Antag Creep is real thread

[storm thicket]

More antags can perma-stunlock you or insta-kill you than none

Throw examples in this thread
Some examples of mine,

• Cosmic Heretic
• Ling's Hard Grab
• Geurilla + CQC (You cant fight back in this one, literally[as in literally])
  I think theres 1 or 2 more antags/strategies that share that infinite-stunlock.

People say bola, flashbang, and group fighting, but they rarely work. Group fighting makes it worse most of the time.

You fellas might have better ideas on how to handle this (nerf / buff)

[unique basin]

About the CQC necksnap, i would like that it isn't removed. But it should take victim armor value as percentage, aka gamble. So if victim has 40% helm armor value, then it should be 40% chance to fail. No helmet just give this 100% interaction

[ivory oar]

surviving or dying on a coinflip sucks ass fuck no
also @storm thicket does emagged xenovac count as one

[storm thicket]

ive never encountered it to be honest

[unique basin]

Better than being necksnapped 100% of the time

[eager oyster]

Isn’t that a guaranteed hard stun?

[thin holly]

How can a cosmic heretic stun lock you? They can keep you star marked, but not stunned

[mild pendant]

if they use the wide spread star tile ability.. and your star marked in the middle of it, you litterly can not fucking moved, ive played only cosmic herritic and i will say, its op as shit, and easy to do

[thin holly]

yeah and that's the point of the path, it's the crowd control path

you can still shoot normally while in there and bullets don't collide with the star tiles

plus they get no damaging abilities to make up for it

[spice forge]

Ash is the crowd control path in 13

[thin holly]

yeah and this is 14

unless you want to switch them out then go bounty or code that

as is that's the crowd control one so ofc it can stop people

[storm thicket]

bump

[blazing whale]

For changelings:

I think they should mostly go at-least early-to-middle, completely stealthy
Until late-game when a changeling has evolved a TON and consumed a bunch of people, a squad of security should be able to pretty cleanly take them out if the ling gets cornered

The issue with this is that sprinting (ew fuck i hate sprinting remove it please GOD) makes gameplay a lot faster so the more stealthy aspects become a lot more difficult
Like, if you don't kill someone instantly? Sorry buddy they've ran across the station in 2 seconds

Antagonists that are solo should NOT be able to fight a properly organized well-equipped security team + a crew that works together right out of the gate

Like, nukies are a strike team, they should have to have a plan, sabotage stuff, and whatnot or else it'll be really fucking difficult (Warops are different, thats full-on team combat which is blah?)

However; at the same time, security shouldn't instantly destroy all possible antagonist activity. There should be room for people to act, slow travel times, issues with communication, etcera etcera. Though that is difficult to not always have someone in reach because with sprinting you can FUCKING RUN AT MACH 3 ACROSS THE STATION!!! AHHH!!!!

Traitors; for example, should struggle to be able to kill everyone. They shouldn't be able to buy massive fucking guns to kill people, its more interesting if they have to somehow hit armory or get guns from cargo and use the equipment they can get from their jobs (again, thank you traumaa)

It feels like goob has become less of a space station roleplay game and more of a pvp game which sucks

[brisk ocean]

The star field lasts longer than the cooldown of the ability itself

[haughty plover]

antags have to fight sec and, let's be honest with ourselves here, crew validhunters. Not to mention all command members have some form of potent self-defense tool. Then there's the BSO.
Antags having powerful tools is fine.

[storm thicket]

-# local Big-Antag™ agent after being paid 25 shillings and 1 goob coin

[haughty plover]

I just died to a single secoff with a kramerer who managed to land all their shots so erm. yeah bro I think sec is fine, if not overtuned. (blood red hardsuit)

[clear dawn]

We’re not talking about bloodred hardsuits here, the lings claw and cqc are the major issues presented. Were you using CQC fighting the officer?

Come to think of it, I’ve also seen some MAJOR bullshit with the void and blade heretics in particular. I’ve seen one blade heretic kill 5 officers working together before ascension.

[haughty plover]

Between how I was pinged here and the title of the thread, I just kinda shrugged. As things are now though...
I think heretics deserve all the bullshit they have access to.
Guerilla is ok
arm claw is not ok, nor is god hand
CQC necksnap needs to go back to not dealing like 200 dmg instantly. Used to just set someone to dead and you could fib em, now it takes too much effort to fix the damage.

[ocean fulcrum]

If something does “death instantly” it goes into two categories- Execution (which is what neck snap falls under, and should therefore be SLOW), or Explosion (which admittedly gets nerfed every three minutes)

[tough halo]

Heretics are a snowball role and if they don’t have a RCH TH TRTH then theyre just never gonna win because you can’t just go up to someone and go “h-hey… the blacksmith says I have to put you on some graffiti and kill you… can you just come with me please 👉 👈 “

[storm thicket]

antags like heretics arent meant to be easy, since as you said, they're a snowball to turn into a station-killer.

but rn all you gotta do is R'CH and you guaranteed yourself 5 kills

[tough halo]

Have you played heretic at all

It ain’t always like that mate let me tell you, ive played heretic many times and have ascended once ever

[brisk ocean]

Yeah it really depends on the path, rust and blade need nerfs due to how meta they are

Rust giving infinite healing anywhere and blade making you invincible to ranged attacks for the duration it takes to run up to the person shooting
I've barely seen ash/cosmic ascensions recently and void ascension is one in a thousand chance if not less

[thin holly]

I don't really see anyone playing rust tbh, flesh and cosmic are much more played imo

[midnight dock]

people dont play rust because its negative aura, the path is literally baby handholding path

[jovial void]

It’s an infinite stunlock

[tough halo]

I never see blade used aside from me picking it honestly

[warped quarry]

Ling: “omg guys I can’t melee a melee antag nerf he!!!!”
Cqc and gloves: “omg guys i can’t melee a nukie nerf he!!!” (If it’s not a nukie there is nothing stoping you from magdumping a chef)

It’s all counterable by having competent security that aren’t braindead enough to go judo a ling solo

[daring meadow]

it feels like the idea of 'a secoff shouldn't be able to solo a antag' has involved into 'it should be nearly mechanically impossible for any antag to die to 1 secoff'
so if you just have like 3 braincells you can easily wipe all of sec as most antags

[warped quarry]

Me when all it takes is 3 guys armed with lecters to kill literally any antag in any gear

[daring meadow]

the sprint button:
running away is undeniably the strongest tactic, and sprinting just made it 10x easier

[warped quarry]

Oh wow if only there was a department that had a shitton of equipment to limit your movement and had an overseerer validhunter that can bolt you in oh wow imagine if we had that

Bolas, flashbangs, flashes, bolting doors or communicating with sec is not an option it seems

Ling dispos himself from you? Ok go :s LING DISPOx65 and see him die in an instant if sec have neurons

[daring meadow]

I'll be real
Only 1/5 secoffs (maybe less) bother to communicate or use any gear besides disabler and mk58
These are the same officers who will wear a hardsuit over a bulletproof/riot vest for on station non-spaced threats
Security IS strong but antags are objectively much stronger since they're designed to counter only a handful of security players
I think a easy way to prove this is to buy scarp and see how many secoffs continue to shoot at you as if you won't just reflect their bullets for the 30th time
Or try to chase down a changeling in a 30% slowdown hardsuit and just get singled out and killed

I think the true equalizer would be to nerf both sides
And yes I am just describing a skill issue, but the same can be said to basically anything else involving sec beating antags

[warped quarry]

I’ve seen top tier loadouts on traitors fail just because there were TWO (2) competent seccies that knew what they were doing, it mostly comes down to communicating and we shouldn’t base the balance around players who don’t want to learn simple principles of communicating with others, because if we do then the robust players will have even more power/the maximum skill ceiling will drop

Powercreeped ontags lead to powercreeped sec and it’s fine as it is now

[daring meadow]

Well yeah traitor in of itself should fold to 2 competent security officers
They aren't nukies, they should have to earn those station wipes, not buy 3 items then get a free win
They aren't a snowball antag either, at most they get some bonus tc from Renault or a shit ton from another traitor

[warped quarry]

And this is how it is now so there is your point.
Most antags die to two seccies as it should be

[storm thicket]

ey ey, bucko 🖐️
dont forget almost every melee antag uses speed & healing chems 24/7
and ling's speed ability makes them almost as fast as a secway/ATV if not the same speed

considering goob has no shooting prediction, all it takes is zigzagging

[warped quarry]

Godo my stunmeta

[storm thicket]

🫴

[warped quarry]

Ngl I have no idea how to counter this slop, scarp itself is gigacancer

[midnight dock]

throw spears at he, probably, or bola, or just ask cmo for rapid chud gun (scarp doesnt deflect syringes because.. ?)

[warped quarry]

The nefarious duffel full of spears that you loose in an instant because goida gloves

[daring meadow]

(this would never get made) but what if it was only directional reflect...

[loud mural]

If its scarp you can use batong and pray he doeant have hyperzine

[warped quarry]

THE NEFARIOUS EMP IMPLANT:

[daring meadow]

I think scarp is one of the BIGGEST traitor item offenders
Everything else they have is strong, but for 70 tc (if you get a discount, gg to the station) you become immune to almost all of securities armory and are only vulnerable to melee, but YOU objectively have the stronger melee
I know the strategy is to just use the poly baton. But 12 blunt ain't doing shit after they decapped a secoff and stole their armor. The main people who can SOMEWHAT counter them is warden (specifically with krav), onis, hos sword, and captain sword
Everything else is kind of just a gamble you probably won't win
Even if you do manage to hit them with a stun baton, they both probably have some form of stamina damage resistance, and they can also just.. spam the button to get back up and do one of their 2 button press combos that either instantly kills you or instantly disarms you
The fact that their main counter is a species and the captain is.. kind of dumb- and people already say its stupid how stuns are used on lethal threats anyways, but you don't have much of a choice for these fellas

[dapper stirrup]

scarp shits on any and all balance and completely breaks the game, way too powerful of an option and forces security to have powercreeped melee slop options in return. Sure syringes and stuff are popular, but if you want the counter to scarp to be validhunting then let people validhunt in peace with their gibmixes and chem stuff

[zinc tartan]

A few more 'counters' to scarp is CMO with pax gun(do the syringes get refleted?) or hypo, which basically makes them dead meat (though they can scram out). Other options are thrown weapons like spears. You can also set them on fire with phlog sprays or such.

[storm thicket]

lads, honestly,
scarp isnt a big issue as long as the dude doesnt have a dsword.
We tested it localhost 1v1s, scarp didnt win much againsts stun baton(w/out EMP)
w/EMP, he'd win if secoff has no appropriate melee

The real focus is on the latest new antag changes that didnt have any balance in consideration, like Guerilla gloves, Ling hard grab, new heretic changes, etc

In our local test, CQC+Guerilla won 7 rounds, sec won 1

[zinc tartan]

But yeah a general syndie with scarp is:

• Immune to all bullets and lasers
• Can hide this / can't meta it anymore (good thing IMO)
• Best and easiest combos out of all martial arts that allow for disarms, stuns, kills unarmed
• Carp immunity / strictly better version of the carp suit
• Cannot be removed or negated by any means by sec other than pax

Add to this scram (escape any situation), noslips (removes one of the biggest counters + lets you abuse slips or space lube), emp implant (disable baton or even BSO shield), you got a pretty nasty set of abilities that are completely stealthy.

[zinc tartan]

Agreed. I've seen non-war nukies destroy stations with two people going cqc in raidsuits and a shield. Just run up, stunlock, necksnap. They try to melee you with ANYTHING? They kill themselves. Can't slip. Has too much defenses to shoot down before they run up to you (or if they're moth, jumpscare leap into you).

Also, they gave ling hard grab (making it the ONLY weapon a ling can and will use to kill anyone, as the other two suck by comparison), but didn't give it back to chaplains god hand which had the same function.

The balance is all over the place. Some antags that are 'meant' to be able to solo kill or solo disable people can't or have to be very robust to do so against even the least robust crew, while others do so extremely efficiently.

Slasher, abductor, shadowling I think have much harder time getting people than a ling. And the ling is an unrestricted RR antagonist if your medical isn't farming biomass for cloning and brain transplants... Heretic is also wild on balance due to multiple paths and how 'efficient' their mansus+blade is, but generally snowball quickly and are a hard RR antag.

[storm thicket]

@glass stag worded it perfectly,

"Antags lost their skill ceiling."

[loud mural]

Some skill floors were raised too hard aswell though
You think anyone in a server of 75 players were impressed when the 4 raidsuit cqc nukies murdered everyone? Wasnt even a competition and noone stood a chance but it was by no means a display of skill
It was the most braindead methodical takeover

[jovial void]

Scarp DOES reflect syringes actually! I reflected multiple gibmixes thrown at me into random bystanders multiple times

[warped quarry]

Martial arts as a thing is a terrible concept if you think about it
Unremoveable unnoticeable stuff, most of which can kill you in a second for the crime of coming too close to an unarmored guy
Not to say that no one will care if you shove someone a few times, or grab them

To save goob all we need is to get rid of martial arts and make guerrila gloves uninsulated and the tot/nukie creep is mostly gone

While lings are still ok because ranged weaponry exists, though sprint kinda ruins it

[jovial void]

If we remove sprint and martial arts goob will be saved

John adrenaline reserves ling CAN NOT BE SAVED…

[storm thicket]

Mindshield(Sec & BSO) oughta get their old martial arts(Pre-nerf judo & BSO's CQC)

But I love antags' martial arts and think it should stay

Im going to make a mega- #1313237291254157353 soon with recorded footage and specific notes of broken stuff,

But the only suggestions to balance is:

• Allow Sec to use Contra
• Return old Sec/BSO's pre-nerf Martial Arts

[warped quarry]

This will probably never happen unless we will mald about it in the rebase to not get merged

Though people have learned how to deal with all this slop so idk

[dapper stirrup]

Cqc people have kind of gotten used to (chefs constantly using it helps with that), take them out of undetermined bundles and leave it at that, make it chef nukie, raise nukie tc cost by like 20, but the gorilla gloves and scarp HAVE to go imo. Either that or as wray said let sec use contra

This way only a chef can have cqc outside kitchen 99% of the time and you don't have like, 100% bs undetermined cqc jumpscare

[zinc tartan]

Martial arts is problematic ™
On one hand, a robust player who knows what they're doing, memorised/practiced using it on live realistic targets, and doesn't have bad ping, will universally destroy people with a super stealthly form of unarmed combat.

On the other hand, anyone not in that category above will either find the martial art useless against all but the most incompetent players, OR it will be effortless to use and destroy people like the robust category does. There's no balanced in-between.

MA either needs to be universally high skill ceiling (nerf or harder combos, harsher counters/weaknesses), or universally low skill ceiling but devestating with a pro (easy to learn, hard to master).

Low skill: Krav (via having buttons instead of combos), CQC (autoparries for you), scarp (reflect bullets and easiest combos).

High skill: Ninjutsu, Dragon, Capoeira

Ninjutsu is somewhat complex for something you have maybe 1/50 rounds a chance to practice doing by getting ninja role, meaning mastering it needs either dev toolbox or maining ninja.

Dragon kung fu is also daft because its passive doesn't work as intended and relies on you standing still in combat (which is universally the worst thing you can do in a game where an accurate click means life or death).

Capoeira I have never seen used in the game at all so I can't judge. But it's probably not good enough to take unless discounted, compared to scarp or such.

[dapper stirrup]

There are some capo fanatics but the issue with cqc is that guerilla gloves turns two intent kills into 1 intent kills, which, compared to the very hard to react bare cqc, are actually unreactable. As long as the cqc user lands a single grab on you you will be instantly thrown and killed right after

[zinc tartan]

How to fix MA: You pay TC for a MA scroll but which one you get is random, so you can't guarantee scarp. Prevent Guerilla gloves from synergizing with any MA, unarmed or species passive.

Add Gorilla Gloves which make you clumsy and make you speak in chimp.

[dapper stirrup]

Guerilla gloves inflict a martial art upon you while worn krav style, if you have a martial art already, no gloves. That would be at least a little bit more fair

But on god remove hardgrab slop 🥹

[warped quarry]

Giga solution:
make guerilla gloves don’t work if you have any sort of martial art.
You know how you can’t use judo when you already know any other martial art (like chef cqc or ward krav), make it work the same way with guerilla gloves.

You can use it, but you can’t pair it.

[midnight dock]

honestly the only issue with martial arts is readability

[daring meadow]

guerilla gloves in of itself should be its own martial art. you dont have any special moves, you just have guerilla hands

[dapper stirrup]

Martial arts should also ALL give popups when used, even if they don't do anything. So you KNOW you're being martial arted on the first shove and won't get suddenly free instakilled

[daring meadow]

I think command grabs in general are terrible and idk why we keep adding them back

[warped quarry]

Larp about martial arts:

martial arts are dogshit because you can’t predict when someone is using them on you unless it’s too late

Cqc is fine as a chef tot/nukie loot because if you see a chef out of kitchen you might get sus, nukie is self explanatory, a giga armed war criminal should be deadly and crying about dying to him is a skill issue.

Scarp is cancerous to the point of it needing to be removed from the game, but people seem to find a counter to it so it’s better to just up the price to like 85tc like it was on ss13 (17tc purchase)

Capo is surprisingly good because the combos are long and you boost yourself on a second/first move so it outs you

Every else martial art is fine because they are rare and you can expect a ninja to have ninjutsu, slaughter demon having hell combat etc

Also krav is crazy good on paper but is fine in game because it kills slowly and I wouldn’t exactly call it a martial art either way

[daring meadow]

i really just think theres a few thing with some martial art that you can point out that makes them very unfun to fight
of course i think its mainly cqc as scarp has already been brought up here alot
ripostes are just, not that fun
drugged up chef traitor with speedboots? maybe a accurate baton swing can even the playing field!
then you're stunned and necksnapped. a worthy punishment for.. hitting someone once
then of course if you combine guerilla gloves with it you might as well just remove your mindshield and dress as a passenger, assuming you're sec

there arent that many to bring up with others- mainly because, why use the gimmicky martial art when i can use the one that makes me win?

[haughty plover]

capo isn't hard to get a stealth kill with if you're just going for an assassination but to use it well in a larger context is very very difficult and is totally fine

[warped quarry]

Riposte is not all that fun but I mean you will use guns if there is a guy with cqc on the station so
Trying to melee a chef out of kitchen is just a bad idea in general because of how everyone should assume that chef out of the kitchen = evil, same with chemists

While scarp is genuinely aids because harm shove and you’re disarmed + knockbacked into a wall and you can’t do shit just because he will out DPS you even if you’re prepared to fight a scarper

[daring meadow]

while you should shoot them yes, the issue i stated before is speed boosts
dodging bullets already isnt all that hard and with speed boosts bullets might as well be a joke as long as you arent in a 1x1 hallway
the 2 main things you can try to do is bola/flashbang to knock them down, but.. yet again, speedboost makes that nearly impossible
i think the ultimate balancer would be add bullet prediction and make bullets super duper fast
ig theres also lasers but honestly the only scary lasers are the captain's laser and retro laser guns, and only certain stations give sec retro lasers, standard laser rifles are basically the equivelant of trying to kill someone with a cheap lighter unless you have a full firing line of them

[warped quarry]

If you’re against anyone who doesn’t have a scarp the safest way to kill him is bola + run away + shoot because the 70% slowdown makes it literally impossible to dodge bullets
Don’t forget sec has shotguns and 96dps guns available for them (which even with a web vest deals a lot of damage if shot continuously)

But the ONLY way to counter scarp is either swarming him with knifes/praying for him to miss every hit, which is sorta doable but still, almost impossible to counter if the scarper has any bit of decent armor/ping/literally any high dps melee weapon like esword

[daring meadow]

alas, i have knowledge but dogshit aim.
most other secoffs i see have aim but dogshit knowledge
doesnt go well together

[warped quarry]

All it takes is 2 competent seccies to deal with any threat, as always

[midnight dock]

stop trying to fucking baton a cqc master 💔

[daring meadow]

They arent cqc masters. They are people who read a book

[midnight dock]

so dont baton them if they're trained in melee combat, shoot them

if theyh ave CQC they are 100% valid to kill so just fucking magdump he

[leaden nymph]

Martial arts aren't a problem. The only problem has always been cqc

[warped quarry]

Can you please elaborate on it further because I don’t want to repeat my 6500 word larp again

[daring meadow]

I think cqc is more annoying then problematic, the main problematic one is scarp

For example, while cqc is annoying, the counter is shooting it. You don't melee them. Same with blade heretics.

Scarp however has extremely powerful melee attacks, and it does the opposite- it forces people to use melee on you so you always have the advantage no matter what since you can ignore everything but guns
Yes, blablabla stun meta, shut up bro m1 m2 disarm

Getting judo thrown with scarp is a skill issue, you just click them twice and they get flung. Poly baton also does no fucking damage
Not to mention scarp still leaves you with enough budget for a emp or scram or just anything else to run away/counter the few things that damage you

[midnight dock]

gank, it takes 2+ officers with polymer batons to fuck a scarper, fuck even judo counters scarp because humble throw into armbar

[leaden nymph]

Scarps melee is extremely weak. You deal 20 damage every other hit

[daring meadow]

No.. it stacks
You can one shot deathsquad with carp bite

[warped quarry]

1. The scarp hits decap in 2 combos if it’s a sunny day and it really loves breaking bones in 1 combo
2. No it fucking doesn’t instakill ds???

[leaden nymph]

okay just checked and no it doesn't stack. It deals 40 damage though

[daring meadow]

well they must have removed stacking which is good because my friend quite literally had a clip of them instantly critting someone in deathsquad armor in it. that wasnt just something i pulled out of my ass as much as i wish it was

[leaden nymph]

Stealth combat isn't real in ss14. Once someone sees you use martial arts once everyone on station knows you have it. You can't predict if someone has a big shotgun or hypopen on them until it's too late either. Martial arts are not unique there, and scarp has never been a problem. Sec always deals with it unless it's some disgusting scarp / his grace combo and by itself gets beaten by two secoffs with batons or even one with a judo belt. I've never once seen just a scarp user kill the entire station so I don't see why you're making a big deal out of it

[warped quarry]

Does have a point but it’s mostly comes down to that it’s literally easier to hide a martial art than a bigass shotgun or a gun, and that you can’t correctly predict the intent of the guy coming at you if he is unarmed, with guns you can see the gun from a mile away and start running, while with martial arts it comes down to the first 2 hits that you realise you’re in danger

[leaden nymph]

Sometimes you just lose, and you can just hide a gun in your bag. Yeah it's easier for martial arts but they come with extreme disadvantages / limitations. cqc - chef only, scarp - 70tc AND you can't use guns, Capo (pretty weak but no real limitations), ninjutsu - ninja only, etc

[warped quarry]

https://tenor.com/view/okay-sounds-good-jim-halpert-the-office-good-point-gif-11119519098820520575

[warped quarry]

After thinking for a bit I think that martial arts are kinda fine comparing them to the stuff we have in the uplink currently so

[clear dawn]

Just so long as you can’t get CQC in the undetermined bounty I am happy

[zinc tartan]

Another issue with scarp, it doesnt jusy block, it REFLECTS whatever shot you. Lasers instantly hit you back, shotguns suicide you if you are unaware the opponent has scarp, etc...

Seccie with shotgun sees guy do crimes, goes for a close up shot for max damage, gets blasted in their own face as it reflects. And then the scarper closes the distance and murders them while they fumble for a different weapon.

A nukie scarper can likewise just stand in front of a squad of lasers and shotguns and bullets to guard their team.

[leaden nymph]

1. it's not a perfect reflect, bullets always go to the sides
2. they only "close the distance and murders you" if you stand still while doing nothing. You still have plenty of tools including stun batons (that force them to the ground in one hit) to fight them
3. nukies literally can't get scarp
   Are we fr rn

[zinc tartan]

No mention of Judo, Dragon Kung Fu? Both are commonly available in rounds by crew but no antags complain about them being uncounterable or anything. They lose to CQC and Scarp.

@leaden nymph
Didn't know nukies can't get scarp. Does that include surplus/gamba crate stuff?

[leaden nymph]

They haven't had surplus / gambling crates for months

[zinc tartan]

Then we have a precedent to remove CQC and guerilla gloves from nukies entirely.

No MAs for nukies, period.
Because MAs on nukies inevitably become broken via a combo of fantastic gear and team support / things that remove any weakness MA would have.

Providing sec with hard counters to MA could also be an option.

Sets of armor or shields with no ballistic protection but granting immunity to MA combos and blunt damage reduction.

Judo being able to negate one MA combo every X seconds as its 'passive', meaning they can go on the offensive and get a combo out first.

~~Making MAs unable to wear magboots and noslips so you can soap them. ~~

[brisk ocean]

I feel like guerilla gloves and xenovac are the real issue here

I feel like removing stamina damage from being hard thrown might solve a lot of balancing issues

[zinc tartan]

Everyone also hates Scarp with a passion for being too braindead to use while being difficult to counter even aware and ready for it. Its like getting dagd without being dagd. A discount His Grace.

Cos cult was also mentioned as an issue since one click disable. But they're a conversion antag so...

Hmm, give Judo immunity to throws / they do a flip with no knockdown/stam/stun on others if thrown.

[glass stag]

I'm of the similar mind that while both guerrilla gloves and CQC have powerful use cases and utility, guerrilla gloves amplify CQC to an extent that there is very little one can do, outright diminishing the "skill" for a necksnap. That's really the only thing for me.

[brisk ocean]

Coscult has two shunt abilities, one is instant and makes the target INVULNERABLE obstacle while other makes the target mindless but with like 3 second do-after
That's balanced in my view

[zinc tartan]

CQC on nukies combos with way too many things. Shields, eswords, deswords, raidsuits... Immune/punish melee while also able to resist gunners. Guerrila glove is just the worst of the bunch with how it makes CQC deadlier than a desword or army of seccies with stun batons, Judo and such.

So the question is, should CQC be removed from nukies roster like scarp is? Or guerilla gloves? Both? Or remove their combo / obvious exploit where a MA benefits from another unarmed-boosting thing.

It's certainly less fun for two nukies to run and necksnap people than big shootouts, sieges and standoffs.

Oh also regarding scarp countering: Scarp + noslips + a space lube bomb. Unless all the seccies grab magboots, the scarper can camp and kill anyone daring to wander too close.

Its telling that the mantis blades are weaker/slower kill speed and less stealthy than all the MAs.

[warped quarry]

Martial arts on nukies are fine because shoot he bru
Also why are you talking about mantis blades, no shit something that is cheaper would be worse
“Edagger kills slower than desword = desword op!”

[gaunt karma]

you are not supposed to fight antags alone and expecting to win
you are supposed to fucking GANG UP ON THE EVIL MAN

[warped quarry]

Me when an evil guy that is alone vs 12 people can kill me face to face:

[gaunt karma]

mantis blades are supposed to be used with sandevistan.
then they have even better TTK than some martial arts
they just have better DPS than any other martial art bar capoeira

[zinc tartan]

Choom with dual mantis and sandy vs the humble chef

[warped quarry]

Problem with sande+mantis blades: riot suit and lethals.
Also the fact that sande is useless because everyone can run as fast as you because sprint, the only benefit is having the fire rate of melee being doubled does NOT cost 66tc especially on a traitor

[zinc tartan]

Also being kill on sight because the sandy leaves its stupid trail behind for EVERYONE to see meaning you're dagd the moment you use it

But yeah there's this disparity between TC costs and how effective something is in actually at causing station wide destruction and murder of everyone in sec vs a single targeted kill. It's one thing to use an item for a single kill, another to destroy the station entirely in a dagd-like rampage.

His Grace costs 100 I think? It's the most iconic dagd item. Holy hand grenade similarly costs an absurd amount. Both are role locked and super expensive, with massive drawbacks, compared to just getting scarp to kill every cadet and officer in sec that didn't explicitly prepare for you with bolas and powergaming tactics.

If an item becomes 'ok, the station is doomed' whenever it's on discount, but is also used when it's not on discount regularly cause of how good it is, that item is a problem.

[zinc tartan]

What's the cost of scarp vs getting both mantis + sandy?

[warped quarry]

100tc for sande and mantis blades vs 70tc for scarp

[zinc tartan]

Holy powercreep / noob trap.

'Hmm, do I spend 70% of my TC to be immune to any ranged weapon, carps, have super easy kill combos and be completely stealthy at it if I play my cards, right plus some extra TC for sidegrades like noslips, meds, scram, EMP... Or spend all of my TC to have super obvious cybernetics that will instantly out me on use, leave behind evidence, and give no protection. Also, if I don't kill the person fast enough they'll just sprint away and I'm fucked.'

THAT is where your problem is. Scarp gives you SO much, permanently, and sec can't even get rid of it or find evidence of it.

What's the CQC and Guerilla cost?

[warped quarry]

Compared to everything else in the uplink scarp is busted, I mean you can say that for the same price you can have a faster TTK with like a bulldog but that doesn’t denies the insane reflects and stuff

Sande itself needs a buff/scarp needs its price bumped closer to 90-100tc mark

Cqc and gloves cost 120 for nukies btw

[woeful narwhal]

scarp is very iconic, but extremely busted for 70 tc imo

[zinc tartan]

I mean, even with 90 TC cost, scarp can get noslips and a bunch of utility items that can make them station destroyers.
Noslips are also sort of 'yeah, it's fucking mandatory'. And with space lube you turn entire hallways into death zones for a scarper that only someone with magboots or galoshes can handle. And if they're wearing magboots/galoshes they likely aren't armed well enough to kill a scarper in melee, or you already killed 90% of sec and they're specifically arming just to kill you.

[warped quarry]

Noslips cost 10TC
Also why are we making it about noslips they are fine
The only problem with scarp is that for its price it’s super busted

[zinc tartan]

Scarp gives more than any MA and is cheap for what it gives indeed. CQC is the only other equivalent in power but not sure what its individual cost is.

Opposite spectrums of 'immune to entire sec armory + extras, good at melee' and 'almost immune to melee, god at melee'. Scarp gives more outright immunities while CQC gives you limited immunities (the riposte isn't guaranteed) and is tricker to do combos with.

Security gets Judo but its laughable by comparison, and Dragon Kung Fu still has a bug where its passive (resisting damage if you stand still for a bit) doesn't work as intended along with being a bit self-defeating in a game where speed and movement is key.

If Traitors could buy Judo, Dragon or Ninjutsu, what would they be priced at TC wise?

[blazing whale]

Remove sprint

[dapper stirrup]

60 for chef, only chef can buy it guaranteed. Otherwise 99-200tc with bundles. Guerilla is 20

[zinc tartan]

TC economy is in shambles
Make scarp 100TC and call it a day. CQC is weaker than scarp yet costs more in most situations.
Also I guess chef traitor meta. 60 for CQC, 20 Guerilla, 20 left over.

[daring meadow]

i tried out mantis blades in localhost and they feel REALLY underwhelming..
i get they're 17(?) tc each, but even with direct hits while dual wielding them, the ttk just feels so low
i feel like it would be good to nerf some of the overused and stuff thats generally considered overpowered but buff the lesser used stuff to try to make them more fun to use (and of course more usable)

[drifting inlet]

void heretic ascension

[zinc tartan]

Since we have round summaries and such detailing what people buy and TC spent, maybe the goobers should check what's overwhelmingly bought and what is never bought and figure out what needs adjusting from that. It can probably even be automated for metrics.

I imagine if there's a 100 rounds where someone bought the same items as traitors and greentexted, and one item was bought 1-3 rounds and redtexted is a sign of adjusting needed

[daring meadow]

i've seen 1 void heretic survive ascension
and it was when any heretic could get jaunt
coincidence? i think not

[drifting inlet]

things have changed

[jovial void]

Lwk just make scarp cost 100 tc

[gaunt karma]

void ascension is still ass even after the rework
shotguns just execute you

[dense egret]

Or add the scarp rework 4.0 from tg that they added recently

[drifting inlet]

Just be far away bro

[gaunt karma]

me when i tp into combat, hit the void pull and then hear the chester unholstering:
The snowstorm begins to fade away...

[zinc tartan]

Wear carp clothes to get 75% melee avoidance on top of 100% projectile immunity...

They even admit that 'most people take carp solely for the bullet immunity' and then do nothing about said bullet immunity

[leaden nymph]

because bullet immunity is not a problem and security has some of the strongest melee weapons in the game

[daring meadow]

the main strong melee sec has is entirely negated by a cheap implant that almost everyone buys
then its just the spear (very hard for laggy mfs to use/just move fast) and the terminus (research/oni exclusive)
polybaton is a a knife but 3x larger with knockback and no bleeding, its basically just a weaker baseball bat
and knives/corporate judo damage boost are laughable

[leaden nymph]

sec has stun batons which is really the only weapon they need. Yeah there's emp's but they are not used often and they can just get truncheons

[warped quarry]

I love when a scarper tries to murk me and I just pull out a legendary betty from my pocket because I’m a det:

[daring meadow]

well truncheons arent exactly for stunning, by the time you stun with the truncheon you've dealt around 80 damage.. (unless it functions differently here, as ive never used it and never seen anyone else use it) so its basically just a lethal weapon all things considered
but alas, i dont consider anything sci has to research security gear, because why would sci help the stupid chud shitsec who take away their powergaming gear and contraband outside of nukies/blob

[leaden nymph]

Yeah it's an extremely robust lethal weapon that also deals stamina damage. Anyways all sec has access to bola's (one of the strongest items in the game), Knifes (has the same dps as truncheons), Poly batons, Spears, Det has their umbrella, Hos has their esword, and Warden has krav maga (tbf they won't be out fighting much but if they do they can EASILY win). Hate to scarp always boils down to "I can't be braindead and shoot this target! Too overpowered!" Despite it not being strong and stopping the scarp user from using guns. I have never ONCE seen a scarp user kill the entire station

[midnight dock]

"truncheons arent for stunning" me when i know nothing

    animationRotation: -45 # WWDP
    wideAnimationRotation: -135
    damage:
      types:
        Blunt: 20
    soundHit:
      collection: MetalThud
    bluntStaminaDamageFactor: 1.5```
30 stam damage + 20 blunt on hit with no cooldown aside from the default firerate per attack is quite strong actually and all you need to defeat a scarper, if you wanna be real digusting with it hit them with a stun baton first for the 55 overtime stamina (most likely reduced because of armor) + knockdown then just beat them with a truncheon while they're down

[daring meadow]

they LITERALLY need to do 80 damage before they stun

[drifting inlet]

They can stun but they are not for stunning
Read the description

[midnight dock]

yes but in this context it is perfectly acceptable to be used for stunning and effective for it as it will be hurting the valid person using scarp and inflicting wounds whereas a stun batong will not, a stun batong is also capable of being EMP'd, which all though not a common choice for syndies it is still possible. A truncheon cannot be EMP'd

[daring meadow]

yes, i was wrong.
its actually more like 70 damage.
the stamina damage it deals is based on how much BLUNT damage it did, so no matter what, it will stun around 70-80 damage in.
thats just a lethal weapon that makes the last couple of hits ever so slightly easier

[midnight dock]

twin i literally sent you the yml to read

[leaden nymph]

yeah but it also takes away from their sprint so they just can't run

[pastel wharf]

Make scarp cost 110 TC perfectly balanced
You need to go kill the fox with no items
Or go kill one of your traitor friends

[zinc tartan]

This assumes the scarper does not hit you twice and proceed to COWABUNGA you to death on the floor before you can do the 80 damage the truncheon does.
Assuming a batong and a scarper clash, and can perfectly accurately click each other, who wins? The Scarper getting the combo off, or the damage/stun from the seccie?
As in, if someone is very robust, does MA win regardless of what you attack them with by just being accurate enough with the MA combos?

[leaden nymph]

scarp deals 40 damage every other hit. so it deals 20 damage per hit. wow what insane dps! Almost like you can match that with any weapon that security has access to! Even crazier is that you don't have to fight them alone! and what's EVEN CRAZIER is that you have access to a STUN BATON and BOLAS! It's so crazy!!!!!!! and what's even crazier despite all of this is that not once have I seen a scarp user kill the entire station! so crazy! Don't bother replying it'll just be ignored

[zinc tartan]

Silly ideas for scarp

• The scroll trains you in increments. First use gives you the knockdown, second use gives you the cowabunga spam, third use gives you 50% projectile immunity and carp friendship, fourth use gives you 100% immunity and deletes the scroll. This makes it a risk-reward item rather than instant benefits, and removes having to just sit around for it to activate.
• The scroll cannot be used unless you practice the martial art by critting/kill an active player with it. So you have a pseudo-heretic/ling improvement. You want to be bulletproof? Go kill seccies or tiders first. If you can't do that with part of a MA and 30 TC, sucks to be you.
• Dagd exclusive item because once sec knows you have it, they WILL kill you and mark you KOS/DNR and generally causes massive collateral anyway.

[atomic badger]

Skill issue

[tough halo]

Last time I played heretic I didn’t use magic for 30 minutes since sec was on high alert for lings and when I finally decided to do it and made a knife in maints three officers walked in RIGHT as I casted the spell and they appeared cause they were looking for corpses

[glass stag]

in cases like that getting into space is a must

[tough halo]

Yeah but I was blade not Void, also I was a chemist so leaving the lab in itself is suspicious

[woeful narwhal]

its power game or be powergamed here, no balance will fix the shitshow the maints fabricated

[dense egret]

Dagd only??? Fuck off i have stealth kills to use that for

[jovial void]

You can use his grace without dagd sooo

[zinc tartan]

If you have a survival/evac objective His Grace will kill you unless you ascend, which you can't do without going dagd murderbone mode. And you're not supposed to cause massive collateral to achieve your objectives (i.e. no RRing 50 people with a tesloose to kill a janitor or such). Grabbing His Grace for a relatively simple objective or survival objective is like taking a china lake to get a corgi steak.

It's ideal for dagd, or the 'ensure X achieves objective' at best

[jovial void]

And what’s wrong with taking clake to corgi steak, that office is locked down tight ya know?

[warped quarry]

There are no rules that disallow you to murderbone everyone you see, if I’m rolling tot I’m doing whatever the fuck I want I’m a fucking terrorist

[mild pendant]

There is, new rules, but they werent announced for some reason

[gaunt karma]

point me at the rule like Now please
we are still on TG ruleset that allows you to do basically anything bar mass destruction

[mild pendant]

Ill send a screenshot of it later when i get in ss14

[warped quarry]

I swear to god if he sends a rule from mrp ruleset I’m screaming slurs

[mild pendant]

Not mrp, dont even play mrp

[daring meadow]

Ngl I think it's WORSE on mrp
Ive seen someone get away with gibbing a secoff + RRing another one as a non-antag on mrp since it's "valid escalation"

[mild pendant]

ok they have changed it twice and are now more relaxed on it but it still says ya cant do mass destruction without some reason, it got changed twice silently and the last one i read was more strict. Before it was saying you cant do stuff like, kill someone for fun and because they slightly annoyed you

[woeful narwhal]

Keep in mind that if you look more closely at the traitor menu, sometimes it tells you to make some noise and shit

[glass stag]

that's really just fluff and flavor text, unlike on 13 whereas your branch of syndicate gave you specific objs(as well as fluff and flavor text really), like ARC terrorists murdering sci/med staff, just there if you'd like it.

You're not obligated to follow the flavor text of whatever branch of syndicate you're assigned to

[zinc tartan]

Here's from the MRP server (assuming there's any difference from LRP)

From how I interpret it

• Thieves can't do mass murderboning in general. Others have less restrictions but the goal is still for things to be interesting/engaging/fun for more than the antag.
• Don't be repetitive with gimmicks or tactics (i.e. part of why scarp and cqc+guerilla are loathed).
• Try to do some roleplaying as the antag rather than mindless no-talking murder of everyone you see.
• If you have objectives, have an IC reason to do mass murderboning rather than 'yeah I'll just murderbone and hope it leads to my targets death'. If you're cornered or mass hunted, sure probably, but don't go destroying everyone.
• Don't mass sabotage in general (plasmafloods, spacing).
• At least have IC reason to murderbone people if you ARE going to murderbone. E.g. if you're scarping, feel free to kill the seccies, or crew who piss you off, but don't go out of your way to behead a janitor who wants nothing to do with you, and don't RR people for very trivial reason.

[drifting inlet]

this is on all servers

[zinc tartan]

And it's up to the admins in the end if they'll let you get away with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5fLUNkJUA4 (not Goob AFAIK but you get the idea)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsQyiPLhcbA (note the admin message of the day)

Are you entertaining and novel, or making the ghosts cheer for you? You'll probably be fine. Less so if your tactic is something that's overused, meta or similar. And the creep is what makes the ghosts annoyed or bored for getting RR'd. The biggest mald and sheer hatred I've ever seen was a wizard who wordlessly spammed the paper summons and killed everyone on the station, as they were murderboning while being boring and using a cheap tactic.

[storm thicket]

Try testing heretic armor, just regular heretic armor, in localhost.
Holy shit ist OP as hell

Other than enforcer & energy shotgun, you need to land over 10 shots to take down a heretic

[loud mural]

Isnt it global 50%?

[warped quarry]

It’s 50% res

[opal crypt]

and then they scram by the 3rd hit anyway

[thin holly]

well yeah they're alone against a whole station, it'd suck to die in one guy hitting one spray

[zinc tartan]

How does it compare to Ling 'Armor', Cosmic Cult Robe, and Cultist Armor (From Salv lootboxes or traitor chaplains)?

On the subject of antag creep - Bingles went in the opposite direction and became the weakest group/conversion antag currently (along with being rare)

Used to be a major threat, now they're a joke antag. A halfway-decent sec team with basic firearms can demolish them even if they went full Bongle and upgraded.

Biggest issues they face is guns take them down quickly and efficiently (faster than they can melee you down often), they get easily destroyed by chokepoints, grabbing their ghost roles to get reinforcements is bugged (you get a dozen ghostrole openings that then spawn nothing, forcing you to take a specific simplemob than anything in 'the hole'), the passively spawning bingles have simplemob AI that's easily killed/kited (meaning less ghostroles) and there's no way to recover after crew is able to reach the hole. They're only a threat when there's simultaneously another, bigger antag threat or are completely ignored.

They ought to have an extra gimmick/edge now that toxin is gone (ranged booger attack that slows/immobilizes, or causes bingle fever?). And probably an incentive to not rely on spacing.

[loud mural]

ling armor i think isnt that amazing but lings get shields which ARE amazing and they also have the regen

[tough halo]

-Mute Sting
-Cryo Sting
-Stimulant
-Arm Blade

Aaaand the persons dead and couldn’t do anything about it congrats

[midnight dock]

durk mald PR major

[drifting inlet]

-Shriek
-Arm Blade
Aaand the persons dead and couldnt do anything about it congrats

[unique reef]

AHAHAHA I LOVE BEING DECAPPED WITH FULL RIOT ARMOR WITHOUT COUNTERPLAY IM GOING INSANE WITH THIS DOGSHIT BALANCE

Sorry, I'm just so frustrated between the balance between sec vs antag, genuinely why is it so bad

[daring meadow]

We decided to take "you shouldn't be able to 1v1 a antag" and made it mechanically impossible to do so

[unique reef]

1v1 and it's 3 sec and 2 tider validhunter vs a ling bro 😭

[daring meadow]

Mhm, the fact it's mechanically impossible to lose a 1v1 makes absurd stuff like that very easy if 2 braincells are used

[pastel wharf]

The funny thing with being able to win 1v1s

Is literally the fact that you can win 1v1s and just fuck off before anyone in the group noticed that one of their friends just got beheaded nearly instantly

[unique reef]

The new Security slop melee weapons aren't even doing shit against scarp

[leaden nymph]

You're just bad at the game

[unique reef]

Yeah, but i would be better if I just have lower ping, really jealous of my western bro's having the best ping over there

[leaden nymph]

All of the servers are EU

[unique reef]

Yeah but I'm from asia, I have like 200ms

[warped quarry]

Scarp is winnable against 1v1 if you’re prepared to make a first hit
Bolas and flashes are stupidly good

[unique reef]

Huh I thought bolas don't work, i read the guidebook

[leaden nymph]

this is the kind of person that's complaining about balance btw

[warped quarry]

scarp becomes almost impossible to 1v1 if he hits you first and youre unaware that this guy is a scarper, but after that it comes down to what stuff bro has other than scarp

[unique reef]

A lot of stuff needs tweaking and balance, since people are so focused on antag vs crew why not actually make good balance, woundmed and sprinting ruined combat ngl

[zinc tartan]

TBH before woundmed we had gibbing from being clubbed in the torso and ashing from hot rooms instead so RR was much, much easier?

[unique reef]

I prefer being gibbed and ashed or spaced over beheading in 3 seconds

[midnight dock]

to fix antag creep add new slon antag that is omniantag that can steal power from other antag and hunt antag if they are too evil

🐘

[zinc tartan]

Gotta wear those glasses/helmets/earpieces/masks which defend your head (needing 4 slots filled to defend one bodypart is incredibly dumb).

But beheading is actually fixable compared to the other three if you can find the head.

Agree on 'no response death' antags. A seccie should be able to have 1-4 secs of time to react to a threat before being destroyed by most antags, and no antag should be capable of killing 2-3 seccies working together via having a single TC purchase or antag ability.

Normal crew less so but only cause lack of armor.

In general, seccie armory should matter more. Scarp literally makes you immune to the entire armory arsenal, meaning seccies have to use gear from a roundstart vendor or resarch, while everyone else is plain dead unless they do shit like pie ops.

Many armory weapons and armors range from weak to 'extremely specific to one type of threat' to 'taken immedately but not enough for everyone in the department', or 'never used' (riot nade launcher).

Riot gear and riot shields - meant to counter melee threats. Dies to melee threats anyway cause you got poked by an instastun.

[unique reef]

People keep saying let sci research the weapons but me, fuck sci, they rarely help, they only research shit we need if they're threatened, begged or being threatened by antags, i wish Sci just research sec equipment without kissing their foot or yelling at captain and rd

[zinc tartan]

Antag creep happened because sec and sci was robbed of their combat mechs which could actually say 'fuck you' to magical stun meta antags.

Maybe give sci an anti-heretic helmet that makes you nullroded. Or anti-ling armor that prevents stings and laser pistols that ignite / prevent ling stasis regen. MA implants that sec can get so they can counter scarpers en masse. A recharging energy bola launcher.

Currently sec research is either riot melee gear, recharging lasers. The other stuff is kinda fluff (smartguns are scuffed, nobody uses the sniper/smg lasers). And the mechs 'research' is admin only in the end meaning its a literal waste of points.

[warped quarry]

Ah yes, mechs, that stuff that has infinite bullets and is unkillable/unidentifiable by everyone

[loud mural]

Mechs are uncounterable to like 90% of antags and have no counter play especially with the new emp proof cells

[zinc tartan]

Emp proof cells?

[unique reef]

i just want riot control and the new lasers but sci is a bitch, they never helped sec and theyre also one of the best roles for antags

[warped quarry]

“Why would I research new guns for sec if I can’t use them? I’m better off researching bs bags and forceguns!”
-any sci player ever

[unique reef]

i dislike those people man, i wish they researched it no question asked

[warped quarry]

Ask ai cuz sci ain’t researching shit

[loud mural]

I usually research flatpacker salvage equipment for better ore processor and some sci stuff like synchronizer and artifact crusher

[zinc tartan]

Sci tends to prioritize crusher/anomaly stuff first (more points), then the turbocharger/tools/microbattery (useful to whole station, lets cargo make adv. SMES for profit). From there they go into civvie stuff like mops, medical things, cargo teleporter, salv gear...

Notably turbocharger is mandatory for almost any laser gunfights or sieges

For seccies I usually go with draconic munitions and riot gear, maybe the advanced lasers. Not sure if anyone benefits from shit like harmpack or the 'special' lasers that are like snipers, the smarrgun...

[crisp beacon]

Merge my heretic nerf pr 😤

[loud mural]

https://tenor.com/view/obi-wan-simp-you-were-the-chosen-one-it-was-said-that-you-would-destroy-the-simps-not-join-them-you-were-the-chosen-one-it-was-said-that-you-would-destroy-the-sith-not-join-them-gif-20199329

YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE
YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO CREATE THEM NOT NERF THEM

[drifting inlet]

Reading comprehension award

[loud mural]

Reading comprehension award

[wanton mantle]

Ngl. I like sec and bso where it's at vs antags, the problem solver is usually just grouping when you must and knowing who to prioritize. But whenever I see a fuckass vox as antag I know it's over.

[tough halo]

Changeling is the only one I have a complaint with, other then that it’s fine

[drifting inlet]

i think the bigger issue is that like more than half of the antags we have are essentially just round remove with a touch of murderbone

[tough halo]

Ling especially but Heretic doesnt benefit from randomly killing civvies

[leaden nymph]

Not an issue

[drifting inlet]

NRP mindset

[leaden nymph]

You're literally complaining about antags killing. This is a disaster simulator with roleplay. This is not a hugbox where you pretend the other person is evil. Deadass get off goob. "Nrp mindset" aka you can't process the fact that there's a mix of gameplay and rp and not just rp

[drifting inlet]

you can't process the fact that there's a mix of gameplay and rp and not just rp
Bro I've played 1k hours of LRP do you think I care that much about rp
Also you can't do the gameplay if you literally cannot play the game. If you get touched by some ontag which is incredibly powerful (issue) and removed from the round, there is no fun there. It's only fun for the antagonist.
Also you like submarine so you're and your opinion is void

[leaden nymph]

And? Your hours don't matter. Why do you think there's ghost roles? You're never permanently out of the round unless you want to be. Antags should be a major part of the round and making it so they don't even kill people is how you make a hug box. You'd be better off on a chatroom. You're one of the main reasons this community is terrible to dev for as you've completely misunderstood the game

[drifting inlet]

Ghost roles are trash, there are never any fun ones except critters that will get rdm'd by chud crew.
I am not saying being KILLED by antags is bad. Being round removed by antags is bad. I don't care if I get magdumped by a viper and shoved into a locker. I still can come back.
Also I play one round of basil out of my 500 rounds on sigma/alpha and you speak to me like im an m*poid GG 5x
Your whole argument literally reeks of NRP mindset, all you seem to care about is killing and ignoring rp lmao

[leaden nymph]

No i always make it a point to rp and have fun. I just value gameplay the same as I value rp. This comes down to us missing mechanics from ss13 (cloning) not antags murdering

[warped quarry]

god forbid evil antag kill my oc, and if you dare to tell me that "its a game and people can lose" i will call you NRP scum!!11

[drifting inlet]

I played ONE ROUND of MRP bro...... ONE ROUND.........

[warped quarry]

played on mrp
didnt read everything else sorry bro, mrp player opinion dismissed. ||||