pvp

[halcyon timber]

Yes but GS is 15%
Fw is just a 10% amp

[quaint cedar]

I'm fine with FW being sub's thing but I wish realz gave outlaw some kind of armor bypass mechanic it its place

[halcyon timber]

Yes but it’s def GS kinda like how Sv was for me back in the day

Until pvers pruned it

Revealing strike was replaced w gs to do the same thing

[quaint cedar]

It was fine 10 years ago when more things were physical damage, but now it's just weird for outlaw and MM to be the only two specs uniquely punished in this way

[halcyon timber]

Arcane shot does 100k on live
Serpent sting can be a heavy dot
Aimed shot does 50% more damage when higher or below certain thresholds and RF just straight up does damage. Wind arrow is also unaspected nature damage from them and they do have bleeds to go through armor too

Yeah resilience was only used so much back in the day and people just slammed pve pieces after that.

[spring bough]

Locks will never get hit w the nerf bat. They’ve been blizzards S tier since TBC it feels like and they’ve always had the choice of spec cause any of them blast lmfao

[surreal barn]

Hunters lose the FD DOT drop in 10.2 I think

Locks prob happy about that one

[spring bough]

Hasn’t that dot drop been around since the beginning????

If I were a main hunter I’d be so pissed about that lol

See blizz does anything to help them locks out lol

[surreal barn]

Anyone wanna f around on ptr

[shadow creek]

Anyone heard any updates on the Blackjack bug? Is it being looked at?

[jolly sierra]

hi segs

[uneven grove]

when is solo rbg test? tomorrow night?

[jolly sierra]

is today in US tho

the guys asked me to go too but i said no sadly, i need to go outside for today

[waxen meteor]

kinda funny, why only 2 chars of mine has weekly of skirmish

main and etc. only picked up the pet pvp weekly

[obsidian yew]

Sorry if stupid question, is outlaw good right know? Usually the amount of buttons you need to press vs damage you do doesn't really match, how is it this patch? Had a really long break from the game

[potent pivot]

I can remember a few times where all 3 lock specs were ass ngl

[potent pivot]

It’s good

[surreal barn]

Just got a 349k echoing reprimand on a person

[shadow creek]

Much, much better in 10.2 so far, more damage and more burst...we'll see where we end up at launch...one thing we are missing is Find Weakness, so mitigation will increase significantly as from cloth to plate

[obsidian yew]

Damn thanks guys 🙏 I hope they will buff our burst, its just insane going to outlaw from class like arms or frost dk and you do 0 damage compared

Atleast thats how I felt at the beginning of season 1

[potent pivot]

Have you looked at the patch notes

Killing spree bouta bang

[obsidian yew]

Last time I used killing spree was in shadowlands, that's cool that they are buffing

[peak agate]

everytime I face double frost mage, I die a little faster.

[shadow creek]

I remember from before the Ahn'Qiraj gates first opened in Silithus, there were locks there just obliterating anyone who tried to do turn-ins, they were like raid bosses, it was nuts

[surreal barn]

401k echoing reprimand on ptr

Looool

[peak agate]

damn, got a screen shot

[halcyon timber]

ER was buffed

Verdant gear has weird scaling as well so.

[peak agate]

I wonder if there are some modifiers that are causing that much damage

seems to hit ok on the dummies

[quaint cedar]

Guess I missed ER being buffed

Wonder if it would do that on outlaw too or if you need sub modifiers

[halcyon timber]

Yes, its stacking every thing possible w rotten and pv which has to be built up

[surreal barn]

So get this

You can use your first dance to hit a 407k ER

Then second dance to hit a 413 goremaws

[halcyon timber]

Yeah if you split em up sure

[surreal barn]

I want them to throw macabre in the trash can

[halcyon timber]

Likewise but pvers

[surreal barn]

I 100% hate that shit

My Tauren’s name is Moocabre but I’d still be fine if they dumpstered it

[halcyon timber]

wE sHuD bE sLow aNd aLl bUrSt dOnkEy

Dumb shit

Ptr might also not have dm nerfed

Haven’t bothered to look yet

Or ds

[jolly sierra]

got that match once in my warr this season in 2s

agh

[halcyon timber]

Same time , kb can do similar damage too

[jolly sierra]

kingsbane?

yeah it turned good af as capstone

[halcyon timber]

Fix killing spree though none of this false advertisement of giving outlaw burst and then leaving them with nothing

Out does have a 5% buff coming next week as well though and more changes i believe from that derailed forum post

Yeah kb “can” do 300k ticks

[peak agate]

well 300k ticks good for cap stone and pve bosses having millions of hp. Math isn't even ironed out yet.

[halcyon timber]

Agreed its still good though

Outlaw seems to be KS + MG + whatever else for their comparison

[peak agate]

i know some pvers crit for 1 million with all the multipliers the game has.

[halcyon timber]

My point is lets not get hung up on what each other “can do” out of envy or whatever

When in reality it’s probably nearly identical in damage

[peak agate]

Its just math and it will even out towards the end.

[halcyon timber]

Where rogues probably still aint that hot

[peak agate]

you would think all the pure dps classes would be top of pve chain

(i honestly dont know whats top pve)

[halcyon timber]

Meh it’s whatever, i just hate when other classes constantly talk shit

[peak agate]

its a game where a the majority want the path of least resistence

[halcyon timber]

Yeah agreed

[peak agate]

Like im sure they are people that want their 500k death beams for their class and will rationalize because some boomkin hit them once for that amount.

[surreal barn]

442k this time

[peak agate]

yeah its sub thing because when I went to ptr the best I could do was like 100k

[surreal barn]

You have to take the perforated veins talent and then go to 4 stacks. Right before you echoing you use a gloomblade for your 5th stack

[peak agate]

so a sub thing

[shadow creek]

#justsubthings

[peak agate]

that spec is king of stacking shit together

and then it gets nerfed

[halcyon timber]

Does piss all out of it wooo

Then becomes trash again

Terrific once again

[peak agate]

Sin now looks like melee affliction on the target dummy. It just a long string of tiny yellow damage and BAM 100k something.

[halcyon timber]

Thing is us Subtlety rogues are about planning and shit and hard calculated hits

Nerf the goofy abilities,not the talents

Pv is good but its “that” good

Just dumb knee jerk nerfs most of the time

[peak agate]

Always found Sub cumbersome. Its a lot of gimmicky gameplay.

[hybrid cypress]

Hey guys, im new to the game just started playing a month ago and i have a few characters max lvl, i tested a few in 2s and i really liked playing sub rogue but im trash, so i was wondering if you guys have any tips or guides for me to improve, because everything i found was outdated and i dont know what is good and what its not

sry for the long text

[peak agate]

Welcome to the game!

[hybrid cypress]

ty man

[shadow creek]

Welcome!

[halcyon timber]

No idea why we can’t just have hard ass glooms and decent hits but the answer is the jackasses upstairs . That’s why

Always been a subtlety rogue and always will but

Nerf the extra stuff, treat pvers the same way they treat us as well

See how fun it is then

[halcyon timber]

Welcome man , hope you’re finding your style so far

[waxen meteor]

I think it's better just make the live version rupture duplicate talent easy to obtain

it resolves at least some of the issue

[halcyon timber]

It is on ptr

Can easily grab RS

RS is blood serrated blades from back in the day but with a twist

Subtlety sustain has always been through bleeds and good backstabs

Thing is Danse Macabre is where our FW went to

Cata was 100% and wod was 50%

SV is fw now + symols and your choice of dd or vt

It still has “sustain” just its just disguised

DM just affects all damage now and its that way on purpose except id say 100% fw was far more difficult to balance

[peak agate]

You can do the stealth focus and shadow/deception gameplay simpler but it probably requires a few changes in that old spaghetti code.

[halcyon timber]

Wrath bs was just overtuned nonsense because we had trash ass energy tegen

Agreed its always going to be that way as realz already told us we aren’t going back

Its a combination of all expansions now is what rogues have turned into

Im thankful he at least pulled lessons from the past in

And ptr is far better than live

Like seriously way damn better

For all 3 of us

Its just that blizzy likes to nerf rogues and then leave warlocks and shit to still do full damage

But nerf rogues is fine

Because f us

[peak agate]

The changes to sin makes it a lot smoother to play. I don't feel like I'm starving for energy and I 0 haste on ptr.

[halcyon timber]

Yeah the changes were nice

I just don’t agree at all w nerfing shadow techniques because the bums upstairs “say so”

“We want to be slower” who the fuck wants to not press abilities? They aren’t going to justify buffing your gimmicks by 15% or something. You’re out of your mind if you think that is fun or balanced

Second of all who is “we” there is no “we” just a pve cult of nonsense

My point is before i get too angry

• there should be different styles in our trees (which are on ptr)
• rogues should be smooth across the game and in all content because if what you picked.
• no more pandering to personal agendas or silly shit
• if something rightfully gets tuned, it shouldn’t “break” the spec because of shit decisions to put said things in

[wicked tide]

I really think this season of sub has been some of the smoothest gameplay it’s seen in awhile

Mostly because of the 2 piece and cdr

[halcyon timber]

Live sucks

[halcyon timber]

Its reliant on the tier

[wicked tide]

Yea I’m surprised the tier wasn’t made into a talent

[halcyon timber]

F the tier

Fix energy

[wicked tide]

But apparently they don’t want us having that kind of energy regen

[halcyon timber]

Which WAS done

[wicked tide]

First day of PTR kalvish and Palumbo r was saying energy regen was slow so I can only imagine how slow it’s gonna feel now with this nerf

[halcyon timber]

Energy regen is smooth on ptr

[wicked tide]

That’s good to hear I haven’t played it

[halcyon timber]

Its good

Not crazy

Pvers are off their rockets

Rockers

[surreal barn]

Let finishers refresh goremaws too ayeee

[halcyon timber]

Nerf tea

[surreal barn]

Goremaws every dance would be kinda nice

[halcyon timber]

Nah im cool lets not make dependencies

Shit needs to be desynced on purpose

Decision making when / how should be more than all

Like i fought hard as hell for goremaws to come back

[wicked tide]

Why don’t you like life 2 piece tho?

It’s a beautiful thing having energy every time you dance

[halcyon timber]

1 sec driving

And ill tell you

Because tier sets sre meant to be supplementary. Not fix issues. Ptr subtlety beautifully fixes it while also providing options instead of an unhealthy reliance on stuff

We have energy every time w mos and making good decisions. Not a 3sec symbols nonsense ducttaping our stuff together

Yea it was a creative hold over but , smoothing out our stuff > anything else

[peak agate]

I think it would help if blizzard was forthcoming about their design philosophy and their inspiration for each archetype (spec). Like why is Assassination a dot spec? Is it because of poisons which all specs have access to?

[halcyon timber]

Because they listen to all the hijackers

I mean assassins can at least do fat ambush damage again

Which is refreshing

[peak agate]

And I'm not mad that it's a dot spec but initially when I started playing on prehistoric times. It was big mut crits

[halcyon timber]

Not sure how to get envenom to be fat again though

Yeah fat mutilates were sick

The some pve nerds “wereee alll the sammeeee” get.off.our.class

[peak agate]

And that's when you just to behind the target.

[halcyon timber]

Like what amps go to mut now?

Like it “can” do damage but its additional bleeds and nature damage on ptr?

[peak agate]

All of muts modifers on ptr make nice to press. It's just like 6 different numbers

[halcyon timber]

Which is cool because that all ignores armor

Yeah its lame not seeing 1 number but thats how they keep us happy while keeping the number boners upstairs happy too

[peak agate]

Well except the physical part. That's the only active button (not counting ambush) that doesn't ignore armor. I think even sbs initial hit is shadow.

Oh and shiv but w e

[halcyon timber]

Yeah would have to see on details for clarification i guess .

This is the type of stuff we need to pin point now as a group

If not, we get shaped around turds and fairy god mothers making stuff up and spreading more nonsense

[peak agate]

I mean I think they can give each spec the fury 2 button special. Simple and high DPS. Can't complain about your damage if the hardest thing you have to do is press the buttons as soon as they light up

[halcyon timber]

Shiv is filthy, does 300% now right?

Yeah i like how things are on ptr

[peak agate]

Yeah it was slightly nerf from live me thinks

[halcyon timber]

Really? Thought it was 200% on live

Sl was 400% or 450 during beta and was very good for all 3 of us

[peak agate]

500% on live

[halcyon timber]

Shiv for a brief moment was the hardest hitting ability

Ah dang

Well , better that than all eggs in 1 basket

Like overloading ct

[peak agate]

Yeah it's better since it's just buffing the dots/poison more overall

It never really hit that hard to begin with

[halcyon timber]

So what’s the plan for envenom from your professional stand point? I obviously have zero weight and just want to understand

[quaint cedar]

Just got into my first solo Q BG

you guys weren't kidding

locks are insanely broken

51 mil and 49 mil

[halcyon timber]

Thought it wasn’t rdy till 6? 😮

Yeah locks crank with core abilities

[quaint cedar]

I figured I'd give it a try

people are queuing it apparently

already got another one

[halcyon timber]

Ohh mk so the event isn’t until 6 then

Represent our kind well

[peak agate]

Honestly, I'd leave alone. At this point most of our damage are dots. It would have to be a complete redesign of the spec to make it a hard hitting finisher.

[halcyon timber]

Lock was prob using the satan glyph talent that chaos bolts everyone in an area though for split damage and was padding

[halcyon timber]

Makes sense, at least the master poisoner is still true to you guys. Assassination and Subtlety always have had good bleed damage.

Blood splatter + + serrated blades was sick back in the day

Only way to beat plate

[peak agate]

Would have to get rid of the bleeds and make it some weird physical/poison hybrid that it's kind of becoming

[halcyon timber]

Yeah sounds weird

Mastery should help though

Ive been experimenting on ptr with mastery (earthen i think) and it checks out nicely

[quaint cedar]

So far 10.2 ptr with gear feels really weird

[halcyon timber]

Since stats seem to be at 55%-52% equipped with full conquest on verdant combinations

[quaint cedar]

Seems like health bars don't move much unless a lock is hitting it

[halcyon timber]

Yeah we did a slinky

Stamina is way higher so rogue damage in a kidney isn’t that hot

Not including peoples DRs or increased armor like bear / evoker etc

It seems we are going to have to soften people up first and then try to kidney

[peak agate]

Wait until those updated pvp modifiers hit boys. 😂

[halcyon timber]

Whacha mean? Tuning you mean ?

I think they are going to keep gems and crap off gear for sure for us though from current ptr gearing

[quaint cedar]

I'll show difference in stats between 10.1.7 and 10.2

Above is 10.1.7

Here is 10.2

I feel like my agility barely went up

[halcyon timber]

Need to plot a graph and make a trend line to see how it is scaling honestly

Yeah primary stats are tapering off so stuff like sophic becomes less impactful akin to other enchants

Same happened with landslide enchant back in cata i believe it was

We still had spell pen back then so rogues ran around with elemental something something and envenom destroyed the f out of people

[peak agate]

Most of the scaling is secondary stats and hp

[quaint cedar]

Yeah

Be curious to see what a lock's stats look like

[halcyon timber]

Because secondaries can catch up now

[quaint cedar]

They are consistantly doing 40 mil + in these BGs

The next lowest class is like 20 mil

[peak agate]

They don't want people shitting out 3 million criticals in pve with an instant cast 😭

[halcyon timber]

Whats the damage break down though on abilities with a details ss?

Then that can give us a bigger picture of padding vs single target

[quaint cedar]

Details is messing for the BGs because it breaks up individual group fights

[halcyon timber]

Moonkin probably would do the same and shadow priest

[quaint cedar]

If that's what you're asking for

[halcyon timber]

Oh ol dang

[peak agate]

If I was home I'd copy my lock and tell you. I bet she'll have 1.2 million health

[halcyon timber]

Yeah easily, we saw that yesterday

[quaint cedar]

I'd check myself but I dont have a lock

I had supatease in my last one

He did 26 mil as balance druid

Still crazy but not nearly as much as the locks

[halcyon timber]

Starfall padding into star surges

Ill log on in a little , im out atm

[peak agate]

Yeah Starfall is stat padder along with moon fire

[halcyon timber]

If they were going to “balance” things, they just should reserve slots for classes and specs

[peak agate]

It's like if I go into an epic bg with all the AOE talents.

[halcyon timber]

That way a more accurate spread can be seen

Get good isn’t an excuse for pve aoe in pvp . That’s just a case of rock paper rocket launcher

[jolly sierra]

any info about s3 scalewarden gear?

[halcyon timber]

Not yet atm. Ive been looking as well. That needs to chill out w scaling though as well so we avoid degen stuff.

[peak agate]

Im wondering if we will get 2 free crafting pieces from winning a bg again

[jolly sierra]

hope this time they do a vers mastery dagger early in builds

instead in early live patch like last time

[peak agate]

Or they can give us a crafting token for weapons

[halcyon timber]

^

[peak agate]

Cause the best thing about crafting gear is you can change the stats.

[peak agate]

Whenever....you want

For a low fee thanks to all the bots this game has

Also benefits blizzard because it makes more people use the crafting system and keeps pvpers with low ilvl in pve. Can't have those high end pvers getting mad.

[halcyon timber]

XD

[quaint cedar]

I'm very confused. Even with 27 more ilvl my ability numbers are roughly the same as on live

How is that possible?

Am I missing something

I'm testing on training dummy

[halcyon timber]

Probably more a shift in damage

[peak agate]

Try on actual mobs tho

Or people

Cause I was zipping through the questline

[halcyon timber]

100% spread on different abilities/ interactions but still a net gain versus before

[quaint cedar]

No like something is weird I swear

[halcyon timber]

Yeah enemies will have variance on armor and such

[quaint cedar]

Let me show you

[halcyon timber]

Wouldn’t definitely know unless we did a huge data log

[quaint cedar]

Here's ambush on pvp dummy on ptr

[halcyon timber]

You’re also getting a buff in the next build too kleever

[peak agate]

I had both live and ptr running and there was different damage spread

But I didn't try outlaw either

[quaint cedar]

Here's ambush on 10.1.7

The average hits are basically the same

Even with 27 more ilvl

[halcyon timber]

Primary stat flattened out

So versatility will oddly scale more? Not sure

[quaint cedar]

No we're not getting a buff at all

not that I've been told

idk what's going on but something isn't right

[halcyon timber]

Let me see rq

[quaint cedar]

I picked ambush because nothing changed talent-wise that should have modified it

unlike BtE and dispatch which would have changed

[quaint cedar]

I should be doing roughly 20% more damage on ptr

[halcyon timber]

Oh that was the note

[quaint cedar]

But it's the same

[halcyon timber]

Sheet

Yeah something is off for sure

That account for GS amp too?

Vs FW live? Also any talents changed +/- agility difference, enchants / loss of gems etc

[peak agate]

Yeah cause ambush on ass is better but only due to the poison crits

[halcyon timber]

Also wonder if opportunity is more frequent to get secondary ambushes and maybe thats why it isn’t scaling as high?

[peak agate]

Good point

[halcyon timber]

Psn amp on assassin has diff amp and obviously scaling w mastery + shiv + x

Ambush on outlaw comprises of = gm + gs + ??

For a total of X

In theory outlaw with procs and such hits the hardest on ambush period

[peak agate]

I was talking about just regular ambush with the poison talent no shiv.

[halcyon timber]

Ah mk

[peak agate]

Procs often enough

[halcyon timber]

So the breakdown is similar but done in different ways as you suggested earlier but ambush for all 3 of us is most likely very very close +- variance

[jolly sierra]

think we gotta go in the eridian way if dmg is rough

just fkn use the absorb necklace and go

[halcyon timber]

Yeah i use it for a secondary absorb with feint mostly

To try to live vs anything pretty much

Problem is it scales w gems per unique one and that’s going away too

So its not very good at all in 10.2 unless you’re using it for restealth for a moment so you can slip away before it breaks

[jolly sierra]

lemme see

[halcyon timber]

Also affected by dampening mind you

70% life crit stacking one is what im eyeing atm or the secondary stats one

[jolly sierra]

will u absorb shit dmg is u just use zen gems?

[worldly girder]

does the symbols proc from sub 2 set also give the energy regen?

[jolly sierra]

or u can use the same gems for use well the neck?

[halcyon timber]

It is amplified per gem you use for a fixed amount. Haven’t tried lesser gems like

[jolly sierra]

k

[halcyon timber]

Yeah you can use whatever gems

[jolly sierra]

is still not bad tho

remember we have that shitty cloak nerfed

[halcyon timber]

Yes on dance but symbols is only 3s duration mind you so be ready to act quickly

[halcyon timber]

Yeah I prefer the on demand to use at my leisure

[quaint cedar]

Did better on this one. Goes a lot better when you have the locks on your team lmao

[worldly girder]

if i manually use symbols does it extend the symbols proc or override it?

[quaint cedar]

idk damage definitely feels really strange on ptr

Some classes are doing infinite damage for some reason

[worldly girder]

im playing the standard build without finisher energy reduc and i feel energy starved a lot

[quaint cedar]

Rogue seems very average right now

[worldly girder]

compared to last season anyway

[halcyon timber]

Its funky but it is by order of precedence usually extends

[quaint cedar]

Which I guess is fine but ngl it's a bit underwhelming to be mid after a rework when rets got to be gods for a month straight

[halcyon timber]

Experiment and play what you like. Forget meta chasing just be damn good at what you do.

[worldly girder]

ty!

[jolly sierra]

im saving a neck then tho

[peak agate]

Just what my spec is used to. LFG!

[jolly sierra]

like with the dagger

[halcyon timber]

All subject to tuning im fine w it as choices > all else . Thing is rets were tuned very high and received a talent revamp

[jolly sierra]

was a miracle it resulted in r5 by a public order

[halcyon timber]

Form and function for smoothness is our primary objective here

Rogues they are very careful w us

Kinda like in mop

[peak agate]

If people gave me good tips. 90% of the public orders id do would be 5 stars. 😂

[halcyon timber]

Yeah I usually tip 4k gold on stuff i really want done

[jolly sierra]

i gave 2k + mats for that

ofc i wont give 420,69g this time if it doesnt scales w pvp XD

[uneven grove]

blizz dev sniped

[jolly sierra]

wut

[peak agate]

Sometimes I get an inspiration proc when I don't want it to because the give 70 gold top.

[jolly sierra]

yeah when it happens is F

nothing to do

and btw i just used r3 mats

so it was easier to proc

[peak agate]

Glad you got the proc tho

Speaking of professions we should try to vouch for crafted weapons.

Let me stack mastery verse blizz

[halcyon timber]

Probably a good reason they don’t want to though. Ie the warrior discussion that occurred when crafting was announced

[peak agate]

Well actually probably wouldn't even bother with verse at that point

I mean the mythic weapons would still be 6 ilvls higher

[jolly sierra]

how much life do you have guys with full 489 gear?

[halcyon timber]

Yea but mY pResTigE aS a MythiC raidEr is SuperIor

[peak agate]

I have 2k under 900k

[peak agate]

Still is 6ilvls higher

[vocal surge]

anyone else doing half the dps

of other classes?

[jolly sierra]

u have 880k HP with 489 ilvl?

[halcyon timber]

Agreed @peak agate but you know how it goes

[peak agate]

Yeah around there. It's very close to 900k no gems or enchants

[halcyon timber]

Yep well the boys are, im not home atm but i imagine rogue isn’t too hot atm. Prob lots of pad damage going out though .

[jolly sierra]

huh the neck shield is fkn shit then

[halcyon timber]

Yep

[jolly sierra]

it would absorb like 160k with 489 ilvl

[halcyon timber]

Yep that’s like 1 tick of dots from a feral -:D

[jolly sierra]

= D

fine we still have battlemaster

[peak agate]

That's one kingsbane crit tick

[halcyon timber]

Bm all day

Kb should be strong

[vocal surge]

vs plate

I do 70 Crackshot

[jolly sierra]

very funny

[halcyon timber]

70k?

I dunno if that’s good or what bur they have 35% DR no ?

[jolly sierra]

im getting 2 crested daggers for next season

[halcyon timber]

Phys DR

[vocal surge]

That's like tickling damage

to a near 1M hp pool

[halcyon timber]

Rets prob have highest DR due to sanctified plates talent

[vocal surge]

It was against a warrior

[halcyon timber]

Didn’t know if it was 1 hit of 4 or something

[vocal surge]

against a Shaman and a healer (MW Monk)

I couldn't budge their hp pools

[halcyon timber]

Jeeze

[vocal surge]

the shammy on the other hand?

"Oh a fly." Zaps and lava bursts me down with no effort

[halcyon timber]

Makes sense

[vocal surge]

It feels weird

Because before Verdant Gladiator

I was able to ~100k damage on plate

and now its 70k

[jolly sierra]

add versa dmg

[vocal surge]

The math does not add up at all

[halcyon timber]

Hm

[jolly sierra]

u need to add versa + armor too, right?

[stoic spruce]

Outlaw needs find weakness back

[halcyon timber]

That’s what GS serving as, old revealing strike

[uneven grove]

lock, MM hunter, resto druid

beyond broken

[quaint cedar]

Oh hey Pajcsi, I was just in your BG

Yeah lock seems absurdly broken

So is mage btw

[halcyon timber]

Mop ssn 1 for rogues

Is what this is

Then we were tuned and kicked faces in

[uneven grove]

yeah, funny how assa got gutted insta, it seems mediocre tbh

[quaint cedar]

Also warrior takes 0 damage it seems

[uneven grove]

at least in a 0 dampening environment

[vocal surge]

me attacking uncontested

[quaint cedar]

They are always quick with the rogue nerfs

[vocal surge]

5.5 M

[quaint cedar]

I just had 19 mil as outlaw

Was a bit of base sitting and team fighting

[jolly sierra]

told those guys in forums we need more defensives

[quaint cedar]

It seems really inconsistant right now

Like the more locks the enemy team has the more my damage decreases lmao

[halcyon timber]

F more defense, defense doesn’t matter if we aren’t nuking people and burning down their house

[uneven grove]

why? 2 feints is broken, and we have full immine cloak, vanish, evasion

@quaint cedar i actually like what they did to the EotS format

[halcyon timber]

Wouldn’t say feint is broken

We just turn to mail armor for 6 sec

[quaint cedar]

Same. Definitely miles better than the non-RBG version

[halcyon timber]

Its solid as is but we don’t need to be sturdy af

[quaint cedar]

I'm still trying to decide how I feel about the regular base maps like arathi, deepwind, etc.

It's weird that once you fully capture a base you can just ditch it

[uneven grove]

i am on kotmogu rn

let's see

[quaint cedar]

Guess that's nice though that someone doesn't get stuck sitting forever

oh me too

bet we're fighting each other again lol

[halcyon timber]

They said they wanted to knock the base sitting which is good

[uneven grove]

are u kleever? 😄

[halcyon timber]

The alternating bases thing is cool too

[uneven grove]

or taliriaah?

[quaint cedar]

Yes 🙂

Kleever

[jolly sierra]

oh shit that was the same argument than my healer said days ago

is not enough

will repeat

[halcyon timber]

Rogues avoid damage, we don’t soak it

Feint is to help , not to trade and bang

Same premise w recuperate bsck in the day

[jolly sierra]

u need more tools to avoid being permatrained

else wont be ask for more stuff

sub have another vanish + more self healing

outlaw more stamina + leech

what do we have?

[halcyon timber]

Veil and second feint with an upgraded deadened nerves was their response

Yeah because we always had preparation and thats how the decided to give us that.

Cant convince them to give old elusivness to you guys

[jolly sierra]

in the cost of our versa talent + the crafted cloak

no way

[halcyon timber]

Rogue doesn’t stand toe to toe w plate anyway , we never have or you get mortal striked fir 60% hp like in wrath

[jolly sierra]

i know but will be still receive a very great amount of hits

[peak agate]

Non existent burst DAMAGE

[halcyon timber]

Same in gw2

[jolly sierra]

even if u dont wanna to

[uneven grove]

@quaint cedar bro this ret is ridiculous too xD

[halcyon timber]

Yeah we have to feint early and often

That was the reason they provided that

[vocal surge]

Yeah

It feels weird our damage overnight goes from yes

to "bruh, I dont even tickle and my damage went back and not forward"

[jolly sierra]

lets see when we have shuffle w blues

[halcyon timber]

Even if combat readiness came back it wouldn’t be a reason to sit and trade

[jolly sierra]

im 100% sure assa will be permatrained again

[quaint cedar]

rets are always nuts in BGs lol

[stoic spruce]

Oh is that why we have Evasion and Cloak?

[halcyon timber]

Clearly

[stoic spruce]

Ded gummit I read it wrong again

[jolly sierra]

huh

[stoic spruce]

I read "rogues don't avoid damage, we soak it"

[peak agate]

Assassination definitely soaks in

[jolly sierra]

yep

[peak agate]

Low key don't understand how I live some games.

[jolly sierra]

even if i run a lot hitting ppl im still dying fast in some games

[peak agate]

Praise the pillers because if they didn't exist I'd be fucked.

You don't do damage fast enough for people to respect your damage and back off.

[surreal barn]

@uneven grove you dealt big dam in that one lol

[uneven grove]

yeah i am pumping

[quaint cedar]

Yeah assas seems to pump

ggs man

[uneven grove]

ggs

[quaint cedar]

I was close to you at least

[uneven grove]

sudden demise looks useless tho rn

[surreal barn]

Are you kleever

[quaint cedar]

Might have done more if I didn't get stuck carrying orbs 3 times

Yes

[surreal barn]

I popped you at the end there lol

[quaint cedar]

lmao yeah

sent me to the shadow realm

[surreal barn]

I feel so clunky without 2 set

Yuck

[uneven grove]

i am so not used to having shadow dance xD

[quaint cedar]

Took me a while to get used to it as outlaw back in 10.0

[halcyon timber]

Dance iron wire might be the jam

[quaint cedar]

I'm still trying to get the hang of playing with these new talents

I probably should be vanishing aggro more for the crackshot bursts

[uneven grove]

4 rogues in my kotmogu team xD

[peak agate]

We pumping on ptr sin friends? I know I pumped on the target dummy. How's that damage spread @uneven grove

[shadow creek]

What talents are you running? I’d like to try Sin out on the PTR

[peak agate]

If I was home I'd link you the talents friend. But I basically forgoe the AOE talents. I didn't think the the fake tod was worth it

[shadow creek]

No worries man, I’ll monkey around with it. I suck at Sin, but want to see how it stacks against live

[uneven grove]

XDD

[peak agate]

Lol look how low envenom is. I'm guessing this is due to to IC cleave?

[uneven grove]

this is kotmogu tho

just total headless shit

this should be not in the pool

[peak agate]

Ahhh ok

[uneven grove]

i am also spreading fat garrotes with shadow dance

i feel like for arena we will still use 4 posions

i am not sure, for BG the execute doesn't look promising so far

[peak agate]

🫡

Its cool on paper but the fact you have to 2.5x their health in damage make it meh

Assuming they have 900k HP. You need 225k in bleeds on them for it proc. Might as well just keep spamming mutilate at point

[jolly sierra]

i'll go to PTR someday to test the fang daggers, are highest crests already active there?

[quaint cedar]

Just got put into an EotS with a full caster enemy team and literally couldn't do anything at all

Wizards just dominating as per usual

[peak agate]

looks at the mage I haven't touched Must resist the urge for the path of least resistance.

[quaint cedar]

lol

if you're a caster you're eatin good

seems like that's all the broken shit is the ranged dps

shocker

I wonder if it's the secondary stat scaling getting out of control

[peak agate]

The fact double frost mage is a viable 2v2 comp makes me believe that statement.

The only time I've beaten double frost has been on my dk.

[uneven grove]

nope afaik

[uneven grove]

who would have guessed when casters already had 25% haste in season1

we have way too much secondary stats

casters with 40-50% haste in season3-4 will be crazy

[halcyon timber]

Inb4 they nerf pvp trinket bonus more and just cause more harm than good

“We found rogues were doing …”

[peak agate]

Casters like mage gain passive haste from all sources

[halcyon timber]

4% from tree right?

[peak agate]

It's a tree and frost has its own talent that gives them haste from all stats

[halcyon timber]

Oh dang

That is neat for them

[peak agate]

Fire has a similar talent but for crit

[jolly sierra]

fuck

[peak agate]

For some melee as well. On my 2 button fury war. I can get 60% haste with all the talents start multiplying. Same goes for FDK.

How's the new sprint PVP talent?

[stoic spruce]

New sprint pvp talent?

[uneven grove]

LET'S GOOOO

[peak agate]

Yeah they change maneuverability

[surreal barn]

2 deaths is the real win there

Feint is gonna get nerfed I feel

[stoic spruce]

What's the change?

[peak agate]

50% reduce cooldown and 50% duration so if you spec into all the sprint talents you have a 30 sec sprint

So 6 sec sprint. Baseline is 8 secs. Not a bad drawback

[shadow creek]

Sprint is on RB for Outlaw, so it's almost like a perma-sprint

[peak agate]

I hope they give some updates for the good ole ass rogue

Anyone using creeping venom?

I doubt it

[peak agate]

Small sample size but lul

[stoic spruce]

That's not new lol

But does outlaw even need it?

I guess for bgs it's pretty hot

[shadow creek]

It's useful in BGs, especially CTF, but there's no room for it...have to have Enduring Brawler, and Smoke Bomb has so much utility in BGs it's hard not to run that, and VoM is the only way to get rid of bleeds, sooo....

[peak agate]

Didn't it just break roots on live.

[shadow creek]

It used to, but they changed it to its current iteration a while ago on live

maybe 2 or 3 patches ago...?

[peak agate]

As you can see I never used that talent 😂

[shadow creek]

haha, yeah much better choices there, but it does have some niche uses, like being sticky to an EFC

Outlaw's toolkit is unmatched at griefing the EFC, just able to make their life hell

[peak agate]

I might use it more because 30 second sprint with 100% movement speed is valuable for running away

100% when 10.2 comes at least

[uneven grove]

man no dampening on these BGs sucks tho

every other DPS heal soo fcking much

[shadow creek]

https://media.giphy.com/media/UFzjusdrC1EOc/giphy.gif

[peak agate]

Sounds like it's time to buff wound poison

[shadow creek]

They'll buff it then gate it behind something wierd like Improved Ambush

[stoic spruce]

That changed in shadowlands

When they gave sub and assa disarm 🤮

[shadow creek]

Thanks, yeah, couldn't remember when they changed it, just knew it was a while ago

[peak agate]

I guess that's the last time I really use it lol

[jolly sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/fenneko-aggretsuko-laugh-ha-ha-ha-gif-11717134

ty for the gouge

[stoic spruce]

I wish I could slap through the internet

[shadow creek]

They gave away Outlaw's whole toolkit in DF

Still a little salty about it...

[peak agate]

Tbh fair it was once baseline

[stoic spruce]

And acrobatic strikes lol

[jolly sierra]

ye

[shadow creek]

AS hurts the most, it was so unique and thematic, then bam! everyone has it

[stoic spruce]

Sure but did sub, who was already a CC bot, need another CC?

[peak agate]

That's a design failure.

[jolly sierra]

acrobatic even affects panda gouge

and i can use that shit from back

for the filthy sub than opens on me

[stoic spruce]

Giving gouge to sub was a design failure

[peak agate]

Those filthy weeaboos

[peak agate]

Take away the cheap shot spam?

Because that's what really annoys me about sub

[jolly sierra]

still recall a sp which trinketed me a gouge in a long dampening match

then kidney him like 0.2s later cuz i would do it anyways (used gouge as a combo filler)

and died

was beautiful

[shadow creek]

Just tested Maneuverability on Outlaw, it pops every 8 seconds

[jolly sierra]

so u have sprints every 8s?

[shadow creek]

yes, with Improved Sprint

[peak agate]

That's hilarious. Keep it to yourself tho

I don't mind it since Outlaw is more annoying than big giga damage spec.

[shadow creek]

Outlaw is definitely a support spec in BGs on live; hopefully that'll change in 10.2

[peak agate]

Ya have to press so many buttons. Ya deserve some ease 😂

[shadow creek]

lol

[jolly sierra]

gotta go fast

[quaint cedar]

How has everyone's ptr BG experience been?
From what I saw as outlaw, seems like our damage is in a pretty decent spot overall. Some things never die or do way more damage than me, but it seems like those are mainly outliers. Crackshot is amazingly fun. Literally best thing that was ever added to outlaw.

We finally have burst now, though it's still nothing crazy compared to what 90% of classes can do

But it's really fun

Sustain damage looks like it could use a buff

And hitting into plate is weird. I felt ok-ish hitting into a ret pally but warriors seem to take 0 damage from me

[peak agate]

I can't comment because there's gonna be at least a month of testing. Plus, I'm assuming the most extreme wowheads are testing pvp stuff. So that might factor to why it seems you're not doing damage

The most diehard pvpers who play 8-10 hours a day are going to whip my ass.

And I'm sure that's the majority of the ptr

[uneven grove]

wow players are sad human beings, i got flamed on gilneas cus i didn't def the flag

on a fcking ptr test match

[wary spire]

I still don't get how with the 2 vanishes, a vanish cdr, better shadowsteps and vanish shield sub got yet another defensive talent with that healing thingy and assa got nada.

[stoic spruce]

I really think they should double down on the team-play playstyle of outlaw.

[wary spire]

And because of the pve boys nobody's talking about assa other than with "AOE IS GREAT NOW NO AOE IS WORSE NOW".

[stoic spruce]

Boarding Party and Take Your Cut is peak outlaw imo

[uneven grove]

tbh i fcking hate how sub is designed

wish we had vendetta, that was fun to kill other rogues with

but on my monk i just cut myself IRL when i see a sub rogue

[quaint cedar]

I had someone rage quit one of mine. People take these tests way too damn seriously

[wary spire]

Oh shit they buffed it.

[peak agate]

Ok how about vendetta stealth effect on DM as a PVP talent.

[halcyon timber]

Its the same

It isn’t buffed

[quaint cedar]

Yup. Went up against Supatease and Bigmoran on the same team together multiple teams

[wary spire]

Is a joke.

[halcyon timber]

Does good damage though , doesn’t need to be buffed

[peak agate]

Imma assume those are steamers. So ya, don't blame yourself it might just be a gap in skill. Which I'm not trying offend. I just know how a skill gap can skew things.

[quaint cedar]

No offense taken

[stoic spruce]

I melted supatease on my dk last season

[quaint cedar]

Yeah, Supatease is one of the AWC casters and Bigmoran I'm pretty sure is the guy that runs Skillcapped. Both are a billion times over multiglads and whatever

So way better than I'll ever be lol

[stoic spruce]

Greatest day ever

[quaint cedar]

Overall though I'd say that outlaw damage felt decent, maybe needs buffs, depends on where the overtuned classes end up (knowing blizzard, they will probably just release that way lol)

[quaint cedar]

Always satisfying to win against top players

I've beaten Pika a bunch of times in 2s but it was all just him playing viewer games with really bad players

I've also gotten really close to beating Nahj in a few outlaw mirror matches this season, but always just barely don't win

[uneven grove]

same, but I was with Supa xD on Eots there was another balance next too Bigmoran

I only sniped down SenseiWW cus i knew him from monk discord 😄

we lost ofc, 2 boomies annihilated the whole BG

[quaint cedar]

Oh yeah I know him too. Sensei is always testing stuff on ptr

haha yeah

range dps are melting faces

Even worse when it's R1s doing it lol

[peak agate]

@uneven grove what would you add as a sin pvp talent?

[uneven grove]

a 4th slot

[quaint cedar]

^^^

WTB more pvp talent slots pls blizz

[peak agate]

@quaint cedar how about you? What pvp talent would you add to outlaw?

[quaint cedar]

Other then a 4th slot?

Umm

[shadow creek]

Maybe something that changes Evasion into parry…something really satisfying about going toe to toe with a warrior and parrying everything

[quaint cedar]

Idk I'm tired so my creativity is basically 0 right now.

Honestly

Maybe just some kind of armor penetration ability

I guess not FW because that would be weird now that it's sub exclusive in their talent tree

[uneven grove]

i also tried 6 combo points assa, with +1 combo point on ambush and shadow dance

it is dope af

you actually have big dam in shadow dance and 2 ambush give you 6 combo points

[quaint cedar]

So idk just something that adds like a buff to BtE on yourself that makes X% of damage bypass armor. That would be the best thing for a new outlaw pvp talent imo

With FW gone it's easily our biggest weakness now

[shadow creek]

Giving Grappling Hook 2 charges would make for some interesting gameplay

[quaint cedar]

I'd enjoy that as a regular talent but not as a pvp talent

We're already stacked with options

Armor pen would be big and also you could probably talent out of it against leather and cloth

[shadow creek]

I’d like to see retractable hook replaced with 2 charges, much more interesting talent

[quaint cedar]

So it's not an auto pick like enduring brawler is

Yeah but baseline hook feels so damn slow now

[shadow creek]

Yeah lack of armor pen is 100% the biggest weakness with Outlaw in general

[quaint cedar]

They'd have to baseline the faster retract speed

[wary spire]

I wish we had our old manuvr back.

[shadow creek]

Yeah that’s what I mean, fold retractable hook into baseline hook and make the talent 2 charges

[quaint cedar]

Gotcha

Yeah that would be cool

Casters would whine I bet lol

[shadow creek]

Lol yeah, but that’s their factory setting, so…

[teal bridge]

guys, shadowmeld does not change the elvui bar, but i can cast ambush, etc

who knows how change the bar?

on elvui?

[potent pivot]

in a macro

[teal bridge]

do u know the macro?

like this?

[halcyon timber]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/shadowmeld-macros/697225 this might work, dunno just googled it rq

https://www.wowhead.com/forums/topic/shadowmeld-stealth-macro-56501

[teal bridge]

oh, you are casting stealth after shadowmeld!

[halcyon timber]

Not sure, im no night elf but i just looked that up rq to help with ideas

[peak agate]

These are interesting ideas. I thought one of ya would say a cannon ball knock back or something.

[stoic spruce]

That's cool

Let's have that instead

[shadow creek]

My greatest wish for PvP (and PvE, tbh) is to make Smoke Bomb baseline. Such an iconic rogue ability, so many uses

[peak agate]

But whatcha replacing it with?

[stoic spruce]

Not baseline but it deserves a pve talent

[halcyon timber]

Shroud

But bomb can be used to cheese boss position / mechanics and people will whine rogues are “mandatory” and that’s prob why we lost it in pve after mists

[peak agate]

Was it because people complained or making encounters work with smoke bomb in mind is difficult.

They don't have to listen to the complaining

[jovial dove]

I thought smoke bomb in pve was just DR inside the area, not what it is now

Like Darkness basically

[peak agate]

I quit during mop long ass delay between patches. So I have no idea. But if it did thats kind of funny.

[stoic spruce]

You can still target in the smoke bomb, you just miss.

Yeah idk

If smokebomb were a pve talent, it'd have to be reworked.

[peak agate]

Smoke bomb as is just prevents people from getting healed or damaged if they are not in the smoke bomb. For pve I can see a scenario where it's one mob healing another with big heal or preventing the raid taking heavy damage from range projectiles.

[stoic spruce]

Smoke bomb would also enable ignoring mechanics in raids

Which is based tbh

[peak agate]

If it keeps its short duration is it that bad? Just would need to prevent chaining them together. Not like they don't have abilities changed based on pvp/e.

[stoic spruce]

AMZ got nerfed for that exact reason and it was nowhere near as powerful as smokebomb

[peak agate]

Well I guess pve rogues kind stuck with shroud and that poison that reduces damage.

[idle root]

lmao UA dispell dmg buff

shit was dealing 50% of healers hp already

[shadow creek]

I’m okay with that tbh, Affliction needs good dispel protection to give them time to ramp damage

[stoic spruce]

But it was already good lol

[shadow creek]

Kinda rough when they spend 4-5 GCD applying dots and they get erased before they can tick

[stoic spruce]

Disintegrate also already melted

[peak agate]

My healer has ptds from dispelling UA he ask me if other locks have dots.

[shadow creek]

They buffed Oblivion, that shit does minimum 300k per hit

[peak agate]

Lol it do

It's also spamable

[stoic spruce]

I want to know the metrics they use to determine pvp tuning

[shadow creek]

Pretty sure a lot of dice are involved

[peak agate]

They use dnd dice?

[shadow creek]

Depends on the class…warriors and mages get D20s

[peak agate]

Warlocks with the luck rolls

[waxen meteor]

I clicked reverse magic once as DH

[shadow creek]

Rogues get D4s

[waxen meteor]

And died instantly lol

[shadow creek]

Lol

[waxen meteor]

It was a sure win skirmish

So I gave it a try

Then it’s a lost

[peak agate]

He laughed and teabagged your remains

[waxen meteor]

I think I had at least 80% hp ish

Stunned lock and wanted to try reverse before eye beam to close

Then I became the joke

In my mind I thought I would kill lock with lock dot as cool play

[peak agate]

I almost died on my monk the same way

I'm like haha bitch return your dots

[waxen meteor]

I knew it’s big dmg

But I didn’t know it’s like that

[peak agate]

Then I dropped to 10k hp and karma

And I never did that again 😭

[waxen meteor]

Funny thing is when you look at SP

Dispel just 3 seconds cc

[peak agate]

Yeah their dispel protection is trash

But their damage also has cast able abilities

Locks really just cast drain soul and malefic

And malefic is a short cast

[shadow creek]

Afflictions biggest challenge is dot/debuff maintenance while surviving long enough for their damage to ramp

[waxen meteor]

Yeah

And sometimes the teammates in solo doesn’t know

Sometimes it’s almost naturally like for a hunter you would scatter and root a side dps

But it means you clean up all dots

[shadow creek]

I stopped playing solo on my lock, just got slammed too much by double melee while my teammates would just do whatever

Afflic really needs coordinated play to be effective

[waxen meteor]

SP too, kinda depending on teammates to survive

[shadow creek]

Yeah agreed

[waxen meteor]

When you got double melee on your body 24/7 limited you can do

[peak agate]

Yeah man. I gave my story here the last solo shuffle I played it was just an affliction lock getting rammed. Only win was when i was peeling for him.

[waxen meteor]

When I got affli as teammate I just want to slow down and try to make game longer

No too much aggressive positioning offense

[vocal surge]

Not really no

I've seen Afflocks apply dots and walk in circles

no need to use Malefic Rupture when your DoTs can rot your enemy through a lot of DR

[shadow creek]

Yeah if afflic has breathing room they can really be dangerous

[peak agate]

Well isn't solo shuffle damping faster.

[shadow creek]

They are savage in RBGs with a good team

[vocal surge]

Dont even need breathing room, just a mortal coil is enough for their dot damage to overtake a rogue's HPS

and become fatal beyond 40% hp

[shadow creek]

Yeah coil into fear works nicely, especially if they trinket coil 🙂

[vocal surge]

Eridian watched me almost rot to death after killing an afflock at 40% hp

and I had to pop Crimson Vial, Recuperator, Vanish, Shadow Dance

and that was not enough

then had to resort to food items and healing pots

and that BARELY

and I really mean BARELY

[waxen meteor]

Some affli lock does quite crazy dmg

[vocal surge]

let me live

[waxen meteor]

And in fast pace

[vocal surge]

and that was only letting the afflock cast for a couple seconds

[waxen meteor]

And I have no clue even what skill to monitor

Like demo lock and dest lock burst are clear in a way

[shadow creek]

I almost always get immediately focused on my aff lock during teamfight in RBGs

[waxen meteor]

I was playing SP alt today and running into a lobby with aff lock and ww/ret

Really free cast game

And healer dispelled me way less often

[shadow creek]

Unholy/afflic is really good in RBGs with the dispel protection

[winged needle]

Quick question. Do I have to use echoing reprimand? I absolutely hate the ability. This is primarily a question for PvP.

[waxen meteor]

You use that for sin

Not for sub nowadays

[winged needle]

I apologize I should have specified. I play sin. How worse off DMG wise if I played with an alternative?

[waxen meteor]

But you don’t really have an alternative

You pick dance instead?

[winged needle]

I guess that would be the only other option. I just hate echoing reprimand. I guess I should just play sub instead.

[waxen meteor]

Hmm why

The skill isn’t very complicate isn’t it

Low energy cost skill that enables you to throw some low CP finishers

[winged needle]

It feels clunky to me. I don't know why. I'm just coming back to rogue from bfa and I'm not used to all the extra buttons I think.

[peak agate]

I don't use it. But I don't try in this game anymore. I generally just play for my enjoyment

I'm sure someone doesn't use it. Unless you're playing absolutely tippy top I don't think it matters

[winged needle]

I appreciate y'all's inputs. ❤️

[peak agate]

End of the day envenom hits like trash regardless. You get 10 percent more dot damage. That ain't really that much since they are small hits

[winged needle]

I'm 445 pvp ilvl and I feel like I tickle people as sin without CDs. Sub just deletes people.

[waxen meteor]

Don’t worry I came from panda version. 🤣🤣

[waxen meteor]

I guess you need to get familiar with the current game a bit

[peak agate]

You have to rot everyone on the team

[waxen meteor]

I don’t think sin’s big cd matters that much to your dmg

On the contrary sub burst is entirely based on cd

[peak agate]

Until kingsbane is easily available lul

[winged needle]

Shadow Dance feels like it's up a lot tho with sub while death mark and Exsanguiate have longer CDs. Extra cc as sub too. IDK maybe I'm just a boomer

[peak agate]

Well new exsang on the ptr is big improvement

[waxen meteor]

Just give them a try to play more games and get used to it

I don’t recommend drop EP for sin this season personally

[halcyon timber]

Its greatly reduced, its not up a lot. This is the closest we can get to old Subtlety and its great.

[waxen meteor]

@winged needle and it’s totally fine to try both sin and sub this season

Same gear basically

[winged needle]

I'll just have to play more sin and get used to the changes since BFA I guess. Sub is always a fall back.

[waxen meteor]

I did both myself

[halcyon timber]

Ptr rogues are good, just needs tuning

Positive tuning

Not nerfs and crap

[waxen meteor]

Dmg wise?

[halcyon timber]

Its ok dmg wise on ptr

Varies class to class

Tuning is likely to happen again this week coming up

[waxen meteor]

I didn’t play ptr

[peak agate]

I really like how assassination feels on the ptr

[waxen meteor]

But it feels sin is becoming melee affli + kidney

[halcyon timber]

Yeah im really happy on ptr. Live sucks

[waxen meteor]

The f direction overall

[halcyon timber]

Assassination has direct damage as nature on ptr

Ambush cranks

On all 3 of us rogues

[waxen meteor]

If ambush rocks then dance sin can probably work

Wait we lose armor bypass in general rogue tree

[peak agate]

most of our damage bypass armor anyway

[waxen meteor]

Ambush isn’t, right?

[peak agate]

reason why ambush slaps hard is because most of the damage is poison from the talent

they buffed vicious venoms

to 70% of spell damage and scales with our mastery

so the poison part is doing more than the physical

[waxen meteor]

[peak agate]

rupture now applies internal bleeding as well

its nerfed but i mean free dot

[waxen meteor]

Yeah love that

I didn’t read much 10.2 ptr stuff

Expecting a lot of change before live anyway

[peak agate]

Yes, I can't get too excited knowing that fact. I figured we get some updated pvp talents late in the ptr as well.

Damn, I didn't realize how bad ambush's damage is on live without modifiers.

[jolly sierra]

ye lol

so is now internal bleeding baked w rupture while talented?

good shit

[peak agate]

ptr dummy 4 million damage

now you have night stalker for more damaged garrote

prob halved in pvp

[peak agate]

Kingsbane seems to be a very finicky ability. That 300k is an exception to what I normally get (which is around 180k).

passive doesn't really do that much damage, even on the dungeon dummy its lower on the overall damage but that could be more tunning than anything

the current iteration is a lot smoother sometimes you are gaining more energy than losing due to things like DM

Also, this is in full PTR PVP gear so I have like 44% versatility but little mastery. It might look different when I have more control over my gear.

[sharp sierra]

Hey hey i was just wondering if there was an addon that would show me my coombo points underneath the enemy?

[uneven grove]

i like it, add another level of awareness to the gameplay

not just mindless button spamming

[uneven grove]

you can turn it on in the game options, and it will show combo points on your target's nameplate

*10%

[uneven grove]

for me it was 10-15% of my damage, i really liked it

yesterday in solo RBGs

[sharp sierra]

tyy

[jolly sierra]

heyo good afternoon or whatever u have there lol

[solid wharf]

Is assassination looking better than sub next patch?

[minor cape]

cant tell rn

[jolly sierra]

we need to wait

[wary spire]

No way if sub is not massively undertuned or assa massively overtuned, imho.

[uneven grove]

no chance imho

[halcyon timber]

• It can do well and has strengths and weaknesses like all of us rogues do.
• All rogues do the same damage in different ways on ptr. “Better” is a subjective finding that shouldn’t have an objective lense attached to it
• ex comparing ambushes. Does the same damage on all 3 rogues in different and unique ways.

[twin burrow]

which is the best?

[thick slate]

i fucking hate arms warriors

fucking braindead 0 iq apes

[proven kayak]

Idd

I really wanna try play one to see if it’s that easy

[stoic spruce]

Outlaw!

[solid wharf]

what tinker slot is good for pvp?

[jolly sierra]

i play warrior as alt and find arms easier than fury

and yeah, is disgustingly easy

can confirm is the peabrained class we all expect

[thick slate]

warrior mains are absolute fucking dogs

i hate that class

as rogue

[jolly sierra]

care mud is here

[thick slate]

i dont give a damn

[jolly sierra]

with warr

i usually leap at the rog

nothing personal but seems like its the intended playstyle

literal just peel him to death

[thick slate]

I think warrior's kit counters rogue in every literal way

[jolly sierra]

yep

[thick slate]

i hope 10.2 changes that

[jolly sierra]

with rog at least as assa its more manageable in 2s

but in shuffle

damn no way

[thick slate]

1 vanish charge feels so bad though

[jolly sierra]

yeah

but u can still dot, run and go healer

its something

the problem imo was in SL

when the fuckers had condemn and spear

the pressure was just inhuman

[thick slate]

carrying 0 xp incels to glad and now they think they're gods at pvp

[jolly sierra]

we had a guy here which reached 2k4 as warr in S1 and just trolled ppl

here in chat

[surreal barn]

How is warrior looking in 10.2 ptr?

Didn’t actually face one in solo bg yesterday

[jolly sierra]

how much time does take solo rbg?

to queue?

[surreal barn]

30 seconds lol

Instant queue

[jolly sierra]

oof

nice

[shadow creek]

Someone on the PTR forums just suggested adding 2% armor pen to each stack of Enduring Brawler. This is such a great idea. Solves a lot of problems.

[halcyon timber]

There are always counters as it should be. We use intelligence and have to outplay the brutes.

[halcyon timber]

Translation of kit to how the player makes use of it > all

[shadow creek]

My limited experience PvPing as Arms warrior is that it’s not necessarily easy, but it is very forgiving.

[stoic spruce]

I disagree tbh

parry? shadowstep kidney

bursting? disarm

dont have disarm? You have evasion and cloak

[shadow creek]

VoM is kinda important there

[halcyon timber]

The same can be said for a warrior

Its how you use your kit

Evasion and veil are countered by stormbolt and shockwave. Its timing, knowing when to do something instead of just using it.

[stoic spruce]

trinket

thats it

warrior is not complicated at all

[jolly sierra]

its funny to stun a rogue in veil ngl

[stoic spruce]

so true

[halcyon timber]

Same can be said about your kit. Warriors can do the same. There is a counter to everything.

[stoic spruce]

and its not warrior

[halcyon timber]

There are times when x is used, there are times when creating a gap is done. There is a way to fight everything as any class. Yes it is more difficult but that’s the point.

[stoic spruce]

there is a counter to everything but everyhting doesnt counter everything

which is what this Warr/rogue thing seems to be implying

[halcyon timber]

No there is a time to use stuff and time to not which forces cds or can save your own

Warrs are rogue counters since the beginning of time . Rogues use positioning and a more subtle tactic to win. We don’t fight head on

Not going to whoop a warrior in head on

[stoic spruce]

how can a class that has an evasion, cloak bubble, shadow step + kidney, gouge, disarm, poisons etc be countered by a class that has only bladestorm, impending victory, and parry?

[stoic spruce]

maybe not head on, but using everything at their disposal, warrior doesnt stand a chance.

[thick dagger]

War loses to Rogue everytime .. when you go into 2’s with a heals it changes things but a warrior vs a rogue same skill rogue wins every time

[stoic spruce]

idk where this warrior counters rogue came from but its extremely flawed

[halcyon timber]

Ok

Trading cds , make the rogue eff up and hes toast

Because warriors do since the beginning of time

Same way a feral can whoop anyone if they are good and actually use their kit

[halcyon timber]

There is no cloak bubble, fabricating stuff like the forums. Literally any aoe or re applications of dots and veil is scuffed or heaven forbid stepping 2 feet to the right and stabbing the rogue. Just cherry picking on that man

[stoic spruce]

of which warrior has next to none

[halcyon timber]

Whats the range on leap (serious question)

[stoic spruce]

30 yards

[halcyon timber]

Alrighty ty

[stoic spruce]

np

[halcyon timber]

What’s also the range on bolt

Because I honestly don’t know

[stoic spruce]

20 yards

[halcyon timber]

Seriously question not instigation

[stoic spruce]

had to look it up lol

[halcyon timber]

What also changed in the patch for you guys?

[stoic spruce]

10.2?