Making Harpies more Unique, and Fun.

[lofty prawn]

So Currently Harpies are probably the worst species meta wise, they Unique features all lack any practical use, like mimic and flying or are an active weakness like breathing significantly faster and being super weak, being able to be just instantly picked up and not being able to escape when picked up.

Being so weak is actually one of the best things about Harpies aside from beings the Objectively cutest witch can not be argued.

Anyways I think it would be cool to make Harpies even more Fragile but offset that with unique strengths, basically make Harpies take significantly more blunt damage specifically to the limbs, but also im general, so being hurt more when hit, running in to peeps or running in to walls.
Having it be easier for them to brake bones.

To ballance, Harpies could have Birds eye toggle like binoculars witch you can still use guns, move fast or so do things well using.
Also tying in with the disadvantages, could make a stamina system for Harpies where Harpies have max higher stamina and stamina regeneration when health, but loose max stamina and regeneration speed as they brake bones.

Over all this would give Harpies a unique niche where they excel at ranged both for combat but also just threat detection, amd excellent mobility at the cost of being hopeless on the front line of danger as they are highly incentivized to avoid melee range at all costs as taking damage with significantly weaken and slow them. As it eats away ay their stamina.

This would essentially make Harpies snipers or scouts in combat roles, the polar opposite to Omni berserker role or Diona tank role, yell also differentiating from Rodentia assassins, thief or stuff, among other more fragile species.

[coarse epoch]

how much faster would they break bones

[snow yew]

@warped zodiac

[warped zodiac]

I’m more of the mind that we should expand on more non combat oriented buffs

Like my voice recorder pr for them

Cause with how movement works right now if we buff harpies in combat they will be broken

[old herald]

What if we make harpy’s have an explosive brain chip that blows their head into a fine red mist when they surpass their limit of 30 words per shift

[lavish notch]

The cycle continues

[lofty prawn]

? Not sure what you mean, how movement works right now ?
The ability that would help in both combat and threat avoidance, I recommended is basically just seeming farther? At the cost being made of glass.

[warped zodiac]

Combat is extremely movement based right now especially with sprinting

The ability to sprint around a corner shot a shotgun and sprint back around is extremely powerful

Also for a race as funny as harpies I would much rather have abilities that affect them in RP situations purely over combat

[warped zodiac]

Oni moment

[lofty prawn]

Kinda alot, though I dont have a specific value that is something that would need to be looked in to, I remember on frontier station being a harpy and almost dying from boxing gloves.

@warped zodiac So it the issue then more with buffing harpies max stamina? I'm not seeing how seeing farther related to what you said?

Also I see Harpies as a RP focus species already, they are possibly the hardest to survive as or defend your self as already, someone can literally just pick you up carry you off to somewhere and snap your neck with out you being able to do anything.
All their abilities are currently only useful in an RP sence.

However I see weakness as something that helps to encourage RP, over all I think what I proposed is a nerf, making harpies fragile to the point a carelessly could easily hurt them, and loose max stamina as they take damage.

[coarse epoch]

wouldnt this mean harpies are even more abusable
like
an oni could probably one shot break your bones if its too high

[lofty prawn]

The first sentence does not sound like a negative to me...
Make harpies more abusable, that kidna forces Oni to have to mind there strength honestly if there not an antag.
But likewise make Harpies more abusable and less threatening at close range maybe antags will be more willing to use intimidation on harpies... Hopefully...
Provided antag players are not souly murder hibos, in my mind it encourages threatening, and coercion, and encourages harpies to being more susceptible to it.
If its mainly blunt weakness, harpies still have a chance to survive from range and to things like carp or spiders too as they do slash or piercing instead, as do most gun, well lasers do heat, so.

But captain, Hos or sec Harpies would have to be alot more thoughtful about charging into melee... to be fair, I've learned as Bso, that captain often don't think at all as they charge a dragon with a dozen carp with no sec backup...

[warped zodiac]

Honestly I would just buff harpy stamina without any of the rest

Give harpies some more esoteric bird related abilities instead

I also don’t mind with harpies being easier to bully

[serene pecan]

wow guys my furry larp race isnt strong enough pls buff pls pls pls!!!!!!

[lofty prawn]

That was kinda the idea, the whole idea was based of birds have great vision and their unique respiratory/skeletal system.

Anyways I would take making harpies more fragile for nothing to balance it.

[warped zodiac]

Depends on the bird for example hawks fucking suck at seeing

Or well at night

But so be careful if you do bounty a buff for them

We don’t want another oni cycle of buffs and nerfs

[lofty prawn]

Hawks the birds that inspired the expression Hawkeye for having exceptional aim...
In generally every bird has better vision compared to humans, including chickens, but yeah not all birds can see at night well, that is more to do with night vision being a specialization, not all birds or even most birds do not have a tapetum lucidum membrane, aside from owls, frogmouths and potoos.

[fast heath]

I just want the bird race to be a full bird and not 80% bird

[clear flame]

We love species buff slop. "I play this species, that means they need to be buffed". Meanwhile GOAT Yowie species:

has no players playing them
nobody cares about them
nobody thinks of buffing them
And that is incredibly based

[fast heath]

monke

[lofty prawn]

I don't think anyone is thinking "I play this species, that means they need to be buffed" rather people who are enjoy paying as a particular species are more likly to be passionate in regards to it, some who never plays a species is not going to have any interest in improving its experience, unless it is so Overpowered to the extent that effects others or causes envy in others.
Someone who plays as an Oni, but gets wrecked by an Oni in melee or grappling, may complain and say their Overpowered and need to be nurfed.
Or someone may see an IPC, who is immune to many treats and the need to eat or drink and be envious and complain IPC are Overpowered.

Meanwhile someone who is passionate about Oni is both more likly to just want to buff them, but far more likely to want to make them more fun and interesting to play as witch may include introducing weakness and counters.
Or just culture things like the sake gord.

[clear flame]

I'll take the bait.
Counterpoint 1, image related.
Counterpoint 2. Many players derive fun from being powerful, so of course they want buffs.
Oni/IPC are the worst offenders because most of their changes are combat related (Flat damage increase or innate armor increase)

[lofty prawn]

Mind you my proposition is actually make them substantially weaker and punishing taking damage with reduced stamina, well also providing a unique ability witch is niche to ballance it, if harpies are made completely glass and weak in melee, allowing them to see farther to have a better chance at avoiding melee essentially.

Also in regards to enjoying being overpowered, I actually enjoy playing as an undergod, being weak and helpless relatively, I also would enjoy just dying non stop though.

[clear flame]

In combat - speed is everything. Who cares that you get 30% blunt damage increase if you can just put 2 enforcer shots into people before they react. Look for example at miniature sized moths who get moonbots round start and are impossible to shoot at.

[lofty prawn]

Essentially the main "buff" I proposed is birds eye or eagle vission or whatever you would call it, see a bit farther.

Then in regards to a double edge higher max stamina, but loosing max stamina whenever you take damage, notably blunt and piercing, creating a large insensitive to avoid melee at all costs, as, as soon as someone gets in melee range you are fucked and may not be able to escape or fight back as you loose your stamina to do so.
Over all I feel it is only a buff if your skilled enough to never get hit.

[clear flame]

Also, flat stamina increase is never good idea, even if there is some mechanic attached to it. It fucks with stunbaton/disabler balancing and everything involving stunmeta.

[lofty prawn]

I never said to buff their speed only their max stamina both to ballance loosing stamina on damage, but also just to resemble their bird biology more, you could also reduce their speed and disable flying as you accumulate damage too.

Also in regards to moths vs harpy mobility as is currently, moths have significantly higher burst speed witch is made more potent in 0G, harpies flying has a slow start and builds speed to a point in 0G, in normal gravity moth still has a very fast dash, well harpy flying is just worse then sprinting unless the floor is glue or lube, as flying is not really faster then sprinting, takes alot more stamina and has much less control sacrificing your ability to make sharp turns or switch directions quickly.

[lofty prawn]

Make them take more stamina damage from weapons, or maybe you could find other ways like to lower stamina costs, or regen speed.
The main idea is just birds have significantly better stamina when other animals due to their respiratory system but as a result its also much more delicate and prone to failure if damaged.

Not only do bird whole respiratory system get compromised by a broken bone, but injuring can expose there respiratory system to leathal infection, and/as such there bones repair brakes faster to try to restore respiratory integrity and reduce the time its exposed to infection from the outside world, but they heal far far weaker, never regaining full strength really.

@clear flame I did also mention when I was replying to Xeve, that I would take just making harpies more fragile with nothing to offset it.

Anyways I also just thought cuz the talk of use shotguns at close range and stamina damage from buttons being an issue if max stamina was improved at all, but anyways.
Harpies could take recoil from shooting due in normal gravity, due to their light weight.
And also Harpies should be more susceptible to stun batons anyways, so make them take more damage from them anyways even there stamina is not rework to be more bird inspired.

[lofty prawn]

Just looked though the stuff on github, zombies actually take 2.00 brute damage of all 3 types, anyway rodentia and harpy both have 1.15 modifiers for all brute, I would try making harpies take 2.00 blunt, and 1.20 puncture maintaining the 1.15 slash, and go from there.

[warped zodiac]

The issue isn’t wether it’s balanced it’s that more combat related buffs and nerfs are kind of boring no offense

[lofty prawn]

I don't take offense, its just that outside of damage output modifiers, nothing is exclusive combat or non combat except for things like like harpy mimicry witch is exclusively non combat related.
Almost every other stat or ability effects survivor both in and out off combat, from not needing food, to not having blood, to breathing faster or slower, taking more or less damage, or seeing in the dark or seeing further.

a pacifist Oni is still good at rescue as they can easily pick up or drag, contrasting Harpies, I feel like a broken record at this point but seeing further is not exclusively a combat skill, it is niche to begin with being useless in confined spaces or around corners, or stuff. Aside from offering a combat advantage at long ranges though, it is a general survival skill that would allow, anyway to see danger or just watch or keep watch further out, so well Hop sits in there office for example can see the nukie down the hall and nope out before they get there.

That aside I've mentioned multiple times I would be content with a nerf to durability either out anything else and everyone is still calling that a combat buff...