I hope you don't add animal shows in pz2

[round oak]

I don't want to see seaworld style shows or bird shows. There is nothing educational about someone standing on a killer whale's head or a macaw riding a bicycle.

Also not a fan of swim with the dolphins or pet the bear cubs.

Hope you don't add any of this stuff!

[meager mountain]

Just wanted to say here that you’re thinking of more circus acts than actual animal enrichment and training sessions that are in accredited zoos.

Sea Lion and Bird shows are good for the animal for enrichment and never force an animal to perform a behavior it doesn’t want to. It’s all voluntary from the animal and helps them for when they need to do medical check ups.

[brazen nest]

Bird shows are not macaws doing unrealistic tricks they are pretty good enrichment for the birds. It allows them to free fly and socialize.

It is also voluntary and animals aren’t forced to do that behavior. Allowing birds to free fly for both guest and animal enrichment I think is great.

They also are monitored so its safe and non stressful for the birds

[mossy spear]

Bird shows actually are a good enrichment and give the birds an option to free fly. They have their history in falcony I believe. Not at all unethical

[brazen nest]

falconry btw actually helps with raptor conservation even historically.

[round oak]

I am okay with flying. I am not okay with this kind of stuff they used to do at parrot jungle before it became jungle friends

[meager mountain]

Yeah no. I don’t think anyone who plays planet zoo wants that.

[mossy spear]

To add: It is absolutely unlikely that Frontier would add things like pet the bear cub or anything of that matter. That is so far off from Frontiers approach, I am 100% sure we will never ever see those kind of stuff

[brazen nest]

no one was talking about roadside zoos and circus’s though.

that is actually objectively cruel. But if you look up an actual aza zoos bird shows it is generally free flight shows or ambassador bird shows.

[delicate star]

the Inside Look event at SeaWorld is an example of how animal educational sessions should be in Planet Zoo 2: guests sit around, staff talks about research, ecology, individual animals, husbandry demonstrations, etc

[shy yoke]

I don’t know, some animal shows have their merits IMHO. As a kid I used to visit a lot a conservation center for birds of prey (it was not a zoo, but you could visit it to support their work). They took care of those that were found injured due to accidents and the like. They had shows open to everyone where the birds were trained to hunt and other natural conducts that would assist them once freed. All those that were fully rehabilitated and capable were then freed back to nature. It was pretty cool to see them fly in open air next to you.

[brazen nest]

My local raptor center has done pretty much the same thing. Most of the bird showcased could never be released but were still trained to fly(the ones which still could) and hunt. Showcasing them while teaching people about the native raptor species

Like some like one of the barred owls has a damaged beak. She can still fly and what not but could never be released. Sadly when she was rescued after being hit by a car she had a brood patch. Meaning her offspring probably starved to death or didn’t hatch.

There is tiny screech owl who somehow is mostly fine other than being partially blind. Despite him being hit by a truck and somehow making it alive. Screech owls are so cute btw one once flew towards me when I was birding once.

like you hear them but rarely see them so it was a treat seeing one in the wild

but local raptor or bird rehab centers have awesome programs in giving animals a second chance

[meager mountain]

Where is this? Squam?

[brazen nest]

Secret Garden Birds and Bees

It is in Virginia

[lavish bloom]

agreed with you leaf! ❤️

[fleet dove]

I think educational types of shows could be a cool feature, though. nothing like seaword or circuses, things like that

[lavish bloom]

good idea simp

[glad minnow]

I would love to AZA type educational shows and interactions but definitely not roadside type things

[delicate star]

seaworld is aza accredited and doesn’t do theatrical shows anymore 😭 and even when they did it wasn’t anywhere close to a circus

[fleet dove]

yes, I know im just saying that when they did do shows for entertainment. I just don't think using animals for Entertainment is cool

[spring mural]

I think its fine if they dont force the animal to do anything

[delicate star]

i know, it’s just that putting “seaworld and circuses” make them look similar in treatment 😭😭

[fleet dove]

I was just using them as two different examples is all

[timid lava]

you can not like shows, but it cant be denied that they are beneficial to dolphins

[fleet dove]

what do you mean

[timid lava]

"Previous research has shown that bottlenose dolphins have significantly higher levels of behavioral diversity immediately following dolphin presentations and interaction programs [36]. These programs utilize positive reinforcement training which is thought to be a beneficial experience for the animals [39, 40]. In addition, these programs may provide interactions and aspects of play that are also thought to be beneficial to individual animals."

[fleet dove]

Yes, reinforcement training is very beneficial; however, in shows used for tricks, the training is usually treated a lot differently and is not beneficial

[timid lava]

That's not true though, SeaWorld shows and any other place with dolphins do use reinforcement training, and SeaWorld was apart of this study that the quote is from

[lavish bloom]

you have source for this?

[timid lava]

it got deleted

[timid lava]

search cetacean welfare study

seaworld was apart of the facilities in the study

[fleet dove]

I won't disagree that Reinforcement training and training for care is VERY beneficial, but trick training is usually the opposite

[timid lava]

when you think of this 'trick training' you're saying, what comes to mind? Are you thinking like, jumping through hoops? Because that doesnt happen

[lavish bloom]

not found if you can send link via dm? i like reading

[timid lava]

Sure

[fleet dove]

Im thinking that and other tricks like jumping for balls, waving to the crowd, breaching on land to pose. Any trick used as entertainment

[timid lava]

well, jumping for balls doesnt really happen either, unless they're playing with balls on their own time. breaching on land occurs but it isnt harmful, nowadays they even describe how they 'breach on land' (slideout) for vet examinations. How is training that harmful?

No one refers to them as tricks also

[fleet dove]

I have seen all of these tricks in person, so saying "they don't really happen" is not a valid argument. And the tricks themselves aren't usually what is harmful; a lot of times, the way they are trained is the harmful part, as well as the normalization of it. I understand as well that not all training is achieved through harmful ways, but it still normalizes the tricks for entertainment, which leads to more places wanting to follow causing harmful methods

[timid lava]

What harmful methods do they use to train animals for 'tricks' in an AZA accredited facility?

Also yeah Seaworld parks dont do those anymore

[fleet dove]

Have you watched the documentary Blackfish?

[fleet dove]

they do..

[timid lava]

I have

[timid lava]

I can show you video of any seaworld show today, and nothing with balls or hoops happens.

[fleet dove]

Then you should know that SeaWord even being AZA Accredited trained their animals by withholding food

[timid lava]

Blackfish is also classified as a thriller/drama because it is not a real documentary.

[fleet dove]

Right, so I am realizing that this is going nowhere. I am arguing with a wall. Have a good day

[timid lava]

Son 😭

not even blackfish says ts

Food deprevation doesn't work lmao

[fleet dove]

then you havent watched it, have a good day

[timid lava]

They say Sealand does, not seaworld

completely separate park that hasnt been open for years

i assume you hate all zoos then if you think AZA allows food depravation, something that doesnt even work

Blackfish is anti zoo propaganda. It is harmful to all zoos, from experience. It's not a real source for anything.

[fleet dove]

please do research and stop trying to argue with me

[timid lava]

Yeah, im sure you know way more about this than me, considering you watched a thriller journalist film made in 2013, when i literally work around animals all of the time

[meager mountain]

Blackfish was made years ago

Like when I was in middle school

Now I am Unc

[timid lava]

13 years ago

[shy yoke]

I’d not call that media product journalism. It’s effective communication of a different kind but definitely not journalism.

Anyway, there’re a good amount of actual academic research on the matter available.

[timid lava]

I think there are better sources for anti cetacean captivity.

[delicate star]

blackfish is the equivalent of megalodon in the middle of shark week

[timid lava]

For example the film is saying two different things at once, bases an entire segment off of 2 eyewitnesses who didnt know the difference between the killer whales

[delicate star]

fabricated and made for emotional impact

[timid lava]

Like being anti captivity is one thing but blackfish is actually a joke lmao

[fleet dove]

blackfish interviews SeaWorld workers btw

also I have read plenty of articles with similar information

[timid lava]

Cool like racist John Hargrove who worked for multiple companies for 30 years and only 'came out' about his experiences when he realized he could make a buck? And Jeff Ventre who was fired for kicking an otter?

[delicate star]

john hargrove; the one that’s racist and only chose the easier going whales to work with. never worked w tilikum

dean something something: kicked an otter and was immediately fired. never worked W orcas

jeff ventre: fired because broke safety protocols sticking his head inside an aggressive orca’s mouth (now i don’t remember who it was). barely worked w tilikum

[timid lava]

And mark simmons, who was pro seaworld even after he left seaworld, but blackfish made him look like an idiot who didnt know what he was talking about and twisted his words?

[timid lava]

Oh yeah that was dean

There are like, 100x more seaworld employees who left NOT saying seaworld abused animals, than ones who said they did to get some recognition

[fleet dove]

Id add some good links but this server wont allow it

[timid lava]

If you search "SeaWorld trainer interview" its ALL john hargrove lmao, it looks like there are tons that come to share their experiences but its literally just one dude

[delicate star]

and john hargrove was disliked by the marineland antibes orcas

[timid lava]

Kyle Kittleson's article, Issac Wadd's article

[fleet dove]

add me and ill send some links that back up my arguement

[delicate star]

especially Freya the matriarch and her son Valentin

[timid lava]

Also Dawn's family was literally denied seeing blackfish before its release because they were told "you wouldn't like it"

And dawn's family also condemned the movie after release

[glad minnow]

So most “trick” training is actually trainers taking natural behaviors and putting them on cue. And if it’s not a natural behavior it’s a behavior originally trained for husbandry and then used in a show context instead. I’m referring to AZA backed shows in this situation

[delicate star]

if it’s anything Ingrid Visser i immediately consider it misleading because she’s directly responsible por the passing of two orca calves

[fleet dove]

waving and spitting and jumping for balls is natural behavior??

[timid lava]

they didn't say "all" btw, also what's your point? It's abusive for them to perform behaviors that are 100% voluntary?

[fleet dove]

how exactly are they Voluntary?

[glad minnow]

Waving is occasionally seen as a play behavior, spitting is similar, jumping for a ball is a predation behavior just being used on a ball and not on prey

[timid lava]

How are they not? Food depravation isn't a thing. It hasnt been for years, SeaWorld in its entire existence barely used it

They're not only fed during shows, in fact, to change it up a bit, the reinforcement isnt always food.

I've literally seen the fish prep

Do you believe Blackfish over the AZA?

[glad minnow]

They choose to do the behavior, if they don’t nothing happens, it’s entirely based on being asked to do something

[timid lava]

In fact I've seen multiple shows where the orcas just refused to do the show and they just let them swim around and the trainers talked about their training.

[delicate star]

bc you literally cannot force a 12k pound animal to do anything

[honest solar]

Or this

Have animal demonstrations, some at protected contact walls

Then you can use them ala. ZT3

Like you have a chain link wall the keepers use to show the tigers and then you can do the same thing

[arctic osprey]

While Blackfish has some-but very little-proper information in it, Blackfish has been proven time and time again to be propaganda. It is also disrespectful to Dawn and her family.

[honest solar]

Oh yeah I hate when people treat Blackfish as the ultimate red pill

[delicate star]

it’s the blair witch project of animal docs

😭

[honest solar]

It's a big reason I don't trust when people cite documentaries

Though the worst are documentaries about food (Forks over Knives, Supersize Me, etc.)

[delicate star]

blackfish is spiritually supersize me

[honest solar]

back to the topic at hand

Animal presentations would be great to make the zoo feel alive

[arctic osprey]

i agree! i do hope theyre added in some form in the future. not in the base game, but dlc or something similar.

[honest solar]

Have a piece of wall that functions like those training walls at zoos

[round oak]

How do you see performances they did in the past where the trainers are getting tossed by the orcas or riding on their heads? There are videos of Shamu pow wow and shamu rock concert and those feel very circus like to me. Orca performing while there are fire dancers...that feels very circus like to me

[jagged lagoon]

yeah defo would like to see educational shows even if it was just a training or feeding show.

[delicate star]

yea the trainers were a bit like barbie lowkey in terms of doing EVERYTHING under the sun 😭 which in all fairness they do compete with disney and universal when it comes to entertainment; but that part of the past doesn't mean they were a circus altogether and doesn't mean they were any less serious about their efforts behind the scenes to do research on orcas, to rescue animals, to release animals, and to fund initiatives that did similar things, and most importantly, that didn't mean they mistreated the animals (everything they do there is voluntary). i criticize them A LOT trust me and i'm glad they realized they don't need alldat to show people how amazing these animals are, but that was a time where the general public didn't really care about animals so passionately like they do now, and this change reflects on how zoos act, including SeaWorld. they're not the Ringling Bros 😭

[last pollen]

SeaWorld didn't withhold food from their animals. Instead they fed them like normal before the training and then gave them a treat after doing a trick.

[last pollen]

They interviewed the wrong ones and misled them though.

[delicate star]

idk how i missed this but please find new sources 😭 SeaLAND withheld food, not SeaWORLD

anyway

now lets get back to the topic!!!

MAIN TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS POST

• theatrical animal shows are an unanimous no-no.

• instead, Educational Presentations - but more developed than animal talks. maybe the animals can come close to the assigned presentation area for a demonstration of natural behaviors or husbandry practices.

• more customizable seating areas - allow them to be placed on top of one another for bigger grandstands and add curved pieces like the RCT3 CS Stadium Set pictured.

• the inclusion of soak zones? places where guests that are hot can sit where they would probably get soaked and would help soothe their heat levels!

• FLIGHT SHOWS AND FALCONRY!!

• beyond the Educational Presentations, the expansion of the Educator's role where they also do** behind-the-scenes tours** where they go to pre-assigned Tour Stops and potentially interact with specific animals from a safe distance

MORE IDEASSS!!!

[round oak]

My problem with natural behavior presentations is stuff that is performance oriented often slips on even though it is billed as educational, so I am iffy on including natural behavior aquatic animal stuff

[delicate star]

if the animals are being stimulated in a good way and the guests are being taught to care about the animals that doesn't become a problem lowkey 😭

but i digress

[round oak]

It is things like this I have s problem with

It is advertised as an educational experience but then people end up touching and playing with the animals

[delicate star]

people will try and play with animals regardless so imo it's better for ppl to interact with them in a place where they're accostumed to humans than in the wild and be attacked, do i make sense 😭

when i did the dolphin swim and the killer whale up close tour they spoke about the MMPA and the dangers of interacting with wild cetaceans

and also its a videogame

people literally make conservation point farms

[honest solar]

Speaking of splash zones, it'd be funny if big cats, rhinos, and tapirs could hose everyone down in a torrent of wee

[last sun]

For me it kinda depends what would get count as "shows" in the first place.

Like in Germany I would say every single Zoo which has seals and/or Sea Lions does "shows" with them, but they are not called that. In fact it's usually just called "Feeding time", which is what they do, feed them, but while they do it they do introduce the animals, explain stuff about their care, about how the animals live in the wild etc. And yes, they let them do some Tricks, but they are no where near circus like.
They also show lots of medical Training and such.

I see no problems with that, it is basically just a keeper Talk, but also a way for the animals to exercise their mind and body, which is important for the well being of captive animals and it does educate the visitors.

Same is pretty much true for the Dolphins in the Zoos in Duisburg and Nürnberg. There Shows (which are offically called Presentation) are in my opinion pretty okay, there are also no Keepers in the water with them and Duisburg also dosen't use Music while Nürnberg as far as I know still uses some Background music, which I wish they wouldn't do, but it's not the worst.

Anyways, I think those kind of Shows would be totally okay for PZ2, but I also don't really need them.

More important would be medical Training in my opinion. I really think Frontier should include medical training to many of the species in Game. And if you wouldn't do it, the Animal would get very stressed and trying to flee when a vet approches and such. Since mediacl Training is really important for Zoo Animals in Real Life, not only cetaceans.
Like Elephants often have Trouble with their feet in captivity and need lots of foot care to heal or prevent it, for which they have to be trained.

So thats a thing I would really like to See in the game. Maybe even target training.

[delicate star]

i heard enough someone should make you a dev

[round oak]

Keeper talks, target training and feeding i am okay with. Swim with beluga and dolphins feels too much like pet the cubs to me which is why I am uncomfortable with presentations like dolphin swim

[round oak]

Those are some good ideas

[delicate star]

dolphin swims are not presentations 😭 they're a whole other can of worms

if anything theyre upcharge programs

during presentations trainers do swim w the animals but that's because they spend crazy amounts of time with each other so they do it more freely

[timid lava]

Do you think they should go out and harass wild dolphins instead? Also not sure what you mean by that last part. The entire point is to touch them. "Playing" with them I have no idea what you mean. In this specific tour you literally just touch their back for a few seconds and maybe throw them a fish, i've done it before. They tell you facts about the dolphins and the individual you're meeting, overall it's nice.

[timid lava]

I think the big difference between waterworks dolphin and orca shows and circus acts is that whale and dolphin shows, at least with this era of seaworld specifically, dont attempt to overly humanize them in a way that circuses would. The typical circus you think of in your mind, at least. For these shows, you're not looking down at the animals, laughing or poking fun at them like they're some toy to play with. Maybe I have lived with the difference long enough to where it's normal to me, but I really don't get how people equate the 2 things. Dolphin shows are way different than the circus environment, even with them playing with balls or rings, or trainers in the water with them.

[round oak]

I don't think people should go out and harass them in the wild. I would prefer it was just the trainers touching the animals. Healthy respect for nature

[timid lava]

These encounters are so people are encouraged to not go out and harass wild dolphins, so they get the experience of touching a dolphin (which is educational) and there is no negative part about it for the dolphin, unlike in the wild