#Remove/Rework Idol

165 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

last walrus
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I'm bringing this discussion into the spotlight even if it goes on deaf ears 🔥🔥

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It gets talked about a lot so maybe people can compile their thoughts

restive arch
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1/42 loss followed by another 1/42 loss

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Im done with it

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Too many games lost to silly idol stuff, if you do something my winrates going up

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Like I think it should have a rework instead of being completely removed, it leaves a gap in the game

austere geode
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i like idol :D

glacial zenith
fluid dove
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Remove idol but add a joker: x2 mult on a single card, card is picked from your deck by a moderator of the Balatro multiplayer discord

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but that would be too much work for mods just make it random at that point

sacred basalt
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No reason to remove idol

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Make a case instead of just saying remove idol. Default is to leave something in the game

last walrus
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but what do I know

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Glass was removed and hanging chad was changed both due to being too powerful, the least that could be done is making idol rare but even then I just hate seeing it

last walrus
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or a nerf

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im not necessary saying I have the answers but I feel like this conversation should be had again

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idol for me personally makes me frustrated

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its much more balanced in singleplayer than mp

verbal cedar
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Do you guys even know about fantom's idol fix?

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For me it's fine in current state

glacial zenith
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shhhhh dont tell them they need to cope

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in all seriousness though i think it should be kept in tge game just changed to a rare

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i dont hate the mechanics as much as i used to, but since its objectively the best scoring option besides baron (which is rare) most games end up as idol games so it just isnt interesting anymore

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if i didnt see it as much the problem would be mitigated

last walrus
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I'm glad you can't lose off of rng

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the problem is that the joker exists and if you find it its a win button and you have to play around it

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in higher stakes its less of an issue admittedly

last walrus
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if it appears, the game becomes an idol game unless it appears really late

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im just tired of idol being all over the place

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making it rare would suffice at least

verbal cedar
last walrus
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yes but

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ancient requires extra setup with wild cards to be truly great
bloodstone has the 1 in 2 chance so requires oops to be truly great
baron needs a lot more setup
mime requires other good jokers but yeah mime is also crazy

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idol requires a lot of setup too but you're always pushing towards it anyways

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and x2 mult with it just makes it so absurdly powerful

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ancient, bloodstone, baron all are 1.5x

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idol is 2x

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and with the nature of bmp, you can spend much more time setting it up and even throw lives to set it up further

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Remove/Rework Idol

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To me its less of a "I hate playing against this card" and more of "I'm sick of every game it appears in becoming an idol game"

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and it won't get nerfed in singleplayer cause its much less good in singleplayer, so no hope of it changing in the 1.1 update :/

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its also hell in gradient deck but thats mostly irrelevant

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anyways this is just my overall feelings on it. I'll continue to play but idol being around (as it is rn) makes the game net negative worse and less fun imo

verbal cedar
last walrus
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hell as in its absolutely busted

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obviously the meta will always be retriggers and such but idol is such a ridiculously powerful retrigger joker

fluid dove
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to keep it better than ancient

sacred basalt
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IMO idol rewards good gameplay and that is satisfying to me. If you just don’t like seeing the same stuff play higher stakes or small world lol

restive arch
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My extremly bad rng is the problem, I lost a game ebacsue there was like 10 jacks for me and +1 for my opp and the same deck size and it hit for them and not for me even though I invested into seance for red seals and not for them, just really bad and frustrating rng soemtimes

fluid dove
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and if you happen to get cryptid from speedrun into an off hit on idol...

last walrus
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^

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It's just an unfun stupidly powerful joker

last walrus
restive arch
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Its satisying geting a hugenumber but not so for it hitting perfectly for opps and not for me with messy decks or having an edge in something else like having red seals

last walrus
sacred basalt
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Yeah just deck fix better 🤷🏼‍♀️

restive arch
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they are times where you have wilds cards or a higgher frequency of a non desirable card when even the fixed idol feels unfair and rng

last walrus
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And not to mention it heavily encourages pushing for idol in runs and not much else

fluid dove
last walrus
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Rework idol :(

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I will continue to protest it

restive arch
last walrus
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Heck yeah

restive arch
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I Just lost to "fixed idol" again

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stupid wild offhits

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I want a no Idol week

last walrus
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Remove/rework idol

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🔥

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please

mystic oar
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at this point, just make a poll to remove idol, all games are speculative idol which is so unfun

sacred basalt
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Then every game would be a speculative ancient/bloodstone game. Certain things are strongest and you will play towards them. Sure right now it’s idol but there will always be a strongest thing

mystic oar
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this is a balance issue atp, the top 10 viable jokers outshine all the others and its not even close, i did request to add more multiplayer jokers that were strong but that request was shut down QUICK, im not sure what the solution is but its good that we agree that there is a balance issue

last walrus
mystic oar
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i agree, what i mean is if we remove idol or nerf it heavily its just gonna be speculative bloodstone or ancient because theyre the strongest after idol

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but generally 85% of the joker pool is reroll fodder sadly

last walrus
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2x there is photograph which barely counts and then idol and trib

mystic oar
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so do you think a solution is nerfing it to 1.5x? i kinda agree but we can know until we try

last walrus
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That or make idol harder to work

restive arch
sacred basalt
restive arch
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the wilds, the most freuqenet card not being the one you want is the first issue

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and whenevers I have slightly fewer cards fixed I get punished but my opponent never does when my deck is like 90% fixed

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and lucky offhits with gradient or like one person hits 7 of hearts and someone hits spades and sees the same suit changer that can just loose games too

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and when my deck is mostly fixed and dont skip to get more value it always betrays me

sacred basalt
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Mathematically these things happen just as much to you as to your opponent

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And gradient is not in ranked

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Making it 1.5x wouldn’t “fix” any of these problems btw

restive arch
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I could use ancient instead

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And I just get really really unlucky and cant rank up with this just like 2/3 games

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while my oops get easy mmr

sacred basalt
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And neither is idol

restive arch
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can find it with ticket

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but like I would prefer buidling into it than idol if they both were 1.5x

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and like rare blocking and wraith and rare skips

sacred basalt
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With the order you’d either both find ancient, both find idol, or both find both

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Now you have ancient and idol and you’re still complaining

restive arch
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But like super late game when you only need one

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Mabye its just me getting super unlucky tho

sacred basalt
restive arch
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its hard too when its like all the time

sacred basalt
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When you get an off hit it doesn’t stick in your memory like losing to an off hit does

restive arch
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Like one game where I had 10/42 and oop had 11/42 but I had red seals but opp didnt

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or just having wilds or lots of purple seal or ojia messing idol up

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but I havnt won a game yet or mabye only 1 due to the fact idol hit something my opp didnt get or a lucky offhit but I remeber so many games loosing to that

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And I had a deck 100% fixed mutliple times

last walrus
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I just don't get why fantom is such a strong defender of keeping idol

last walrus
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Idc if both players get to see idol, idol being in the game means every game becomes an idol game if it appears

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At the very least if it was 1.5x maybe you could win with a good bloodstone or ancient setup

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It would still dominate but clearly people are too attached to it to let it go

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So nerfing it would at least not make it equal to the power of a freaking legendary joker in multiplayer lol

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Trib is its own problem but its legendary so it barely appears

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So it's completely fine imo

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I also don't understand why we can't poll for it

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I accidentally changed threads

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So the rest of this rant can be read here

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lol

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Gonna be epic when other cards get nerfed and idol stays the same in 1.1 and then idol meta gets even stronger cause it's just alright in singleplayer

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🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥

last walrus
restive arch
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also no stelzer week too

last walrus
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No x mult week

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🔥 🔥 🔥

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Jk that's probably too far

restive arch
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I'm fine with most of them its just idol and stezler that piss me off

last walrus
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Thank you for being on the side of being against idol and seltzer

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I'm less strong against seltzer but I don't like how much it encourages stalling anyways

restive arch
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I had a game idol geeting a really low roll hit my opp and not me drained stelzer and lost that way

last walrus
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Balatro multiplayer 🔥 🔥 🔥

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Seltzer was voted against being removed anyways

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So it ain't happening

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Sadly

restive arch
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idol change sloves stelzer a bit

last walrus
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Yeah

sacred basalt
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If we are going to fix it we should address the actual problem with it. If it’s rng then let’s fix the rng instead of tweaking some numbers

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We changed conjoined to be less powerful but that didn’t fix the actual problems with it

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Define the issue and propose a solution that addresses that problem

last walrus
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conjoined is a totally different case because it inherently generally works well for one player and not the other so it'll always kinda have that weird problem but idol being 1.5x or just a lower x would at least make other cards more viable against it

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idc if its still strong I just want more counterplay to it

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I don't think people would be as in support of a full rework and I don't know how I would design said rework because im not a game designer

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so if thats enough for the problem to be tossed so be it I guess

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perhaps changing it to be a flat x mult rather than on card played that goes up when you play a specific good card in your hand

sacred basalt
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Conjoined was just an example that simply changing a number doesn’t fix a joker if the number wasn’t the issue in the first place

last walrus
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but in this case changing the number would at minimum be an easy change to put in that would help

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it wouldn't fix it but with the current state of ranked a rework could never happen anyways.

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it would never go through

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would be stuck in advisor hell forever

restive arch
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The main problem is all the rng. The difference in deck fixing should punish and reward players, but the extent to this is way too much rng. You can have a one to two card difference and one player gets it and the other one dosn't thats happend way too many times to me in the last week (5), or you have a 100% fixed deck and opp hits anyway. And if you say "deck fix better" then what if you had seance instead of trading card and get deja vu or anhk or arua that makes the diff, but you still dont win because of really bad luck although I see this as the better play if you don't have these spectral affects yet. At the cost of a little deckfixing usally is more scoring that can make the diff, but it dosnt matter anyway now becasue I always get the worst hit 24/7. The idol's complete rng varience in what it picks shoudn't be deciding games. Not only all of that but also the ways to cheese the fixed idol and silly offhits. You can have wild cards where you are primaraly building into hearts anyway but you have a random queen of clubs and because your cards are wild that works out anyway, but with a single card its practically just giving idol a small chance to completely screw you over, which is really silly. Another thing that happens is that what if I deck fixed better and had 15 jack or hearts and opp had 10 but then 7 of diamonds comes along which is glass and red seal, so if we had 5 of these and we need that to hit to win instead of the face cards, it can hit my kings 10-15 and it would hit 7 for my opp, and if it hits cards 15-20 I win, so the better deck fixing does nothing to stop a 50/50 that you can just lose too anyway. Another problem is that you can have diffrent one card offhits but the numbers you could of used hang man or immolate could just be diffrent, so you can't build into from a tiny descion earier. Or mabye it hits diffrent suits and one opp cant find one suit conveter but the other can just leaving it down to rng again.

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Also some people love purple seals so much that they make 15 of them and then that offsets idol too and your purple seal number isn't usally the card you want meaning the same rng problem is back. Also finally gradient deck is super fun but I can't play it now knowing its even worse with Idol

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Making Idol 1.5x isnt perfect, but it deffinetly helps. I just don't want to be loosing games to all these things above and I want to loose becasue I feel outplayed

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Also dont make this into a copypasta, I need to improve it a bit

last walrus
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🔥 well said

fluid dove
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I should also point out that 2x is 2 times better than 1.5x, cuz you need 2 1.5x to beat 2x, so ancient has to have retriggers to beat idol

red flame
# last walrus but in this case changing the number would at minimum be an easy change to put i...

This has been my argument since the beginning so I’m sorry if I sound like a broken record with this, but how does the way you play the game change if idol is nerfed or removed? There will always be parts of this game that are relatively frustrating in the short term, but rewarding in the long run. Idol and ancient are great examples of this. More often than not, the better player wins in an idol game. There are so many ways that this game can screw you over that are beyond control of the player. What changes if we change idol?