I love spicy food. I developed a kick for hot sauce during covid and now I need to put it on almost everything.
I want to bring a tiny bottle into restaurants but I'm scared that's rude
And
They never carry what I like
sick wasp
They never carry what I like
This is ''stuffed eggplant with cheese and minced meat and some veggies'' called ''Papoutsakia''=literally means shoes in greek coz they look like shoes,its a greek eggplant recipe
sick wasp
There is also the famous ''Mousakas'' which is eggplant with minced meet,besamel and cheese in the over
hold on
This takes a legit 9 in flavor
stoic spruce
That looks like lasagna but if it were good
sick wasp
This is twice as tasty as lasagna if u ask me
this has no pasta at all
nor tomato sauce
stoic spruce
Amazing
sick wasp
But man do I hate eggplant
i knew that btw as a fellow malakas could smell u from several kilometers away 😉
surreal barn
Malakas!
sick wasp
😂
surreal barn
My man ✊🏼
spring bough
finally got exalted with this army of the light for this lightforge mount. oh the crap i find to do off season lol
ty legion timewalk rep items lol
lime oar
I love opening pvp channel expecting the usual
But I’m delightfully surprised by photos of stuffed eggplants
vocal surge
This is ''stuffed eggplant with cheese and minced meat and some veggies'' called...
What's the recipe?
sick wasp
What's the recipe?
there are many variations with stuffing etc but here is what im using https://www.argiro.gr/recipe/melitzanes-papoutsakia/#google_vignette
goog;e translate it plz,im in beta
key about to start
sick wasp
there are much simplier ways to make those and equally tasty
this is more on the gourmet side
just fyi
vocal surge
Makes sense
surreal barn
there are many variations with stuffing etc but here is what im using https://ww...
It looks good. If imma spend the time to make anything greek either γεμιστά or lamb 🇬🇷
Tell the grandmothers theirs is better to have them make the harder stuff
sick wasp
Tell the grandmothers theirs is better to have them make the harder stuff
gladiator lvl gemista
worthy crag
because you couldn't do that when the stun he used on your allies was Kidney Sho...
just scattering after a kidney vs vanish cheap? Its a pretty obvious difference
Or dance cheap. Either way you can see how its different
worthy crag
i mean is it that bad to have 6 secs tapped into ur stealth bar?
Im not saying getting 3 extra secs of subt is bad, Im saying that its stupid to argue it is "more access" to stealth when the means of gaining subterfuge hasnt increased.
sick wasp
Im not saying getting 3 extra secs of subt is bad, Im saying that its stupid to ...
idk how as sub that even translates to anything u pretty much tap on that at will
worthy crag
I mean the whole discussion was stemmed from how kidney shot going from 20 to 30 sec cd didnt matter because subterfuge is now 6 seconds
Which makes 0 sense
sick wasp
everything is connected if u wanna cross cc
worthy crag
If blizz increases vanish cd from 2 to 3 minutes but instead made subterfuge last 20 seconds, is it a good compensation? rofl
sick wasp
so both matter
worthy crag
3 sec or 20 sec subt is still one dr window
sick wasp
its not that simple it depends
coz ks drs can fall off into subter
everything counts
sick wasp
it means u can stun
into subter
cs
and cross ks
into subter
and sap into subter
wdym what i mean
sick wasp
u dont have to sap the target u cs with stopatk or anything
can be 3 diff targets
u dont need a sequence of keys
just common reasoning
everything counts
if it didnt count there wouldnt be a nerf in the first place
chrome schooner
Speaking with a wall is always an entertaining moment
chrome schooner
Are you just not gonna press dance just cuz you have a 6 sec subt?
You can press it later, gain time
It is always valuable
worthy crag
Why?
Your stun window hasnt changed at all
Like
Just take a 5+2+1 as a common stun window example
are you just gonna be spending 3 out of those 8 seconds (assuming you used the first 3 on cross ccing) in danceless subterfuge?
And do 0 dmg?
worthy crag
Speaking with a wall is always an entertaining moment
Im the one spelling out everything. If you dont see the difference idk what to call you
sick wasp
are you just gonna be spending 3 out of those 8 seconds (assuming you used the f...
.. loss/position/bleed them?set up?Bomb your mage/healer?
there are so many factors its not even funny to discuss my man
sick wasp
worthy crag
Like lmfao
chrome schooner
You aren't forced to open with a stun on a kill target always
Lets say you play rmp, and you sap or whatever else mid game fear poly kill target for setup
worthy crag
Like I get some people are dumb and Im probably talking to 1700s but holy fk
chrome schooner
You want your dance to do damage on said kill target
6s Subterfuge gives you more time to cross CC the enemy team before the go
Lets you remove a shroud from evoker + CC
Lets you catch people standing very far away
Lets you tank an unfortunate incap or shockwave or w.e like that scatter you spoke of
Etc
worthy crag
Isnt kidney and vanishing just a better version of being disruptive?
Than vanishing and csing?
This is what Im failing to understand like
you kidney heals w.e to begin setup
Vanish to avoid grapple or grip w.e
and cheap the rest
You just vanish to gain subt now, gj
First cheap and the vanish factor is gone
sick wasp
wtf
worthy crag
But now literally you "have to"?
plucky escarp
Like I get some people are dumb and Im probably talking to 1700s but holy fk
Just wait until he check-PvP ‘s shadenox
worthy crag
Because setting up stuns on dr reset now requires you to vanish
chrome schooner
The difference is, now, the moments you'd vanish before, NOW you have 3 more globals to stun off targets, remove shrouds, garrote people if assa etc
worthy crag
Btw ive been purely saying this as sub. I already said subt 6 sec is huge for sin and outlaw
Sub doesnt give a shit about 6 or 12 sec subt
chrome schooner
Because setting up stuns on dr reset now requires you to vanish
If you go for the same target with CC on the rest, no it doesn't, because the rest of the spells of your team needs to be ready too
worthy crag
I mean, u using rmx as an example is just funny
What sort of a delusional rmp cant just cross setup as is with 3 sec subt
Like are they just incapable of yelling 3 2 1 db chastize
chrome schooner
Idk at what rating you usually play at but people who are aware of when an RMP go is going to happen usually try to stop it
Db isn't ready every dr
Chastise isn't ready every dr
And that's why sometimes the Rogue sets his team up by stunning everybody
worthy crag
Which, in this case of having kidney still on cd, would require getting that access by vanish or meld or hard reset
chrome schooner
This isn't Shadowlands
chrome schooner
3s of stealth isn't a guaranteed to stun everyone
chrome schooner
People could be far away
You could get hit by a CC between the 1st and the 2nd target
Etc
With 3s any CC is the end of subt
worthy crag
Yes use double wizard playing 40 yrd triangle on tolviron
chrome schooner
With 6s subt is still up after most cc
worthy crag
Then it becomes a matter of shadowsteps
cuz eztra 3 seconds wont do shit also in that case
chrome schooner
As I said, arguing with a wall
unborn relic
Bruh
chrome schooner
Thr guy himself brought scattering the rogue
And now can't understand that a 6s subt is still up after scatter ends
Unbelievable
worthy crag
Didnt I specifically say tar off the scatter
chrome schooner
Have fun being an idiot with others people, I'm off 😉
worthy crag
seems like a fair trade for sub who has to vanish
So is it like a new thing that a channel just resorts to namecalling and dot spamming and pepe posting when they cant respond right or what
surreal barn
worthy crag
or just failing to comprehend that in order to gain subterfuge you will have to press vanish which hasn't changed at all the past 2 years
surreal barn
You can meld
surreal barn
No
worthy crag
Oh okay, so where's this "more" acess to stealth that Ive been called an idiot for disputing?
surreal barn
I think it’s actually the same access to stealth as assa if you count up the seconds with the new 2/2 sub
Much more for sub
Convenient? Eh idk
worthy crag
Idk, for some people maybe theyve been spending too much time on wow and not reading comprehension
gusty hedge
Idk, for some people maybe theyve been spending too much time on wow and not rea...
" So is it like a new thing that a channel just resorts to namecalling and dot spamming and pepe posting when they cant respond right or what "
worthy crag
Not really, its simple stuff
how is sub gaining more access to stealth
which arguably offsets kidney going from 20 to 30 sec
Or you have these idiots read parts of what I said and bring up garroting when I have not said a thing about outlaw or sin
surreal barn
Just have to be more careful. As for you padawan, no good rogue is going to attack you from the front your scatter won’t be going off anyway
worthy crag
o shit, get the drumrolls
potent pivot
longer duration literally means MORE
you have been told the same thing by multiple people now, and you incessantly keep pushing the issue for no reason
it's getting really weird dude
drop it
worthy crag
Ah
so you just
fail to see how longer vs more are
different
okay
I mean if you are just intellectually incapable I cannot help that
Lets say, subterfuge is hypothetically at 3 seconds
and vanish has two charges
surreal barn
Ttyl
worthy crag
3 sec subt + 2 vanish = 6 seconds of "stealth" time
now take another hypothetical case in which vanish is 1 charge and subterfuge is 6 seconds
6 sec subt + 1 vanish = 6 seconds of "stealth" time
same length duration
less access to stealth
yeah, incomprehensible I know
what the fuck is this IQ
surreal barn
Who hurt you
sick wasp
a rogue obviously
surreal barn
Did the woman pack her bags this morning
worthy crag
Noone, sometimes Im just flabbergasted at how I have to dissect it to the simplest parts before I feed it to some people
sick wasp
bro hunter pov rogue kit
jolly sierra
wtf the chat
sick wasp
wtf the chat
its been wild fam
worthy crag
Oh ur taking me as a hunter player just because I said I've been playing more hunter during the prepatch? LMAO
son
thats just cute
worthy crag
nah but for real tho
I guess the example I gave, people still fail to comprehend how they are different concepts
rofl
candid condor
👀
worthy crag
Probably better if people stop talking about the impact of a change on sub when they've been dampening their brain for the past season pressing fok and ct pveing as sin
tbh not even the same rogue players
silent sleet
probably best to just stop
candid condor
Stop typing faster, ronkles
silent sleet
This is the most pointless conversation
worthy crag
yeah im still trying to understand how getting longer subterfuge translates into accessing stealth more