pvp

[vocal surge]

Sub and Sin both have 2 charge shadowstep

Outlaw has to smack their enemy to regain CDs for Grappling Hook, Blade Rush, and Shadowstep

[jolly sierra]

even w 2 charge shadowstep u need the dispell from manuv to move on

[vocal surge]

Yep

Veil of Midnight's PTR change is welcomed 1000%

because the current version of it is shitty

[jolly sierra]

dunno tf they smoked in the day they modified it

[vocal surge]

2 seconds of 100% dodge chance is nonexistent

[jolly sierra]

veil of midnight will be very good against warrs using spear

[vocal surge]

Aye

[jolly sierra]

first the dispell

then avoiding it

[vocal surge]

Not sure why they made Spear no longer counterable w. Cloak of Shadows

[jolly sierra]

by dodging

[vocal surge]

It technically did Arcane Damage which Cloak of Shadow should be able to immune

[jolly sierra]

maybe to fit physical dmg

[vocal surge]

Take Your Cut for Outlaw isn't that useful

[jolly sierra]

arcane has nonsense as a warr

[vocal surge]

not to mention you have to be within 15yds of someone when you pop it

[jolly sierra]

if they are magicless brutes

[vocal surge]

for 8s of Haste

but Haste is our worst stat rn

and not that many classes with haste are compatible with Outlaw

[jolly sierra]

thought was one of the best

and mastery the worse

damn everything changes so fast

[vocal surge]

Forgot mastery existed

lol

[jolly sierra]

kek

[vocal surge]

Its the last thing you think about as Outlaw, Mastery

[jolly sierra]

i think u need a mastery rework

[vocal surge]

My issue with Mastery

is that it was maybe usable in a pvp setting

only into melee matches

and when they removed Riposte from Evasion, you no longer punished people for hitting you

and mastery is devalued in PvP

[jolly sierra]

ah i recalled that

[vocal surge]

because now the only source is from procs

[minor cape]

i leveled a warlock 🫡

[jolly sierra]

was the 100% parry with comeback

[vocal surge]

Yep

It's a talent in the talent tree now

but its so out of the way for us

its a big loss to pick it up

[jolly sierra]

F

[jolly sierra]

next FOTM

[minor cape]

i wont play demo

[hasty holly]

march of the nametags

[minor cape]

i will do destro

🤪

[hasty holly]

play affliction to kneecap yourself

[vocal surge]

If your wondering where Riposte is on the Outlaw Tree lol

[minor cape]

i honestly am so glad that affliction is bad 🙂

[vocal surge]

its above Fatal Flourish, connected with Hit and Run

[minor cape]

it's boring, it's not cool to play against

[vocal surge]

There was a match I had in S3 in SL

[minor cape]

it's like when there is affliction noone is actually having fun

[hasty holly]

wotlk affliction > retail affliction

[vocal surge]

where this Afflock was killing me and my friend by running in circles

not even casting Malefic Rupture or anything but dots

and it took us a very long time to kill that lock

[minor cape]

is destro viable tho, i'm not sure

[vocal surge]

Nearly ran out of mana

[hasty holly]

destro is never not viable

[minor cape]

nice.

[hasty holly]

but it depends on if you’re peeled or not

[vocal surge]

Destro suffers from the micro CCs

[hasty holly]

if your team is shit then you just get zug zugged

[minor cape]

it's cool as hell tho

stylish

hehe

[vocal surge]

its heavily reliant on your team

[minor cape]

so is sub, guess it's my curse to play such classes

[hasty holly]

your best bet for FOTM is melee

(not rogues)

[vocal surge]

nah

Casters gonna be stronger

[hasty holly]

roll a ret

[minor cape]

lets see how ret will be after tuesday

[hasty holly]

embrace the crayon eating

[vocal surge]

I honestly think Blizzard nerfed the wrong part of Ret

They should've gone for the burst

[minor cape]

tbh i made a new character to have smth to do

[hasty holly]

i’d love them to gut hand of sacrifice

[vocal surge]

Because all the rets in the AWC

just zug zug

[minor cape]

while arena is unplayable

[hasty holly]

that one rogue dying in 2 seconds through defensives

[vocal surge]

Yep lol

[hasty holly]

very fair, very cool

[vocal surge]

Control is King is kinda meh as a talent

on Outlaw especially

[hasty holly]

i would just love a flat damage buff on rogue

[vocal surge]

Im surprised they haven't added Cheap Shot on Adrenaline Rush

[hasty holly]

idc about cc, i’d love to just be able to zug a little

[vocal surge]

If they're gonna nerf rogue CC

they should atleast add Cheap Shot to Outlaw's list of abilities affected by AR

since Cheap Shot feels awful to use when your in Adrenaline Rush

you use 1 cheap shot that takes up 2 abilities

for a measly 4 seconds

[hasty holly]

they need to add a visual cue

for ambush procs

i don’t remember what the talent name is

[vocal surge]

Audacity

[hasty holly]

but it’s weirdge that there’s no fanfare for a very important proc

[vocal surge]

Ye

You could just Combo Point count

[hasty holly]

but greenskin gets the same cue as fan the hammer for being a more mediocre proc imo

[vocal surge]

Dagger in the Dark rework has me worried ngl

It has potential to be nerfed into the ground on all 3 specs

Rework makes you deal 2% extra damage against targets within 12yds of you up to 6 stacks for 10 seconds.

2% doesn't sound like a lot till your CDs and procs align on opener

[hasty holly]

i would just like to have more competitive dps to other classes without needing to take 12 adderall

in order to have the necessary apm

[vocal surge]

Dismantle and the other disarms could just be baseline for all melees that need to talent into it

[hasty holly]

dismantle should be baseline

[vocal surge]

It doesn't make sense that our classes

[hasty holly]

imo

[vocal surge]

that literally sword fight or fight hand to hand combat

dont know how to disarm their opponent

[hasty holly]

blind is baseline

but dismantle is not?

lol

i guess blind is basically just picking up some sand

but surely

[vocal surge]

It genuinely breaks the Class Fantasy rule

[hasty holly]

considering outlaws are supposed to be duelists more or less

[vocal surge]

https://tenor.com/view/dale-gribble-king-of-the-hill-pocket-sand-take-that-in-your-face-gif-17599036

[hasty holly]

and assassination and subtlety supposed to be extremely competent

[hasty holly]

imagine a 30 yard throw of pocket sand

[vocal surge]

XD

[hasty holly]

15 yards is pretty long distance as it is

[halcyon timber]

agreed dude, it gets slammed constantly because of this nonsense. base abilities need to be doing their damage, not goofing off with gloomblade and other things that still don't do damage. Eviscerate just needs to crank and backstabs + ambush really need to shine again. We tried to combine all of what made us shine through the expansions, excluded any SL / azerite etc and came up with positionals being rewarding, several ways to have a stronger FW instead of cd stacking as well as different ways to make it competitive for pve while also creating new finishers and abilities that make sense.

• hard 1 min dance
• no gimmicks
• strong FW with abilities that are at the core of the kit feeling good. Tuning obviously would happen and such but we poured 40-60 hours of staying up late to make that whole thing happen and made a google doc as well as the visual tree.

[hasty holly]

even if it feels kinda bad sometimes

[hasty holly]

ok but eviscerate feels like an extremely lackluster combo spender

in classic, in retail, etc

[vocal surge]

I do think Find Weakness should be baseline for all 3 specs, it just makes sense

Duelist, they try to find an opening

[hasty holly]

find weakness could be tied to mastery for sub

[vocal surge]

Sin Rogues, their poisons should penetrate that weakness in the armor

[hasty holly]

considering they’re the stealth class

[vocal surge]

Sub Rogues, should just pierce that weakness

[hasty holly]

sub does benefit from having partial shadow damage

outlaw just suffers into armor

[halcyon timber]

agreed, that's why we tried to include it for all 3. We didn't release the Outlaw tree but we emphasized on more of that in their get up so that they can truly crush.

[vocal surge]

Yeee

[hasty holly]

i’d love to see grand melee reworked

i get there needs to be some element of rng but it fucking sucks to roll

[vocal surge]

Honestly, I want Outlaw to move away from RNG

Since its starting to get stale

[hasty holly]

i think there should also be a visual indicator of the current “stance”

[vocal surge]

Especially FTH

FTH breaks Outlaw

[hasty holly]

there’s a lack of clarity that’s present in most other classes

if all the RTB rolls were equally good then i could be fine with that level of rng

[vocal surge]

One way I would change Outlaw for both PvP and PvE

[hasty holly]

especially with weighted dice

[vocal surge]

is to introduce an alternative version of Feint

That essentially makes us take reduced damage for 1 second

but if we successfully mitigate an attack within that period

we gain a reward

[hasty holly]

imagine blade flurry

[vocal surge]

the other thing is to rework Killing Spree to be way more modern

[hasty holly]

but with a parry bonus and a counterattack mechanic

[vocal surge]

and not this CD I press

that feels like im hitting for 1/5 of Sinister Strike's damage

[hasty holly]

so that it’s not troll in non-aoe settings

[vocal surge]

True

[hasty holly]

it doesn’t make sense that outlaw would be competent enough to hit 5 enemies at once

but not be able to riposte a dumbfuck warrior overextending himself every time he hits us

[vocal surge]

The class design from Outlaw feels borrowed from Everquest 2

since there's a class called Swashbuckler in EQ2

that essentially does the same task as Outlaw

thematically similar as well

[hasty holly]

i mean they leaned really hard into the pirate shit

[vocal surge]

Ye

[hasty holly]

after bfa

[vocal surge]

I think we can peel away from the pirate theme w. Outlaw

[hasty holly]

i’d prefer a duelist class

that counters physical melee

[vocal surge]

since the design is already at its limit

Outlaw genuinely doesn't know what it wants to be

[hasty holly]

our class orbiting around rolling some fucking dice

[jolly sierra]

nah just bring back combat and merge some stuff w outlaw

everthing but the dice

fuck the dice

[hasty holly]

having some windwalker style comboing would be interesting

[vocal surge]

We:

1. Roll the Dice
2. Speed up to attack faster and make us restore energy?
3. Get an Adrenaline Rush every now and then to attack even faster and unlock GCD?

and on top of that

use Blade Flurry to hit all 5 targets at the same time

That doesn't make sense

[hasty holly]

i’m surprised that there’s no passive way to proc AR

[vocal surge]

There used to be Celerity

But that alone was BIS

[hasty holly]

balance gets a passive to give 12 seconds of celestial alignment

[vocal surge]

till S3 Set Bonus came in

[hasty holly]

mages get passive runes of power

[jolly sierra]

imo u need something isnt rng based

stacking buffs can work

[vocal surge]

I'd actually just make the Pirate related theme for Outlaw be a branch in the talent tree starting at the middle

[jolly sierra]

yeah, like warr w gladiator build

[vocal surge]

Talking about Gladiator Stance from WoD?

[jolly sierra]

yeh like a build

[dull bridge]

idea: brawler pvp talent augments rtb so that it always gives grand melee in addition to your regular roll (regular roll can't roll GM now). so we get:
a) some minuscule extra passive tankiness
b) don't have to spend cps and globals maintaining snd
c) reduces the variance of rtb since now you're rolling among 4 buffs

[jolly sierra]

not as a tree, but similar

like doing the last branch in the right just outlaw based

[hasty holly]

grand melee for parry chance

and eliminating the facing direction limitation for dodging too

[vocal surge]

Yeee

[hasty holly]

which would synergize with cloak of shadows

[vocal surge]

There is a rework

I do think that could fit with Outlaw's Class Fantasy

[hasty holly]

and evasion

[jolly sierra]

fuck class fantasy just make shit viable and keep the class essence

[vocal surge]

Mastery: Duelist
Type: Single Target
Damaging an enemy in combat marks them as your Adversary. You deal X% more damage to them and increase the effectiveness of your [Feint Replacement]'s damage effect by Y%. Stacks up to Z times.

[jolly sierra]

i wanna read in wayback wowpedia's combat rog page

seems like its wiped after legion

[vocal surge]

Yee

Old Combat Rogue had parry talents

alongside manual cast of riposte

and we had SND talents

Old Blade Flurry was like a major CD lol

in WotLK Classic

+20% attack speed for 15 seconds alongside the ability to hit a 2nd target

[halcyon timber]

Def need to let go of the Legion stuff that started this mess for rogues and return to actually being a rogue.

[vocal surge]

Yeah

Old Combat sounds like an actual Outlaw Rogue spec to me

than the current one

[jolly sierra]

what about checking old talent tree from pirate servers

and make suggestions based in it?

[halcyon timber]

yeah we combined a lot of that in our tree we made and used all of the old trees for reference

[tribal badger]

other then some gimmicky mace stun spec in wotlk, wasnt combat largely a meme in pvp for the entirety of the time it was called combat spec

sub or mut were nearly always the pvp specs when we had combat

[vocal surge]

Yeah

I can see why it was a meme spec in PvP back then

[tribal badger]

i would not look at it for design for pvp outlaw personally because it was never good

[vocal surge]

There wasn't a lot of talents that were impactful in PvP

and most of the big CDs

were just attack speed buffs

old Cata Trees were built different

you had Recuperate which costed Combo Points

[jolly sierra]

take some shit and adapt it for current times

remember than in legion talents were based in mop trees

like taking flurry and some old talents

[vocal surge]

Ye

It'll honestly take time to adapt the talents

into a modern talent tree

lmao

Revealing Strike

[halcyon timber]

didn't take them time to make ret ridiculous

[vocal surge]

Did 81% Weapon damage and increased the effectiveness of the next offensive finishing move by 35% on the target hit for 15s. Awards 1 combo point

[halcyon timber]

they literally have the blue print to make all 3 rogues solid, they instead gave us gimmicks that no one wanted

[tribal badger]

i mean it argue it took 75% of a season for them to make ret rediculious

ret suffered through being absolutely garbo in pvp past that first pvp nerf super early in the season

and then were that bad until 10.0.7

which is like 70% of the entire season

[vocal surge]

Ngl

One thing I do want Outlaw to be designed around

is Killing Spree

[tribal badger]

it def takes time

[halcyon timber]

Dance just needs to be a hard 1 min again and FW needs to be impactful

Yeah from a mature stand point yes it does

[vocal surge]

Restless Blades was also introduced in Cataclysm

[halcyon timber]

they said they were working on it and were quick to get that rolling at least, meanwhile us rogues - play with a class that actually does damage and you will win.

[vocal surge]

wait

for Rogues?

Lol

[halcyon timber]

Nope, for retribution I meant

[vocal surge]

Oh

That new Outlaw Mastery I created on the spot

didn't realize

is similar to Bandit's Guile

[halcyon timber]

Realz I believe said a while ago when he was in here said around this time there woulda been some rogue stuff and blades is going away in 11.0 and sorry af shadow techniques is down the line too but he didn't have any big news for us. (back in like feb / jan I think).

[vocal surge]

Bandit's Guile
"Sinister Strike and Revealing Strike abilities have a 100% chance to grant you an evolving insight into your opponent's defenses, increasing damage to that target by up to 30%. Opponents can adapt over time, negating this benefit, and striking a different opponent will begin the cycle anew"

Honestly

I kinda feel bad for RealZ

[halcyon timber]

I feel for em too, that's a lot of pressure

[vocal surge]

since he is kinda thrown in from what it feels like

and since the rogue specs are WAAAAAAAAAY

too gimmicky

it's hard to make room for improvements

[halcyon timber]

yeah we will remain like this till next expansion and reliant on others

[vocal surge]

Im honestly happy thou

[halcyon timber]

buffing doesn't help, our class is just built on gimmicks

[vocal surge]

that he adapted my idea on Thistle Tea

Which was inspired from Theotar's Tea

Because Thistle Tea alone w. energy was bad

[halcyon timber]

I dig it, yeah tea is ok but it also seems they ripped all energy regen from the 3 of us

[vocal surge]

Yeah

[halcyon timber]

energetic stabbing should def come back w recuperate though

think it was cata

[tribal badger]

i mean i think all 3 rogue specs have way more energy this expac then they usually do

the apms of all 3 specs went way up since last expac

[vocal surge]

Yea

[tribal badger]

only spec that got slower really is HO law from last seasons of slands law because its borrowed power was insane

but all 3 specs have more energy for pvp rn 🤷

just giving all 3 specs vigor for nearly free added a lot of resources in, then theres tea and such

[vocal surge]

That reminds me

[halcyon timber]

yeah vigor was always my fave anyway

[vocal surge]

You know what'd be good for talent tree design?

Spreadsheet

lol

[halcyon timber]

a tree filled with FW on it

[vocal surge]

XD

If I recall

There's a reason Smoke Bomb isn't allowed in PvE

and it's because it breaks boss encounters

[tribal badger]

i dont think most boss encounters cared about the LoS component of it back whe nwe had it

it was an aoe DR utility for rogues when we first got it (for pve)

but they decided they wanted to take that away so they just made it a pvp talent

[jolly sierra]

what happened in cata w smoke bomb?

[tribal badger]

it was a 10% dr to people standing in it iirc, whenever we first goti t

so it had actual pve usage

[ruby drift]

Idk, i would like to see sub be more of an enabler/utility/dd then the current design... Similar to ninja on ff

Subs entire relevance has been based off 100-0 in small stun windows and cc chains and its been bland af.

[jolly sierra]

think we need to research former specs incarnations from other xps

maybe from video footages

and pirate server guides

[tribal badger]

well that sorta is subs utility isnt it

controlling the entire enemy team then killing a single target in a short window

even historically but especially as we got more access to dance

[jolly sierra]

think assa is ok and doesnt need a rework

but sub and outlaw specially

[ruby drift]

Yes its been like that historically and its well past time for a change.

[tribal badger]

honestly the most changed spec since its spiritual origins is probably sin

[jolly sierra]

feels flawed af

[tribal badger]

right but what kind of utility would u want sub to be doing other then ccing the enemy team?

[vocal surge]

Who remembers when Sin had Shadow Blades

[tribal badger]

idk what other rogue utility we would be doing, we arent going to be healing or DRing allies

like a hybrid

[jolly sierra]

doing more dmg outside dance to keep pressure

[jolly sierra]

me, in cata till mop lol

fuck class fantasy

[ruby drift]

Haven't thought that far, but stuff like tricks of trade being relevant. Mass invis. Not being dependant on shadow dance.

[tribal badger]

more damage for all rogue specs i could def see

[jolly sierra]

compared to now, sure why not

[tribal badger]

if they are reducing control across the board rogue specs sorta need more damage to lean on

[jolly sierra]

a compensation

[ruby drift]

Like smoke bomb is a very cool ability, so is duel. Their personals are dog, and so is the self sustain.

[tribal badger]

i wouldnt mind pvp talents that buffed subs CC past the new nerfed values to really establish it as the cc spec tho

thats always been what it was

[hollow sundial]

We shouldn’t shy away from stunning, it allows us to go toe to toe with any other class in the game

[jolly sierra]

dude, we are the cc class by excellence, taking that from us is literal overkill

[tribal badger]

or talents like what mage got

[jolly sierra]

we are the pvp true class

[tribal badger]

that change one of our ccs functionally and make us get rewarded for using it well

[ruby drift]

Like ninja on ffx has alot of revolvement around shurikens and throwing weapons

Getting dmg modifiers for x seconds when they attack from behind

[tribal badger]

like a talent like "you do 10% more damage for each target suffering from one of your crowd controls" so you can get a big amp for cheap kidney blinding the enemy team

while hammering a dude

[ruby drift]

Having shadows that soak dmg

Currently, their isn't much in subs tool kit that makes you feel like you're a subtlety rogue apart from shadowy duel

[tribal badger]

i think rogues utility is always going to be CC/los stuff. i wouldnt mind seeing bomb/duel expanded or buffed for sure

id love to see talents that are based on disruption buffed, like enemy doing reduced damage out of a stun etc

[jolly sierra]

what about an aoe stun in CD?

[tribal badger]

make our cc still powerful even with shorter duration

[tribal badger]

tbh i thought about a talent that let outlaw blade flurry its cc

[vocal surge]

also

Imagine if Rogues could use bows

lol

there was a princess in our order hall that was a sub rogue

w. a bow

[ruby drift]

Preperation, deadly throw, even cheat death back in wotlk gave sub rogue way more of an identity then it currently has

[halcyon timber]

literally return us to cata / wod Subtlety and we are squared away.

[jolly sierra]

like in pre mop?

[halcyon timber]

ye would dig that. Just eviscerate smacking and backstab + hemo again. taking the positional advantages and packing everything into a dance isn't it man. Dance just needs to be dance again at 1 min cd. shidderblades can just be absorbed back into abilities. Bring in goremaw's if they insist us having a "big cd".

[tribal badger]

cata and wod sub were banger specs for sure

in both specs subs damage was just overtuned tho tbf

you had strong sustain and huge burst every minute with dance

[halcyon timber]

i'd give anything for just a modern Cata. Dance being dance and having SV up to help with any form of sustained. Please check out our form post further if you guys have a moment. My friend and I worked real hard on trying to modernize that feeling.

[vocal surge]

@halcyon timber What do you think of this for Outlaw's Feint replacement?

Counter
15 Second Cooldown
Increases your parry chance by 100% and area of effect damage reduction by 30% for 1 second. Upon successfully parrying an attack or mitigating an AOE effect, retaliate and deal X Physical Damage.

[halcyon timber]

I think that's pretty solid, would be subjective to tuning no matter what but def would help. we came up with a similar ability as well for Outlaw. We also made mastery change based on weapons used after consulting outlaw rogues about it and got rid of kek the bones.

[vocal surge]

What's the mastery change concept you had?

[halcyon timber]

Dagger version of Outlaw we gave armor penetration to and swords gained attack speed with additional effets to make sure outlaw just hit hard without relying on silly nonsense rng and such.

We made a "gunslinger" part of the ttree that we didn't release because it is WIP and we saw a bunch of rogue son the forums asking for things like that so we said why not.

[vocal surge]

Makes sense lol

I did also fantasize about outlaw being able to use a gun

[halcyon timber]

Adrenaline rush had talent upgrades to give cb pts during it's uptime and we made it benefit from all 3 sides of mastery disregarding weapon choice at that time.

yeah the outlaw gun build we came up with had moments of concealment and was really more of a 20 yard range effective class from talking to a bunch of outlaw kids but they seemed to like it. I'll reach out to my buddy and get more info as I'm not sure if we have that pushed out. School started for both of us so we are pretty busy w that.

[vocal surge]

Aye

I have work in a bit and college tomorrow

[halcyon timber]

yeah i've got to go make some food and get studying here in a few anyway ha

[vocal surge]

got a sheet for Outlaw btw that I can see?

[halcyon timber]

In the end of the day, rogue def needs work. Turn Subtlety back into WoD and we are squared away man. Assassination really is asking for less dots and more punch from envenom from what i've been reading and Outlaw we really just made them scuff people up.

Let me message my guy as he is the owner of the doc and i'll see if we did that write up to be shared. It took a lot of work to get all that done for the class tree rework and for the Subtlety specialization rework.

[vocal surge]

Pog

[jolly sierra]

im from eu so cant reply ur post

but i can give u some archives to check and have more ideas

[halcyon timber]

ah dang , what can we do to shift that around?

of course feel free to PM me all of that and I would really love that dude

I'm gonna step out for a smoke but i'll have my phone on me

[scarlet shell]

Realz has great ideas for rogues but he is restricted by management surely

[halcyon timber]

It's a WIP all around and things are subject to tuning but ultimately the concept was to return rogues to doing rogue sheet and get Subtlety to mimic WoD / Cata.
example is Ambush just being a punchy mf ability, Dispatch / Eviscerate / Envenom should just be cranking on their own and stuff like backstab especially since we made it COST more energy and give the positional bonus again as a fair trade with hemo to take it's rightful place again so we can actually slap people.

[scarlet shell]

Blizz has some strange way at looking at rogue as a whole

[ruby drift]

The first trees he released was pretty goated

Besides one or two mistakes

It’s so watered down now

[scarlet shell]

I remember a few assa idiots here bullying him about deathmark 💀

[ruby drift]

And changed so much during beta

[jolly sierra]

https://web.archive.org/web/20130807055440/http://wowpedia.org/Rogue

here, mop rog article for 5.4

[halcyon timber]

yeah send it all dude

[jolly sierra]

was thanks for realz we have SDB on assa, what a dicks

[rotund vapor]

Hi guys kinda new in PVP and also new with my rogue, I only played outlaw in PVE, im using assa right now in pVP, but i want to know how good is sub in PVP , I see they are good in PVE, so prolly wanna switch to use the same spec, What are the main differences between assa and sub in pVP

[halcyon timber]

Hi Taylor! Subtlety struggles with the nerfs and you are reliant on team mates to score kills while you are a gatorade water boy /girl for them and you spam your soon to be non existent CC while the real heros press W an entire match. We are filled with gimmicks and you are better off honestly not playing as a rogue until we get reworked in pvp.

[vocal surge]

^

Also we should actually design Combat to be an actual legit spec than the meme on that archived site lol

[jolly sierra]

https://web.archive.org/web/20111130083423/http://www.wowpedia.org/Rogue

cata one

[vocal surge]

"Combat rogues focus on consistent white (auto-attack) damage to provide sustained DPS. Rather than requiring stealth and relying on powerful openers, you can simply run up to most targets and quickly hack away at them. As such, Combat tends to be the best spec for fast leveling, since you can move quickly from one enemy to the next with very little downtime instead of trying to sneak up on enemies."

[halcyon timber]

yeah we called them Combat instead of Outlaw too.

[vocal surge]

OGs will remember Combat

[surreal barn]

The static 30% boost from vendetta was smoother than DM imo

[jolly sierra]

https://web.archive.org/web/20091227061242/http://www.wowwiki.com/Rogue

prime wotlk

[halcyon timber]

yeah DM is a gimmick honestly

[scarlet shell]

That reminds me, I have to sort out some transmogs for my outlaw

[jolly sierra]

i can search the talent trees too, but later tho

[halcyon timber]

yeah we based our talent trees for all 3 specs off of Cata / Wrath / Wod / Vanilla and looked into the damage of each ability too.

Our goal for hemo was to pretty much take over cruddy current backstab but be upgraded to slapping if you chose to do so. Backstab regained positional bonuses and costed more energy as a trade off in our tree but was made to effin slap people again.

[scarlet shell]

My vision of outlaw is a Captain that’s gonna cut through the enemy, enduring the bloodshed and no quartering

“This is my ship now”

[jolly sierra]

hmmm need something else?

[jolly sierra]

maybe pvp guides from end xps?

[scarlet shell]

Still I feel like sub and assa should be high damage low survivablity and outlaw be mid damage and high survivability.

[halcyon timber]

honestly not sure man, we just need the support. Everyone weighing in on it on that post would be sick. We just want Subtlety and all rogues to be able to just do their jobs without all this craziness.

[surreal barn]

Oh that is literally me in the photo

I miss it too 😂

[halcyon timber]

freakin grapes

[vocal surge]

Outlaw in the older versions of WoW use a combination of Parrying and Dodging

for survivability

[scarlet shell]

I love parry

Makes me feel like a duelist

[vocal surge]

and they had abilities to punish people with that get parried

[halcyon timber]

yeah my friend is afk atm but he will hit me back and i'll post stuff here for you to see dudes

[vocal surge]

Aye

also shout out to Guy

[surreal barn]

Riposte disarm was most fun skill and even pirate themed idk how tf they let that go

[vocal surge]

from the rogue reveal tree podcast

Infinite Shadow Dance go brrrr

Aye

[halcyon timber]

f dance spam , that's why the whole kit is scuffed up

back then you were like effff yeah boyyyyy. now you're like gotta dance to do anything meaningful for 6-8 sec.

[scarlet shell]

Dance is my burst window now

Which is bruh

Also gave Sepsis a go, not great

[surreal barn]

Like fishing to make them use disarm and anything else beforehand as well it isn’t fun.

[halcyon timber]

sepsis sucks

[vocal surge]

It does

Gets dispelled, there goes burst

[halcyon timber]

they can buff it all they want, just give back garrote even if it doesn't silence

[scarlet shell]

It throws me off constantly

[surreal barn]

I actually got sepsis to work

But you had to time it so the end of it went off INSIDE your duel window when you were doing your thing

Gave a little extra inside. Other than that just not worth

[halcyon timber]

yeah it blows dude, dance is not great. Playing DDR while some other class shoots lightning bolts out his butt for 80 that you had to build UP TO while stunning does not feel great and then we still prob don't get to hit him that hard anyway.

yeah just toss back in garrote and make rupture baseline so combat can have their bleed again too.

[scarlet shell]

Sepsis, as cool as the name is, just does not work with my outlaw kit

[halcyon timber]

can step inside a septic tank and feel the same way

rancid poo smell from a rusty piece of metal

[jolly sierra]

hope u are heard guys

this is the perfect opportunity for a rework

[halcyon timber]

I truly appreciate that, rogues need it. Subtlety has to get back to wod style for sure.

Completely cool for other classes to slap you for 60-120k constantly and then get blown up for 230k ele blasts from shaman and such but it is forbidden a rogue does backstabs for 35k baseline and eviscerates for 70k

[jolly sierra]

we need to ask them to fix cheat death too

is not possible to throw a dice and die by a 200k glacial pike bypassing it

[halcyon timber]

Yeah it has sucked since it was weakened. Same w vanishing abilities. People can meld stuff but we can vanish? Or all the stuff that finds you in stealth like divine toll

[surreal barn]

I’m thinking it gets triggered and the shards are enough to kill afterwards. Might be worth them making health adjust to a higher % after CD trigger

[halcyon timber]

If they told me, alright rogues.. we are redesigning you guys to slap people again and return to wod but you cannot login for 3 months. Id be like alright dude, cool w me .

[hasty holly]

holy shit guys!!!!! double ret again

wait it's the same team as yesterday

what's with the mirror matchup, it's so fucking boring

[harsh steppe]

same

[jolly sierra]

imo cheat needs to have a 1s inmunity after lethal hit and then absorb the dmg to secure it working

else would break like w the shards everytime

[harsh steppe]

oh SHITTTTT ASD;LFKJASD;LFKJASDL;KFJ

[jolly sierra]

gratz, that is huge

[dull bridge]

massive

[vocal surge]

[harsh steppe]

ahaha thanks guys 💕

[minor cape]

its 1800?

im not sure

i forgot rank names

anyways you going elite next season

😎

[wintry dew]

I believe 1200?

Combatant1 1000
Combatant2 1200
Challenger1 1400
Challenger2 1600
Rival1 1800 (at this point you will have full elite transmog)
Rival2 1950
Duelist 2100 (pvp illusion + back transmog)
Gladiator(elite) 2400 (title, tabard and elite weapon transmogs)

[copper maple]

Why did they even add rival 2? 1950 sticks out like a sore thumb

[naive plank]

so people can know you were ALMOST good enough for duelist 😄

[copper maple]

There's a 2k achiev for that

It's literally 1 solo shuffle win between them

[naive plank]

then I don't know. That was the best joke I could've come up with 😄

[icy gale]

Didn't they make a change mid SL that the elite transmog was split up across different ratings for different pieces?

And 1950 was the last one.

Thought it was a hold over from that.

[copper maple]

The whole set except cloak were a 1800 reward since BFA. Now I think it also gives you cloak.

[wintry dew]

Because of pvp Ilvl in shadowlands. The diference in pvp ilevel between brackets was getting too big so they added a layer to each bracket to help minimize that.
Nowadays it doesn't matter BCS pvp is the same for everyone

[copper maple]

Seems fair. I've only played the first season of SL, didn't know that.

[wintry dew]

It came later during ... S3? Can't recall but yes that was their idea

Pvp boosting was huge because glads had maximum ilevel possible while 1600/1800 were far behind them

[copper maple]

I did feel the gear difference quite often

[lapis igloo]

whats the best sin build for pvp atm guys?

[naive plank]

tears probably

[lapis igloo]

not ina good spot?

[wintry dew]

The good specs right now shut us off really hard

[naive plank]

I'm not the best in pvp by any stetch, but in every BG/Arena I have the feeling if I fuck up even the tiniest detail of my rotation/preparation for kill attempt, I have 0 chances to kill anyone

and calling this a "bad design" is gross underestimation

[wintry dew]

As a ret alt scrub for the past 2 weeks, the biggest difference i see is that i always have DMG. I always have defensives, i always nave a chance to kill. Meanwhile as a assa rogue, if i fuck up my dm, it's over for me. Besides that, if cloak/evasion on CD, I'm dead

[lapis igloo]

sin feels so much weakeer than when i last played it in Shadowlands

[glacial aurora]

I really like that sub rework posted yesterday I hope blizz does a full scale rework for sub in the future

[lapis igloo]

used to be able to really pressure people with vendetta up

[lapis igloo]

I missed this

is there a link?

[naive plank]

ye. same for sub. If I fuck up anything, my only chance is cloak/dwarf racial --> vanish and get the fuck out of there...

[naive plank]

I remember the times when people got chills to their bones knowing there is a rogue lurking around

now I feel like an elaborate target dummy with complex animations and the ability to move around

[lapis igloo]

😄

[naive plank]

not to mention I have no idea what to do with my life when I blow my CDs + dance + tech

cuz I'm useless for the next 1-2minutes

[glacial aurora]

Search for copium of a sun rogue or just scroll up till u see it

[lapis igloo]

Thank you. Interesting read. The button bloat and cool-down stacking isn’t a fun play style. He is absolutely correct about that, and the over reliance on non core spell damage modifiers. Wonder if blizz would actually listen though.

[glacial aurora]

I wish they would cause I really like the positional requirement stuff for sub I think that could be a unique mechanic that sub could explore

Also like the premed stuff

Would blizz listen? Lmao prolly not

[surreal barn]

The value of getting a restealth is lower than it has ever been too imo

I remember getting a re and feeling like oh you’re screwed now

[dull bridge]

it's also impossible, everybody and their mothers have a dot now

[keen dune]

If rogue is still bad next patch what alt are you all playing? I’m still playing rogue but probs something else too so I’m not sad

[naive plank]

I've always played mostly my rogue

leveled a DH alt

it's 1583198951389513 easier in both pve and pvp

and no button bloat

[waxen meteor]

but it's also boring tbh

DF is a lot more fun

but still a bit boring after a few of months

[surreal barn]

Still rogue.

[exotic dove]

Coming back to the game after a 3 month Hiatus. Going to push at least 2100 before season end. You guys still favor haste for assa? Probably just going to do assa until next season and I noticed people are running different stuff now.

[tribal badger]

think most run mastery heavy rn

haste isnt bad tho

[exotic dove]

I see. I didn't gear my Rogue full before my hiatus so I can just get mastery on the other pieces then or actually I can replace them eventually since there is no conquest cap

Thanks

[wind dock]

Hi guys, what is the best spec for casual player for solo shuffle ?

[surreal barn]

They can all be played casually tbh

Play which one you think has the most fun playstyle at the moment

[jolly sierra]

the best spec is ret paladin

[waxen meteor]

ret is dead tmr rigth?

i didn't read the entire patch note yet

[tribal badger]

unholy stonks rising tho

[waxen meteor]

unholy has been the farming target these weeks since ret new version

so they will become new ret

i see

[tribal badger]

honestly dks r still pretty tanky they r just a better target then ret

but unholy got some damage buffs

so we'll see where it ends up

[waxen meteor]

I see more frost these weeks than unholy

or similar

[jolly sierra]

dunno that will happen RN

but yeah, dk buffs are good af, cuz they didn't had any big nerf more than spellwarden removal

when will blizzard announce the tuning post AWC?

[nova hill]

Is there any good guide what i have to do as a rogue in RBG?
Eg how do i ninja a base etc

[lyric onyx]

been a while since i done one but you sap the defender and insta start capping.. if they dont have trink youll get the cap.. if they trinket, you blind em then you insta start capping and get it

[keen dune]

Stay invis the whole time. At higher ratings teams will be trying to target you and make decisions based off of your location, are you sitting, going for a cap, etc. on flag maps you harass the enemy fc non stop. Saps, blind, save smoke bomb for the kill

Keep in mind the sap/blind cap will not be possible later (Patch 10.1) but tbh often times in more coordinated teams I’ve always tried to get a cap with another person (usually a Druid)

It depends on how your team is doing in their team fight. If they’re losing it is up to u to carry. If they’re winning you can play safe and sit or go for a cap. Keep in mind the rogue on the other team is thinking about the same things.

If u need a visual I would just look for older rbg guides. Even if it’s an expac behind the play style is pretty similar

[nova hill]

Thanks for the tips

Why will sap/blind not work after 10.1?

So normally i would sap the defense, try to cap, he uses trinket, blind, cap, is that correct?

Is it smart to go sap/blind, wait until the deff use trinket, vanish, wait for DR to end (should end before Trinket works again), and than cap the base safe?

[tribal badger]

they reduced the duration of sap and blind so u cant get a full cap off over it anymore

[nova hill]

Fuck ok

Ps: should i go assa or sub or is both good for rbg?

[keen dune]

You can have success with both. I think assa is definitely better at fc maps cuz you are on that homie the whole game. Single target assassination kills with smoke bomb is your job.

Sub can pull off some crazy stuff with shadowy duel though

[keen dune]

You could do this but you risk the guy communicating to his team and causing someone to rotate in that span of time. Waiting for the DR might take too much time.

Communication is key for you as well. Tell your team what ur thinking and give Intel on why you can or can’t proceed with whatever play you want to make.

[nova hill]

Ok, thanks u guys very much

[deft meteor]

is rogue in a bad spot ? i'm rarely seeing any rogues in PvP atm

6 BGs in a row, and I've only seen 1 rogue in those games... similar situation in shuffle etc

[tribal badger]

idk rogue in random bgs is pretty meh

cant teamfight but doing roguey stuff doesnt have as much impact in unorganized bgs

especially so in epic bgs

but also not super strong rn yea

[deft meteor]

makes sense, teams are mostly ret palas and MM hunters

[hasty holly]

this isn't specifically for rogue but in general what the fuck do i do vs a mm hunter

a single aimed shot deals like half of my hp

[dull bridge]

line his damage ward his jungle

[tribal badger]

dont get hit by CD'd aimed shots

trueshot same cd as evasion

step him at last second to cancel cast

disarm

etc

MM does big damage if left alone but u should be all over him or lining

[waxen meteor]

Reading notes for patch tmr

Soul Reaper damage increased by 15% Unholy specialization only.

Lol, such adjustment is so bad

[dull bridge]

legit everybody hates that fucking spell

[waxen meteor]

Not about the spell itself, but It's almost guaranteed to be forgotten in next patch from developers

because some spell dmg is increased 15% only for 1 spec

as i said from beginning of the seasons, devs are just being lazy to add bunch of adjustment here and there

that's surely gonna fail after months

[tribal badger]

not as lazy as they usually are where they just dont tune period for the last several months of a tier/season

its a pve adjustment anyway, nobody plays that in pvp

[waxen meteor]

it's the overall concept

[scarlet shell]

you die.

[waxen meteor]

i think lots said it's better than previous expansions, last expansion i played was more like pandoria, so I am not able to judge

[scarlet shell]

and they have flare that reveals you bc why would it not

[waxen meteor]

but constant adjustment this season doesn't really make it much better

we are at last 3 weeks or so in s1

the tuning just become less and less countable

[tribal badger]

sure i mean this is a pve focused tuning thats probably not being compensated in pvp cause unholy isnt doing that well in pvp either

its pretty small number adjustments as well, probably just trying to bump up unholy since its not faring well in raid rn

[waxen meteor]

i mean doing a tuning constantly is great

[tribal badger]

i prefer constant small level adjustment over sweeping large changes once or twice a season tbh

[waxen meteor]

but adding a quick modifier that doesn't require thinking will only resolve an issue for 2 weeks

then you gotta do it again

again

again

again

then doing some modifiers on only certain spec of a class is even worse

[tribal badger]

how do you do it without adding a quick modifier

[waxen meteor]

then everytime you want to touch that skill again, god bless them to remember this spec only adjustment

like what wow is doing 10 years ago

You can adjust the formula and adjust other part of the overall design

[tribal badger]

overall design is not happening in tuning passes we get almost biweekly

overall design is something we get in content patches right

so thats off the table. they do do that. thats a completely seperate thing from this

[waxen meteor]

yeah then do that better

so you don't have to tune biweekly

[tribal badger]

adjusting formulas is basically just applying modifiers

but modifiers is faster for them so lets them tune more often

thats why they use the class aura to tune now a days

[waxen meteor]

yeah but at least you have a common baseline

that's the thing

you keep have one formula and 4354808 modifiers

you will 100% forget

[tribal badger]

forget but its written in the spelldata

they can see it

if you change the formula then you can forget because ur formula is new

[waxen meteor]

time has told us many times they forgot

[tribal badger]

but if they use modifiers they see the spelldata and then see a +15% aura applied to it

it seems like thats easier to remember code wise?

[waxen meteor]

no it doesn't

you have to know designers and coders are two classes irl

and in this case, i don't follow wow that much, the pve designer and pvp designer don't seem to talk as well

that means whenever you touch something

for one aspect

the other aspect got fucked

[tribal badger]

i mean that has always been the case but its been better this expac then it usually is

[waxen meteor]

whenever you want to really touch the skill, like touching the formula, then the modifiers need to be reviewed, but it didn't happen

[tribal badger]

thats why dks got buffs across the boards but one ability (one which is a large portion of their damage in pvp) specifically didnt get buffed in pvp combat

[waxen meteor]

that's what you have been saying, as i said, i don't think i am an expert or qualified to judge

but what i am saying is

better than 3/10 doesn't mean it's good

you gotta score higher

it had been worse is not a good reason

[tribal badger]

ok

i mean that stands for anytime in the games history

i just dont see any problem at all with aura tuning specific abilities, its been what theyve been doing for expansions now and its only improved how they can tune and how often they can tune

why is the 15% unholy specific? that i dont fully understand. i understand why its 15% to that specific ability tho

thats just talent tuning for an underutilized talent in pve (that sees no play in pvp)

[waxen meteor]

this mechanism won't work buddy

in the end you have to tear down everything and redo

[tribal badger]

its working better then what they did before, which was what you said just formula changing

i mean look at FW

they are nerfing it by just removing old modifiers from abilities that were pvp specific

to weaken some spells

[waxen meteor]

and it's clear that this game and business model doesn't support the team to review the design again

[tribal badger]

seems easy enough to do

[waxen meteor]

yeah of course but as you see, it's always, do something, ah, i forgot to see if it works well, then let's see what can be tuned

the overall thing is lack of effort and tests, then do a bondi

[tribal badger]

im not sure what that means

i mean how are they going to test things in pvp can we be honest

other then letting players playtest new specs on ptr

at least for pve they can sim things internally

how do you get accurate tuning data for pvp, other then making small tuning changes and watching the ladder to see how it impacts

[waxen meteor]

did it work?

[tribal badger]

did what work

none of this goes live until tomorrow

[waxen meteor]

this has nothing to do with next patch

this way of managing tuning

did it work well s1?

looking at awc

and looking at the last weeks of this channel

[tribal badger]

does it work 100% perfectly? no? has tuning been 100% perfect at any point in this entire history? no

ok but i think s1 was good until 10.0.7

and 10.0.7 was exactly what you said

instead of just doing aura tuning

they reworked a spec

and made it broken

and it broke the meta?

id rather have more aura tuning and less 10.0.7s if every time it happens a new spec is going to become the best most broken spec in ths history of the game

[waxen meteor]

small adjustments here and there will always lead to later fixes

that accumlates

and will break out later

like 10.0.7 or others

[tribal badger]

as opposed to large adjustments here or there which dont lead to later fixes?

i dont understand what the problem is with small steps

[waxen meteor]

or it could be 10.0.8 or whatever

[tribal badger]

you either take small ones or big ones

but at least small ones are less likely to catastrophically change the entire season meta

there is always going to be later fixes, tuning is a constant process and always has been. theyve never gotten tuning "perfect"

they gave ret large changes and its been nerfed what, 4 times since then? just to try to make it not totally polarize the entire meta

[waxen meteor]

nobody was talking about perfect

it's 2000 miles away from perfect imo

[tribal badger]

ok and i think this is a small step towards being better which is good, and id rather they take lots of little ones rather then big ones

because when they take big ones we get 10.0.7

[waxen meteor]

the approach is lack of vision and seeing whole picture

like tuning down some burst and increasing HP pool at same time etc.

anyway

i am not trying to argue

we can see how it goes

from my exp, such small adjustment without spending time to think about whole picture always leads to catastrophically result

[tribal badger]

i think large sweeping changes lead to catastrophic results far more often then very minor tuning passes

especially ones that are clearly keeping pvp in mind already

[waxen meteor]

small tunings are good, but not everytime there's an issue, add a small modifiers

it's taking an lazy approach

[tribal badger]

what is a small tuning you could do that isnt adding a modifier

i have yet to think of one

[waxen meteor]

i can understand this game isn't making much money and nobody has time to do that

everytime you want to change something, change it equally for pvp and pve, and probably think about the distribution between the skills.
you can even try to buff the counter spec/class to 'nerf' the overpeforming etc.

and now also because they lose confidence of maintaining such tuning, they are making more and more classes/specs equal

so they don't need to tune

for sure that's balanced, but then why do you have so many classes/spec

and look at some of the adjustments

Divine Protection now reduces damage taken by 10% in PvP Combat (was 20%).

you have a skill that does 10% dmg reduction

pffff

not saying anything about if ret is surviving too good or not, but this approach

i can't agree

[tribal badger]

its 20% because it gets increased by 10% via talents

so its going from 30% to 20%

[waxen meteor]

i know

[tribal badger]

a wall as strong as basically every mail spec on 25-50% shorter cd and usable during stuns

was a bit much

[waxen meteor]

then essentially we gonna ask ourselves why is there even a need to have such talent

etc.

[tribal badger]

because talent trees are designed to have "filler" talents by nature

thats always been the case

talents you'll always take that are boring and give basic functionality

they design half a dozen or so interesting talents that take power away from ur base kit to fill out the rest of the talents

thats always how the big talent trees were

they didnt need to come back but its 🤷

im agnostic to it

[waxen meteor]

similar thing

Avenging Wrath now increases damage and healing by 10% in PvP Combat (was 15%).
Avenging Wrath: Might now increases critical strike by 10% in PvP Combat (was 15%).

you reworked, and you basically made it like no skill

this can be addressed with more effort and in right way

the fundemental thing of ret rework was saying it survives bad, and too many skills that do nothing or similar thing

now it seems it's going back to old way

[tribal badger]

Or just bringing it in line with small survivability nerfs and burst nerfs

How would you address it in the right way other then reworking it again

What is the correct way to reduce rets survivability and wings burst in your eyes that they arent taking due to difficulty

[waxen meteor]

I am not sure if something is 'always' the case can serve as a reason.
Something is always like that doesn't mean it has been good, or at least it doesn't mean it cannot be improved, I am sure nobody loves WoW because there's some talents you just need to click passing by

[waxen meteor]

First, stay with a clear role you want ret to be, you can have probably 1 and half of good dmg, good utility or good survival, pick a role you think players will like and stay with the approach.
Second, make sure they are good at 1 or at most 2 of them, not all.
Third, keep the skills you reworked meaningful and adjust the baseline values; if it's getting overwhelmed remove the skill.

otherwise, it's just a matter of time to get back to old ret

[tribal badger]

Ok so basically rerework them

Which obviously isnt happening

So existing within the framework of we just got this ret how do you tune it correctly without reworking it because you just did and its too strong

[waxen meteor]

i dont know about pve side, but pvp side this is clearly bad project

what i said is far away from rework again

just tune the value of baseline skill values

and keep skills useful

so you won't create another bunch of skill you press for 10%

[tribal badger]

I mean the 3 steps you gave me are basically "design a new class" thats absolutely a rework

[waxen meteor]

I don't think so

[tribal badger]

And i agree new ret was a bad project in terms of pvp

It was complained about on ptr but still made it live

[waxen meteor]

if at this point, dev still doesn't know what they want for first, the target of the spec, then good luck

second is linked to first

3rd is just to apply modification on baseline level not on skill level

[tribal badger]

The target of the spec was to give them more tankiness more ranged and better damage profile

[waxen meteor]

becasue the skill is already making small impact

[tribal badger]

They ended up too tanky

So they nerf dr and healing in small amounts

Seems fine to me

[waxen meteor]

take out Divine Protection or make it not useful during stun, or take out the shield

easy

don't create wings for 10%

don't create another skill for 10%

[tribal badger]

Thats way more heavy handed then cutting it from 30 to 20%

[waxen meteor]

btw, the goal you claimed is different from what dev posted

[tribal badger]

If a 10% skill is still strong enough to force ur walls whats the issue?

[waxen meteor]

they said clearly ret is not surviving

[tribal badger]

Yes not surviving ergo they wanted it to be tankier does that not follow?

How do you solve a spec dying too easily

[hasty holly]

i’d love a damage nerf while in divine shield

like classic

30% reduced damage while under its effect

to force it to be a defensive cd instead of an offensive one

[tribal badger]

Thatd absolutely be reasonable i think

[hasty holly]

because currently it’s like

[tribal badger]

No use while stunned on wall, lower damage during bubble

[hasty holly]

“haha fuck you i’m unpunishable while i kill you”

[tribal badger]

Wasnt it 50% reduced damage and healing during classic

[hasty holly]

yes

[tribal badger]

It was when i played paladin anyway

[hasty holly]

just damage dealt

[tribal badger]

Way back in the day

[hasty holly]

and they also have a 50% reduced damage taken one

that does not affect damage output

so it’s two separate defensive cds

both inflicting forbearance of course

[tribal badger]

Didnt bop also used to prevent you from using physical abilities

Like melee attacking

[waxen meteor]

i would agree

[hasty holly]

i think that’s hand of protection

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Hand_of_Protection

immune to physical damage but unable to deal physical damage

[tribal badger]

Yes

Bop is hop

They renamed it in 4.0

[hasty holly]

divine protection is 50% less damage taken

i think they removed that one too

[tribal badger]

Thats their current wall

[hasty holly]

wait is hand of sacrifice literally just 30% less damage taken

on anyone

[tribal badger]

You take it and it cant be on urself but yes

[hasty holly]

ah

the tooltip misled me

[waxen meteor]

30% will be 20%

most of ret skills will become 20% or less

I feel longer CD can be also a good approach

[hasty holly]

isn't there a fuckload of other shit that rets talent into for hand of sac

[waxen meteor]

2

the 1 min CD one makes it OP

[tribal badger]

Just hand of sac and thr cd reduction

[waxen meteor]

but if ret becomes less tanky

that skill itself is no need to be nerfed

[tribal badger]

Making ret a viable kill target nerfs sac anyway tho

[hasty holly]

i thought there's a pvp talent that makes it a cc cleanse

[waxen meteor]

because when yourself is being targeted, who are you going to sacrifse for

[hasty holly]

lemme check

[tribal badger]

Yea big issue is ret has a massive toolkit of ally protections and was made so tanky it was never a good target itself

Yes sanct

45s cd stun fear cleanse

Also reduces further cc effects by 60% or something for a short window

[waxen meteor]

yeah so clearly the issue is RET having all of dmg/survival/utitly

[hasty holly]

oh they removed the counterplay from blessing of protection

so

[waxen meteor]

you basically agreed with what i said a bit ago

[hasty holly]

they also have the magic version in a pvp talent

[waxen meteor]

instead of making all of the skills do nothing

just cut one of the 3 legs

[tribal badger]

Thay ret was overtuned in every capacity? Ive alway agreed with that

[hasty holly]

it's weird that like

classic paladin had a lot of sacrifices for their spells

or tradeoffs

and they all got removed over time

very fun

[waxen meteor]

tbh with the name of ret paladin, it makes sense to have more utility

and some good survival (it's also plate)

they can stay with lower end dmg and mobility

some range is good approach

they keep tuning about every aspect of dmg/survival/utility

not picking 1 to nerf

ret will be dead again

[hasty holly]

i would accept a glass cannon ret spec as well

big damage and decent utility but garbage survivability

[waxen meteor]

i don't like the lore, but it's good

at least playble

the problem is if they keep tuning down all 3 aspects of ret

then you will end up with a spec that does nothing

[hasty holly]

good

[tribal badger]

Nah ret will be fine

[hasty holly]

it'll be fine

[tribal badger]

Cause they r taking babysteps

[hasty holly]

frustratingly yes

[tribal badger]

Rets still doing top damage in every arena

Still tanky but a viable kill target again

[hasty holly]

healer buffs

[tribal badger]

And most of their ally utility didnt get touched

[hasty holly]

would also be nice

not rshams or fistweaving

holy is like

[tribal badger]

They still have sac sanct freedom bop loh spellbop etc

[hasty holly]

absolute dogwater currently

both holys

[waxen meteor]

holy got some decent buff

[tribal badger]

Their group supports still super potent

[waxen meteor]

this week

[hasty holly]

i think holy pal is suffering because ret paladin is so present

negative synergy

[waxen meteor]

and ret pal really likes to kill holy pal

[hasty holly]

not only managing your forbearances

but you got another motherfucker applying them as well

[tribal badger]

Hpal is just a bad fw

[hasty holly]

idk i'd like to play solo shuffle but idk what class i want to play atm

[tribal badger]

Missing the output and mobility

[hasty holly]

they also have to manage mana

[tribal badger]

And the non meleehealer variant of ret is just undertuned af

In both aspects of the game

Yup

[hasty holly]

and better healers have similar or better mana

disc is doing okay

[ruby drift]

15% x 0 = 0

[waxen meteor]

Hpal also has no survival skill

just one

and bubble

that's it

[ruby drift]

Holy shock crits for like 20k and wog for like 40k

15% on those isn’t decent buffs lol

[waxen meteor]

Word of Glory healing increased by 15% in PvP Combat.
Holy Shock healing increased by 30% in PvP Combat (was 15%).

there are two

I mean holy shock is still one of the main skills for hpal

15% buff is good

[ruby drift]

And it heals for 20k

Lol like wut??

[waxen meteor]

well it's main skill to collect paladin CP

[ruby drift]

Hpal still f tier

[hasty holly]

should i play my mage or my spriest

[ruby drift]

Mage

[waxen meteor]

both are okay but differently play style

[hasty holly]

i'll respec to frost i think

[waxen meteor]

i guess more depends on which you plike

[hasty holly]

i prefer arcane for pvp

but it's cbt into non-casters

try not to get kicked with one magic school challenge(impossible)

[ruby drift]

Yeah play frost and play the frostbolt/slick ice build imo

[hasty holly]

when you hit the arcane surge though 👌

[ruby drift]

Tis pretty strong

And it’ll be reminiscent of arcane if you can stack slick ice during veins

[hasty holly]

is water elemental the meta currently or is it still lonely winter

[ruby drift]

Lonely

[hasty holly]

ah

it always sucks when i can't have a pet

25% damage though

[ruby drift]

Take brain freeze. Don’t take second charge of flurry and put that point into slick ice

[waxen meteor]

are you sure you are in rogue discord

[ruby drift]

And start smashing some 100k frost bolts

[hasty holly]

cloak of shadow buff waiting room

and also a ret nerf waiting room

i'm trying not to OTP outlaw

[waxen meteor]

that has anything to do with pet?

[hasty holly]

when the pet is an option i like to take the pet

[waxen meteor]

we don't have that option

[hasty holly]

they should give outlaws a parrot that shouts insults

"gwawk SKILL ISSUE!"

[waxen meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/sshh-quiet-be-quiet-silence-bird-gif-3500497

[vocal surge]

lol

[ruby drift]

On every kidney lol

[waxen meteor]

demo lock strategy, i love it

each kidney summons 12 birds, soon your screen sees nothing

[hasty holly]

i really need to fix my keybinds ugh

fuckin based

400k more damage than the next highest

[river pollen]

might be 1000th to spam this but damn

looking kinda for rogues in 10.1

[potent pivot]

Not looking very fun for the stealthy gang atm

But here’s hoping

[proven kayak]

I think taking break for 1month + and counting was a well timed decision

[harsh steppe]

so what does it mean if someone says to me "dude stop you're not a fucking assassin rogue you're a sub" lmao

[pale storm]

what was the context?

[harsh steppe]

idk tbh
finished the match then he said that then started cursing me out

[pale storm]

hard to tell with no context

just ignore and go next

[jolly sierra]

according to the footage u showed us weeks ago u stay a lot in combat without running

that is an assa thing

[harsh steppe]

ahh tyty

[jolly sierra]

sub usually runs to restealth to a pillar or land a potencial kill by baiting

cuz dmg outside dance is like u are healing the target instead dealing dmg

[waxen meteor]

[jolly sierra]

im watching wod sub in pvp

they were able to kill outside shadow dance lol

[tribal badger]

yes they had constant high pressure with just auto attacks

wod was probably the most pve sub ever was in pvp

[jolly sierra]

any incarnation u like the most?

im watching cata one now

[spring bough]

had one of the most epic finishes to blades edge on round 6. monk got yeeted off the bridge by a shaman and then the lock proceeded to do this

hit him with the 12k, 63k, 37k, 32k, 14k, 83k, 25k, 10k, and the 20k to end it lol

[glad mason]

Legit how do you get through low ranks with assa rogue? I feel like I have absolutely no say in the game because your teammates work against you most of the time

Just get focused down endlessly waiting for a time where they don't mess up your DRs

[ruby drift]

Just win with pve rotation

Double or triple dot and kill

[spring bough]

just have to go with the flow watch your teammate dps and if he swaps. cant really do anything about the DRs its going to happen all the time. just go with the flow and focus on how you can turn the tides

[jolly sierra]

use toptarget follow ur mate target and gouge a lot the healer

[ruby drift]

Imo it was easy to climb to 1800 for my rogue while at like 414-416 ilvl and no tier. Did it in like 10 lobbies or so

[jolly sierra]

dot both dps

[ruby drift]

Did it right before 10.7 dropped tho and haven’t logged my rogue since

[jolly sierra]

me neither more than skirmishes

[glad mason]

Yeah idk it's not the damage that's bothering me I'm just hella struggling to stay alive

Way more than with any of my other classes

[spring bough]

try to save evasion and cloak for a bit down the road let the healer handle any initial bursts unless you really need to pop them

[tribal badger]

thats tough

because rogue was objectively busted in wod and cata

obviously i enjoyed both iterations but

how much of it was design and how much of it was just being broken af

personally my favorite pve iteration was wod

not sure it was exactly healthy for the game that sub just killed u in dance and also did unhealable pressure outside dances in wod tho

[glad mason]

I really am but often the PS/barrier/earthen or whatever will just not come down until like 20%-15% hp at which point I'm too uncomfortable to not use one

Idk I guess I just have to throw a few more games at it

[jolly sierra]

the thing is imo sub needs more dmg outside dances

[tribal badger]

id agree

[jolly sierra]

to compensate the lack of heavy ccs

[tribal badger]

i mean sub could just use more damage period rn

[jolly sierra]

due to nerfs

[tribal badger]

putting it outside dances wouldnt be a bad place

[jolly sierra]

it becomes very hard to balance due to that

cuz most dmg is in burst windows, basically every nerf is rendering sub more useless tho

like the last one

felt like a coffin nail

[jolly sierra]

and blizz has been abnormally silent about rogues in pvp

[surreal barn]

You should be a force to be reckoned with during your 6 seconds. Right now it ain’t even that

At least while I’m behind the wheel lately

[waxen meteor]

We are comfortable with where rogues are at