Kestrel is far too overpowered

[fluid jolt]

Nah, it's not. It shouldn't be easy to fight a small ship in a bigger ship.

[native dagger]

No ship should be agile to the point of breaking the targeting system

And yet here we are

Kestrel is strong enough elsewhere to be fine with, say, cobra 5 level flight mechanics

When I say fine, I mean “meta defining”

As it stands, it overly centralizes pvp meta back to one ship, and further limits the effective types of weapons

After we just got some variety in that regard with py2, cobra 5, mandalay, Corsair

A small ship should not have comparable bulk to a medium, and yet there are two of them- and kestrel is the bulkier by far

[fluid jolt]

It's just a stress test of the targeting system that exposed an issue. Saying that makes it some ceiling of agility is just silly.

[native dagger]

Breaking the mechanics that have made the game fun for over a decade is not “just silly”

And fixing those mechanics after over a decade of brain drain and turnover is not likely easy

Compared to the common sense, fun solution of “tone down the new thrusters a bit”

The simple solution that allows the target audience to enjoy the ship while those shafted by it can at least try to fight back

[fluid jolt]

Nah, the fun solution is not whining about it and fixing the actual issue with targeting. As well as using more appropriate armaments.

[native dagger]

The fact it was released in such a state is an insult

[native dagger]

The actual issue is the thrusters- no other ship has this issue

And “simply fix the targeting issue” is a lot more complex then “turn the multipliers down on the thrusters”

And much more likely to break other things

[fluid jolt]

I'm not discussing complexity, only the appropriate action to take.

[native dagger]

The appropriate action is to nerf the game breaking thrusters

And discussing action without feasibility is useless

[latent osprey]

Im seeing people across discords asking if they have desync issues when going up against Kestrel. Lat/vert faster than netcode can keep up.

This thing moves beyond the capability of FDev ancient P2P system, yeah working as intended.

[native dagger]

If a move to a better, Fdev hosted server solution was feasible, that would be great

But that isn’t in the cards

[fluid jolt]

Is it impossible to kill a Kestrel? Does it have god mode?

[latent osprey]

Facetious reasoning, stick with the issues we do have

[nocturne kernel]

Practically, yeah. There's nothing that counters it - gimbals/turrets can't keep track of it, missiles can be dodged/outrun, fixed weapons might as well be firework launchers for all the ToT you're gonna get. It's the closest any ship has to god mode simply because its sheer agility means you can't hit it

[steep beacon]

p2p or fdev hosted, the tick rate is too low to handle the thrusters' agility. Even if it was centralized, the ship is too fast. Just centralizing the netcode is not enough, it needs a full rework.

EBR on World of Tanks has a similar agility issue, and WoT is not peer to peer.

Nerfing the Kestrel to make it bearable with the netcode we have is easier.

[wicked arrow]

With the arguments piling up, day 4 of fdev not approving or disproving the mk2 thrusters in regards of faoff pvp as working as intended

[dusk escarp]

Will there be "day 1234 of fdev not approving or disproving.."?

[wicked arrow]

Yes ty

Those thrusters are absolutely broken and needs attention from fdev. The minimum we should have is a communication from people here

[unkempt stone]

Hi everyone, thanks for sharing feedback on the Kestrel. We are collecting this and sharing with the dev team.

[dry pine]

... Wow

[native dagger]

Omg cool

[wicked arrow]

I'm without words ♥️

[dark geode]

some acknowledgement is finally here, which is nice

hope it actually leads to change

[supple roost]

about overbuffed Kestrel - best thing that fd can do with it without losing money on preorder of it - si to add that mk2 thrusters every size to every ship, may be with some challenge like tech broker in other way in pvp there are very small non dirty amount of builds that can destroy kestrel

[tough tangle]

How about

NO

It basically turns game flight model into a arcade..
Let alone someone who dosent have mk2 thrusters against someone who does.

[latent osprey]

Let me help you... 😆

With the arguments piling up, day one of fdev approving or disproving the mk2 thrusters in regards of faoff pvp as working as intended

[fluid jolt]

Restart the day count?

[dry pine]

It's not arcade. It's just spaceship now, not airplane with weak vertical and lateral thrusters. Adding them to all C5 ships will not only reduce Kestrel's powercreep, but also will make flight model harder and more engaging.

I don't see any "arcadisation" here.

It will literally start a new age, like engineers did.

[tough tangle]

yea just boost and change direction 5 times, basically differences between ship maneuverability being reduced to nothing when a large ship can do spins and 180s in 1-2s.

on a bloody undersized thrusters

[dry pine]

To all C5 ships. Not restricting it to size of thruster like with SCO is insane

[dry pine]

And i said it btw

Also, thrusters have their own agility multiplier from ship's mass, so they may be need to rebalance this masses for others C5 ships. If this is necessary

[dusk escarp]

Cmdrs! Looks like some from PR team may transfer our whines to game designer.

Let's talk about problem, not proposed solutions.

• Ship-specific uncompetively good thrusters in pvp in fa-off mode
• Ship-specific weapon dealing damage without taking resistances into account

[dry pine]

Not all of us have problems with this new weapons (because they aren't pacifiers), but yeah, thats why we are whining.

[rigid hill]

Making turrets track better could help future-proof the issue of "too agile ships"

Here's an idea. If a ship's heat sig is at max (or under the effect of emissive) have gimbal and turret weapons track perfectly, like the fixed aim assist

[karmic hornet]

Idk about like changing flight model

Current flight model already has very high skill ceiling and like there is just not enough pvpers for it to be worth it

Like you either make the game even harder to learn for new players at the very best or you just make the game worse (reticles always teleport and projectile weapons are useless)

Just like

Not enough pvpers to make raising the skill ceiling worth it

[dry pine]

Sorry, I translated it incorrectly from my language. I meant "more complex," not "harder". And from what I see it's not that hard tbh

I didnt saw that much of reticle teleportation in fights. yeah, it was fast, but stalling after boost is still here, and even on boost you can hit it with projectiles.

[native dagger]

I’ve seen plenty of the teleporting reticle

I’m all for other ships getting a buff- but kestrel as is? Not good for the game

[marsh owl]

I'm quite enjoying the Kestrel overall. I had no early access to it and bought it for ARX. But fwiw, I'd like to see a few changes. I've been doing combat for years, though I left the pvp arena many years ago. Here are my thoughts.

P-shocks.

• I would like to see more weapon up time before the overheat and a slightly reduced spread. I just enjoy firing them and would like to do more of that for the fun of it. In exchange, nerf their total per shot damage so they aren't any more effective than they are now.
• Additionally, I think they are just a bit too effective. So a general small damage nerf seems to be in order.
  Essentially, I think they need toned back a tiny bit and made so they can be fired more. More use, more fun. But need reduced max damage.

Mk2 thrusters

• I really love the new flight vectoring. Unlike the other ships where the main engines are forward facing only, which limits effective thrust vectors to mostly forward, these are gimbal mount. And I love how it flies. I think that needs to mostly stay the same.
• The new boost multiplier is too much. I like having the boost multi. But it's too significant. Especially with engineered thrusters. I feel it should be toned down to about 2/3 or 1/2 of what it is.
• With only a partially engineered distro, I can boost basically as much as I want. So I think the boost frequency needs reduced. Either make it cost more so the distro needs to recharge more, or cap how often it can boost. I prefer the additional distro draw as it encourages better pip management.

That's it. Overall I think it does need a bit of a nerf. But not at the cost of ruining its unique flight ability. Tone down the boost multi, make a boost use more distro.

[rigid hill]

Another way I'm reading this is. "There's not enough PvP-ers to care about breaking PvP balance by releasing a new ship"

Oh. My. God. PvP-ers now feel how us pro-thargoid people feel, lmao. Forgotten by the devs due to not having majority 🤣

[native dagger]

what do you mean “now”

I didn’t serve bravely in the War of Human Aggression for this

(against evil AXers of course)

[nocturne kernel]

Simply because it's you, I cannot tell if you're trolling

[void epoch]

arcady instant gratification. kestrel faon is point-and-go. Closes gap between skilled faoff vs faon flight for 99.9% of CMDRs.

[dry pine]

Now I need fa-on cmdr to test it myself

[void epoch]

Ok. I guess it is a separate discussion whether it was realistic, to begin with, to couple significant percentage of the momentum of a spaceship in the direction it is pointing at. That decision was made more than a decade ago.

But separately I cannot shoot kestrel ( mk2 thruster) with most fixed weapons if I cannot tell which way it is likely to go, even if it is correctly tuned, given its acceleration, agility and boost cycle.

It should have been a discussion involving the players who are most affected by this change, in addition to the distinguished members of the partnership program.

I could easily see myself enjoying mk2 thruster in hooning. Do I want to shoot it with PAs or start to have to use long range gimballed multis ? No.

[void epoch]

FDEV enabled combat effective orbiting in 'yaw-plane' for two new ships c5. mandy (and given their profiles and optional slots, relatively they have too many hitpoints). Kestrel takes it to next level. As far as I know other mediums cannot do this. Fine, now I can die to py2, bunch of corsair builds, c5, mandy, but at least I could shoot them in the fdl and practice faoff. Against kestrel mk2, I just 0-down go afk and have a smoke break.

[tough tangle]

Above average yaw used to be minor advantage of some older medium ships like Alliance/Fed line, but that's like 50% better at best, not 300%.

[tame meadow]

one can only dream

[austere valley]

btw gimballed multies are not able to keep with kestrel as it can just instantly accelerate into another vector as much as it likes per boost. Mk1 thrusters ships need to overcome inertia during boost so it's possible for the gimbals to track them

best solution is to remove mk2 thrusters from the game in order to keep the flight model we all enjoy for thousands of hours.

[neat lintel]

As much as this would be the healthiest option for the game long term (next new combat ship doesn't need to be even more absurd to compete enough to be marketable, other previously meta ships could actually hit the kestrel), I don't think this is a realistic ask. Toning it down a decent amount is a reasonable compromise.

[rigid hill]

Toning it down opens them to legal action for taking away something that was sold for irl money right?

People will argue they paid for the OP engines

[native dagger]

Taking it away does- toning it down I Don’t think is a solid enough case

They advertised as better thrusters than the norm- there’s plenty of wiggle room between current performance and old thrusters

[rigid hill]

I mean that's why gachas are so incredibly reluctant to nerf anything post-release

[steep beacon]

if the necessity of a nerf ("toning down") was to be considered, FDev would have to temporarily halt Kestrel sales to avoid further potential legal damage, should it be a refund-worthy change.

IMHO, they should make it a one-time exception for refundability and consider more scrutinized and longer pre-release testing for future specialized ships, in ALL supported gameplay aspects (be it PvE or PvP)

If the thrusters (and the special weapons totally ignoring resistances) are as intended, then I hope the partners that were permitted testing will be more inclined to call down upon such planned obsolescence of past released ships in future specialized ships as such powercreep in rapid succession is not healthy for the overall balance of the game, especially if it devalues past ARX purchases.

[magic wigeon]

There's no permitted testing, we get access as free advertising and we do feedback concerns to Frontier

[steep beacon]

Semantics. It's still pre-release access.

[void epoch]

1. Depending on degree of toning it down may help gimballed multis, still flush 875m/s PAs down the ... ? Or increase trajectory speed ?

2. I don't know how they advertised mk2 thrusters, but they can retain the priority on lateral/vertical thrusters instead of forward, still a new 'agile' product, no ?

3. Most important, FDEV, respectfully PLEASE INCLUDE more, top PVPers in alpha and beta testing of new ships.

[magic wigeon]

Then encourage the "top" pvp players to get into the partner program and then you will

I mean they'll get access to it early when it's mostly soldified what they are releasing outside a few caveats

[native dagger]

I know a guy who’s been angling for partner for a while now who would be perfect

cough geno garon cough

[void epoch]

Maybe plag bsec and whomever should sit down delegate some volunteers. Maybe the ship has sailed already, but if it hasn't, or just to avoid this in the future @austere valley ?

[raw apex]

No ! Read the EULA.

[magic wigeon]

I really hope Geno gets in soon

[rigid hill]

citation please, i ain't readin allat

[native dagger]

i thought you read it before playing game? 😰🥺🥴🫠😱

so did I, totally, trust

[austere valley]

At the moment it's like open beta and every pvp-er is against thrusters mk2.

by pvp-er I mean people doing organized rockfights and not gankers who kill newbies and highwake when pvp-ers pull them

[primal dirge]

Nobody is ever going to get a refund for anything game currency from any company unless it fraudulent credit card charges in error

Every EULA that exists does not allow that mess

[nocturne kernel]

Toning down the thrusters would be fantastic - just making the ship respect the flight model is all that's needed to balance the Kestrel

[steep beacon]

and making the special weapons deal 60% abs/20% kin/20% thm like PAs instead of 100% abs

otherwise, if kestrel and these weapons become the new meta, shield resistances become obsolete

[nocturne kernel]

True, that is also a needed fix

[rigid hill]

That one Louis Rossman expression about EULA's comes to mind lmao

[rigid hill]

You have to understand how incredibly small that demographic is, no matter how valid or representative (you think) it is.

Relevance to the devs is measured by quantity usually

[raw apex]

Yes, and the reason it's small is because of the learning curve of the game, coupled with the size of the game ie players are spread out and communicate through discord etc.
Fdev driving away a well established part of the playerbase, by introducing game-breaking physics is a rum move for sure. And it's not just pvpers who are upset. It's sold as a space sim for starters.
Have plenty non-pvper friends who don't like the new mentality of ' specialised ship for everything ' some of them have been elite fans for 40+ years. Pvpers just tend to be more focused on
ship handling than more passive activities, hence they're the most vocal about it.

[latent osprey]

Are you here anyway to contribute information to the devs on the Kestrel, or are you just here to debate others contributions? This isn't #general-chat

[dry pine]

If he disagrees with ideas of other contributors, he can write it here. Don't see any problem

I disagree with some of ideas, like completely removing new thrusters from the game and making new plasma 60/20/20

[latent osprey]

For sure, make a post saying that and the CM will see. Debating EULA and saying what you believe the devs are interested in is not on topic.

[dry pine]

I already said all of that before CM's message here, so I have no need to create another topic. Just summarized.

[latent osprey]

All good, its rare we get CM feedback. Trying to make their life easier should anything else be passed on. 🙏

[rigid hill]

I agree the Kestrel is overpowered, I'm just trying to temper expectations about what FDev's priorities are, based on my own experience with pro-thargoid feedback

[soft creek]

Looking at gankers.org I see plenty of Kestrels destroyed by Corsairs.

[nocturne kernel]

I saw one Kestrel being destroyed by a Corvette twice - pilot was an idiot. It's more about the top-mid end of players who can actually dodge instead of just joust

[soft creek]

No true Scotsman ...

[void epoch]

That, one less class 3 HP and 3 utility slots only. I can run a prismo build with without heatsinks using 4B scb rapid.

[high compass]

Is getting a headache from flying the kestrel a part of the experience

[earnest oak]

For my part i think Kestrel Mk2 is a good ship, i don't like the "plasma pre engineered canon" module. I expected to be able to enginer it the way i wanted to!
Well, not like i use them anyway, autoload and plasma slug are far the worst effect that could have been set on them anyway.
I'm on regular plasma, found them a lot better for dps and fighting purpose.

Thruster is actually what i longed for over a decade, this kind of mooves, break, rotation, yawn, should be DEFAULT setting on most of light ships.

Top speed 608m/s? Well.. i think it should be arround 650 to be fair with other ships.

Corsair is a 600m/s with heavy build. Cobra Mk V is a 645m/s light build. Imperial Courrier is a standard 700m/s build, and we do not talk about Viper and Eagle (even if they have paper Hull).
I think the global max speed conception should be reworked or some buff/nerf should be made to make the PvP combat fair.
I'm stiking to Corsair and Cobra atm due to kestrel poor hull stats or too low max speed ending in my use of the kestrel only for PvE content.

[native dagger]

For kestrel to be balanced in pvp, the thrusters need to be removed, toned down harshly, or they need to be given to every ship

If they are given to every ship than it still leaves the problem of “ships now change vector too fast for almost any projectile”

But as I said earlier in the thread- Kestrel was released for PvE players who will try it and then quickly drop it for ships actually suited for the task- while negatively affecting pvp

[high compass]

Wym poor hull on kestrel, you can have like 3k hull on it and 2,2 shields with prismos, that's more hull than an fdl or python mk2 in a small

and you don't need that high top speed if you have a literal instant direction change, it's like an in built chaff

[tough tangle]

Top speed and low mass lock are only things keeping it away from being super obnoxious.

[marsh owl]

Now that I've flown it more, I'm starting to feel its weaknesses. I do still feel the new special boost agility bonus needs turned down a bit. But its hull doesn't perform as well as it looks like it will on paper. Maybe because FDev expect even more dodgyness than I'm capable of. I'll fully admit this could be a skill issue on my part. But it doesn't feel like it. So I could see a tiny armor boost or hardness increase.

For the p-shocks, I do think I'm getting higher functional dps from regular plasma (and rails) due to engineering higher shot speed. At least against small ships. So to revise my previous statement. Maybe not nerf their damage. But balance them to get more continuous fire without overheating. I still like them. But I either want to fire them more, or get better projectile speed.

[native dagger]

do you have lateral and vertical thrusters bound

and do you use them?

[marsh owl]

I fly HOSAS. So, yeah. A lot.

[native dagger]

And are you doing pve, pvp, or a mix of both?

[marsh owl]

As I said in my original message. I used to do pvp, but retired from that arena years ago. So now it's just pve and some sparing when friends want to goof around.

[raw apex]

I has more hull than fdl or python mk ii and it's the size of a wafer biscuit. If you're overheating, use heatsinks and keep your weapon capacitor high.

[marsh owl]

Yet I can manage my hull health much better in my FDL. And the p-shards overheat the system in <8 seconds. If it's only a few engagements, then sure. Sinks are fine. But I don't like having to synth sinks just to not have to go resupply all the time. I have more long term staying power in my FDL and my courier.

[native dagger]

FDL makes sense- courier?

[raw apex]

Maybe you're flying the fdl better, it's top tier and you've obviously got more seat time in that. Synthing sinks is fine if you can stay out of fire. The materials are nothing, just bottom tier manufactured mats.

[crimson cargo]

Hmm doubt. Idk what the armour hardness is but can confirm its hull is made out of tissue paper

[crimson cargo]

Going weapon focused seems to largely fix this at the cost of an off meta distributor

[native dagger]

55- but it can stack a very good amount of hull

[crimson cargo]

Ok so it is like 27% lower than the fdl/py2, am feeling that when shields go down

Not to derail that I think it is OP, but it is a glass cannon at least

[tough tangle]

If you skip hull day then yes

[raw apex]

It can still stack more 25 % hull than an fdl - a medium ship and besides, what does hull matter when you can stack prismo and shield cell banks anyway ? Shield is effectively 3x stronger than hull.

[native dagger]

It’s not a glass cannon

It’s better as a shield tank than a hull tank but can still pack a quarter more hull than the FDL- making up for that difference in hull hardness

In terms of shields you can pack a ludicrous amount in there

I’ve got a suboptimal setup and still have 2k

[exotic token]

Like many of you, I'm wondering: have those at Frontier really tested this ship with the mk2 engines?
I just tested it against other Commanders and at the limits of pilotability it seems like an arcade game.

i like the new shocks pas at least

if they wanted to keep the new mk2 engines that's fine but then to balance the game they should add some MALUS. for instance:
-much less integrity?
-alot more of Power Draw?
-alot more of weight?
and so on...

[edgy holly]

But I like the Kestrel MkII. It’s a fun design. And I’m not much of a PvP challenger for this game, I do PvE.

[tough tangle]

Fdev themselves
"A Core Dynamics press statement described the results as “confirmation that the Kestrel is the best small combat ship available.” Engineers monitoring combat situational data reported that the Kestrel outperformed every other ship encountered, better than they had anticipated."

[void epoch]

And with mk1 thruster and 2 class 3 hardpoints, you would have killed an NPC anaconda in 45 instead of 30 seconds. Is that worth eroding the pvp community (e.g. those who prefer skill based play), and I am not saying you prefer that but that fdev does not seem to care.

PVP community isn't the only one affected by fdev decisions. According to a thread in the forums, fdev nerfed thargoid sensors and thus goids can't shoot small agile ships, eroding challenge top ax pilots want. This is a pattern and I hope fdev reverses it.

[edgy holly]

Yeah. But I just like focusing on PvE more than PvP. It’s my gameplay, and my freedom of decision.

And I don’t take any video games way too seriously

[void epoch]

Did I imply you should not focus on pve ? I respect your way of playing. You make it sound like there is no win-win. I like occasional pve (and used to do a lot of pve). But I would never, for one second, prioritize my individual play over any group's play as long as there is win-win. Are you saying the 15 second difference in your kill time is more important than an entire group's way of play ?

[edgy holly]

Just saying though

[void epoch]

In general, what goes around comes around. Today you are the beneficiary. Today. I hope we can have a game we all enjoy. And I will advocate for you, even if you don't advocate for me, just out of principle. Just saying.

[native dagger]

With the exception of AX (which is growing less and less popular), kestrel is not super suited for PVE and will likely be dropped by majority of PvE players after they’ve flown it for a month or so

Kestrel might even negatively affect AX pilots as described above, though it being a PvE activity they could always choose just not to use the obviously too powerful kestrel- PvP actively discourages such choice however

Kestrel’s thruster Mk2’s are the point of contention here- any nerf to the ship that isn’t to those thrusters is dodging the issue

[crimson cargo]

Fwiw I think the thrusters are a lot of fun, it just needs to be offset enough to create some kind of rock paper scissors with other ships

Like i'm totally ok with some sort of kestrel kills py2 kills corvette kills kestrel

[native dagger]

They could be kept fun while not completely destroying the game balance

Cobra 5 is very fun to fly but is not outside the realm of reasonable for Elite

There’s plenty of room between that and what kestrel mk2 thrusters are now

[steep beacon]

Power creep indeed comes with a terrible cost that negatively affects everyone but the whales that don't mind changing clothes every season. And in addition to that, the season lengths may shorten. This game's balance is being sacrificed in the name of profit.

[raw apex]

Do you find pve a challenge using this thing ? I like both pvp and pve, just lean to pvp side cause it feels more interesting. But combat is combat to me.

[tough tangle]

Only thing keeping back C5 is not offering full triangle of maneuverability, firepower and durability.

Fact alone it has yaw as strong as older ship pitch already makes it already outlier, just not to extend of mk2 thrusters.

[native dagger]

Sure, but it’s that extent that is the issue.

Cobra 5 is, for a combat at least, relatively balanced. The issue with cobra 5 is that it’s good at everything to the point of crowding out every small save DBX (and now kestrel)

There are ways to make up for cobra 5’s hardpoints and distro- SRB rails, heatsinks, CG multis

Kestrel needs no such compromise though

[raw apex]

Cobra 5 looks balanced compared to kestrel but medium health pool in a wafer bicuit was never balanced. Amazing the bs we've got used to with new ships. Kestrel is a bad joke.

[exotic token]

I put the mk1 back to make it more fun and drivable (and less of an arcade joke)

[native dagger]

It would still be plenty strong even with the mark 1 thrusters

[exotic token]

It is

[high compass]

When nerf 💀

[latent osprey]

You know the answer, not while its boosting ARX sales, nerf will coincide with it being availble for cr, if at all.

[high compass]

I hope you're right

[magic wigeon]

I doubt it'll be getting nerfed

[high compass]

I'm getting used to flying it and stuff but it's way too strong

[exotic token]

Organic battles had already lost value with the arrival of the Corsair: many commanders with long-range hitscan weapons in reverski, and so on, death of fun and skills.
Now with the Kestrell, organic battles have been dealt the final blow.
What Fdev should understand is that balancing ships in PvP also means balancing them in PvE, BUT THE OPPOSITE IS NOT TRUE.

[tough tangle]

There's no balancing, they're broken in both

NPC are so neutered that even bad ships work against them

[high compass]

If the kestrel was meant to make pve easier then i really don't see a point of that because it was already incredibly easy and you can beat the hardest engineered pirate fdl wing mission in anything that has decent engineering.

[native dagger]

Cough

[dry pine]

Ehem-ehem

[high compass]

Hi

[undone vapor]

cough

[earnest pumice]

Love the Kestrel 😍 💕 💓 ❤️

Thank you FDev. Keep it coming !

[raw apex]

you like dead game ? Then you'll love elite dangerous !

[dry pine]

Thats why I bought it in Galactic Edition actually

Supported game's death ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[raw apex]

Is there a way I can support death of game without spending more money ? I want to help

[dry pine]

Yes there are, but it's about real politics, so can't discuss it here

[earnest pumice]

@raw apex ... how is this dead?

Why are you still here?

[raw apex]

Organic has been pretty dead since that abomination came out. Don't be rude, you're not that guy. @earnest pumice

[karmic hornet]

Question mark?

[earnest pumice]

@raw apex

It is all alive and well., sweetheart.

So sorry not sorry

[raw apex]

I'm not your sweetheart, I don't do neckbeards.

[dry pine]

whar?

Oh, I see. Yes, it's dead.

[earnest pumice]

@raw apex oh sweety, there is no beard on this

[raw apex]

Well that's three times you've pinged me now, sleeping with the light tonight on eh.

[earnest pumice]

@raw apex just keep you thumping. So lively.

[void epoch]

@earnest pumice Please to meet the Uber-Goober.

[undone vapor]

cough

[earnest pumice]

@void epoch oh sweetheart, please do not another going to cry over "pvp is dead"

Too lame.

[hushed bay]

[dry pine]

ORGANIC IS DEAD.
SALT IS FUEL.
INSTANCE IS FULL.

[earnest pumice]

See you in the Black, Cmdr

[void epoch]

Trust, I was the Uber Goober King for almost a decade. Decided to be the pet of PVPers, often half my age. It was a humbling experience, I learned a lot. You should try it.

[earnest pumice]

You can keep the tissues. Go cry elsewhere.

[raw apex]

Watch out, we got a badman over here

[high compass]

tuff

[void epoch]

Honey, I didn't cry when communist police broke my bones at 15, not about to start for a vid game, and will state affairs exactly I see it. If you are so tuff, you find me in San Tu.

[void epoch]

In all seriousness, come and try 1v1s kestrel vs kestrel and kestrel vs whatever, then decide if it's fun ?

[earnest pumice]

Always fun. It is a game. If you are not having fun ... what are you doing wrong

[high compass]

Carpal tunnel gaming
No like fr, I heard tons of complaints from people who fly pvp using sticks. They say this ship just hurts their hands.

Flying fa off and actually boosting btw. Saying "It handles perfectly fine" while you fly around with 4 0 2 pips in fa on means you're not actually using this ships full potential

[exotic token]

Kestrell its fun mainly (if not only) against the lions of the Vettes, Condas and Corsairs, even if often they Cloggin. Kestrell vs Kestrell = 30 minutes of jousting, usually ending with both cmdrs give up the fight. Organic now = tons of Corsair in reverski with LR hitscan weps that run away before shields gone. its not an opinion, its what happening these days in Open. Open = ruined. PvP dogfight also ruined.
this game its not dead just because there are tons of bgs and exploration (and its nice of course), but for having some fun in a fight you've to arrange wing fights with rules. period.
all the cmdr's who deny this simply have no idea what pvp is. thats it.

[raw apex]

You can rely on organised wing fights for a great time in elite dangerous, I'm grateful people organise them, but, I still crave decent organic fights as do many others. It's insane to me how we've gone from new ships dominating legacy ships to new ships dominating slightly less new ships. Feels like the game is currently headed down a dark blind alley and can't see it's way back out.

[soft creek]

Is the game being ruined by Kestrels or by engineered Kestrels?

[hushed bay]

neither, pvp is being ruined by them, most of the game isnt really affected by Kestrels and the new content coming out wont be affected at all by kestrels

if your getting ganked by kestrels and dying very quickly you almost certainly where gonna die to anything else they can use for ganking

and dont get me wrong i dont like pvp at all, but i think it does suck that kestrels are wrecking pvp

[soft creek]

What I mean is, did the power creep start with the Kestrel or much earlier with the introduction of engineers? Yamiks recently did an experiment, trying to make a FdL PvP-ready on a new account, and it took him 24 days of grind to do so, using all available shortcuts. PvP without engineering has become unthinkable, which is probably why a large part of the player base never leaves solo. One might say that's what's ruining the game. The Kestrel just takes this problem to a new level. Without engineering, it probably wouldn't be as OP as it is. Still relatively agile of course, but not to an extent that even experienced PvPers have trouble hitting it.

[hushed bay]

its new MK II plasma weapon doesnt need or get engineering and its very very strong, last i heard its 100% absolute damage (with some saying 95% absolute damage)

pretty sure you can put three of those on and if you dont mind getting alittle toasty can go and wreck stuff with it

and thats keeping the mobility as well, engineering definately makes it better but the boost in any direction is strong regardless

[crimson cargo]

He did not use all available shortcuts, but some of the actual shortcuts are not obvious (although can be found by googling)

I expect one could probably do it in less half the time he did, his run is probably more typical of an above average player who is figuring things out and makes a few mistakes along the way

[soft creek]

He did benefit from the bug that left many engineers unlocked after he cleared the save. So that is one major shortcut not available to new players.

If you can do it faster, you're welcome to make a video about it. Might be a nice speedrun challenge.

[native dagger]

Engineering and its affect on balance is well documented and has been part of the game for longer than it hasn’t

Sure, engineering is unbalanced- but we are specifically talking about why Kestrel is unbalanced to the point of destroying a gameplay loop

[karmic hornet]

I do agree that engineering is a a pretty big roadblock for people trying to get into pvp, but it also makes the game alot more fun and adds quite a lot of depth to it

The whole engineering process is quite time consuming and tedious but removing engineering would just make the game worse

[soft creek]

If I understand the problem correctly, it's that a Kestrel with grade 5 dirty drag drives is almost impossible to hit, and Kestrel vs. Kestrel duels take forever because the pilots keep missing each other.

I don't own a Kestrel, and my only contact with that ship so far was a failed gank attempt. So I'm wondering, would the problem still exist if the Mk II thrusters had no engineering option? What do you think?

[karmic hornet]

Yeayea I think that's fair actually

It's will still be a cobra 5 with 3 pacifiers but atleast the fights will not last 10 extra minutes

[karmic hornet]

Also if you could just fly any ship with any engineering in CQC that would be like the best feature ever added

[soft creek]

I agree, this would turn CQC into a great testing environment for builds.

Another nice feature: unlock modifications once with materials, then buy as many as you need for credits. The game does this already for Guardian FSD boosters and shield reinforcements. Engineers should work the same way.

[crimson cargo]

Tbh i don't have so much of a problem with materials but i think the material grade system should be deleted entirely, and there should be a way to autoengineer instead of having to click 15 times for every part

[dry pine]

Engineering should be reworked in terms of materials and engineers unlock imo, but that's theme for other topic.

[karmic hornet]

Ye

[undone vapor]

goatphon 🔥🔥

[earnest pumice]

Truth

[rigid hill]

"We have received your feedback... And forwarded it to the shredder in the corner."

[high compass]

oof

[exotic token]

the point still the same: FDEV DOESN'T TEST ENOUGH NEW ADD ONS ON GAME. since ever. especially for PvP mechanics

and IF they tested the engineered and released mk2 engines anyway it's even worse: it means they're missing something, they just don't get it

[dry pine]

I'm more than sure that they knew what they're doing. Kestrel indeed have some ideas that looks well structured and tested. However, they didn't predict our reaction.

[exotic token]

the basic idea was good, but a small ship with 3 hp L and 2 S and above all that agility is OP even for PvE

[earnest pumice]

@exotic token same complain everyone was saying when Vulture came out.

Now look ... no one shedding tears anymore.

[exotic token]

They are nowhere near comparable in relation to the other ships they are up against in the game: everything in the Kestrell is OP, even the boost timing which is even lower than that of the FdL. Those who play in PvP know what that means

[raw apex]

Never heard anyone complain about the vulture, it's got quite a big hitbox for a small so it's relatively easy to hit. It's boost is also fairly weak. Talking of tears, you don't seem very happy about it yourself.

[tough tangle]

Only complains about vulture I remember where about it's initial price which was like ~20mil (FDL was ~100mil)

[earnest pumice]

Seen so many at Engineers in Open these days. Good times ahead.

@raw apex love that like bug. Now I do as all Elite Cmdrs do, think of on her while I am in the new treats.

🤪

[iron prism]

I fear G5 dirty drags on it's stupid boost thrusters

[latent osprey]

OMG they fixed the Kestrel in the update

Addressed a click in an engine layer of the Kestrel.

😆

[earnest pumice]

Nice to see that addressed

[high compass]

The bus turns out to be way more fun in pvp than kestrel XD

[iron prism]

It's free

completely

not even creds needed

go to arx store

standard is 0 🥹

[iron prism]

I have noticed

I want the sneaky paint job

[tough tangle]

cost is your sanity as it will occupy one of slots in shipyard even if you sell it

[iron prism]

eh i really don't mind an extea ship

extra*

[rigid hill]

Reminds me of bubblegum icecream from the beach stalls a decade or two ago

[earnest pumice]

Yellow school bus ... pls

[dry pine]

Perfect paintjob for failing missions for BGS 😈

[dry pine]

cough

This thing should not be forgotten

[hushed bay]

Some may argue, the kestrel is not overpowered enough.

Im not among either crowd though

[raw apex]

' not overpowered enough ' - what in the world ? 😭

[hushed bay]

yes i have seen that before online

[earnest pumice]

Kestel is a very fragile little bird. Easy to make kaBoom.

Yet .. in the hands of a skilled pilot it is amazing.

[raw apex]

' Easy to make kaboom ' - post vids of this happening please

[neat lintel]

I was today years old when I learned medium ship bulk is considered fragile.

[high compass]

Kestrel has more hull than python mk2, what are you talking about

[undone vapor]

wrong

kestrel is tanky with more internals than some mediums

contrarian without knowing the facts ?

[deep robin]

Reminder: Be kind and respectful. This goes for fellow Discord members as well as mods and admins, i.e discuss the topic and not the participants in the discussion. Rule #1.

[high compass]

Oh dear! I also noticed that if you ram a properly fitted and engineered kestrel you take more damage than you dealt to it. Isn't that ship like...lighter? Shouldn't it deal less?

[undone vapor]

hmm good observation!

[high compass]

Generally something about kestrel just doesn't feel right, the ship is clearly unbalanced! Also incredibly unfun to fight against! Let's not forget about the fact that a wingfight which includes kestrels tends to last up to 40 minutes while a usual wingfight lasts around 10 or less, depending on how good the players are!

[undone vapor]

i am a pvper and can attest to the numbers presented here!

[high compass]

Fact checked!

Lovely!

[agile spade]

that might have to do with the manufacturer; core dynamics vs falcon delacy.

core ships were always hull tanks.

it's on par with the hull and shield of a vulture

kinda fits for the brand.

[nocturne kernel]

From what I heard, it's on par with the shield of an FDL. Which very much does not fit for the brand

Also, having a fighter that's extremely heavily armored and shielded being that agile is ridiculous

[earnest pumice]

I am a Pvp enthusiast ... love that sweet little bird

[high compass]

Kestrel can have a massive shield health, especially with scbs, so it absolutely doesn't fit the theme.

It also has less weight than medium ships so why does it deal more dmg during rams

[tough tangle]

The medium line (dropship, gunship, assault ship) are hull tanks with poor shields and strong hull.

Vulture and Corvette (and now Kestrel) are more shield focused (Vulture and Kestrel have shields well above their size and Corvette has 2 highest shields in the game) while still being capable of having good hull.

[high compass]

The way they're balanced out is that they don't fly like kestrel

You have super mobility and an insanely big health pool for a ship that size

[undone vapor]

none of those have the insanely small hotbox and maneuverability kestrel has

[agile spade]

vulture does. and is almost as maneurerable.

[karmic hornet]

Me when I spread lies and missinformation:

[agile spade]

When fitted out as identical as they can (trying to max shield / hull with one large mrp)
the vulture and the kestrel end up very similar.

vulture 2.35k shield 2.23k hull top speed 555m/s
kestrel 2.28k shield 2.58k hull top speed 592m/s
they both have the same hull hardness at 55 and the same mass lock factor at 10

the vulture is also a very maneuverable ship. in most regards the kestrel is an upgrade on the vulture. What limits the vulture a lot is the small power plant otherwise you could load up some cell banks as well if you would like.

[void epoch]

Vulture is not even close, significantly less firepower, 555 vs 591 and significantly less agility: kestrel has more yaw agility compared to vulture than the vulture has compared to the fdl. Agility in yaw relative to boost speed is incredibly important in this game, given all other equal (or worse) ? It means if you are a good enough pilot in kestrel, you can always pick a 'diagonal' (pitch + yaw) orbit plane that no other combat ship can match. Kestrel already out turns combat ships in pitch, but if the opponent uses pitch and yaw and good enough to orbit at smaller radius, they have a chance. Now they don't, the skill gap must be significantly higher, and may not even be enough once both pilots pass a certain skill level.

[tough tangle]

And Vulture isn't exactly small either, it's frontal hit profile is comparable to smaller mediums, especially with shield.

[agile spade]

I disagree. the ones i've fought they seem similar to that of a vulture.

[fluid jolt]

Who needs yaw when you can just pitch?

[high compass]

you can also spin so fast with kestrel that the game doesn't even register it, from another pov your ship just wiggles slightly while the circle spins around like crazy

[steep beacon]

spinning faster than the packets per second can replicate it

[high compass]

ye it's what I'm talkin about

[raw apex]

If the kestrel is so fast at spinning / making sudden vector changes that the game can't even register it..............wouldn't that make the instance lag for everyone else ?

[steep beacon]

no, because it's not a matter of bandwidth but a matter of what states the game will send to sync

[agile spade]

you get updates on whatever update cycle fdev uses. your client interpolates the opponents ships motion based on that data. if the kestrel is turning faster than the updates.. for you it doesnt really matter. the ships motion on your end will be determined by the data you get.

[earnest pumice]

"Spinning that is a good trick"

[timber fog]

Phantom-pilled Menacemaxxing

[dense lichen]

well the only way to deal with them is long range muticannons

[undone vapor]

cough

[high compass]

Most unfun ship to fight in organic pvp ngl

I love when the fight lasts 40 minutes instead of the usual 10

[void epoch]

It would be instructive for us all to watch the DEVs demonstrate the intricacies of kestrel duels. I'll bring the beer.

[earnest pumice]

@void epoch ... simple don't Duel or just like an untrained and unskilled noob.

Fly the craft as it is meant. Combat lasts about as long as true combat last.

Blink and miss it.

[void epoch]

Surely the devs play the game, and the partnership goobers are avid pvpers, everything is in good hands. Just in case, I bring moonshine too.

[raw apex]

Bro you will die if you drink that watching a kestrel duel, would recommend shandy

[void epoch]

I like the idea of Shandy

[raw apex]

I just like lemonade tbh

[void epoch]

I drink about 1 beer every two weeks, but for this occasion, I would need something stronger.

[earnest pumice]

During the day more into Cider in these warm/hot months, as darkness falls my cups fill with rum.

[nocturne kernel]

Bumping this so it doesn't lose visibility. Kestrel is still far too overpowered

[high compass]

Yup

[undone vapor]

Yup

[hushed bay]

next year, we will have the kestrel mk III, and it will let you hyperjump hop mid combat!!!

enemy 8km ahead of you? hop ahead that 8km! if you both go boom doing that mission success

[hushed bay]

obviously im making a bad joke here