#Déjà vu Feature - Currency sink

31 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

near belfry
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I love the idea, but the implementation just leaves me with a bitter taste.

As far as late game and players having unlocked everything there is to unlock is concerned, introducing a currency sink makes sense. Adding longevity, etc., sure.

The idea is amazing, I bet people would love to get a leg up and start with their favourite essence/memory (dunno about you but I sure do), but:

Paying 120 stardust for a rare memory, 350 stardust for a legendary essence or w/e to get a single use out of that currency just feels bad…

After testing it, it seems like a “pay once, use until change” kinda deal. That s a better than expected but seeing the upfront cost almost made me not even try it to begin with. Besides, who knows if I can use my selection without additional cost indefinitely, 10 more times, 1 more time…no clue.

Either way, the amount of stardust gained severely limits the player from interacting with this, fundamentally, very fun mechanic.

That being said:
For starters, if it is a “pay once, use until change” mechanic, I would make that very clear.

Also, from my perspective:
I think it would be neat to have additional Déjà vu slots.
Getting to choose and change the first slot for free at any time sounds fun to me.
Having some hard to earn achievements tied to unlocking additional slots seems entertaining to me.
At that point, getting to use extra slots for a stardust cost seems ok, tho I would still reduce it compared to what we got going now.

Besides, beating the audience guy in the white dream end w/e is hard enough to warrant a proper reward anyway imo, that f is on steroids.

quiet niche
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If you have a specific build in mind you can pretty much guarantee that you will make your stardust back.
That said the mechanic is only unlocked at level 50 because by that time you will know if guaranteeing a specific essence is worth that in a run for you.
I'm wondering if you just unlocked it too early from playing the demo?

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That said, I definitely agree it would help to give people notice they dont have to pay again after using it once for a certain period of time. I didn't know that either and it was a pleasant surprise to find out after using it

knotty kestrel
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There's already a description that states After spending Stardust, the Deja vu cost for this Memory/Essence is reduced by 100% for 24 hours.

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I don't think they need to make it anymore clear than that

near belfry
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lol ya, frankly, interacted with the the mechanic for the first time slightly tipsy and went on a rant. tho, not sure if i was blind or the UI doesnt give you the full picture on first interaction.

also, once you get the full discount (3 dots in this case) for a legendary essence it costs 150 stardust, instead of 350. at first glance i was butthurt cause you wont make the 350 back in one run, excluding mission gains. so anyway, the cost/gain balance seems alright after unlocking those discounts.

still:

  • more deja vu slots would be cool

  • first interaction cost seems steep enough for some people to shy away for longer than necessary. a free first use sounds fine.

  • paying for a 24h period makes you wanna make the most out of it and limits your options to try different starters. think it would be better if you just pay once to get x amount of uses instead of a time period. so you could switch whenever without losing out on the deal.

sturdy shale
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I just unlocked the system and I agree it is odd. I think it would be better if just taking a memory was free and then it cost stardust to permanently upgrade their starting level when taken this way. Why would I ever spend stardust at the start of a run to buy a level one memory that will most likely get tossed halfway though the first world? Like would you ever take level one ice shield? Of course not, but a level six one, that could be a potential build around.

Though honestly I would rather they take it further and instead you can buy a new effect. New ways to use each memory would be so awesome though that might be too much to ask. As for essences you could make it so they stay as buy ins but picking one does not take away your memory choice.

Overall though being asked to take each memory/essence to the end of the game that many times is kinda insane no matter the system. There is way too much variance and if they ever add new content/DLC it would become even less likely to happen. You could keep running the same memory/essence over and over to max it out but that does not sound very fun. It's why the 24 hour thing is kinda silly. I want more variety in my run starts not less.

near belfry
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“…better if just taking a memory was free and then it cost stardust to permanently upgrade their starting level…”

  • Sounds fun but without strict limitations it would break difficulty balance soon enough. Also, considering restrictions in place, people have been asking for leaderboards, while that would mess things up there could simply be a switch to participate or not, disabling/enabling upgrades.

“Why would I ever spend stardust at the start of a run to buy a level one memory that will most likely get tossed halfway though the first world?”

  • Feels like people would jump you and point out how you can simply use legendary/unique stuff instead. Bet, but yea considering the current system a good chunk of essences and memories available might actually never be used by anyone, lol.

“…honestly I would rather they take it further and instead you can buy a new effect…”

  • Another difficulty balance issue. I d rather have them add more memories/essences and add a system to be able to select 10% or w/e of those to never show up during a run.

“Overall though being asked to take each memory/essence to the end of the game that many times is kinda insane no matter the system...”

  • Dunno, I mean we get 4 memories and 12 essences per run to upgrade. For perspective, that s a potential total of 160 discount upgrades on 10 successful runs. If you just play the game it stacks up pretty fast. Besides, you re quickly gonna finish the ones you use most anyway. Still dont like the 24h thing tho.
sturdy shale
# near belfry “…better if just taking a memory was free and then it cost stardust to permanent...

  1. My bad. I should of clarified that I said level 6 for a reason, that is the number of pips beneath a common memory. That is what I thought upgrade limit could be. From common to legendary 6,5,4,3 for upgraded starting level.

  2. That is why I suggested the level idea. While a level 6 ice shield might not be good enough on its own with some upgrades from the constellation you might be able to make a fun build with it.

  3. See I am not fan of this. I play games like this because I like the variety in runs. I think this system should be trying to get people to use stuff they normally wouldn't. Taking things out feels like it goes against the spirit of the genre. I think re-rolls being permanent unlocks would be a better fix for that issue.

  4. I'm little confused, your previous statement says you want to remove stuff from showing up. If you considered that as an issue that needs to be fixed, then doesn't that mean it is too hard to naturally find the stuff you want in a run to make sure you discount them? The devs added stars to make keeping your starting memories more enticing, so you are more likely then before only going to have 2 discountable memories at the end and it is hard to get 12 unique essences every run. Also I want to ask, do you play on nightmare? Doing this consistently on the hardest difficulty would be almost impossible for the average player. At the same time, if you just grind it out on easy then it just becomes a job don't you think?

  5. More of a general response to what you have said. You bring up balance a few times and I don't think it matters that much.There is always room for ways to modify the difficultly, just look at Hades heat system for example. Also this game is still very hard for most of the friends I have, even on normal. I think these meta systems should be fun first and balance second.

slim mountain
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I quite like the Deja Vu system.

It probably isn't healthy for the game for you to start with a build defining memory or essence every run but I do like that you can buy the option to temporarily. It makes the more specific/difficult achievements something you can aim for without getting bricked by RNG without it just being "I start every run OP".

The only thing I found kinda confusing was the selection/cost pay. It took me a sec to realize you pay the cost when you hit start and not somewhere else.

near belfry
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@spook

Yea I see that. At the same time, if you re gonna play an attack char you want embertail or whatever your favorite is, plenty of other stuff still comes down to rng.

@mei

Order by number, nice and tidy^^

1-2
Ah gotcha. Bet, sounds like a fun addition.

3
I mean, kinda agree but exclusion still has its place, hence my lowball suggestion of 10%. No idea how many memories/essences we got rn but it s probably about 90 each. Some feel extremely useless, so I d love being able to ban even just 5 each.

4
Kinda lost you, not sure what the main point is. Anyway, im not sticking to one difficulty exclusively, my solo completed nightmare run earlier today gave me 259 stardust if that s where you re going. Ofc you get more in higher difficulties but the difference feels negligible, should be more noticeable imo.

5
You re reaching ahead and basing your argument on what could be. Considering that, sure I agree, but concerning status quo it s too easy already, at least if you have a plan and don’t get super unlucky. Eitherway, I guess they might as well go wild with additions and simply give us a difficulty beyond nightmare.

fervent zodiac
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Joined the discord to flag this exact design challenge. I was excited to unlocking deja vu reading online it allows me to start a run with a certain memory/essence, I can finally try some different build ideas.

After seeing the 'rent for 24 hours' I was instantly turned off and closed the game.

There is already ALOT a stardust sink in the game and playtime required for mastery levels, constellation unlocks and upgrades, finding yet another sink at level 50 was quite simply a horrible feeling.

Please re-think this deja vu renting mechanic devs.

grand solar
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This entire mechanic was just so you can bring clemency/ paranoia/ divine faith in for the entirety of the day you’re playing and I don’t see the point of bringing other essences in

And get this, the entire 24 hours
It just wants you to play the game to utilise it fully but if I don’t I just lose out on earning back my stardust

And once it expires I’d have to pay for it

There is no incentive to bring ANY other just because you’re spending too much stardust for okay-subpar essences which really ticked me off

I wish it was an option where if you take Common/Rare/Epic/ Legendary/Unique
You’d start with a debuff or a challenge or a lucid dream multiplier etcetc

Instead of just “oop haha I’m taking your core character progression currencies” just for maybe 2-3 runs if you’re sane and only do 4/8 floors then pure white
Which for the most part “Generates” enough stardust if youre playing Deep Sleep but for a casual Nap player you’re just not getting any stardust enough for it

Even for Deep Sleep you’re getting just enough and you can cover an unlock for a constellation slot and thats about it

I personally like the feature just because it makes my early run for my 20-40 floor or above Nightmare runs wayy smoother.
I might just be caught in the bait haha, it felt essential for either 3 essences I just mentioned (mainly Clemency) to guarantee a long run/ healthier run compared to losing RNG and the run ultimately just because I didn’t have Clemency for sustain

quiet niche
# grand solar This entire mechanic was just so you can bring clemency/ paranoia/ divine faith ...

I've been bringing predation.
Bringing legendary essences is very expensive, you are right about that but it only costs me 90 for predation & Even 1 run i make that bad on nap difficulty.
Yes I am incentivised to play a higher difficulty but even on nap if I play for an hour I'll make back the cost & anything after that will be profit.

For longer runs, by the time you actually need clemency to survive you will have generated over 90 stardust (the cost for an upgraded epic essence)

slim mountain
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It seems intent is either as an expensive option to target your run or as a currency sink for people who maxed their trees. If there was no opportunity cost they'd have to rebalance the entire game around it at which point it would be nigh impossible to win on true random.

I'm fine with this as is. Frankly, it's impossible to balance the game around you being able to freely choose a skill or essence. If it wasn't stardust they'd have to severely restrict it some other way or it would invalidate the whole game basically.

Too many essences in particular can complete a build on their own. If you have to random them and a way to utilize them that's fine but if I can start a run with a specific hole already filled and built around on a char I can trivialize even nightmare.

near belfry
slim mountain
vague coral
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thats just not true at all

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you get 100% discount for 24h after paying once

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meaning, you will generate way more dust than you spend if you use the same item across multiple runs

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thats effectively a "free" pick on every run

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the game already has this

near belfry
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no idea what you re trying to get at spook.
the initial cost is steep but discounts are quickly unlocked, which makes it quite affordable. time gating hardly counts as a balancing imo, but that s debatable and not the point anyway. in this case tho, once the discounts are unlocked deja vu time gating essentially disappears, so it s neither here not there, really.

my main points are simply these:

  • paying for a 24h period incentivizes players to make the most out of it and limits options to try different starters. think it would be better if you just pay once to get x amount of uses instead of a time period. so you could switch whenever without losing out on the deal.

  • more deja vu slots would be cool. ofc, this would be a balancing issue cause it eliminates some rng and resource requirements, but it would be fun to use. would love to see that if, for example, they were to add a difficulty beyond nightmare or add proper rewards for 'negative' lucid dreams.

Mei had a neat idea for memory/essence upgrades linked to discount progression too

vague coral
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if anything i'd rather have 2-3 dejavu slots but instead of starting with them its guaranteed spawns on vendors.

near belfry
potent marlin
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Or even higher amounts of the devs want to gate that type of power

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Then make the second and third slots show up in vendors in worlds two and three. . So you don't access all the power at the start of a run

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Or even make the second and third slots for specifically diving deeper. Meaning it second and third dejavu slots on happen on second and third dives respectively

vague coral
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i personally think that the game is designed around one loop straight into the final fight, and anything beyond that is very volatile to balance / feel fun. Player power gets out of control and its just about wanting to see a bigger number.

I don't know if its feasible to acquire 2 or 3 preset memories through dejavu, but at the same time, you can do that normally without dejavu...you buy from shop, you drop them, so the runs happen naturally aswell.

I think that one dejavu item on shop per act is reasonable. Gold costs will balance rarities on its own. i don't really think the game needs a constant dust sink, especially when its not monetized around it.

slim mountain
# near belfry no idea what you re trying to get at spook. the initial cost is steep but discou...

No idea what you're trying to get at then.

Because you're complaining about the cost feeling bad but saying that with discounts and rental period the cost is negligible.

I agree that the costs are too low relative to the power that it offers you. I am also "getting at" the power that it offers you being impossible to balance against the default experience of the game. They will have to choose which one they want to balance toward and said balance will be broken if you play the other way.