Cid rebalancing/rework

[olive glen]

maxed out with monarch and lets just say averaging 5-6 hits for damae stacking

[glossy saffron]

It's not based on hits

It's per attack

[cloud herald]

This is like saying every footballer sucks because Ronaldo exists

[olive glen]

..same thing ?

[glossy saffron]

No

No it's not lmao

[cloud herald]

No not at all

[glossy saffron]

An attack can have 10 hits or it can have 1 hit

Smith's damage stacking is based per attack, not per hit

[olive glen]

is this not understood to be the ability or are u nitpicking for the sake of it

u get the point

[cloud herald]

Hits and attacks are just different things it's not really nitpicking

[eternal vortex]

with godly stats its about 50k dps if 6 attacks for the damage stacking
more if its the first 30 seconds after swaping in, and buffs help him out a lot

[cloud herald]

He reaches 50k?

That's pretty solid

[wicked pike]

max 42k-46k if i remember ( im not sure 💔 )

[olive glen]

50k dps factoring in the lower damage attacks pre buff stack or no

[cloud herald]

50k cone unknown with a solid nuke, if you're correct. I got told 46k was the average but it could just vary with map too

[glossy saffron]

That's just the overview stat for placement, no 40% damage bonus from P3

[eternal vortex]

50k dps after 6 attacks
i dont feel like doing the math to average out 6 attacks

[cloud herald]

Is aizen ass because his dps isn't "consistent" now

[olive glen]

so lets say the average is 46k

why are u using a 46k cone unit as a dps

when dante or yhwach exists

[cloud herald]

...?

[wicked pike]

then why you using goku or vegito as a dps

[olive glen]

when did i say this

[cloud herald]

Dante's dps without blackspirit was 50k dawg

[eternal vortex]

if its the first 30 seconds after he swaps in its 60k
if you buff him it increases even more
and hes a swap unit who has 2 nukes
with multiplicative dmg buffs which is very good

[wicked pike]

also he is a nuker bro

[cloud herald]

Granted it's significantly higher with spirit

[glossy saffron]

No familiar, no swap buff, no passive/stacking

[olive glen]

why even mention it then?

[cloud herald]

Because cid's dps is also significantly higher with a good birb

[olive glen]

john's nuke is nothing to write home about nor is it bridging the 30k dps gap he has with actual meta dps units

[olive glen]

not really

[cloud herald]

Yes really 💀

[olive glen]

it isnt as high as an increase compared to black spirit dante

[glossy saffron]

Yknow, funny enough

[olive glen]

not to mention the full aoe difference'

[cloud herald]

Its a potential 25% damage increase without accounting for crit at all.

[glossy saffron]

In testing, Smith did more damage than vergil with just blitz

Although I think that was before doppel finally got fixed

[olive glen]

with cc?

[eternal vortex]

def was before doppel was fixed

[olive glen]

oh

yeah that explains it

[glossy saffron]

Yeah, vergil got a freeze

[cloud herald]

Yeah doppelganger getting fixed is like double dps so

[glossy saffron]

smith got nothing

But even still

Smith clears most everything else in test

[cloud herald]

I don't really know why we want cid to powrcreep the 2nd best unit in the game anyway

[glossy saffron]

I think Vergil is the only one that did more

[olive glen]

and i can literally guarantee this is without considering the lower damage attacks prior to the buff stacking

[eternal vortex]

no it is

[cloud herald]

Blitz doesn't really go as well on most units as it does on john smith

[olive glen]

really?

[glossy saffron]

It's literally a total damage test against a boss dummy

[eternal vortex]

yea
but once again this was before doppel actually worked right

[glossy saffron]

It has to be with the low damage attacks because it always starts at 0 for every target

[eternal vortex]

blitz is suboptimal on smith anyways
his nukes dont scale with spa

[cloud herald]

Yeah I don't doubt his dps with Blitz is higher than Dante's simply because of trait synergy and whatnot

[glossy saffron]

Doppel getting fixed makes vergil clear cid

[cloud herald]

Raw dps wise though

It'll have a way bigger impact

[glossy saffron]

But Smith still cleared everything else

[cloud herald]

For a boss just walking through his range

[olive glen]

yeah that explains why

[eternal vortex]

compared to dante yea
but thats cuz dante has a built in spa for dt

[glossy saffron]

Give him some slows and stall and he becomes way stronger

[olive glen]

if its a boss with likely low movement speed, paired with cc then obviously hes going to be higher than everyone else

[eternal vortex]

current vigil vs smith vigil is around 50% more dmg dealt to a boss than smith
but well vigil's whole thing is being a boss shredder

[slow wind]

naruto rework whwen

[cloud herald]

Even putting that calc aside idk why you're talking like 46-50k dps in a cone is bad

Like what

[wicked pike]

i think yall forgot ts

[olive glen]

never said it was bad but for a pure dps unit it isnt meta i can tell u that much

[cloud herald]

Its not meta relative to what, fucking Vergil? 💀

[eternal vortex]

and also can swap into a around 40k dps full aoe as long as it got 200 takedowns

[olive glen]

literally any other actually meta dps unit that likely also has utility outside of just dps

such as yhwach

[glossy saffron]

I'm done arguing in here for now tho

[eternal vortex]

what
yhawch is just dps

[olive glen]

???

[cloud herald]

Nobody uses yhwach to buff bruh

[noble sage]

cid is perfect jsut delete this shit now

[eternal vortex]

yhwach's whole thing is being a insane dps

[gloomy reef]

if they do this im not gonna use any rrs on cid 💔

[wicked pike]

💔

[cloud herald]

Read right under

Yhwach is also just another arguably top 3 unit idk why you want a raid unit to measure upto him

[raw flint]

We needed the fun for longer 🥀

[eternal vortex]

yhwach is just massively overtuned
that mf had no business being that good

[gloomy reef]

bc yhwach is limited bro

[cloud herald]

The reasons you've given me for john smith not being worth using so far are "dante and yhwach are better"

[olive glen]

yhwach having support, being full aoe and having substantially higher dps is the problem

[cloud herald]

No he ain't

[wicked pike]

wait yhwach is limited?

[cloud herald]

What support dawg nobody uses yhwach for support

[raw flint]

Yhwhc is not limited lol

[gloomy reef]

really?

are rifts just gonna be there forever or smth

[cloud herald]

And again Yhwach is a top 3 unit you reckon cid should've been asking good as him?

[wicked pike]

😭

[raw flint]

Unless they changed their mind he isn't limited

I clearly remember them saying once they add a new rift it will be like br where they interchange each week

[olive glen]

wrong, my actual points were

• cid doesnt even have meta dps damage
• cid has no support
• cid isnt cost effective

[gloomy reef]

thats cool then

[olive glen]

yeah take one out of like 10 examples and nitpick it

[gloomy reef]

i didnt wanna get him bc i thought he was limited ig ill get yhwach now

[cloud herald]

Cid has meta dps damage

[olive glen]

no he does not

[cloud herald]

Yes he does

[eternal vortex]

why wouldnt you get him anyways😭
hes so good

[cloud herald]

Show me calcs for current dante dps and we'll talk 👍

[olive glen]

meta dps damage is choy, yhwach, vsjw, vergil, gogeta, etc

[kindred wind]

This thug right here is lying

Don’t get him

[olive glen]

everybody know black spirit dante is like 70k dps why am i doing allat

[wicked pike]

bro really want a unit that have meta dps and nuke at same time

[dusty jewel]

vsjw in question

[wicked pike]

bro stfu get out

[glossy saffron]

You vastly underestimate the importance of buffs on cid as well. Because most of his damage is % on % on %, and multiplicative shit gets crazy

[cloud herald]

Choy hits like 50k outside of inf. Yhwach usually sits at 60k dps. Vergil is an anomaly, gogeta is a vanguard and costs 180k

[olive glen]

johns nuke isnt all that big dawg stop gassing it up

[dusty jewel]

I'm not wrong though bud

[wicked pike]

no vsjw get outtt

[dusty jewel]

blah blah kid

[gloomy reef]

i thought he was gonna get nerfed one day bc i thought he was limited

[noble sage]

bro cid is op dont nerf / buff he already got buff heavy with the full map nuke

[wicked pike]

im not kid !!

[dusty jewel]

ok mb

[noble sage]

and 25% extra each swap

[eternal vortex]

Sadly yhwach meta is here to stay

[gloomy reef]

swap itself is a very useful mechanic

[cloud herald]

Before any idiot comes at me over yhwach dps please go test out his dps with 4 units in range and 30% damage from passive, nobody fucking uses him with 30 rares

[olive glen]

monarch choy is like 63k dps (80k to max) and like 74k with deadeye bro, ywhach sits at 60k dps (15k higher than cid) WHILE being ful l aoe and cheaper

[short egret]

wsp gmoney

[wicked pike]

at this point bro trying to rage bait us

[eternal vortex]

Gazelle🤑

[short egret]

https://tenor.com/view/lebron-james-nba-handshake-celebrate-success-gif-4912106

[olive glen]

maybe actually contribute to the argument rather than just saying im ragebaiting for no reason

[dusty jewel]

If you want to make use of the nuke now you have to max out cid to let the swap count

[cloud herald]

50k dps on a regular corner, 54.3k dps on fate corner, 52k dps on Shibuya corner

Dk where you're getting 63k dps but alr

[wicked pike]

swap still useful anyway

[dusty jewel]

only makes him really reliable in long runs like inf or maybe a little bit for ant but that's it

outside of that hes still solid

[eternal vortex]

Almost max
2nd to last upgrade

[cloud herald]

Yhwach is also just an exceptionally stupid unit that shouldn't have gotten through testing because jeez

[dusty jewel]

Yeah same thing

[wicked pike]

yeah because he legit for long run only

[dusty jewel]

that long spa on lord of shadow is gonna hurt

[short egret]

i friggin hit monarch pity for yuha

pmo

[cloud herald]

Wraps

[wicked pike]

f2p or p2w 💔

[short egret]

f2p

[wicked pike]

respect bro 💔

[gloomy reef]

still good and swap is useful bc it gets rid of debuffs

[olive glen]

yeah the devs obviously made certain units too strong, which is part of the reason why john is so underwhelming

not sure what possessed them to buff vergil

[cloud herald]

It wasn't a buff it was a fix

[dusty jewel]

Yeah which is why i said outside of all that hes still amazing/solid

[dusty jewel]

yeah they say that however every nerf/buff has to come up with a lie and them saying "fix"

[cloud herald]

Anyway compared to most secrets besides fucking yhwach, john smith is a better dps unit

[eternal vortex]

Almost all of them are actually just how they were supposed to work😭

[cloud herald]

No Vergil doppleganger being weird was marked as a bug like 2 days into upd

[short egret]

i love yhwach

[wicked pike]

im about to hit monarch pity on my vergil 💔

[eternal vortex]

Cid is the only recent unit change that wasn't always how the unit was meant to work

[gloomy reef]

i feel like yhwach is only rlly gonna be used if u only have 1 monarch with it being yhwach

or tourney

[cloud herald]

Vergil is kinda in that category?

[eternal vortex]

How so

[cloud herald]

Doppleganger not getting the buffs from transformation and attacking in a random ass aoe was intentional?

[olive glen]

i mean if cid isnt top 5 dpses in general, then he most definitely isnt top 7/8 in a broad category such as "outside of inf"

[eternal vortex]

They weren't
Hence why they were fixed

[cloud herald]

Yeah so doesn't he fall under than category like cid

Ig he's not as extreme

But a big part of his kit just didn't work

[eternal vortex]

Outside of swaps counting before unlocking ability, Cid was working as intended
He was just undertuned and got buffed because of that

[cloud herald]

Makes sense

[gloomy reef]

full range nuke, top 10 dps, can be unknown element, swap unit. hes top 5

[cloud herald]

I heavily disagree with your placement of saber, lancer etc over him

While the monarch dependent point is sorta fair

That's just how it is for some units

Aizen is ass without monarch and top tier with it, same for gogeta

[gloomy reef]

only untis overall better than cid are yhwach, vergil, dante, vsjw

maybe im missing one tho

[cloud herald]

I like to compare units using their ideal traits, even if it's kinda unfortunate for a lot of people

[cloud herald]

Aizen gogeta are better, under the assumption of ideal traits

[olive glen]

full range nuke (not usable outside of infinite), "swap unit" like that says anything, "top 10 dps" barely, he does have unknown i can give u that

[wicked pike]

he back

keep going yall

ts is fun

[olive glen]

i can see u disagreeing with lancer but i dont see how u would think john is better than saber outside of inf

unless its one of those gamemodes where u literally need unknown

[gloomy reef]

nuke is usable in 15 wave gamemodes. swap gets rid of debuffs but ig it doesnt rlly matter since john is unknown

[dusty jewel]

you're gonna want to get him to that ability fast then to stack up that dmg

if it's for smth hard obviously

[olive glen]

nuke is not usable in wave 15 with the upcoming extra nerf they're giving him

especially if u dont have monarch

[gloomy reef]

eh. cid > aizen even with monarch but gogeta better than cid with monarch overall

[dusty jewel]

still is just not that much dmg

[cloud herald]

Because saber as a dps unit is a tiny ass circle, has less dps, and is vulnerable to ailments.

[gloomy reef]

what upcoming nerf is he getting

[cloud herald]

No 💀

[dusty jewel]

he prob means this nerf
Fixed swaps towards Lord of Shadows' All Range Atomic ability counting even before unlocking the ability

[olive glen]

nuke scaling is getting capped at 1000% outside of infinite

aka the worst balance change oat

[wicked pike]

confirmed yet?

[cloud herald]

Aizen has more average dps over a full aoe and he's got ailment immunity, he's certainly a better unit than cid with monarch. Without monarch it's very very one sided.

[olive glen]

one of the testers said its planned im pretty sure

[gloomy reef]

aizen is expensive and relies on his passive which is only active for a couple seconds and u wont be able to kill a high hp boss with only aizen monarch even with ability so cid is better

[wicked pike]

who

[cloud herald]

Wtf would you even do to ensure he doesn't ruin wl/tourneys or any progressive gamemode while being meta in inf

[olive glen]

gurtresonant

[cloud herald]

Why do you think I said "average dps"

Valk

Is a major balancer

He said it

[olive glen]

not sure but giving him average nuke scaling is absolutely not it

he absolutely is too strong rn though

[gloomy reef]

cids nuke puts him above aizen with monarch

[cloud herald]

It being smth like 1200% wouldn't satisfy you either

[cloud herald]

..? You mean john smith nuke?

[gloomy reef]

idk i dont have cid evo

[cloud herald]

Not particularly considering aizen's ability is also a nuke that blocks enemies for 15 seconds

So

[gloomy reef]

around 2.7m total dmg that monarch aizen can do to a high hp boss. cid could definitely do more with nuke

[olive glen]

yeah, mainly because the nuke scaling increases so high now that they need to keep the cap low coz stuff like 3000% isnt difficult to reach

i just dont agree with the buff at all

[cloud herald]

Should be more than 2.7m usually and no, cid doesn't do more, his nuke is literally gonna be called at 2.6m

[cloud herald]

Buff was needed

He was useless in inf

Now he's top 3 for it

[gloomy reef]

cid feels like he can do over 5m dmg with nuke if used right

[cloud herald]

No

Literally gonna be a 1000% cap

[gloomy reef]

hes not capped rn tho

[cloud herald]

So unless you're gonna Transcend the game's code

[olive glen]

needed yes but making it even worse than it was previously outside of inf wasnt needed

[cloud herald]

Yeah "rn"

[gloomy reef]

current cid> aizen monarch

[olive glen]

tf kinda point is this

[gloomy reef]

talking about the present not the future

[dusty jewel]

Putting a cap on the ability just makes him useless even for inf then brother

[cloud herald]

That's mostly irrelevant since you were way better off using john smith anyway

[gloomy reef]

hes still better than before tho

[cloud herald]

There won't be a cap for inf

Only for progressives

[dusty jewel]

ok that's good

amazing

[dusty jewel]

yeah def

[gloomy reef]

i wonder if he gonna have a cap for pvp

[olive glen]

you could previously get to 3000%+ scaling in wave 30 now thats not even possible

[gloomy reef]

considering one of the modifers takes away a unit

unless it wasnt intentional

[cloud herald]

I've never personally seen him build this much

[glossy saffron]

Here's a sheet someone did for his percentages and stuff

so y'all can see how much it ramps up

[cloud herald]

Usually you're gonna be 2.5m from now on

[olive glen]

ive gotten there with a decent black spirit in rifts

[cloud herald]

In inf it's obvious, he's the best unit outside of jinwoo probs

Rifts are wave 20

[olive glen]

right

it feels like wave 30 coz of how far u place but u get the point

it just kills cid's viability outside of inf even worse than it does before which isnt a change i think is necessary

[cloud herald]

I don't see a way to rework/ buff him that keeps him inf meta and doesn't permanently ruin wl and tourneys

Other than what we're currently getting

So I'm just not gonna complain too much

[glossy saffron]

Cid's nuke before outside of infs was just completely unusable tbh

[cloud herald]

It was unusable in inf too

For all intents and purposes

[glossy saffron]

With the cap, it at least lets it do something while being reusable still and not break the game

[glossy saffron]

Well yeah but that was just a given

[cloud herald]

Mhm

[olive glen]

not really

[cloud herald]

Maybe they could've made it percentage based damage but that just seems like a bad long term idea to me

And that's the only other way I can think that ensures usefulness in inf and prevents absurdity in other modes

[glossy saffron]

SJW's arise is already enough

%HP gimmicks are an absolutely terrible design in games like these

[cloud herald]

Yeah I agree

[glossy saffron]

Because it becomes impossible to ever powercreep or balance properly

[tight stratus]

I mean gilga is fine

[cloud herald]

Maybe they can make it 2000% nuke instead of 1000%

Gilg's execution is just very niche tbh

[tight stratus]

Yet useful

[glossy saffron]

Because Gilg relies on you actually getting down to that damage threshold anyways

Which is still strong

But not as impactful

[cloud herald]

Yeah not nearly as absurd as smth like vsjw summons

[tight stratus]

I mean they did fix mana cost on arise scaling so he strictly for bosses rn

[olive glen]

genuinely hate vsjw hes so unhealthy for the game

[wicked pike]

ts finally end

happy ending

[kind mortar]

sybau

[tender grail]

is cid not getting capped then

[wintry cliff]

no

[cloud herald]

He ain't?

That's alright ig

Though I hope this doesn't shift the meta to stall bs

[wintry cliff]

didnt they say that it only starts to count after max upg

[cloud herald]

Yeah but valk said he was gonna add a 1000% cap to the nuke outside of inf too

[wintry cliff]

they didnt mention in logs idk

[cloud herald]

Yeah it hasn't happened yet I'm just saying valk said it was gonna happen

Above in this thread

[final dome]

Bbg

How much cid nuke does now maxed out passive?

@cloud herald

[slow wind]

rework diavolo

[cloud herald]

Well if the 1000% cap comes out then it would be around 2.6m

[final dome]

U talkin abt monarch or normal

@cloud herald

[cloud herald]

Monarch ofc

[inland spindle]

ANYTHING BUT MONARCH

[narrow cypress]

The behavior regarding updates is just so inconsistent man