pvp

[quaint cedar]

Yeah I hated doing the mythic+ for the crests. Was a pain. No one wants a rogue either so took forever to get a group together

[jolly sierra]

what are they giving now?

[surreal barn]

Father Metzen will be there

That is gift enough

[quaint cedar]

New expac hype

Hoping for seafaring expac

[surreal barn]

Hazzikostas and I are Greek together

Seems like I should go

[jolly sierra]

huh

sure go for it

last time ive bought a ticket was for the polar bear mount

lol

[surreal barn]

Boralis would be nice to return to tbh

That city was badass

[jolly sierra]

they said something about not having a sea xp for next one

when they did the pirate bundle in shop

[quaint cedar]

Yes! I love Boralis

They specifically said it wasn't a pirate expac

Could still be sea themed

Without being pirates

[surreal barn]

Although, I really thought we would have badass shoulder capes with good physics by now

I’d settle for that instead of seafaring xpac haha

[jolly sierra]

tbh would want a xp where u go to past

but azeroth past

[surreal barn]

I think that’s what made the OG Azeroth so great. You really had it all - ports and everything inbetween

[jolly sierra]

could match w infinite dragonflight messing up

[surreal barn]

A huge revamp would be great

[quaint cedar]

Yeah I would love to see an updated Azeroth

The original world is so cool and it's a shame we don't really use it

I even miss the old ways of traveling

Like using the boats instead of just portals

[surreal barn]

For that to work they need it to be busy. Having a pve and pvp mode toggle was really sad lol

[quaint cedar]

lol yeah

I used to be on Emerald Dream. We had lots of cool wpvp guilds and events and stuff. But warmode killed it all

I left a few years ago and transferred to Sargeras because ED was just dead

[surreal barn]

They need to make it worth turning PVP on after 70. Bring back Uber rare epic drops and maybe increase that rate if pvp mode on

Something - idk

[quaint cedar]

Would be nice

Pve players would probably complain though

[jolly sierra]

i wanna see alterac as a kingdom

[surreal barn]

My server Dark Iron died so long ago I transferred to tich bc it was one of two realms that were still populated

[quaint cedar]

Alterac valley BG revamp could be nice too. It's so shit now

[surreal barn]

It is bad man.

I don’t even want to finish my last few achieves there for battlemaster

[jolly sierra]

yeah, is not too different to timewalking version xdd

[quaint cedar]

lol

It's the most pve BG

Just run past the enemy team and cap towers and zerg final boss

How exciting

I'll even take Trashran over alterac at this point

[surreal barn]

The type of person that actually wants to queue AV doesn’t want a time limit or resources. They want to strategically win through proper defense and offense

Anyone that says otherwise wants a fast honor farm

[jolly sierra]

classic ashran was only good in wod tho

[minor cape]

my buddy says that at some point it was possible to vanish the moment touch of death pops and it wouldnt deal damage

does that still work

[stoic spruce]

That's interesting.

[jolly sierra]

dunno but we can test later tho

remember i have a full geared monk lol

[minor cape]

oh right

just entered wow after two months feels good

[jolly sierra]

OOF

nice

u didnt lose anything

dont worry

[minor cape]

i know lol

🤪

[waxen meteor]

tried to push sin rank today but went 10-10

then got tired and swapped to ret and went duelist...

[jolly sierra]

OOF

[jolly sierra]

need to do that too when season end is announced

[waxen meteor]

60 60 healer games that contributed 6-6

[jolly sierra]

show me ur talents if u went ret

[waxen meteor]

then got another almost 6-0 healer but i went 2-4 that goes for 8-10, then last lobby swept with 2 wins then evoker quit....

was feeling quite good today for sin

so many games were so close

[jolly sierra]

oh

its sad to say "quite good" and then "so close" for assa

damn

[waxen meteor]

if i paid attention like swap disarm out from 3 casters lobby, probably i could win 1-2 more rounds in that lobby alone

[jolly sierra]

oh

F

[waxen meteor]

😂 2 rounds ended with enemy less than 2% HP

but anyway

my own issues

[jolly sierra]

godt

that hurts

[low moon]

do that shit way to often

[spring bough]

i just discovered MM in arenas and omg this spec deletes people so fast lol

176k aimed shot crits ontop of rapid fires just going nutty lol

[jolly sierra]

yeah dude and then we got a guy which wants to have assa without sudden demise

as MM

[halcyon timber]

Dude is still talking trash about it too in the post.

[minor cape]

yeah but mm hunter itself gets deleted

if there is something that can catch him like sub, marksman just dies

[exotic dove]

He looks to be losing that battle

[twin burrow]

He's my girlfriend be nice

[wanton breach]

Do they? Feels like they aren't that squishy if played properly

[minor cape]

yeah and also depends on matchup

like wheelchairs get destroyed

but if you can catch mm hunter there aint much he can do

[twin burrow]

Mm hunters can shoot a lot of arrows before you get to them be careful

[surreal barn]

Let’s not get distracted by the real enemy here fellas

All warlocks and warriors are smokescreening us with this MM crap

[minor cape]

mm hunters also cant do that in a kidney shot

or in a turtle that they pressed in the first 20 seconds of the game lol

[quaint cedar]

The game is truly less fun when warlocks and warriors are strong

Neither of those classes can ever die

Warrior isn't even that great right now and I still hate fighting them

It's just really boring, especially in 2s

I wish that arms took a nerf to mobility and sustained damage and got huge buffs to burst

[vocal surge]

thats fair

the SL S3 takeover of Fury Warriors

[quaint cedar]

Right now arms is just this annoying mosquito that sits on you 100% of the time and can't ever die

[vocal surge]

or S2 with Warlocks just using drain life to heal to full fast

[quaint cedar]

Yeah. I was happy to see that fury warriors became viable because I want every spec to be good. But man that spec is toxic.

You have 0 fun playing against fury as a healer

[vocal surge]

The more classic I play as a warrior, the more boring retail wow is with class designs on warrior's side

[quaint cedar]

Yeah classic warrior is cool. You used to have to think about how to connect to people

[vocal surge]

even the rotation I use in Classic leveling a prot warrior is more complex than the one in Retail WoW

[quaint cedar]

Now you just press one of your infinite mobility buttons and never have to think

[vocal surge]

and by a long shot

Arms isnt even a master of all weapons

[quaint cedar]

That's sad honestly

[vocal surge]

they just pick up a 2h weapon and swing it hard

and in classic wow you can setup macros to swap stances and weapons

[quaint cedar]

Right. Arms feels so wrong from a gameplay and fantasy perspective

[vocal surge]

Prot Warrior gameplay is stale af

just keep bleeds up then spam revenge

for comparison

this is what my warrior's rotation looks like in classic

Charge - AutoAttack - Demoralizing Shout - AutoAttack - Rend - Defensive Stance - Auto Attack x2 - Shield Block - Battle Stance - Heroic Strike

[quaint cedar]

Guy in heavy plate armor that uses a huge 2 handed weapon.

What you expect: low mobility yet high burst battle tactician

What you get: most mobile melee with piss burst, all zug

[vocal surge]

vs retail arms looking something like this

Charge- Mortal Strike - Overpower - Overpower - Mortal Strike - Overpower - Overpower - Mortal Strike

[quaint cedar]

See I might actually play warrior if it was like what you're describing in classic

Current arms is just ZZZZZZ

[vocal surge]

and mind ya

my classic rotation is only 1 variation

of many

and its because of the many if conditions

[quaint cedar]

Arms is also kind of a slot machine right now. They can sit on you and do no damage, or you can suddenly die to a huge crit out of nowhere. Feels like ass

[surreal barn]

This would make it so much more fun for warriors too

[vocal surge]

and knowing how much rage I generate with each attack I can plan ahead what my next move is before it happens

[quaint cedar]

I was playing rdruid in 2s yesterday and my lock died from 30% HP from a 195k mortal strike crit. He got lucky there, but aside from the crit we were chilling the whole game. It's terrible design

And doesn’t fit the warrior fantasy at all

[vocal surge]

yeah

I enjoy stance dancing a lot

but retail wow doesnt encourage stance dancing at all

and all abilities work the same regardless of stance

instead of like classic wow warriors

having 2 interrupts for different stances

[quaint cedar]

Stance dancing was cool and made warrior more skillful

[vocal surge]

1 has a shorter cd than the other with both having different interrupt durations

you had Shield Bash for Battle Stance and Defensive stance requiring a shield to be used for the ability

and you had pummel for berserker stance with no requirements

[quaint cedar]

I have the same problem with druid to a certain degree honestly. I used to main feral back when they used both bear and cat form. Ever since they turned guardian into its own spec feral has barely felt like a shapeshifter. You just do everything in cat form.

[vocal surge]

Shield Bash lasted 6 seconds for a 12s CD while Pummel is 4s for a 10s CD

[quaint cedar]

You turn into bear and have like 2 buttons you can press

You used to pick either cat or bear depending on the situation, and would switch between the forms depending on what you were fighting

[surreal barn]

Does leaning on macros for smooth gameplay scream bad game design? Stance dancing had so many

[vocal surge]

Nope

[quaint cedar]

That is true. Stance dancing was awkward in that way

[vocal surge]

I dont see having macros a bad thing

[quaint cedar]

Maybe not necessarily bad though

[vocal surge]

I just find it better to incentivize players to use it as a tool since its built into the game

[surreal barn]

Not like every macro but shield reflect should have just put you in defensive and equipped a shield

[vocal surge]

than not

[quaint cedar]

Sure beats the 3 button rotation arms has now

[vocal surge]

or barely any at all like in retail

I have so little macros in retail wow I just use em for customizing my spell icons instead

outside of the CC macros

compare to classic wow

with the tear of elune macro

theres some warriors that use macros to equip a shield and a 1h weapon for emergencies

[quaint cedar]

I generally don't use a ton of macros on any spec in retail

My outlaw has a decent amount though

[vocal surge]

stance dance macros for certain buttons like Retaliation

[quaint cedar]

Cancel blade flurry, cancel spree, focus macros for CC, sap macros, stuff like that

[vocal surge]

aye

[quaint cedar]

Even my druid doesn't have many. Just NS + regrowth macro, cat -> skull bash macro, and some help/harm for damage spells vs healing spells. That's pretty much it

[vocal surge]

I used to have about 2 macros

when it came to pve

which is just tying buttons together for abilities like Adrenaline Rush

[quaint cedar]

Yeah I've found in pvp that there's situations where I'd use something separately so I don't macro my CDs together much

10.2 will definitely add some macros for my outlaw though

[vocal surge]

yeee

[quaint cedar]

Going to make a macro for dispatch/bte. Cast dispatch when out of stealth stance, cast bte when in stealth stance. That way you can't accidentally put bte on CD after a stealth window ends

Probably throw ghostly strike in there too since it's off GCD now

[vocal surge]

aye

[quaint cedar]

I can't get over how fun crackshot is

I'm so happy we're getting more pistol based talents

I always felt like the pistol was a bit underutilized

And underwhelming for damage

I'm shooting someone point blank with a flintlock, why does it do no damage? lol

[surreal barn]

Every skill I press has a !stealth at the start 😂 I go into stealth accidentally so often

[quaint cedar]

lol guess that's not a bad idea. Always get a restealth whenever you possibly could

[acoustic junco]

#showtooltip
/cast [stance:0] Dispatch
/cast [stance:1] Between the eyes
/cast [stance:2] Between the eyes
/cast ghostly strike

[quaint cedar]

I know stance 0 would be no stealth, but what's the difference between stance 1 vs 2?

[acoustic junco]

subterfuge and dance

[quaint cedar]

Ah didn't realize they were different in macros. Thanks

[acoustic junco]

sorry stealth/subterfuge = 1 , dance =2

[surreal barn]

This work with assa and ambush too?

[acoustic junco]

you don't want it for ass, it won't work with that one proc

[surreal barn]

Lame

[quaint cedar]

Probably same deal as the audacity procs for outlaw. You need a separate button

[acoustic junco]

things like audacity, blindside don't give stealth

[quaint cedar]

Macros can't tell when you have a proc or not

[acoustic junco]

it's not optimal play because you can BTE sometimes between stealth windows. It'll prevent you from being dumb though

[quaint cedar]

I figured I'll just keep my normal bte button and replace my dispatch with the macro. I'll only ever want to use dispatch when I'm not in a stealth window anyways.

That way I can still bte out of stealth if needed

[acoustic junco]

I personally don't think crackshot is going to be good in PVP if mastery still ends up being good.

but who am i kidding, mastery losing stonks

[quaint cedar]

I can't see that being the case. Crackshot seemed really strong for burst during my testing

And the improved bte talent gives us a good incentive to run crit again

We only ran mastery because all the other stats suck

Mastery by itself is very meh

But I'm just guessing. We'll know more as we get closer to patch release I'm sure

[surreal barn]

Hope it doesn’t get nerfed too bad lol. I’ll be playing outlaw/assa next season. Sub with the ShT tracking added to the perforated veins tracking is ZERO fun for me.

[quaint cedar]

If we get a repeat of S1 where outlaw felt completely fine and then got nerfed into the ground because of pve garbage I'm legit going to just quit

I'm not putting up with that bullshit again

What's the ShT tracking btw? I don't play sub so not sure what that refers to

[tepid quiver]

any tip for not cancelling Gouge? im noob into Rogue. best stuff i find is just trying to be far as possible os my char doesn't autoattack but other than that... do you guys have a macro for stopattack?

[potent pivot]

#showtooltip Gouge
/cast Gouge
/stopattack

You just add a stopattack line to it

[tepid quiver]

and to attack again you just need to press a random button that deals damage and your back into autoattack?

or to make autoattack you need to press click into him

[whole tinsel]

any damaging ability will resume your AA

[tepid quiver]

then that macro should work NICE

thanks 🙂

[whole tinsel]

Alternatively you can use gouge with focus and you wont break it, since its likely on an off target if your concerned about breaking it

[jolly sierra]

bring the [Slayer of the Lifeless]

[surreal barn]

Autoattacks will lock in a shadow technique stack (max of 10 or 12) that get added to a builder that you use when it will give you a full combo bar (5-7). Sounds fine and probably is for pve, but what sub in pvp do you know that sits and tries to accumulate autoattacks lol. You just die. The perforated veins is cool in theory but you have to track every 5th gloom, after that your next builder deals more damage. Those bgs we did a while back it had me feeling bad to gouge, shiv, etc bc I was already sitting at 5 glooms sometimes

[quaint cedar]

Oh that does sound awkward. I can understand not wanting to play that.

[surreal barn]

Yeah, in shuffle I am bouncing between targets gouging someone instead of stunning to avoid DRs for the blind sap, adding the inability for changing up my plan will inevitably screw me 😂

But I played outlaw and assa and I wouldn’t mind trying to git gud at those

[quaint cedar]

Have you tried outlaw on ptr yet? The new changes are really fun

idk about assa, that spec just isn't for me. Doesn't appeal to me really.

[surreal barn]

Yeah it felt a little too good

I’m suspicious

[quaint cedar]

Too good?

[surreal barn]

Like doesn’t have a weakness other than warrior good lol

[quaint cedar]

Still punished heavily by uptime

And the burst with crackshot is good but easily interruptable

One disarm and you're screwed

[surreal barn]

It has the damage, the scrapping ability, cc, and the mobility

[quaint cedar]

Yeah it feels quite good on the ptr. I hope it doesn't get destroyed by nerfs like in DF S1. Outlaw has been bad for most of DF, we should have a time to shine at some point right?

Even so, it really doesn't feel OP to me on ptr. If you fight people with S3 pvp gear the damage drops off hard

Also it still has a glaring weakness of being scewed over bad by plate

Now that FW is gone

[surreal barn]

This is true, I feel like they rotate fotm every couple of weeks

Only reason sub was at the tier it was is bc you could play with those FOTM, do noodle damage 90% of the match and cc properly.

[quaint cedar]

Yeah I mean, imagine we get this "rework" and outlaw ends up being bad. After rets, mages and hpals being busted after reworks, and augs getting added - that would be a HUGE slap in the face honestly

[tepid quiver]

any of you has a good profile for Gladiatorlossa?? imnot using it but id like to hear stuff like Trinket and big offensive cds from every class, couldnt find public profiles , ty in advance

[surreal barn]

It would but we are the most hated class by many

[quaint cedar]

Sub also benefited heavily from the absurd mastery stacking you can do this season

[surreal barn]

Yeah crafteds won’t be viable next patch

[quaint cedar]

But yeah mostly was just playing with some OP wizard and being a stun bot

Well, we're still not sure how crafteds will work with the pvp ilvl tokens

We know that pve ilvls will be lower than max, but we don't know if the same will happen with the pvp ilvls

[surreal barn]

True

I feel like they should scrap that tbh. Adds a huge layer to balance tune around

[quaint cedar]

True, though I do like the extra gear customization

[surreal barn]

I like seeing the stats I like but what’s it matter if they will just nerf my killer moves

[quaint cedar]

Honestly, I think stats need another look across the board

Some specs get way more benefit out of secondaries than others

So at the start of the expansion, those classes are weak, then later they become disgustingly OP

[halcyon timber]

They aint changing anything as long as the pve kids are happy

[quaint cedar]

Look at all the wizards this season with 9 billion haste

[surreal barn]

At least kick juke haste is gone

Holy shit that was insane

[halcyon timber]

Shadowtechniques is great. I hear what you’re saying though Z.

Still 20000x better than trash ass live

[quaint cedar]

This was made even worse by the crit nerf, because some specs fell off hard when their one good secondary stat was nuked (outlaw, arms for example)

lmao right

getting a mini PI every juke was a bit much

[halcyon timber]

Rogues are hurt by the 25%

Just stupid ass Secret technique nonsense and extreme mastery stacking took over

[surreal barn]

Sec tec even more important than now lol

[quaint cedar]

On ptr? Did the recent buff really make that big of a difference?

[surreal barn]

Now sectec fills your next combo bar for the next finisher

[quaint cedar]

lol why

[surreal barn]

The set pc lol

[halcyon timber]

The 4 set yes

Its any finisher

[quaint cedar]

Still think it's funny that sub had shadow blades turned into an even better version of dreadblades, and then instead of making dreadblades better we just deleted it lmao

[halcyon timber]

Its a 30% chance

And you’re losing a lot of stats to use rhe 4 set

So its a trade

Shadowblades was a trash ass cd before 10.2

We were also told in df beta it was getting improved or removed

[quaint cedar]

Yeah I have no issue with sub getting a better shadow blades. It was pretty bad. But it's just odd that it basically got turned into way better Dreadblades without the HP drawback and then Dreadblades was just removed randomly

Really feels like sub is the hero spec of rogue sometimes

[surreal barn]

For sectec it is double

And they changed to be instant

[halcyon timber]

Doesn’t make sense

[surreal barn]

Two clones

They count them both in that and it is 100%

[halcyon timber]

% per finisher to gen cb pts, set gen cb pts per clone summoned

[quaint cedar]

So sec tec is double dipping on the 4 set? Wonder if that's a bug

[halcyon timber]

Its 2 pts per clone

[quaint cedar]

Or if its intended

[surreal barn]

It isn’t realz brought that up in the ptr chat

[halcyon timber]

Yeah because gotta make the pvers happy

[quaint cedar]

Not intended then?

[halcyon timber]

Either way, we are still behind assassination according to the kids upstairs

Its intended

[surreal barn]

Ya so you sectec and don’t need to wait on a proc it will be 4 pts and then you use any builder for the rest

[halcyon timber]

Yeah

[quaint cedar]

Oh gotcha

[halcyon timber]

Which is whatever and i could care less

ST is just dfa in a diff way

[surreal barn]

Care Eridian you must care

lol

[halcyon timber]

More stuff they put in that we get balanced around to need and the rest of the kit gets robbed and nerfed

Nerf scale warden or whatever its going to be in s3 and nerd crafted gear . Avoid the silly stacking crap

[surreal barn]

That assa smart target garrote change though

That’s badass. Need more of that 😂

Wonder if they could do that for replicating shadows

[halcyon timber]

Yeah i dig rupture with replicating shadows and such . Not sure what the pve kids are on about when it already will skip a target affected by rupture

Yeah thats the plan

It just currently hits whoever doesnt have rupture and isn’t an issue. Just pve kids making problems that arent there stressing out the dev team

[surreal barn]

Whenever I am in bgs I see overlap, it is usually a distance thing

[halcyon timber]

Yeh its by distance

Proximity based stuff

“This enemy is closer so tag him” which is cool

Not a big deal

[potent pivot]

Didn’t they revert the combo points on blades

Or am I trippin

[surreal barn]

Trippin amigo

Gonna check lil later tho

[halcyon timber]

Its full pts

Old blades was trash

[potent pivot]

Must’ve misread the changelog thing

[surreal barn]

Between shadowblades, shadowcraft, and shadowtechniques I don’t blame you

[languid ravine]

sometimes lucky and you get the only piece you need

[spring bough]

did you join the hunter darkside too?

got my hunter to rival with BM lol. trying to do MM now. but god damn to people train you. i gotta learn to kite better lol

[twin burrow]

Arrow of darkness

[spring bough]

played 30 rounds as MM and already 1600 this is too ez lol

[quaint cedar]

That's funny, I was thinking of trying MM too

[spring bough]

i just hit a 200k sniper shot with back to back aimeds off the start of the match and dps dead lol

think i topped at like 120-130k dps

[quaint cedar]

Yeah then you play outlaw and you have to perform 5D chess and still not kill anything lol

[spring bough]

yeah i press buttons harder on outlaw and people still at 80%

[quaint cedar]

I need ptr crackshot and KS so bad

[spring bough]

here im like deeedeeeedeeee let me take 10 second break to CC then get back to DPS

[quaint cedar]

That's why I wanted to try MM, see what it's like to have a burst that actually does something

[spring bough]

also outside of dragonstalker for a mog i think this s2 hunter armor the best theyve done lol

blue and green is awesome looking

[quaint cedar]

I did always want to like hunter, just could never get into it before

[spring bough]

tbh i think i like BM more still idk why i just like that the pets do all the dmg lol

[quaint cedar]

I want to play MM because I like guns and don't want to play a zoo spec which just leaves MM as the only option

But I couldn't get into MM before because it was missing like half the utility of the other hunter specs

Now that it has more stuff I might finally like it

Yeah I'm the opposite lol. I don't want my pets doing all the damage

I just wanna blast

[spring bough]

bm just gotta spam the one keybind MM gotta get the setup going lol

but everything does like 100k about or more which is crazy lol

[quaint cedar]

I wish outlaw did that kind of damage

I love my spec so much but it's hard to not get frustrated sometimes

When everyone else has this amazing burst and you have nothing

And they only put in a fraction of the effort too

It's looking good so far on the ptr but I'm worried we're going to get slammed with pve nerfs again and go straight back into the dumpster like in S1

[proven mica]

it's a tradeoff, we have too much control to do that much damage. if you're willing to trade control for more damage, you could always play Fury Warrior

[waxen meteor]

I did both BM and MM haha

[spring bough]

one thing i found with MM is i have so many buttons i maxed out my keybinds and had to make a couple more lol

[surreal barn]

There’s a gnome sequencer MM pvp macro

I was going to try 😂

[waxen meteor]

Well tbh you don’t need a sequencer

[spring bough]

what is that lol

[surreal barn]

One button to win

[spring bough]

just goes thru all the abilities?

lmao

[waxen meteor]

You don’t really use many skills although you do have a lot

[surreal barn]

👍🏼

It’s not about that lol, it’s about using an Xbox controller from the couch and killing people

Literally the opposite of rogue gameplay

[spring bough]

bro is just lounging spamming A lol

[surreal barn]

I used it to level a fury warrior a while back and it was pretty funny. It know to pop cds as soon as they were back up etc

[spring bough]

does it work with hekili?

that would be sick if it did lol

[surreal barn]

What’s that

[waxen meteor]

Yeah I heard about the one key thing too lol

[spring bough]

hekili runs off a sim or something and calculates the best ability to use next for max dps

[surreal barn]

Interesting

[spring bough]

and shows what the next few would be after that too

it also lights up your spell on your keys for what to press lol

[surreal barn]

No idea. Id probably make arrows on the controller arena target selection a trigger disengage and a top trigger turtle

All traps would have to be @player macros

[waxen meteor]

So it looks like we are 5-6 weeks away from season ends

[proven mica]

seems likely, but that's not a blue post it's just some rando wowhead writer speculating

[jolly sierra]

till i don't get a formal announcement i will still farming MMR

[jolly sierra]

wowhead is rumoring the next XP thematic

according to them will be titan related

[stoic spruce]

uggghhhhhhhh

[halcyon timber]

Wouldn’t say titan only. It could be void with all the hints and the dwarves were the first to obtain the “curse of flesh” from the old gods after all.

Would be a heck of a time for medhiv to finally come back as well. He physically showed up in legion.

[long shore]

any recommended specs for pushing rogue to 2400 in solo shuffle?

[stoic spruce]

Sub

[long shore]

ty, the rotten build right? or the dark brew + thistle tea version?

[waxen meteor]

Mostly rotten

[twin burrow]

anyone have the current sub ptr build

[halcyon timber]

Can literally play any of the builds, they are all very close in damage with each other. Realz did a great job of that and his team.

Just pick and choose what you dig.

[surreal barn]

I’d go dark brew build if you wanna do any dam outside of shadowblades. Pick up thieves bargain

[inner tartan]

i ran a leveling skimish to 100 percenet damperning

i troll wayyy to much

[surreal barn]

I think I just found my 2s partner

[stoic spruce]

Of course a sub player would look for more scum teammates

[inner tartan]

LMAOOOOOO

my level 70 rogue stat set is fucked but sure i pvp for fun thou not competively

[worldly girder]

do we bother with 3rd cheap during our secret tech go?

dance seems to run out before i can do it

although im prolly fucking my globals up

[spring bough]

Did blizz ever say if they’d award partial conquest for wins when people leave early? Two back to back solos. Gained rating but 0 conq lmao

[twin burrow]

Too small of an issue to matter

[topaz delta]

recently hit 70 on my sub rogue so I'm limited on sparks. What 2 items should I craft first and which embelishments should I get on them?

[pale storm]

You get sparks pretty quickly on fresh characters 🙂 first 2 I would suggest spore cloak and infurious boots

[topaz delta]

tyty!

[waxen meteor]

i think if you do a random raid you got like 8 sparks alone

[topaz delta]

nooo shit?

even LFR?

I still wont have the Trophy of Conquests though

[pale storm]

Yeah, the conquest takes longer to farm for sure

[jolly sierra]

if u do daily

a skirmish, an epic bg, a regular one, LFR wings and a HC dungeon u get enough sparks for an arsenal

lol

[waxen meteor]

Yeah LFR

Sparks are easy to catch up.

[spring bough]

getting the KB on pikawar with the killshot feels good lol

[twin burrow]

I lost to supaboo and haven't recovered. Made me 2-4 on his outlaw

[twin burrow]

anyone got a nice ptr build

[surreal barn]

Cheap Shot, Gouge, Blind, Vanish. It sounds like you don’t quite understand what it is we do here. If you want to Heroic Strike and play honorably be my guest.

[stoic spruce]

Lmaooo don't you have some rmp to play?

Mr. Oneshot gimmick + CC bot.

[surreal barn]

That’s Dr. Oneshot gimmick to you

[stoic spruce]

Oops sorry 👉👈

[twin burrow]

Ziessy 🌶️

[undone badge]

ay so i play sub in pvp and was wondering if any tips?

[wanton breach]

pointy end towards the enemies

[jolly sierra]

dont drop ur hp to 0

[minor cape]

make sure enemy healer has a mental breakdown towards the middle of the round

[potent pivot]

quite a broad question, i would recommend checking out guides like on iceyveins or even youtube. maybe check out some streamers that play rogue as well.

if you've got any more specific questions feel free to ask them i'm sure someone will answer

if you're looking for more of a coaching you can DM me gameplay recordings and when i get time i can give you some feedback

[undone badge]

Ok! Ye i was thinkin abt rm

[proven kayak]

General tips are prioritise cc over sustain damage cus u don’t have sustain damage , set your cc drs near your burst cds so you can go for kill, utilise your spells to either peel or enable your friendly dps to do mongo dps without getting stopped

[undone badge]

Ok 👍🏻

[proven kayak]

Good luck is hard at start if you don’t give up and learn it gets fun and rewarding

[marsh bough]

Hello I'm new to Rogue and PvP in geneal. What spec is easyest for new players ?

[proven kayak]

Should be assassination

[languid ravine]

each spec is its own kind of easy/hard imo

honestly Outlaw might be easier, you press button, you see damage numbers

meanwhile assa you are pressing twice as many buttons while ramping and juggling your bleeds, buffs and debuffs onto all/most targets cleaving

[potent pivot]

The easier playstyle wise imo is assa

[languid ravine]

yea thats kinda what I nean, its like Macro/Micro things

[potent pivot]

As outlaw doing somewhat consistent dmg is easy, but as outlaw you should be CCing a fuck load

Assa is a bit slower paced and easier to learn things step by step ig

[languid ravine]

yeah maybe

[potent pivot]

Can just learn how to do good dmg in lower rating

Then as you climb start learning to cc more etc

But it’s kinda hard to quantify it personally, from people who’ve been playing these specs for a while already

[languid ravine]

yep I can make a case for each spec which is a good thing

like Sub, just oneshot that kid, easy right

heh

[potent pivot]

Like atm it’s prolly easiest to climb high with sub ye

But sub looks like the hardest one to learn to play well IMO

[languid ravine]

Ironically I ve become better at Sub while playing other specs

meanwhile whenever I play Sub I m just raging and learning bad habits

what do they say, it takes two to shadow dance

[spark egret]

@potent pivothow hard is it to get 1800

only wondering cause the elite set matches the TP weapons

(why did they not just match it to the class set)

[languid ravine]

its literally hold W and press bladestorm on cooldown

unless you play healer, its fucking impossible I cant even get 1700

(2.1cr +- on like 10 specs btw)

[potent pivot]

Pretty damn easy (imo)

Queue shuffle for a few hrs

[spark egret]

sub or law

[stoic spruce]

sub for sure

outlaw takes a lot more work than it should for the results you get

luckily thatll hopefully change in 10.2

[tepid quiver]

yeah tried outlaw yesterday binded buttons etc and holy shit you gotta spam keys and react to a lot of stuff + track debuffs/procs

[tight eagle]

What's BiS for Sub rogue offhand in PvP?

[languid ravine]

Claw with mastery

ilvl 450

[halcyon timber]

10.2 is the rise of the Outlaw for sure.

[languid ravine]

dont get TOO excited there is always the not even unlikely timeline where Outlaw becomes even harder to play and even less powerful in relation to other specs :^D

[jolly sierra]

ohhh a toilet cap as reward for 1k honor in emerald dream outdoor

[surreal barn]

looool

[tardy sequoia]

may I ask why not dagger? what makes non dagger better?

[languid ravine]

the mastery

[tardy sequoia]

so legit stats?

wild

[languid ravine]

weapon damage and procs is equalized anyways

[jolly sierra]

off hand is a stat stick most of time

i needed to craft a dagger for assa btw

[stoic spruce]

That find weakness was pretty important though so we'll have to see.

[halcyon timber]

Its a cool accenting piece from an artistic point of view.

[jolly sierra]

yeah it is, but still looks like a toilet cap

XD

[halcyon timber]

I honestly think tuning will happen where it isn’t needed per say. Apparently outlaw is dusting all rogues comparably from the kids upstairs discussions

[jolly sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/polish-toilet-gif-19649855

[halcyon timber]

Yeah that was pretty funny but it isn’t one xD. Its nice they threw in something that is going along with the fire druids and such though. Good for those who like it. We kill just to kill.

[jolly sierra]

the colors are good to match shit too

black with charred orange

[halcyon timber]

The first transmog, colorized 1954

[jolly sierra]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFfkMcCl4bE

[stoic spruce]

Sure but into plate dmg falls off on ptr. Realz said he wants to wait until live to see what to do which I GUESS is fair.

[jolly sierra]

the 1st one was a circus outfit xmog for TBC tho

[halcyon timber]

Yep id trust the main man. He’s doing a dang good job as is. Simultaneously FW is 9% increased damage ( actual math) Tuning your damage by that amount in different ways is better.

[stoic spruce]

I'll just say he's doing an okay job imo.

Since my favorite gameplay loop is gone

[halcyon timber]

Lol i just breathed heavily out of my nose. I remember walking around before pandaria. I am so very thankful for transmogging.

[jolly sierra]

yeah glad they added xmog to game

[halcyon timber]

What loop would that be? I know zero about outlaw.

[jolly sierra]

so we dont need to look like clowns anymore

lol

[halcyon timber]

Yeah we did look goofy back in the day

[jolly sierra]

armors were way too different in appearance when u wanted to be optimal tho

[halcyon timber]

Transmog forever, f the rest

Pandaria was great for that

[stoic spruce]

The dreadblades crackshot greenskin windows

There's probably like, 3 people that played it.

Everyone else plays hidden opportunity

I guess it just be like that sometimes

[halcyon timber]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/e/e7/Goku_DBZ_Ep_31_008.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1200?cb=20170828193815

Did it feel like this ?

Yeah that stinks, plenty of times where stuff I like got scuffed up. Just how it goes I guess.

The squeaky wheel gets oiled as the saying goes

[stoic spruce]

https://tenor.com/view/rambo-sylvester-stallone-suns-out-guns-out-ready-aim-fire-machine-gun-gif-5120447

Closer to this lol

[halcyon timber]

Ol john rambo yeh boy

[long shore]

How come most top rogues in solo shuffle are playing gloomblade build instead of secret technique?

[languid ravine]

do most top rogues play gloomblade "instead" of Secret technique?

there is at least 8 of them who play both

I guess maybe not actually

[surreal barn]

I play both

[jolly sierra]

day ??? + 1

still stacking gold w transmutes while end season is announced

MMR is still raising and ret has the highest rating in SS, maybe will be the powerhouse for those weeks

[wanton breach]

do people suddenly forget how to press buttons once they are on my team and remember said buttons only on the opposing team?

you can't make this shit up

using a def cd right on the enemy team, not using it at all on my team and using it again on the enemy team

[languid ravine]

1600 healers when I m on my trashlock: someones dog is playing for them

1600 healers when I m the other healer: yep still someones dog, but it doesnt matter because everyone is so fucking bad

[jolly sierra]

managed to rejoin PTR

and crafted 2 fanged daggers

gotta test them

dudes BTW

i still have MFD in PTR

is that bugged? can even use it

[potent pivot]

[jolly sierra]

fair enough recrafted all my gear for bis stats

with good ilvl

so im testing now

fang adornments are the 7th damage source with 6,3% overall dmg

garrote rupture and envenom are the highest damage sources overall

fangs damage is comparable to internal bleeding dmg it seems

conclusions

imo doesn't worth the shot to get 2

xddd

[spring bough]

so talent for MFD day before patch goes live and pray to god you still have it LOL

[jolly sierra]

XDDDDDDDDDDDDD

how u said BG queue was insta? i have no queues since i logged in lol

neither for skirmishes

this shit is plagued of pve players

[halcyon timber]

PrAisE tHe sImS

[jolly sierra]

+100 dps to recount

the only guy went here to duel was a fury warrior stacking death wish before engaging in combat and died like in 4 seconds

xddd

so doesn't count

[halcyon timber]

Fury warrior pov

• throws his computer out the window for being sapped *

[low moon]

warriors dont get sapped tho

[jolly sierra]

i just opened with cheap shot

dotted him, disarmed him after the stun

ran away after applying DM w kingsbane and died

i always run after applying everything in a duel

[halcyon timber]

They do when they are too dumb to read their abilities

[halcyon timber]

How did that not scuff his behind up by itself?

Especially deathwish making them take more damage

Or health sacrificed whatever

[jolly sierra]

ME WARRIOR ME SMASH ME HIT HARD

maybe just read the dmg buff part

[halcyon timber]

Gets sapped

[jolly sierra]

and excluded the dmg received part

see him later against a pve shaman

and exploded him

[halcyon timber]

I don’t remember if they receive more damage or sacrifice life per stack

[jolly sierra]

receive more

equally to the dmg u boosted

[halcyon timber]

Ah mk

Rogue is doing too much

[jolly sierra]

hope that reflexes in live

for 10.2

[halcyon timber]

The nerfs will as soon as people get mugged for hopping around in war mode for the bOnuS

[spring bough]

solo makes me cringe

ripping on this WW monk all game 5-0 into last round aaaaaannnnnnd leaves

[halcyon timber]

Warlock psyop is working it sounds like

[jolly sierra]

XD

[tribal badger]

i just had

a very interesting lobby

with an ele playing some gimped 1 shot only build

100 to zero in 1.2s

[spring bough]

bro holy shit same lol

175k lightning bolt on healer for KB

healer was like 50% instant dead lol

[spring bough]

went from 95% to 0 that fast lol

[tribal badger]

sheeesh

[spring bough]

3 lava bursts all combined there for 300k + at the end

342k looks like bro didnt have a chance

it was like he was there and then POOF gone

[jolly sierra]

then ppl says

"WHY U ARE SO BAD"

[spring bough]

pretty much

"what is going on what happened" then someone leaves lol

[jolly sierra]

i wonder how many mmr did i stacked across all this time

don't recall last time i pvped w ret ngl

[frigid surge]

Does Deathmark replicating wound poison duplicate the healing reduction?

[waxen meteor]

Yes in 10.0

not now

[frigid surge]

F

oh whelp

[languid ravine]

not bad, but I am still the world record holder

[wanton breach]

just play around it 4head

[tight eagle]

Does anyone have a good resource for a list of CD's of other classes that I should be aware of? Offensive and Defensive preferably and extra bonus points for a resource with notes on how to react to them.

For context: I've played rogue since vanilla, but I took a break in WotLK and then only played sporadically since and I don't know which class can do what and what I need to be cognizant of

[potent pivot]

If you’re just trying to learn what other classes do, a great thing to do can be just making a class trial character of whatever class and checking it out - hands on

I can’t think anything that lists out what you need to be weary of off the top of my head, it kinda just comes with time as you play and learn

[tight eagle]

@potent pivot yeah that's fair. Are you saying do the class trial like from the character creation screen?

[stoic spruce]

Yeah it's a pretty good way to learn your opposition

[surreal barn]

Careful rolling a WW monk trial

We may never see you again

[tight eagle]

LOL, yeah facts Zeiss. Rogues are always the ugly step cousin right?

Thank you all for the advice! I'll check that out. I'm sure it'll help me understand a bit more at least

[potent pivot]

Np, if you have any questions about anything feel free to ask. Even if it concerns other classes abilities, can try to give tips if you get stuck wondering about something

[jolly sierra]

i did and im here gladly

XDDDDD

nah, played monk since mop as alt or main

[surreal barn]

I mained during mop

Easiest gold carries I ever made

[jolly sierra]

monk pre legion was different af in playstyle

still recall fucking jabs

and still miss them OOF

make it a glyph w tiger's palm cmon

[idle root]

bro i just played against a frost dk in shuffle and he fucking pumped hard holy

gigachad

[jolly sierra]

chad

arclight rumble event up

[idle root]

wtf is it

[jolly sierra]

an event

dunno if will stay just for today

[twin burrow]

i cant read brazilian

[jolly sierra]

[languid ravine]

Cheat death is still bugged from time to time

this guy died 0,1 sec after CDeath and it healed him for only 4.4k

[jolly sierra]

went to SW to complete the arclight collection as horde

nobody attacked me besides NPCs lol

[jolly sierra]

depends about how the guy died

was against a frost mage?

[languid ravine]

he died to enhance and marksman, autos and one poison tick

[sour charm]

Chances of MFD returning this PTR patch?

[wary spire]

Hmm let me check.

The spirits report "maybe"!

[jolly sierra]

if enh was the last thing to hit then probably died cuz a maelstrom proc

if some attack is simultaneous then cheat death won't trigger as intended

same happens w glacial pike and icicles

[languid ravine]

not sure where you get the idea that this is intended

coz it definitely isnt according to the games own wording

[jolly sierra]

a lot of stuff is not working according to the games own wording dude

like rog detection

or lock inquisitor's gaze

[languid ravine]

are you telling me it's not bugged at all and hunter poison actually deals 35000 damage per tick?

[twin burrow]

You can get ruptures pretty high

[jolly sierra]

yeah envenom is bugged af too and i can hit 200k sometimes if im lucky lol

[waxen meteor]

everybody must be doing ults now

queue this week is so slow compared to last week

[jolly sierra]

when i q in ptr for some quick and random shit never got anything ready

[uneven grove]

best change ever

[stoic spruce]

Lmaooo

[uneven grove]

i could never write that fcking spell down

correctly

[queen geyser]

Triple Threat good now????

(Probably not but I'm gonna run it anyway for science)

[stoic spruce]

I don't even remember what it does lol

[queen geyser]

Basically a 15% chance to get 2 extra swings off a double swing

[jolly sierra]

sounds cool af

alright seems like embellishment are even more irrelevant now

ME WIN

[halcyon timber]

Huge bro!

[halcyon timber]

For rogue science 🧪

Embellishment nerfs are probably wise, they can tune classes outside of that easier.

[queen geyser]

I'm curious how it interacts with CTO now

Like

[halcyon timber]

“Should” be good no?

[queen geyser]

If Triple Threat procs that's a total...

32% chance? for one CTO proc?

64% in Dance, but you're hitting Ambush there anyway so

Wait wait wait

32% in Dance, if HO procs

Not bad

[sour charm]

check notes
mfd still removed

Time to wait for another week and hope.

[halcyon timber]

That helm enchant we were asking about/ reporting got nerfed by 70% good

Along w all the other tom foolery

Yeah gotta write that off, mfd aint coming back home.

[sour charm]

I don't want to play Assa without it

[uneven grove]

it's not that bad now, if u use 3 cp ambush

[sour charm]

If I wanted to press shadowdance I'd play sub.

[halcyon timber]

It is what it is man

Back to wrath style stuff before mfd was around

[uneven grove]

you have any problem in life? ---> it is what it is

always works

problem solved

[halcyon timber]

Yeah sucks but can’t do anything about it

[sour charm]

Well in wrath I also didn't have to play dance as assa ;^)

[halcyon timber]

We have brought it up a lot on the forums

Don’t “have” to now either so /shrug

[uneven grove]

tbh i was a ww main for years, if i see "windwalker" word in patch notes i would be happy af

so i welcome any change basically, shake up things at least

[sour charm]

That aside, I just don't like the skill and I think ita bad design if all 3 specs are designed around picking one keystone

[halcyon timber]

Would love to go back to cataclysm style subtlety but that aint flying either

[queen geyser]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/877270297076707410/1158149191441338490/ItIsWhatItIs.mp4?ex=651b31fc&is=6519e07c&hm=07655072ee604670bed5ab745e28f78751a44d99ddb21c2b57ce404e2b494e3a&

[queen geyser]

Better idea: Move Tea, put Vendetta in it's place

Kill ER, put Bandit's Guile in it's place

Bada bing bada boom

rouge fixed

[sour charm]

I was kind of hoping to see another touch up on the tree but it seems we are already in the numbers tuning phase.

[halcyon timber]

Agreed

What do you assassination guys think so far?

[uneven grove]

will be great for my morning coffee since now

[uneven grove]

i would give up so much for having vendetta instead of deathmark

[surreal barn]

That skill was so fun

[wary spire]

No new assa survival

[quaint cedar]

Outlaw changes are legit so fucked

Can't wait to be bottom tier in pvp for 6+ months again

[wary spire]

11.0 will save us!

[quaint cedar]

I stand by what I said before. If outlaw ends up being garbage in pvp AGAIN then I'm done with this game

[wary spire]

So you will be... out?

[uneven grove]

for 6 months max

[wary spire]

That'd be against the law.

[halcyon timber]

:/

[quaint cedar]

You all watch. Outlaw will be the only reworked spec to somehow be garbage

[halcyon timber]

Sincerely hope not

[quaint cedar]

And after the rework it will just be gg go next expac

[halcyon timber]

Pve channels are coming up with more silly ideas.

[quaint cedar]

Because it's not like anyone is going to give a flying fuck at that point

[halcyon timber]

That is super uncool man

[surreal barn]

lol what

[halcyon timber]

Its nerfed and probably nerfed further in pvp so yeah

[queen geyser]

Guys I think we'll be fine

Tooltip bugged

But that's 65%

With tier set, SnC, and Brawler stacks

Just get SnC off of CTO

Refresh it with tier set

And you're cruising

[quaint cedar]

Too much bullshit stacking though

Yay, more work to do the same things I can do for free on live

And do less damage

Fucking brilliant

[queen geyser]

Eeyup

[quaint cedar]

Apparently fang adornments are getting a 35% nerf

So combined with the lower ilvl I'd guess they might not be worth going for anymore

In S3

[queen geyser]

Good

I don't even want to feel tempted to have to do PvE to PvP

[quaint cedar]

Yeah I'm fine with that

Getting them this season was a pain

Wasn't looking forward to doing it again

[jolly sierra]

good riddance

btw what happened with new season scalewarden gear?

WILL THE DAGGER HAVE VERSA MASTERY?

[halcyon timber]

don't have your hands stretched out long or someone will take a dump in them man. I wouldn't expect it to do so and they have those new "outdoor" gear sets but I haven't explored into the dream to spoil that stuff for myself. (those might be the new scalewarden type gear).

[sharp sonnet]

PvP sub rogue here. Why is it that my eviscerates are hitting for like 60k with the buff from echoing reprimand but when i get hit with even a shadowstrike it takes out like 50k? I got hit with a 100k eviscerate in 2s earlier

[halcyon timber]

Sounds like a gear difference crow.

Bigger eviscerates come from finality and extreme mastery stacking etc.

[jolly bear]

are resto druids unkillable in tree form and how long does it last

[noble spoke]

They're eating good from everything i've seen

[potent pivot]

recently it was slightly nerfed, i think because it looks too strong pve wise? could just be more rework/power per talent point tuning though

[noble spoke]

yeah tuning was expected, there might be more before the launch even, in either direction

[jolly bear]

can people get revived in arena?

[queen geyser]

Eeyup

Brez and self-rez doesn't work, but the long cast rezzes still work

[jolly bear]

wow i didnt even see this guy cast the spell and all of a sudden the priest was alive again

like the cast didnt even show

[jolly bear]

ww h priest

maybe its bc I was dead but I didnt see the cast go off at all he was just spamming emotes and then boom priest is alive

and he had already launched into the sky like a DH for whatever reason they can do that

do yall think I should learn fire mage or destruction warlock for an alt? I've never played casters before

in pvp

cuz im scared

[long shore]

Anyone here plays dark brew build as sub for shuffle?

[jolly bear]

why would you? im genuinely asking bc I dont know other than maybe its more consistent damage

[wanton breach]

this is utterly disgusting to see succeed https://youtu.be/pwgO-C47nEw?si=rUHQV3qKMSq8c0ZI

[uneven grove]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-perfectlybalanced-gif-18301221

[languid ravine]

where are the triple Sub rogue videos?

[wary spire]

Oh god I'm having ptsd flashbacks from shadowlands...

[wanton breach]

holy priests have a talent that lets them get back to life after proccing their angel form

[quaint cedar]

No way to tell yet, but the HO nerf is pretty bad. With the nerf, baseline chance for ambush to double hit will be 28%, which is abysmal.

The 2 pc set bonus adds 15% proc chance (12% for ambush with nerf) which brings it up to 40%. This is similar to live.

However, the tier will be nerfed by 50% in pvp, and it also nerfs enduring brawler.

So with 2 pc and full brawler stacks, your ambush will have a 46% proc chance. Compared to live which is 55%.

That is a substantial nerf

It gets even worse once you add in skull&crossbones

SnC adds 25%. On live, with full brawler stacks and SnC, you have an 80% proc chance. With the nerf, even with full stacks, 2 pc, and SnC, your proc chance will only be 66%.

Again, that's a massive nerf.

It's honestly the worst change that could have been made. I struggle to think of anything more awful that isn't a straight up meme

Idk what inspired this nerf, but if the damage was too high on ptr then an aura nerf would have been better than this

It also uniquely hits pvp harder than pve because of what I highlighted above. And considering how little thought is ever put into pvp, good luck getting any of that fixed

My excitement for 10.2 plummeted yesterday thanks to this awful change

[wary spire]

Yeah I don't think assa's going to be any better than it is now in pvp too.

99% of the focus of assa's rework is aoe stuff.

Sub's looking to be the only real option again.

[quaint cedar]

Yeah, I'm not an assa player but I did notice that a lot of the attention seemed to be on aoe

[wary spire]

It got evis heal or something?

Which is like why.

[quaint cedar]

Yeah some kind of heal on evis that gives an absorb shield if they are at full hp

[wary spire]

As if sub needed help surviving.

[quaint cedar]

Imagine sub rogue does their opener on you, gets a ton of evises off, and then walks away with an absorb shield

L
O
L

[wary spire]

They have top defensives now and they're getting 2 new fucking talents.

[quaint cedar]

Yeah idk man

Outlaw was supposed to be the tanky rogue spec

So much for that

[wary spire]

True.

[quaint cedar]

And sin just dies to air

I don't think assa needs to be tanky really, because you guys have bleeds that can tick even if you need to kite. But you guys should get something at least

Assa just gets flattened by melee cleave, especially in shuffle

[wary spire]

Yeah good luck kiting arms.
I'd love to at least have an option, a choice between def/dam. But nah.

I fear that the new touch of death thing will be somehow too good and we'll get nerfed for it sins.

God knows people will cry about it regardless if it's good or bad.

[quaint cedar]

Yeah the way I see it, it should be like this.
Outlaw has mostly sustain damage and no dots - it should be the tankiest
Assa has dots but does need to stay in long enough to put them up - should have moderate defensives
Sub is hit and run - should be slippery, survivable if played well but easily punished if played poorly

[wary spire]

"Guys look if i stand still for 10 seconds alone doing nothing rogue kills me just like that, is that even fair???"

[quaint cedar]

Yeah auto touch of death is bad for the game imo. It's just going to put a target on assa and get you nerfed

With the defensives, I'd be fine with sub having 2 vanishes if they didn't have vanish cdr

Getting shorter cds on evasion and cloak and blind is just ridiculous. That was supposed to be outlaw's niche

[wary spire]

And our big burst vendetta wannabe can still be removed just like that.

[quaint cedar]

Yup

[wary spire]

Pic of sub getting the best bleeds next expansion so it can have the best sustain, burst, mobility and survivability.

[quaint cedar]

Sub is the hero spec for sure

Sad thing is that it's so gimmicky and clunky

Though some of our sub boys here seem happy with their changes at least which is good

I was thrilled with the outlaw changes until the HO nerf yesterday

[wary spire]

Yeah getting nerfed in pvp because of pve always feels super shitty.

[quaint cedar]

Yup

And even worse when it affects gameplay loops instead of just numbers

Outlaw feels bad when you get starved on procs. This nerf ensures that will happen more often

It nerfs our best pvp talent that takes 45 seconds to fully stack

With 2 pc and full stacks we'll barely be above the proc chance we have on live with 0 stacks

Absolutely ridiculous

I can't get over how upset it makes me

[wary spire]

This whole balancing around tier then nerfing tier in pvp thing seems scuffed af.

[quaint cedar]

Yeah it's awful

I firmly believe a tier set shouldn't be required for a spec to feel complete

This is why

Tier set is nerfed - oh cool, now you're useless

Why the fuck did we bring tier bonuses back again? Couldn't we just have class sets for mogs and put the borrowed power behind us for good?

Imagine tier set bonus goes away the following patch and HO proc stays at 28% baseline

What a joke

[wary spire]

Tier is fun, it's just pvp should have it's own tier. Or none at all. 50% that is not REALLY 50%, because they're not always just flat dam is just so dumb.

Like with current sub 2p gives you 90% of its value pretty much.

[quaint cedar]

Yeah, nerfing the sets by 50% across the board makes no sense. It doesn't affect all specs the same way

[wicked tide]

I still think this seasons sub 2 piece is gonna be insane in 10.2

[wary spire]

Sub's gonna be fine.

Until outlaw levels undertuned.

[wicked tide]

Yeah having 4 guaranteed critical strikes on builders for a burst window and energy regen just seems really good even if you are losing some stats

[wary spire]

Yeah I'd be really excited for the next patch if I was playing sub.

For now the best assa change is that our tier doesn't break our stealth anymore.

[potent pivot]

For the most part it does, from a power budget stand point

[jolly sierra]

im ok with every embelishment nerfed

i hope that shit isnt too used in pvp for s3

but im still concerned about assa

ngl

[quaint cedar]

How is it not a big nerf? When you fall out of the proc loop you do 0 damage. These nerfs make it so that you get way less procs, which translates to way less damage too. Keep in mind we're also losing Find Weakness

[potent pivot]

What nerfs are we discussing? The tiny outlaw nerfs from yesterday?

[quaint cedar]

Not really. The HO nerf was clearly made with the 2pc making up the difference in mind. So nerfing it by 50% is not the same as a nerf to a set bonus that is just flat damage

[quaint cedar]

The nerfs are not tiny. I already explained how big the difference in proc chance will be

[potent pivot]

That’s not really how class tuning is done

[quaint cedar]

It double dips on everything in pvp because set bonus is nerfed and so is enduring now

[potent pivot]

Outlaw was on the verge of looking busted af

It needed to be tuned down

[quaint cedar]

In pve maybe

Not pvp

[potent pivot]

[quaint cedar]

I tested it plenty on ptr in the BG tests

It seemed fine

[potent pivot]

I fully believe we’ve got nothing to be worried about rn

[quaint cedar]

Boomies, locks, eles were still doubling or tripling my damage

[potent pivot]

Why does that matter

Like at all

It’s damage on PTR

[quaint cedar]

What kind of question is that?

Yeah but the nerf isn't just damage, it's gameplay

It's hurting the core gameplay loop of outlaw

I would have been fine with an aura nerf

Like -5% less damage or whatever it needed to be

Not this

[potent pivot]

See now that opinion I can sympathize with

[quaint cedar]

This just makes the spec feel worse to play and rely more on RNG

Yeah but ambush procs are what gives you pistol procs

No ambush double hits = no pistol procs

And besides, we shouldn't feel like garbage outside of a 6 second stealth window

That's subs thing, not ours

No we won't

????????

Wtf are you talking about

Audacity?

If you say so

Just ignore the numbers I suppose

Stick your head in the sand it will be fine

Did you test on ptr at all?

Hitting into plate is noticeably worse

Than on live

Where does that number come from?

Nightstalker is nerfed on ptr btw compared to live so not really a bonus there

You seem to be focusing on just the crackshot windows. But what about the other 90% of your gameplay?

Stealth windows last 6 seconds

Figure you get 12 seconds out of every minute (dance + vanish). 80% of your gameplay is out of stealth windows then. What about that?

BtE has a CD outside of stealth though

Yeah

But still our burst with crackshot is not like MM or anything. Our sustain still needs to be good

I'm worried its going to both be significantly worse and feel worse to play

Because of the lower proc chance

And no FW doesn't help either

I think removing FW was a smart idea because it removes the dependency on audacity. But then armor pen needs to go somewhere else in outlaw's kit

Yeah that's my issue

Outlaw getting torched in pvp for no reason

We could easily fix all of this by doubling the % per stack of enduring and adding armor pen to it.
So total 30% extra proc chance + 30% armor pen. With HO nerf that makes for extra 24% proc chance at full stacks, which offsets the nerf in pvp

And 30% armor pen is what we used to have

It's mainly a pvp thing anyways, might as well tie it to our pvp talent

[halcyon timber]

No combo point gen on rotten so no degen ish. Also tier needs to eff off and people need to quit doing crap like that to get us nerfed. The consequences from “just because we can” always suck ass.

[tight eagle]

Are you saying people shouldn't use a Meta because it might get nerfed? Genuinely not understanding your position above

[wicked tide]

Combo point regen doesn’t matter when u have blades popped and ur gaining max CP anyways. The energy regen to ensure u have the energy to burst on your window and the guaranteed crit is what makes this strong

[halcyon timber]

Yes and should be avoided to not be a degen.

Every subtlety rogue understands that loop

[wicked tide]

What do you mean by degen?

[tight eagle]

degenerate I imagine

[halcyon timber]

Runninng around memeing hur hur so much damage from using old tier set plus new stuff is what consistent gets us effed up

Because blizz wont do the right thing and players don’t do it either

[tight eagle]

that's the devs problem though. Players use the meta if they want to be competitive...

[wicked tide]

If they are smart they will disable it otherwise it seems like it’s intended to sacrifice stats and health

[tight eagle]

if that even becomes meta to Tano's point

[halcyon timber]

Meta chasing is lame af

[tight eagle]

lmao

[halcyon timber]

Think for yourselves boys

[tight eagle]

go play a single player game

[wicked tide]

Your trolling for discussing min maxing

If your okay playing at a lower level that’s on you

[tight eagle]

Some people use off-meta to have an excuse why they lose maybe

"If I abused sub, I'd be good too!"

[halcyon timber]

K calm down captain combo

[wary spire]

Me too. I wish realz would talk with us here other that by a guy randomly @ at him. Explain his vision for pvp stuff.

[tight eagle]

lol you're in the pvp channel talking shit about being competitive.

[halcyon timber]

He probably doesn’t handle pvp probably man

No idea and prob never will

just min maxing and pumping your chest out at people is a turd thing to do. Be cool man its not a discussion then.

[wicked tide]

So I check pvp and your running a meta build

[tight eagle]

LMAO

[wary spire]

I mean. All those changes are for pvp as well. Surely "pvp is a minigame" is just a meme. Right guys? Right?

[halcyon timber]

No idea chef

Check pvp is for nerds bud. Play what you like.

[wicked tide]

What are you even arguing man I’m really confused

[tight eagle]

he doesn't even know anymore. He's just trolling I think

[jolly sierra]

literal was a guy which never comes here who summoned him

impressive

[wicked tide]

Seems that way, and I am playing an off meta sub build at a much higher rating then you

[jolly sierra]

dunno im preparing both the ww and the ret for SS with all that MMR stacking

i didn't played since like a month and half

= D

[halcyon timber]

Cool good for you bubs.

Shuffle is rough

[wicked tide]

Just making a point that I’m taking your advice and playing what I like to play and your playing a copy pasted build from one of the top rogues

[halcyon timber]

Could care less what they are running in all honesty man

[wicked tide]

You just happen to be playing their exact build tho right

You swapped to gloomblade ironically when everyone else did right

[tight eagle]

Then why talk shit from the beginning? Like it's the players fault if a dev leaves in something to be used

[halcyon timber]

Holy moly boys change train tracks already

[wicked tide]

I just was theory crafting what would possibly be meta and you trolled for it

[halcyon timber]

Its cool people run thing similarly, thats neat

Play what you like and if it works it works. If it doesn’t change it, no big deal man

[wicked tide]

Bro are you bipolar?

[halcyon timber]

Nope, good day my good sir

[proper heath]

wait can you not kick eye beam anymore?

What?!

[wary spire]

Eyes are too high up.

[halcyon timber]

Nope, it is uninterruptible. Have to gouge it as an example

[tight eagle]

gouging eye beam might be too meta though