Revert Kaguya nuke upgrade requirement change

[royal lotus]

😭

they should give xp boost in server for being on lbs

[quasi maple]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1291141058650046547/1393983508950814882/caption-4.gif

[cold willow]

bro what are those capchas

im failing

[royal lotus]

🤔

[verbal knot]

its to fuck with bots

[cold willow]

oke well he said

u always use it

then its just

ok to have it for traitless

not ok to have it on traits

[royal lotus]

no but u always use it because dimensions r op

u would still always use it

except for like snow

[cold willow]

well

they arent THAT op no?

atleast on traitless

[royal lotus]

full map repulse

[cold willow]

i mean if its kaguya yuha vswj eveyr floors

tbh whats the diff to

[royal lotus]

pretty much

[cold willow]

yuha vsjw everyfloor 😭

same shit

[royal lotus]

ik

and ur just making traitless more annoying

so why even bother

@warm oyster ok answer me this

even with this nuke change

wouldnt u still be using kaguya vsjw yuha every floor anyways

except for like snow then u would maybe take out kaguya

so whats the point of this change

traits is still slop and traitless just becomes more annoying

[warm oyster]

Dudes acting like im not the #1 yhwach hater

i been preaching for a yhwach nerf since day 1 brochacho

[royal lotus]

too late

[warm oyster]

the difference is we cant

bc its dmg

the nuke is a small portion of her kit

which doesnt effect 99% of players

so it was fine

[royal lotus]

with the circumstances then

kaguya nuke being nerfed doesnt matter for traits

and its bad for traitless

so it should be reverted no?

[warm oyster]

what

what point are you trying to make

[royal lotus]

for traits right

ur gonna be using kaguya on most floors

even with the nuke change

[warm oyster]

Yes

[royal lotus]

just due to cc

[warm oyster]

but now you dont have the avenue to nuke early

so you wont use the nuke every floor

[carmine ore]

Y’all are still going at it

[royal lotus]

yes but if ur gonna be using her anyways

why does that matter

when its harming the balance of traitless

which even u somewhat agreed with

[warm oyster]

having 1 op thing is alot more balanced then having 2 op things

[cold willow]

vsjw has arise and bear spam 🤔

[royal lotus]

not really 😭

if ur gonna be running her anyways

[cold willow]

diavolo has op dmg and op ability !

[royal lotus]

like yuha with only 1 op thing is still ranked higher than kaguya with 2 op things

overpowered stuff isnt created equal 🤣

[cold willow]

oke but lest not nerf yuha

[royal lotus]

nah

[low raven]

vanguards farm

[cold willow]

i still stand that in the end nerf only makes things worse and its just irrelevant for triat

[royal lotus]

devs have no choice

[cold willow]

and as vanguard unit she shouldnt get nerfed

[royal lotus]

if they nerfed yuha they would be torched alive

[cold willow]

yuha ws mistake in the end

just bugged

[royal lotus]

ya they just gotta accept that

[cold willow]

now they gonna have issue for a long time

[royal lotus]

like they should with kaguya nuke

[cold willow]

cuz what they just gonna make 100k dps full aoe unit.

[royal lotus]

wdym

[cold willow]

tbh they might next update

about time

[royal lotus]

ya they said theyre introducing more powercreep

[cold willow]

thats cheap as well

[warm oyster]

Your not really getting my point

and thats ok

[low raven]

animal farm but av

[royal lotus]

so explain

[low raven]

❗

[warm oyster]

I have

[royal lotus]

instead of just talking down to me

[warm oyster]

many times

[royal lotus]

one more time for me

[cold willow]

im pretty sure every1 got your point 😭

[royal lotus]

cuz i didnt quite catch it ig

[warm oyster]

clearly not

ok

[cold willow]

oke point is kaguya nuke -> max yhwatch evert floor

[low raven]

is the mereoleona quest still bugged

it was bugged this morning

💤

[verbal knot]

if it dont work go priv server

[carmine ore]

Who is that

[low raven]

alr

[warm oyster]

kaguya is op for worldlines due to a niche interaction that only happens in worldlines
meaning if we nerf it, it effects a small portion of players

yhwach is op for his damage everywhere
meaning if we nerf him, it effects every single player

[low raven]

leo

[carmine ore]

And who is the portal secret

[low raven]

i hope mereoleona is good 😔

[warm oyster]

that got yhwach

[low raven]

no1

[carmine ore]

Who?

[low raven]

mereoleona is a quest

[royal lotus]

ok but the issue here

[low raven]

nobody is the secret

for portals

there is no secret port

[carmine ore]

Oh

[royal lotus]

whats the point of nerfing something so niche

when its already not the most op thing regardless

its like ur trying to balance the units while pretending vsjw and ywhach dont exist

when they obviously do

[cold willow]

oke but in the end

[royal lotus]

and we should just embrace that

[cold willow]

kaguya nerf is

1. bad for triatless
2. irrelevant for traits

?

[royal lotus]

mhm

pretty much

[warm oyster]

how is it irrelevent for traits

i dont get it

lol

[cold willow]

cuz u just

bear spam a bit

[tranquil girder]

should bear spam get nerfed @royal lotus what do u think

[royal lotus]

ur running her anyways

[cold willow]

instead

upgrade yuha a bit later

[warm oyster]

yes

[cold willow]

and it changes nothing

[royal lotus]

nah

[cold willow]

it should but

dont do it atp

cuz maxed vsjw has less value than bearspam

[royal lotus]

so all the nuke does is increase the floor cap by a bit

not really unhealthy for the game

[warm oyster]

a bit?

[royal lotus]

with the new floors scaling change

its really not that bad

[warm oyster]

unhealthy for worldlines*

[cold willow]

did they change scaling already?

[hidden moat]

and when they decides to do it later on, i better not see you whin like you're doing with a similar suggestion to this about bear spam nerf

[royal lotus]

ye

[royal lotus]

yeah

[cold willow]

i like bear spam

its just

too op tho

[royal lotus]

thats what i meant

[cold willow]

idc if it exists

would be same issue as w kaguya nerf

exactly the same

[royal lotus]

the issue is u cant just go around changing stuff thats been so core to worldlines for so long 😭

[warm oyster]

yes

[royal lotus]

axing it now just makes the gameplay feel worse than before

besides this is just my opinion but i actually enjoy bear spamming somewhat

gives u something to do

instead of sitting there waiting for round to end

also forces u to manage multiple things in the heat of the moment

[cold willow]

bear spam nerf would fk traitless wl palyers but be irrelevant to trait wl players

same as kaguya

[royal lotus]

what

bro what 😭

[cold willow]

cuz on triats u just max vsjw

and its fine

u do iron duo

[royal lotus]

WHAT

my guy

[cold willow]

u could*

do that if bear spam wasnt a thing

thats how it was before

[royal lotus]

i mean

i think bear spam is more op for traited

but like

either way it would massively change how wl is played

[cold willow]

ye but on traits u can afford 'alternative'

[royal lotus]

only on some maps

[cold willow]

anyway i dont think there is good way nor reason to nerf that

same as kaguya 😭

is it really that much diff

using vsjw a bit compared to nuking w kaguya?

[royal lotus]

nope

not really

with this change now ur just bear spamming all the early game mobs instead

so much better wooooo

anyways @warm oyster what do u think

[warm oyster]

about what

nerfing bear spam?

[royal lotus]

no

[royal lotus]

^

[warm oyster]

its not irrelvent for traits

the point u are making is that

you are gonna bring her anyway

which is true

BUT

[cold willow]

oke its small diff cuz instead of nuking u bear spam a bit

[warm oyster]

bringing her for 2 op things (cc+early clear)
is infinitely times worse
then bringing her solely for the support

[cold willow]

if u need

[warm oyster]

which she should be used for

since she is a "support vanguard"

[royal lotus]

im arguing that its not really worse

cuz its not like nuke is op for other stuff

[warm oyster]

i simply dont agree

[cold willow]

apparently

[royal lotus]

support vanguard that does almost 100k dps 😔

[cold willow]

its yuha vsjw kaguya all 440 floors

its gonna stay same tho 😭

[royal lotus]

what im saying is

[cold willow]

whether kaguya is nerfed or not

[royal lotus]

it heavily negatively impacts traitless

[cold willow]

mby unless its freeze/repulse immune right?

[royal lotus]

wl

[royal lotus]

yeah snow

so ONLY for that

now u would bring a diff unit

[royal lotus]

in actual gameplay

how is it infinitely worse

[warm oyster]

cos the early nuke was the most op thing for this 1 niche use

you can bear spam early mobs sure

but thats not full map

and costs 5x more

[royal lotus]

yeah but all u do now is bear spam the early game mobs instead

r u arguing thats better?

while also simultaneously negatively impacting traitless wl

i dont think its worth it in the end

[warm oyster]

what is negatively impacting in your eyes

[sullen hollow]

It’s nerfed after wl reset

[royal lotus]

money nerf

less options for what u can use

[sullen hollow]

Strats bro Strats

U work with what u have

[royal lotus]

remember when i beat u in rift

[cold willow]

i mean how is last wl not good example

153 not doable w/o nuke

[royal lotus]

yeah obviously u dont get infinite money

[cold willow]

25 ppl got there or sum

[sullen hollow]

What rift

[cold willow]

and other ppl got stuck later on

[royal lotus]

but i think the slightly less money u get

is a negative impact

[cold willow]

so it split

[sullen hollow]

Yea and?

[cold willow]

if 25 ppl were 153 thats terrible

[royal lotus]

cuz its just on that fringe where u can max certain units, such as rimuru

[royal lotus]

yuha

like a couple days ago

[sullen hollow]

What does that have to do with this convo

[young dove]

kaguya needs monarch to be good?

[royal lotus]

nothing

was just a joke

[sullen hollow]

Exactly

[royal lotus]

😭

[royal lotus]

why u mad at me

whats ur argument btw

[young dove]

kaguya is good even wwithout monarch, dunno why the post claims that she isn’t

[royal lotus]

i didnt understand

[royal lotus]

mine?

[young dove]

who else

[royal lotus]

i didnt claim that

shes used alot in traitless wl

just not every floor

[sullen hollow]

It’s nerfed so u don’t have to grind 300 wl season

A full map nuke on placement is too unbalanced

[cold willow]

they just buffed scaling

mby not enough tho

[sullen hollow]

But they nerf it after reset

So it affects nothing

• ur not using kaguya nuke that early except worldlines anyway

[royal lotus]

they start u at a high floor now

so that doesnt matter

[royal lotus]

why?

not like it kills all the mobs

its just a boost in cash

i would argue kaguya dimensions r much more unbalanced

or bear spam

or yuha

[sullen hollow]

It kills mob for cash right?

[royal lotus]

yes but only kills the weaker ones

the weak variants off spawn

@deep ledge @glad stream wheres ma star

[sullen hollow]

But do u feel like it’s too op?

Spending 3.5k yen for a full map nuke with 1000%

[royal lotus]

i dont

[royal lotus]

see when u say it it sounds op but in practicality its really not that gamebreaking

more of just a convinience

kaguya dimensions r much more broken

[deep ledge]

Aura

[glad stream]

tufff

[royal lotus]

👿 where is my star

[quiet berry]

nah keep ts

[royal lotus]

theres pity now gng u can get her 😭

[cursive cloud]

hows the new u p d a te chat

[hushed sonnet]

okay just reset ur match then ? this wasn’t even a major issue with kaguya especially if u were competent enough to get wl LB, her actual issue is teleporting right onto other troops, so if ur about to sell a unit she sometimes just perfectly times to teleport onto it and u sell her on accident, but i mean that happens not a big deal, the nuke change was unnecessary, it also affects players outside of wl more than the 12 ppl who play wl to get t12

[royal lotus]

i think he mightve been joking 😭

[river phoenix]

It really doesn't affect anyone outside of wl

[hushed sonnet]

oh okay

[river phoenix]

also yeah, I was fully joking about that

[cursive cloud]

sigh....bow...

[royal lotus]

but im arguing it negatively affects wls as a whole

[royal lotus]

sighbow

[river phoenix]

[royal lotus]

pretty good

[daring solar]

ong

[river phoenix]

So did having her nuke on placement, apparently.

[daring solar]

who said ts

[quiet berry]

brah

[hushed sonnet]

idk i think it was unnecessary regardless, the state of wl will not change and all it did was make it slightly more tedious for ppl climbing for t12

[river phoenix]

I don't play anything comp because I don't care about it at all, so I have no room to speak

[timber pasture]

As someone who was kaguya carrier I need this back

[torpid roost]

Ts is not that deep gng

[torpid roost]

U didn't get t12

T13 merchant

[timber pasture]

Ok bro

[daring solar]

holy fraud

[royal lotus]

currently we have like 5-1 in favor of reverting for people that were t12 last season

only kamui doesnt want this

[river phoenix]

[torpid roost]

Does it really matter tho

[hushed sonnet]

dudes just here to be here 💔

[river phoenix]

I still think the change was for the better

Even outside of WL

I think having the nuke on placement was a little too strong

[royal lotus]

its 3500 yen

[torpid roost]

She's still worse then vsjw smh

[royal lotus]

u said urself this doesnt affect anything outside of wl

[river phoenix]

Correct

It really doesn't

[royal lotus]

yeah

[sullen hollow]

A bit on tourney ig

[royal lotus]

and we agree on that

[river phoenix]

That doesn't change the fact that I think it was too strong a tool to have regardless

[royal lotus]

ive never seen a strat that used it at the start 😭

[hushed sonnet]

but bear spam on placement isn’t nerfed💔 lit on par with her nuke on placement, both very broken

[torpid roost]

Ur profile just flashbanged me bre

[royal lotus]

i dont agree

[sullen hollow]

Bro must be in a very dark room

[royal lotus]

i think its just good qol

[sullen hollow]

What

[torpid roost]

It's almost 5 am I'm in a very dark room

[sullen hollow]

If it’s not strong why do u want it back anyways

[daring solar]

not rly gng

[royal lotus]

me the day before upd on wl

[royal lotus]

because its good qol?

[sullen hollow]

Yea I don’t have her

[royal lotus]

for traitless

[sullen hollow]

Yet

[torpid roost]

Lol

[hushed sonnet]

it made floors 10x less tedious, the luxury of being able to have her nuke off placement was a blessing wl players appreciated , now all what was done is make it tedious for us when the mode is already tedious enough 😭

[torpid roost]

I'm gonna try get t12 on wl traitless

[royal lotus]

for traited kaguya is used on every floor with or without the nuke change

[torpid roost]

First time doing wl lb kinda nervous

[royal lotus]

so why nerf something thats irrelavant for traits and negative for tl

[royal lotus]

gl

[timber pasture]

With the change I don’t see her being used outside of her buffed floors or windstorm

[sullen hollow]

How much does upg 4 cost anyways

[timber pasture]

Like 15-20k

Roughly

[torpid roost]

I'm pretty sure if u get her to upgrade 4 u can still max 1 other dps

[daring solar]

which isnt rly optimal

[torpid roost]

Ye

[daring solar]

especially on floors where shes nerfed

[torpid roost]

But devs are not changing ts

They never change stuff

[royal lotus]

24400 yen

not including placement cost

[daring solar]

thats why we make suggestions

[royal lotus]

then wtf is the point of suggestions

[deep ledge]

Nerf brisket

[torpid roost]

Idek tbh

[royal lotus]

https://tenor.com/view/actorindie-mexican-brisket-meat-food-gif-13254445

[torpid roost]

Have u seen a single suggestion about changing smth in the game actually happen

There might be but it's super rare

[royal lotus]

like 1 or 2

but most suggestions r kinda dumb

[torpid roost]

1 or 2 out of hundreds

[deep ledge]

When I'm 6 7 rrs deep and no monarch 🫲 😩

[torpid roost]

Gtfo

[royal lotus]

like its stuff the devs have confirmed will never be added or changed

[hushed sonnet]

there’s a NEW comp server for a reason, why not have a tester or someone of power come there or even DM mooik and post in announcements what we think?

[torpid roost]

Pyseph is known for not having common sense sometimes

[hushed sonnet]

i understand the devs dislike for the comp community, but not all of us are bad, and genuinely just want communication on things like this

[torpid roost]

I'm being too nice

All the time

He never has common sense

[royal lotus]

could make a whole suggestion for this

[torpid roost]

If pyseph does see this know that I am joking

[deep ledge]

He doesn't have common sense like 6 7% of the time 🫲 😒

[daring solar]

gng

[torpid roost]

Shut up 😭

[daring solar]

anyway cid cuffs had like 6-700 stars and its never getting changed

[deep ledge]

💀

[daring solar]

so...

suggestions are useless

[royal lotus]

sighbow

[hushed sonnet]

because that was already intended, this wasn’t and was a random change that should’ve been communicated on

[daring solar]

true true

both are regarded changes tho imo

[deep ledge]

😮‍💨 🏹

[royal lotus]

ngl tho if u really think abt it the cuffs were really just a 🥭 check

theres genuinely no other reason for it

[daring solar]

shocker

[hushed sonnet]

i don’t care for it, i got cid and birds and never touched it again

[royal lotus]

same

got my 50 birbs shiny cid and black spirits and gtfo

[deep ledge]

I got like 67 birbs or sum

[royal lotus]

i lowk gotta conserve

i corrupted so many shitty ones

just for vsjw

crit birbs

[daring solar]

can u guys go star my suggestion abt removing 1 money unit from the inf summer ltm

pls and and thank u

[timber pasture]

No 😂

[daring solar]

silence ur a cool person

such a nice community

[deep ledge]

Get his suggestion 6 7 down votes 🫲 ✌️

[daring solar]

yo vrt sighbow

[deep ledge]

Ok I'm done 🪫

[royal lotus]

next thing yk theyre modding sighbow

[deep ledge]

Gotta charge my phone it's at 6 7%

[daring solar]

jokes over

[deep ledge]

Ur right, doesn't work after like the 6 or 7 time

[torpid roost]

Bro shut upp

[daring solar]

🤓

[trim pollen]

🤖

[deep ledge]

💀

[royal lotus]

[deep ledge]

Can't even use my ragebait gif in here

[royal lotus]

bump

[cold willow]

so even more ppl aggre its just bad nerf 🥀

but its good nerf

trust me

[timber pasture]

Nuh uh

[royal lotus]

Bump

[quiet berry]

i kinda get the nerf but i also kinda dont

like the nuke was obv inasne for early

but at the same time stuff like bear spam is still kept in the game

[hidden moat]

333333333333333

[royal lotus]

it really wasnt that insane

at the highest floors it would only kill the weaker mobs

[quiet berry]

still instant income

[royal lotus]

yeah

just qol

not overpowered

[quiet berry]

gang 😭

this is not qol

[royal lotus]

how is it not

[river phoenix]

Completely screwing over the idea of farming up and balancing spending yen on units to defend vs spending on farms is a bit more than "just qol"

[river phoenix]

It's literally the same reason why monarch as a trait is so strong

[royal lotus]

its not "just qol" but it is qol

[royal lotus]

once again i have to repeat that it doesnt kill all the mobs

not to mention even without the nuke defending early game is just gonna be bear spamming

for traited*

[river phoenix]

Bear spam still costs more and doesn't return nearly as much

[royal lotus]

yeah but thats not the point ur making

what im saying is this change doesnt make defending early game have more strategy

so why not give us this qol

[river phoenix]

Because this isn't just qol

This is shortcutting a massive portion of farm upgrading vs defending that you wouldn't otherwise have as much access to because of how much that nuke did just on placement

[royal lotus]

yeah and im telling u that its gonna get shortcut anyways

through bear spamming

u can say its not gonna get shortcut as much but either way this is just more of an inconvinience

[river phoenix]

Except bear spam doesn't really shortcut it nearly as much because you're getting far less value in terms of economy vs how much you have to spend on sweating over bear spam

[royal lotus]

why does that matter

[cold willow]

All in all for reason nerf was made its just qol

[river phoenix]

Rather than just farming, placing kaguya, and pressing one button when you decide you want some more money to finish your farms and then place down the rest of your defense

[royal lotus]

all that does is result in less money from farming

meaning less options later on

[daring solar]

having is just more of an annoyance atp

we had it and enjoyed it

[royal lotus]

u still have to determine when to use it

[daring solar]

now it’s gone and life’s harder

[river phoenix]

Oh well

[daring solar]

gng loves this emote

[royal lotus]

well majority agrees this should be reverted

[daring solar]

poll it or smth

[royal lotus]

and i havent had any argument otherwise so far that i think is reasonable

[royal lotus]

😭 obv no one wants stuff to be nerfed

everyones always gonna be in favor of buff

unless its truly gamebreaking

which the nuke ISNT

[daring solar]

nah if it’s acc a toxic feature ppl would want it removed

that’s the whole reason they gave in update logs

said it was toxic

[royal lotus]

yeah

no reasoning

[daring solar]

which imo isn’t true

[cold willow]

Not true tho

[royal lotus]

well i should reword

[daring solar]

if it’s acc toxic ppl would vote no to adding it back

[cold willow]

But i think 90% from t32

Its change only for them anyway apparently

Ex stage doesnt exist

[quiet berry]

does this even like

i feel like this is worse for tl than traited

[royal lotus]

yeah

for traited it doesnt even matter

ur using kaguya anyways

and the nuke will kill even less

bump

[nocturne sundial]

Can someone explain why this nerf even happened? What was the wl meta which revolved around it?

[river phoenix]

Basically just farming until wave 6, placing kaguya, cycling to sand domain, and then using nuke to wipe most of the map and max farms

Because being able to defend at the front of the map at floor 330 something is not normal for how high the enemies scale

[nocturne sundial]

Hmm i see

[river phoenix]

The change had already been suggested by a top wl runner too, and it doesn't effectively change much outside the mode at all, so it's staying the way it is

[hushed sonnet]

well i mean it’s a vanguard her eesrly nuke is what helps define her as a worthwhile vanguard to bring on wl,this change won’t affect the anyone besides the guys who usually get t12 every season , it just made it inconvenient now for them, cuz let’s be real most of these ppl pushing wl got no chance cuz they don’t even know what their doing even if they have the best monarchs, plus 330 isn’t even that crazy even without kaguya, the weathers are just extremely easy besides maybe full moon and rain and that’s due to rng and annoyance (okay maybe love train due to passion and holy scarcity but jin mori should work now), i think it’s mostly a bigger inconvenience for the die hard wl lb players then anyone else and won’t change anything in a positive way

[hushed sonnet]

“by a” their not the only runner homie

[river phoenix]

Her nuke is like the last thing that defines her as a vanguard

[verbal knot]

the early nuke just defines her as a broken wl unit

[hushed sonnet]

most of the reaccuring t12 players do not like this change

[river phoenix]

Obviously not. But it shows that some comp players thought the meta with her was incredibly stale and more unbalanced than anything else in wl

[hushed sonnet]

there needed to be more communication about this if ur going to change her most defining aspect in wl (yes the domains are goated but the nuke made a lot of rooms very convenient)

[daring solar]

ong communication

[wanton cargo]

It is definitely stupid for a unit to get nerfed months after it's conception

[river phoenix]

It's not a matter of convenience, it was straight up fundamentally broken in terms of the usual game flow of balancing economy versus defense

[wanton cargo]

If this can happen to a vanguard it can happen to any unit, and that opens a whole another set of issues

[hushed sonnet]

okay but how is that fair ur gonna listen to one but the not the rest? seems unfair and to an outside view it’s kinda bias

[wanton cargo]

Plus stuff like this should've gotten sorted out at the drawing board when the unit was being created, not like 2 months after it came out.

[hushed sonnet]

the other ppl who regularly run t12 wl deserve to have their input heard too, not the the ppl who wanted a change only

[river phoenix]

Because at the end of the day, the devs and balancer have the final say in what balance changes should ship, and the testers are able to discuss those same states of balance and proposed changes

It wasn't about the t12 wl runners

[hushed sonnet]

yeah which is why this needed to be communicated first, not randomly thrown in an update later cuz 1 or 2 of the comp wl players wanted a change

[wanton cargo]

Yeah, nerfing units months after their release is a bad precedent.

[river phoenix]

It's barely a nerf

[hushed sonnet]

okay what is this about then? this just seems unfair and not well explained as to the main reason why this is changed, if the change is more inconvenient then helpful there should atleast be some explanation that could clear it up , so far i haven’t heard it

[hushed sonnet]

i agree it’s not to much of a nerf, but it can be a deciding factor of a room or not especially higher up, which could’ve just not been the case if the change wasn’t implemented

i don’t see how this change is at all positive

if u would like to explain i’d appreciate it but i just can’t see it

[royal lotus]

by some u mean ONE

[royal lotus]

doesnt wipe most of the map

[royal lotus]

what does this have to do with defending at the front of the map

[hushed sonnet]

especially if they have any sort of resistance too

[nocturne sundial]

How high was it realitically possible to climb last season wl with no Kaguya?

[timber pasture]

Traits of traitless

[nocturne sundial]

Traits

Coz iirc highest floor was 384 or smth b4 someone got like 400+

[royal lotus]

without kaguya 341 was the cap

[nocturne sundial]

Ic

[royal lotus]

where star

[static remnant]

1 single lb runner compared to about 4 in this suggestion alone against it

[timber pasture]

but apparently their opinion is stronger than ours just cause he's a tester

[hushed sonnet]

it’s prob kamui lol

[timber pasture]

it is

[royal lotus]

it is

[hushed sonnet]

makes sense

[royal lotus]

😔

[hushed sonnet]

ofc his word is higher than the rest of ours 🤷‍♂️ i’d like to hear from him why he wanted this

[royal lotus]

@warm oyster sane has some words for u

[hushed sonnet]

yeah homie explain this to me cuz i genuinely don’t see any positive aspect to this change , all this does is make rooms become more tedious

this overall won’t change the usually t12 either, it’s more negative than positive

[royal lotus]

u can also scroll up and read what he said before

[hushed sonnet]

oh i didn’t even know he spoke here

[timber pasture]

[royal lotus]

@hushed sonnet

🤤

[hushed sonnet]

alr saves me time

[tacit valve]

is the change really that bad 🦅

[royal lotus]

make sure ur paragraph doesnt get automodded 😭

[timber pasture]

It’s more so tedious

[royal lotus]

yes

[hushed sonnet]

just makes playing rooms less convenient now since if u want to use her nuke early cuz in some cases u need too, you’ll have to ignore farms and upg her now

[tacit valve]

Oh shucks

[nocturne sundial]

Well i dont rly do competitive wl to give an informed opinion but if one unit can make a difference of like 50 floors or more, there may be some merit to what the testers are saying.

[royal lotus]

farming in traitless without fortune or padoru is just next level torture without kaguya nuke 🥀

[hushed sonnet]

yeah this heavily impacts tl the most i’ll be real

oops

[royal lotus]

the thing is they already changed the floors

inf convergence starts at 250 for traits and 100 for traitless now

[royal lotus]

so saving time isnt really an argument anymore

[warm oyster]

also sorry for crashing out before, megumi was pmo

[tacit valve]

did kaguya nuke do 1000% of her dmg

[royal lotus]

ok but u realize this suggestion entirely goes against this

[daring solar]

ig he’s right
it was inevitably gna happen when kaguya leaves and she doesn’t have a replacement
ppl would complain

[royal lotus]

multiple t12 people have disagreed with this

[verbal knot]

yes

it still does

its just at upg 4

[tacit valve]

oh yeah thats prob bad cause shes expensive

[verbal knot]

eh its 25k for a 10x dmg nuke

[royal lotus]

the core point is that the majority of comp wl players believe that this change does not make the mode more fun

or less skillful

@warm oyster

i have yet to see a single person that was t12 on wl lb last season argue that this change was good except for u

[timber pasture]

Chill sane

[hushed sonnet]

alr ima be understanding for each point, you mention it only effects a smal portion of players (so usually t12 we can go as far as to say t32). with a change like this i saw no complaints about it within the comp server if anything ppl praised kaguya for her nuke alone so it was worth climbing with her and useable for 95% of the rooms (as a vanguard should be). i think contacting mooik and asking the comp server what they think (mostly listening to the comp wl players ofc) and what they had to say would’ve been a good idea instead of it being unspoken and random (it’s appreciated the change was after the season ended and not the middle or end tho ofc)

now for the “skillful part” can we be honest here say wl takes relatively no skill? all the nuke did was make early game less tedious and the late game of the level is the “skillful” part, also the nuke for tl is literally what can determine the game or not since ur using her for the early nuke and buffs for most rooms and not as a dps, traits on the other hand the change isn’t TOO crazy, but for tl this can and most likely will be very annoying to deal with now

sorry to tell u but the unfairness is gonna happen regardless, the pity helps for sure in getting the unit which if u get her that’s great (if u do tl) but for traits now u gotta get her monarch, the nuke change doesn’t change how unfair it is, this game is a gacha game there’s always gonna be unfairness , i feel like this is a cop out, ur on the same playing field on tl atleast but not for traits

mb for typos it’s 2am

[tepid thistle]

maybe they could just make her nuke scale with her upgrade
at upg 0 her nuke does 1x her dmg map wide so it's not used to abuse worldlines

[hushed sonnet]

if i could send voice messages here it would’ve been sent so long ago lol

[tacit valve]

peope will prob still complain

[royal lotus]

need this pinned

[royal lotus]

what 😭

her dmg stat increases with upgrade

so the nuke scales with that

[hushed sonnet]

why? she’s 100% achievable now due to pity? so in that aspect it’s not unfair , if they missed out on her that’s tuff luck and how limited time things work i’m video games, only unfair aspect would be in traits due to monarch

[verbal knot]

this would change nothing cuz it would still make the nuke not good for wl

[tacit valve]

just make her nuke on upg 1

[timber pasture]

If they made this change prior to the wl season there would’ve been minimal complaints

[tepid thistle]

[royal lotus]

yeah the issue is taking it away now just makes it feel so inconvinient

[hushed sonnet]

it’s like feeding a stray cat that’s comes to ur house, it gets used to it then after awhile u stop feeding it unless u make it come live with u (lowkey bad analogy but u get the picture lol)

[river phoenix]

That's a terrible analogy

[hushed sonnet]

it’s almost 3am let me be😭

i made sure to specify it’s bad

[royal lotus]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-2088247993237804628

😭

[hushed sonnet]

main point is, u have something already, then it’s randomly taken, and now only way to achieve it now is by going out of ur way for it, when it use to be RIGHT THERE

[verbal knot]

the other option was a wl reset near the end when we realized how crazy it was

[royal lotus]

"once u realized" my ass

theres a kaguya pity

shes needed for wl regardless

[hushed sonnet]

dawg this would’ve changed nothing the same players would’ve just climbed back up and kept their spots

only made wl players lifes worse in the process

[royal lotus]

fr

[hushed sonnet]

crazy to see one of the points is about fairness, but how is it fair the top wl players (the ones most affected by this) don’t get their say or even notice of this so they can atleast speak their minds on it?

[royal lotus]

@frosty sandal ⭐

[royal lotus]

@warm oyster

[static remnant]

Look if its fairness you want, just ban all limited units from comp modes

[royal lotus]

hell remove traited wl

[static remnant]

you managed to ban lagshooter from them so I doubt its that hard to implement

[royal lotus]

make it fair right

[static remnant]

that or add trading before rell seas comes out 💔

[hushed sonnet]

trading not even needed the required units HAVE PITY

so it’s not even unfair, grind the currency and ur set to climb tl

[static remnant]

will be needed in the future when she leaves, so for like the next season of wl, but yeah

[river phoenix]

Do you think this was done because she became too necessary to comp modes?

[hushed sonnet]

well that’s how limited time events in videos games work, if u weren’t here for it then that sucks for u, so does that mean the ppl who we’re here and playing should be punished because of that now?

[royal lotus]

doubt it

but its a good argument against people that complain kaguya is required for comp modes

[static remnant]

I mean you wouldnt be punished, you'll still have the unit and be able to use it, and have the advantage of not having to spend $$$ or other worth items to get the unit from trading

[river phoenix]

Good because that's not why

Y'all act like the slightest nerf is the end of the world

[static remnant]

anyways the discussion for trading is another thing, lets focus on the nerf and shit

[royal lotus]

im just saying its worse than before

can a man not make a suggestion

[static remnant]

Why is it that any slight critique is shut down by "its not that bad stop crying about it", we just want the game to be better man

[hushed sonnet]

u are tho? the unit u grinded for is being changed in a negative way due to other future players not playing the game at the time, how is that fair to the current players when they unit they grind for is changed negatively for the mode the are comp in?

[static remnant]

nerfing a unit cause 1 person complained about the strategy it caused, when the rest of the comp community liked the strategy, is a REALLY bad look for the game

[royal lotus]

comp side of the game has kinda been neglected for a long time too

like aint no way they kept the virgil skin for a 2nd season 😭

and didnt even tell us

[warm oyster]

xon said it was good

idk about akashi

[hushed sonnet]

i don’t expect you to understand no offense like you said u don’t play comp, you don’t see out pov and how well and convenient her early nuke was, i can promise u 95% of the wl t12 players wanted it to stay the same, because it made gameplay less annoying which is what players want when playing a comp mode even if it’s by a little

[royal lotus]

so 2-6?

still not really a good argument

[hushed sonnet]

u guys only do traits tho, u have to consider this is a massive change for tl

negative change ^

[warm oyster]

something taking no skill does not mean we should try to keep it skillless

[warm oyster]

a standardized change does not negatively impact 1 player more then another

although its a big change for traitless

its an equal one

[royal lotus]

and a very negative one

whereas it barely affects traits practically

[warm oyster]

i still dont really understand that point

like yea your gonna bring her anyway

[royal lotus]

because theres other skillless ways to defend early game anyways

[royal lotus]

ok

[warm oyster]

but you lose the nuke

how is that not a change

[royal lotus]

if u arent nuking

ur just bear spamming

[hushed sonnet]

but the point is the early game is already no skill most of the time u of ppl know this, only towards wave 8+ is when ur actually using ur brain most times, her nuke made things convenient even if it’s no skill, there wasn’t any skill anyway for the beginning of the match , now it’s just tedious

[royal lotus]

which u cant tell me is more skill

[hushed sonnet]

also what about my other points ?

i didn’t cherry pick so i’d like the same

[warm oyster]

what

[royal lotus]

trying to make traited wl a skill based gamemode is a futile endeavor, especially when it comes at the expense of traitless

[warm oyster]

bear spam is infinitely more skillful, if we wanna use that as an argument

[royal lotus]

not in terms of strategy

which is kinda this games whole thing

[hushed sonnet]

yeah well that’s a given, my point is about player convenience, this just makes wl grind a bit more annoying at the end of the day which yk isn’t what u want from ur players is what i hope

[royal lotus]

i mean i dont think bear spamming as a skill was ever supposed to be vital to the game

[warm oyster]

a leaderboard mode should not be a "casual" grind

[hushed sonnet]

how, i do this on my phone easily bro, we got ipad players on t12 it’s not hard at all nor skillful

[royal lotus]

the top floors will never be a casual grind

all it does is make the lower floors more convinient

obviously being at the top is never going to be easy regardless of this nuke

[hushed sonnet]

only thing that might take skill imo is being able to todo hella fast over a long period

[royal lotus]

because its equal to everyone

[warm oyster]

false equivalence

[hushed sonnet]

how? 😭

[warm oyster]

they literally were

lol

[royal lotus]

maybe for traited, but u cant blame the nuke for that

[warm oyster]

there was like 1 hard floor after 341

Yes, you can

[royal lotus]

thats just because it wasnt very competitive

not that many people pushed

[warm oyster]

how does players pushing equate to top floors being easy

[royal lotus]

the floor change already should fix the issue

[royal lotus]

because

if everyone went to 438

then top floors wouldnt be easy now would they

[warm oyster]

384 would ahve stopped 90% of ppl anyway

[warm oyster]

you are directly comparing 2 things that ahve varying degrees of skill, just because the difficult one is possible

[royal lotus]

yeah but my point stands

only reason it was easy to be t12 traited was because not that many people pushed

which i would argue is due to the absurd time requirement

which has already been fixed

so the nuke was never the issue

[jaunty prawn]

Damn you been arguing about this all day

[royal lotus]

well many other wl players want this

they counting on me ✌️

[hushed sonnet]

my point was if mobile and ipad users can do bear spam easily even tho it’s notoriously known to be eaiser to do on pc, how at all does bear spam take skill? it’s literally called bear SPAM, it’s a one trick wonder ur doing a single thing repeatedly, and it’s easily doable on any device i don’t see how this is a skill when anyone with a normal reaction time can do it

[royal lotus]

its skill in terms of ur hand movements and mouse control, not skill in terms of a td game which is strategy

[hushed sonnet]

i mean ig

if ur gonna take it like that then yes i agree

[royal lotus]

i mean ur never gonna be faster at bear spamming on mobile lets be honest here 😭

if u r thats hella impressive

[hushed sonnet]

ig yeah

[timber pasture]

Was the change ever this serious

[nocturne sundial]

Bear spam needs u to place, summon and sell vsjw repeatedly in a localized area while also managing your farm and other units...
whereas kaguya nuke is just a one button tap for a map wide nuke

[static remnant]

what if we revert the kaguya nerf for this season, to see if the new scalings simply fix the issue of wl being ass to play, and if kaguya nuke strat is truly cancer and annoying, next season we re-nerf her when a majority of the lb runners come to that conclusion

[static remnant]

You clearly haven't played av with your life on the line

[royal lotus]

the real problem was one person thought this was bad and it got changed

there should be a general consensus

[static remnant]

yes I also agree that this is the main issue rn

at first I just cared about a vanguard being nerfed months after their release, but now its that a single person can sway the devs that much

[royal lotus]

like whats the point of suggestions if ur taking 1 persons opinion over dozens

[hushed sonnet]

traits ur bear spam is when only the boss is alive most times so farms and everything else is irrelevant for the most part , i just focus on bear that’s it

[royal lotus]

sigh ... t13 ... bow ... ✌️

[timber pasture]

[royal lotus]

making it sound harder than it is 😭

[warm oyster]

i never said bear spam is skillful

i said more so then kaguya nuke

[nocturne sundial]

still harder than a kaguya nuke tbf

[royal lotus]

so u agree that this change barely affects wl meta

traited

and yet its a major annoyance for traitless worldlines

[sullen hollow]

It weakens everything

[royal lotus]

not by much

barely even takes off the overshield of 341 mobs

[royal lotus]

how is this an argument

"still harder than kaguya nuke"

either way its not skillful

so why nerf kaguya nuke when it doesnt much matter for traited when its such a detriment for tl

[hushed sonnet]

u lit said it’s varying degrees of skill to bear spam depending on what ur doing bear spam on

[nocturne sundial]

it's in regards to the comparison being made for the bear spam. You can argue neither is "skilful" doesn't mean its as easy to do

[royal lotus]

ok?

but why is something being easy to do so bad

[nocturne sundial]

just opening the summons menu and selecting a summon is more work than activating the nuke

[royal lotus]

its convinient for lower floors

and not too overpowered for higher floors

it opens up more options

for how u can use it

like multiple floors u would save the nuke for the end

[nocturne sundial]

I think the argument the testers are saying is about how the nuke pre nerf made her vastly better than a lot of the other units and invalidates a lot of the early defense.
The fact that everyone having access to it and making the grind more convenient still wouldn't address the fact that Kaguya is just leagues better than the other units in worldline and therefore might need a slight change to try other viable units.

[royal lotus]

except its not

kaguya is not the best wl unit

[sand crown]

@timber pasture totally agrees with this btw

[royal lotus]

vsjw and yuha r still better for traited

and for traitless kaguya isnt even used alot of the time

[nocturne sundial]

okay then why is it that 341 was the limit for traits then with no Kaguya

[royal lotus]

because everyone has yuha and vsjw?

if they couldnt use either of those the cap wouldve been another 50 floors lower at least

[nocturne sundial]

But Kaguya still helped people push by almost 100 more floors...?

[static remnant]

kaguya with both yuha and vsjw

[nocturne sundial]

so how is pre-nerf Kaguya not the best

[royal lotus]

and vsjw and yuha helped more than that?

[static remnant]

remove either yuha or vsjw, and kaguya doesnt help

[timber pasture]

U back in av

[static remnant]

its like a jenga tower, with yuha and vsjw at the bottom, and THEN after they carry hard then kaguya can elevate it further

[royal lotus]

⭐

[sand crown]

Indeed i am

[royal lotus]

@nocturne sundial

[nocturne sundial]

if you are getting 100 floors just with the help of 1 unit even with the other 2.. especially on those floors... she is def up there with those 2

[royal lotus]

341 wasnt possible without vsjw or yuha either

[static remnant]

yes shes good, but shes not the best

[royal lotus]

yes the game isnt balanced very well

[sand crown]

hi u pro

[royal lotus]

nerfing kaguya nuke does more harm than good tho

[static remnant]

if you could pick 2 units to bring with you, you'd pick yuha and vsjw first

[sand crown]

hi to u too arcane

[royal lotus]

hiii

[static remnant]

yes me pro, you pro?

[royal lotus]

even tho idk who u r

[static remnant]

tragic 💔

also spade how are you unverified

[sand crown]

fuck

thats why my name is spade only

[sand crown]

idk u neither

welp there goes my cool name

[royal lotus]

bump

[royal lotus]

bump

[royal lotus]

bump

[royal lotus]

bump

[royal lotus]

bump

[timber pasture]

B

[quasi maple]

https://tenor.com/view/batman-smh-shake-my-head-disappointed-upset-gif-4574548