#Remove/rework ankh/invis

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

haughty valley
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invis doesnt have this issue unless you wraith it, but we couldnt even get a vote through to remove seltzer so this will never happen

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personally id like to see ankh removed from the pack pool, since this can happen and also getting the ankh wraith 50/50 wrong is literally gamelosing

mental cypress
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Yeah the only “issue” is with ankh and in my opinion just remove ankh from the spectral pack pool and there’d be no issues

fluid mist
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I fully support ankh being removed/reworked

vital pike
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As much as I enjoy the kind of "ankh gambits" you can make risking some jokers and copying others, I just don't think it works that well with econ and the multiplayer aspect, so I agree with ankh removal too tbh

tawdry nexus
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I get the arguments for removing ankh, but I think we’d be losing more than we would be fixing. It’s an interesting gambit to have to sacrifice all your other jokers for a copy of your best one and adds a lot of interesting strategy. And it not working well with econ is a plus I think, I like that it’s a sacrifice, and it’s one of the few things that make econ not everything when it’s already extremely important. Removing it from the pack pool is somewhat fair I suppose, but I also like that you have to go into spectrals with a plan of what to do if an ankh is there, otherwise it’s just how low can I take my econ in case of wraith

desert skiff
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make it so it shows up only after the first pvp

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so its actually a sacrifice

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and not just free

desert skiff
vital pike
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Why does it only showing up after first pvp change much?

vital pike
fluid mist
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I actually like this proposal of having it only show after first PvP

vital pike
fluid mist
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The only way to fix it truly imo is to remove it from the pack pool but I can see how that would not be super desirable

vital pike
# fluid mist The main thing it does is make it a small bit less free of a take since you'd ha...

But the whole issue is, imagine this
I'm 10 rerolls ahead, I have idol and sock (maybe even a dusk)
You have just idol
We both see the ankh in the spectral pack
You ankh sacrificing whatever econ joker you had, you reroll with a little bit of extra money left over, congrats you now have a sock and two idols!!!!
I need to sacrifice a sock to get two idols, now I now have two idols with no retriggers and no retriggers show up in the shop... (I likely won't take this line because it's better to use sock and make econ trying to reach a blueprint or brainstorm or additional retriggers or even showman into an idol it I think I have loads of econ)
I lose because you were obviously more "skilled" in this situation (you won because you had worse econ)

fluid mist
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What does any of this have to do with ankh showing up later in the shop vs before first PvP

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I'm confused

vital pike
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So I really don't think making it only available after first pvp, if anything the ankh that is before pvp usually has an equal advantage to both players and offers something interesting (one player can go for econ, one does for winning first pvp)

fluid mist
vital pike
fluid mist
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I guess

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Honestly just remove it from packs

vital pike
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Like you're not improving anything by only making it available after first pvp, and you're arguably hurting a specific line anyway imo and it just mean people are more likely to roll down and open the pack hoping for better wraith odds, I suppose

fluid mist
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Feel like that would be fine

vital pike
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Yeah, same, except exactly what sizaak said before

vital pike
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And just makes wraith game even more heavy and slightly boring in a way

fluid mist
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I also think wraith is an issue but idk removing too much can definitely be a problem

vital pike
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Exactly

fluid mist
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But also, I've never hated the idea of shifting a bunch joker and Balatro balance to make mp more fun

vital pike
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That's why most people wanna just leave it as is

tired cloud
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There are just a lot of gamewining spectrals is the thing

vital pike
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Which is why sixth sense gets as much usage as it does

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Like you never see top players hang a 6 because of this

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Like that seems sorta extreme in a way, yet it's just the way the game is

tired cloud
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Anhk, wraith, immolate, deja vu, aura, talisman, meduim, cryipted, ecto, familar, even ojiar have won me games

vital pike
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Yep

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Same here ofc

fluid mist
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Im not saying we should do this

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But I almost wonder what would happen if we just cut out spectral packs entirely

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So you can only get them from jokers

tired cloud
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standard packs will be must open

fluid mist
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I feel like they're already pretty must open usually

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But yeah

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Even more so

tired cloud
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as they already are but in the early game you have to take them avoid risk in being behind the que

fluid mist
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Right

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Actually I guess sybil deck is the way to do this

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lol

tired cloud
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It would be painfull holding certificate for a red seal for even longer

fluid mist
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I honestly just hope the new Balatro content update does more to buff up other types of hands and stuff

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Probably the best chance we have at getting a good balance change thing

tired cloud
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You cant really pefectly balance everything but it be nice to see some of the weaker jokers and other things being more viable

vital pike
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Reliable chip scaling, we can't buff it to start with 64 chips for free to every hand

tired cloud
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Yeah please dont nerf square

haughty valley
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So much of missing the point in this 😔

vital pike
haughty valley
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Sizaak talking about playing around the ankh when the point is that if youre far enough ahead you literally CANT play around it

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If I have bp bs and you only have bp it doesnt matter how much playing around it I do I lose

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It is simply a rng based "insta lose" button

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Sure it sometimes provides some cool decision making, but more often an ankh in the pack is just a feels bad

haughty valley
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We need to decide what "insta-lose rng buttons" were okay with, it started with saying that the order is needed because of an insta loss button, basically the whole community matches rare skips now, ankh is the last true insta lose, if you want to put seltzer in this category (I would) then thats one weve kept, its just drawing this line

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I believe the following statement,

"Under no circumstances should one decision decide the entire game"

mossy flare
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depending on where in shop you find it one player could make it last for 1 ante while gettig full econ value, while another could make it last for 2 while also getting full econ value

vital pike
haughty valley
vital pike
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Fair enough

haughty valley
mossy flare
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what is it then

haughty valley
vital pike
haughty valley
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I sent this in the staff channel a while ago

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Learn!

vital pike
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I saw that before, and tbh I don't mind seltzer being banned

mossy flare
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yeah im also fine with it

vital pike
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I'm against retriggers being as dominant as they are

mossy flare
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did we ever do a poll on it?

vital pike
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I don't think so, think it just lead to advisors arguing over it and coming to no agreement

vital pike
haughty valley
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I dont mind leaking this

IMG_2694.png
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I wont leak who voted what though

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I suggested this like week one of multiplayer and everyone hated it

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Truly a visionary

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But like, yeah, shit sucks but its vanilla so people would rather that

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The lose a life

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My perfect version of bmp is glass removed from play completely, seltzer and ankh gone

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I dont even love ankh upstairs since it often just becomes a "who reads the seed better" type of game

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Anyways back on topic

vital pike
# haughty valley The lose a life

Tbf, I don't really like this either because any point where you can ankh while being ahead often losing the life is not that valuable or you're both losing the life anyway, to me it sorta seems like it kills the viability of ankh with this heavy a downside to the point where you can only really ankh bp but then it's still difficult to get back unless you have enough money to get econ back online properly

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Like you can't really ankh early saying that you've got a mail and go full econ because probably the loss of the life can lead to you just being out-tempoed because your opponent can see you ankhed

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So that's not viable

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You can still make the argument for early ankh idol but whatever, that's going to happen anyway and that'll happen for both players and now you're just playing an idol game with one less ante for no reason 💀

haughty valley
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No I wouldn't actually want it since new players would rip an ankh and be really confused

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But one button loss mechanics are just ass to lose too

vital pike
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The issue isn't really there if it's written all over the card?

vital pike
vital pike
haughty valley
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Anyways, my issue isnt with these elements being too rng or too strong (ankh and seltzer respectively) its that often times these elements are uncompetitive, game-winning, and completely uncounterable

tired cloud
haughty valley
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Making draws like this more consistent are nice, unnoticeable changes. An issue though is that after ante 3 you wont be able to notice this change, since players have likely hanged different cards

tired cloud
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Thanks for brining it up, I've lost and won a few games just down to this

tawdry nexus
# haughty valley Sizaak talking about playing around the ankh when the point is that if youre far...

I don’t think I missed the point, I started what I said with “I understand the arguments for removing it”, and then I explained what I think we’d be losing if it was removed (and I really do understand, I think I’d prefer it wasn’t removed but yeah it can rarely screw up a game so if it is then oh well). I also don’t think that it deciding the fate of a game instantly happens as often as you’re saying. With bp/bs both in hand and the opponent only having one of them sure. But I think there’s also plenty of games where it’s about the same or a bit more painful to ankh for one player. If you drop a non-rare joker, especially to ankh a bp/bs and then suddenly have great econ with a mail-in, there’s a good chance it comes back around. I also like that it makes lives more important, cause finding an ankh is almost like an econ reset since if you take it you gotta sell everything you found by being ahead in the shop. It’s already so viable to just throw PvP for econ early and I don’t think we need to make it more so

tawdry nexus
# haughty valley

In this scenario, how did seltzer not matter for player A? Just too far ahead in score anyways? I think it’s fine for seltzer to be a rare thing to bail out a player who got up in lives early but then fell behind, especially because I feel like this rarely happens anyways because usually if player A is that far ahead they find another retrigger. And seltzer, like ankh, I feel like adds a lot of fun gameplay and shouldn’t be removed because of the rare case where it decided a game

haughty valley
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the issue is that there is never a time when A having the seltzer decides the pvp

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And rarely is a huge understatement, anytime you see a seltzer its the first thing that comes to mind

tawdry nexus
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Yeah that’s fair, I still think it’s something you can usually find ways to fix or mitigate it though, and I think playing around the limited resource leads to interesting gameplay decisions

haughty valley
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the fun gameplay you describe is full skipping antes to try to keep seltzer alive, basically not playing the game

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there isnt a decision though, you are forced into full skipping and until your opponent has the seltzer, because if your seltzer expires youre drawing to like 2 outs max

tawdry nexus
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So do you think we should avoid things that make skipping viable lol? I don’t think that’s unfun

haughty valley
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i said full skipping isnt a fun gameplay decision, especially when its forced

tawdry nexus
haughty valley
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even if this was a "fun and interesting gameplay decision", it still has the issue I outlined

haughty valley
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drawing dead unless you hit sock or dusk

tawdry nexus
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Idk if you put yourself in that position by going down in lives that’s a risk you have to take imo

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Maybe I’m biased cause I like to play behind in shops and go for different kinds of value. But the way I see it, both of these changes are to avoid a mechanic that can cause the player behind in shops to win, and removing makes econ the center of the game more than it already is. People get annoyed when I beat them when behind on econ, but imo that’s just a different playstyle. I don’t deserve to lose because they were ahead in the shop, but it feels like people think that way sometimes when they send the log read and are like “seriously?”

haughty valley
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thats fair enough, I dont think greeding one pvp too many should have a potential downside of being too far ahead but at least you see the potential issue. The further issue is that ankh doesnt care about econ. I can be up on lives, money, deckfixing, scoring, further in every queue, and because of a poorly timed ankh its just gg's

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if both gamewinning jokers are rare you are simply betting on which one comes back, this event is definitely rarer than the seltzer one but it still feels like shit when the loss is out of your control, and theres very little you can do to come back

tawdry nexus
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On average though, if you see an ankh and you’re ahead you’re still more likely to win. The shop ahead has the same chance of having good jokers as the shops before, you could have better deckfixing, you could have a better joker to copy if ahead in the shop, and obviously being up in lives helps.

tawdry nexus
tawdry nexus
mental cypress
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The suggestion is not to remove it entirely from the game. An ankh upstairs is very powerful and requires that same sacrifice/decision making. The difference is that both players will see the same source of an ankh at the same time in relation to the rest of the jokers.

desert skiff
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remove jokers

haughty valley
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if by jokers you mean seltzer and bloodstone then HELL YEAH

fluid mist
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remove seltzer 🔥

orchid scroll
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why not just ankh invis and then die to blinds

tough sigil
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make it effectively an econ joker

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🔥

tired cloud
# tough sigil Suggestion: Make seltzer not work during pvp

what if instead if was artificially placed, so like each time u finish a pvp blind there's a 1/5 (number can change) for seltzer to be in the shop as soon as you left the pvp blind no mater where you are in the shop que and stelzer no longer appears from rerolls

tough sigil
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that feels like an incredibly overcomplex solution imo