Please Let Us Access Endless Mode From the Start

[red roost]

I think the game should display a warning if the player tries to play Endless without beating a regular Pressure level first but locking it behind Pressure 10 when some people are most interested about Endless Mode (like me) seems unfair and too demanding of the player.

[rapid badger]

Thanks for moving this topic here For anyone else reading / joining the thread, I'll copy in the relevant dev team replies from the original conversation to why it's locked behind P10:

There's a few reasons:

1. Endless gets really hard really fast. If people aren't skilled at the game when they try it, they stop trying it
2. Pressure 10 is a good moment where certain key Pressure changes are added which are required for endless go not be boring such as diminishing returns on speed (we spent 2 months testing this out with people, so we're very confident about this not feeling good/fun beforehand)

We spent a LOT of time testing it with players. We almost didn't add endless to this version because of how it felt during that time.

We are considering finding alternative options to allow it to be playable in some form earlier but we couldn't figure out a good solution for this initial launch.

@red roost I'd love to hear your thoughts about Endless when you do unlock and give it a try - but also, what were / are you hoping for as an Endless experience?

[red roost]

I was hoping for it to be like Spore where you just evolve as much as you want without the run ending (unless you die)
I don't usually like rogue-likes due to progress loss but with an Endless Mode it would be more fun for me since at least then my efforts would last as long as I could get them to without being forced to end my run there

I enjoyed the demo a lot and even got a bunch of my friends to play it after I found it
One of them informed me Endless Mode was locked behind Pressure 10 since I haven't had the time to try the game out yet despite having purchased it as soon as it released
That's why I brought it up here

I also would like for Endless Mode to have customisable settings when started outside a Pressure run

[elfin forum]

How about unlocking endless from the start only at pressure 0? That way it wouldn't interfere with the regular game progression, but players who enjoy going for OP runs can still do that whenever they want to.
I can definitely see the reasoning for locking endless behind a certain difficulty level in terms of scaling and I personally agree but I also understand wanting to have a different gameplay experience and this could be a reasonable compromise

[rapid badger]

Thanks, that all makes sense! I found your point about not really liking rogue-likes due to progress loss a really interesting one. I'm not 100% sure Endless mode will scratch that itch for you, I believe it's more intended for the 1 in 100 super powerful ultimate builds right now. The team is especially busy today as you can imagine but I look forward to hearing what they think when they get around to replying here.

I also would like for Endless Mode to have customisable settings when started outside a Pressure run

Now that I think might be interesting. Like a Custom Run that you can setup yourself?

[red roost]

Exactly like a Custom Run, yes

So if I want to turn enemy damage all the way down and play essentially forever just for fun, I can

Or if I want to die in one-hit to try a no-hit run

[rapid badger]

Got it - thank you.

Yeah that would be a cool addition, agreed!

[red roost]

I'm not sure if Endless Mode can be interrupted and gone back to after it's started but that would also be nice if it's not already a thing

Regarding the 1 in 100 super powerful builds, I actually had one going when I did Pressure 3 or 4, not sure which, and was really sad that the run ended
I wanted to test how far my build would be able to go in Endless but since it's locked behind Pressure 10 that will have to wait 🥲

[rapid badger]

I wanted to test how far my build would be able to go in Endless
I think that's very much the intention - so once again very interested to hear how you find it once you do unlock it 🦀
Thanks for all the feedback, and I love the Custom Run idea!

[red roost]

I'm glad you did

I found the game very impressive from a game development standpoint so I'm happy to see it be successful

Genetics/evolution is something I always love to see done well

Being able to breed and have more members of your own species instead of other species as your pack would be awesome too

[rapid badger]

Thanks - please feel free to create new topics for other feedback ideas, lets keep this one focused on Endless mode 😄

[red roost]

Oh, I was just throwing it out there hahah
But I can make a topic if you think it would be interesting

[rapid badger]

Entirely up to you! It sounds cool, but it also sounds like a lot of work 😅

[quick geyser]

This for me is the biggest thing. I've had a lot of fun with builds on earlier pressures that I would have LOVED to be able to keep going with, but the run ended and I was like going "awww... I would've liked to keep going..."

But then I instead hit basically a difficulty wall in pressure 5 where I can beat pressure 4 reliably (rarely ever losing a run or feeling much challenge), but cannot for the life of me reach the second boss in pressure 5 even after 16 runs. (Honestly, I think I've only reached the first boss once, and then died to it within seconds.)

For me, what I'm really craving is either:

• after the end of a run on ANY pressure, give the option of "Continue this run in endless mode?" where it starts with that current exact build and at that pressure, then begins escalating
• endless mode unlocked from the start, with the ability to choose what pressure we want to begin on.

I love the game and its formula, but I'm not good enough to play on higher pressures clearly, but the short durations of lower pressures mean that when I'm finally getting a really fun build that I'm super enjoying, it's way too easy for the level it's at and I don't get enough time to really enjoy it anyway.

I had to put the game down in frustration earlier while grinding away at attempting to get Endless mode (and not even getting halfway prssure-wise or 1/4th of the way in P5). I don't want to get stuck just playing too-easy P4 runs that end so quickly that I don't feel challenged or bashing my face against P5 until I quit.

[rapid badger]

Thanks very much for sharing all that. Great context and feedback.

[white willow]

I agree with what you, think I will quit playing is I try grind to get endless mode which is sad really. I also think that fact splicing is only after you get to the first boss makes the grind feel way worst from P5 up. It's pure RNG is you get slapped in the first minute of a run by 3 alpha or not, then splicing itself being RNG makes the entire process feel very frustrating and not in a fun Dark Souls way, more banging my head on a concrete wall hoping the wall breaks.

[red roost]

I'm currently on Pressure 5 and have also hit a wall trying to get to 10 to unlock endless
Going to stop playing for now and it's really a shame because I have other games I want to play coming out soon and I don't know when I'll get back to this game as a result...

[real plinth]

hey guys, it honestly sounds like you're looking for something quite different than the current Endless mode.

We intentionally gate it behind P10 to ensure it remains a fair challenge for people who reach it but it sounds like what you're after is actually some form of sandbox mode where it's not about getting more difficult but just lasting forever.

For context: We tried this with several QA testers and the feedback was unanimously that it was boring and they simply didn't want to ever do endless runs.
We almost had to avoid adding Endless at all because it was very much not fun and was actually harmful to the game experience for most players.

We're still trying to see if we can find a middleground to help make it more available for those not looking for a challenge without it being detrimental to those that are.

I'm also tagging in @gloomy ermine on this thread

[covert forum]

The way I would put it is... If I'm OP, I want to keep being OP until I'm satisfied or the game out scales me.
Games like Risk of Rain 2, Vampire Survivors, Crab Champions, PlateUp!, and Megabonk. They let you keep going but keep scaling. Sometimes all it takes is a single mistake and your Endless ends..... and sometimes you get so insane you go AFK and come back and go: Alright, alright... I'm done. That was fun.

Maybe add a secret unlock early option or something? I found that repeating higher difficulties over and over trying to even get a semi-decent run, then finally getting a good run and it just ended in the demo made me sad but frustrating at times that I felt I had to keep restarting to get like a lucky Spawn of Chaos run to be able to make my way through the early stuff quickly.

I'd be fine if it was like... P2 or P4 or something because that feels more like: Alright, you got a handle on the game a bit, have fun. Not saying that the QA testers are wrong but I literally have no idea what they are talking about unless bosses stop spawning because it would just be fun if maybe like bosses started spawning as normal enemies the more you went or something, like Risk of Rain 2.

[errant oyster]

How about a cheat code to unlock advanced pressures?
You enter something like icantwaittoeatthisbagel or igildedthedemo ( ) and unlock e.g. P5, or P10 if you feel generous

Could also show a pop-up confirming [if this disqualifies from stuff]

Are you sure? You won't be able to use your scores for proof in <insert whatever here>, if you unlock Pressure 5 in this way
or similar.

Plus you get a permanent splash somewhere in the main menu saying you used that / possibly a flag in the debug dumps. Does that invalidate some community challenges / world records? Up to you to decide, but you'll have the info to make that decision

-# bonus points if you got the bagel reference, because that whole scene feels pretty relevant for this

[red roost]

I also don't get how the QA testers found it boring as many other successful rogue-likes let you continue until you lose like Ninja Puppy said
In fact, level based rogue-likes that force you to stop and restart are in the minority, I'd say

I really do not get their reasoning behind Endless Mode being boring
I just want my build to last longer than 15 minutes or however long it takes to complete a run

I'm already on Pressure 5 and the constant grind to 10 is burning me out so I might just never get to try Endless if it stays locked behind 10 this way
Not to mention you're asking way too much from players that might not be that good at the game and just want to play with their build for as long as they can manage in a lower Pressure difficulty

This unironically makes the game less accessible in my opinion

Furthermore, the Endless Mode button is displayed at the end of every run no matter the Pressure
Why then should it locked behind Pressure 10 if it can be triggered after a Pressure 1 run after it's been unlocked?
The button being there and greyed out is just telling the player "sorry, you're not good enough at our game to be able to take your build further"

QA testers test Quality Assurance, not necessarily fun.
That should be up to the players and I think more people would have said the same had they known before the game came out that Endless Mode would have been locked behind a difficulty setting that's half of the max difficulty
I might have not purchased the game had I known that, but since I already did and would like this game to be successful because I love the concept, I'm providing my honest feedback to the developers and asking them to reconsider this decision

Thank you for reading

[real plinth]

I also don't get how the QA testers found it boring as many other successful rogue-likes let you continue until you lose like Ninja Puppy said

I really do not get their reasoning behind Endless Mode being boring
They actually got to play it in that format (it was the 1st thing we tested). It was unanimously responded as boring to the point of we would be better not to release endless than to release in that state.

To be clear: we're not saying the concept in general doesn't work, only that when we tried it in that format it did not work well for EIC.

QA testers test Quality Assurance, not necessarily fun.
When I say our QA Testers I'm referring to a handpicked group of people from this very community who are very well versed in the game
We also had more traditional QA Testers who tested it as well and agreed with the sentiment however as you rightly said, they were more focused on the "health" of the game.

I'm providing my honest feedback to the developers and asking them to reconsider this decision
and we appreciate that and want to hear more from people about this topic 🙂

However I'm also giving you full transparency that we didn't just blindly choose this option. There were reasons behind it that we spent several months testing behind the scenes of which are not visible to you (hence why I'm trying to explain it to you here)

---

Like I said above: we're trying to find a solution that can help solve concerns like yours (as you're not the only one) however we won't do it at the expense of the wider playerbase hence why are trying to find a proper solution before introducing something that we know will be hated because we already tried it

[covert forum]

Yeah but I think an important factor is how endless evolves. Is it literally just normal enemies but harder? Does it still spawn bosses?

If Endless is boring.. why is it boring?

[real plinth]

it does 🙂

Unfortunately if you haven't had a chance to actually play the current version of endless, then it's not fair to judge it 😛
But I understand that getting there is not easy (it's something we're aware of as a problem but have not yet worked out a solution (but are very open to finding one with the community's help)

[covert forum]

I'm not judging it because I don't have the ability to lol

If no more bosses spawn, then I understand what you mean by it would get boring, but that isn't a frustration of having an endless mode, that would be a balance issue

[real plinth]

bosses do spawn 🙂 (in fact there's even some unique bosses that can only be found in endless!)

[covert forum]

Oh, then I have no idea

Just feels weird that its locked so far away

[gloomy ermine]

My take on endless being gated: there are several reasons why we chose to proceed this way

• Game fit: We understand that a lot of roguelikes have the possibility of enabling endless at any moment and "it just works" by letting players play forever, but for good or for bad, we are not as the majority of roguelikes 🙂 Our game systems are different in subtle and not so subtle ways (you dont even need to kill enemies to beat the game, think how much this single fact affects balance and endless play). We understand that there are a lot of games that do not have issues exponentially scaling their systems during endless (think balato as a clear example), but since we are not a 2-axis number game (no disrespect at all, its my goty from that year, just talking systemic complexity here), it just does not work like that for us. We have to take the good with the bad, we are allowed to be fresh and different because we made system/design sacrifices along the way. There are millions of balatro-likes that let ppl play endless easily, we are not in that realm for good and for bad.
• Balance: We still want endless to be meaningful and not get boring fast, which is a risk specially at low pressures and for new players who still do not have a correct evaluation of the game and systems. We tested and evaluated this to require endless only being accessible after certain key difficulty modifiers kick in, such as speed diminishing returns and many others. Because of how our systems work, making sure that endless was perfectly balanced for the initial pressures as well as for the later ones, was a daunting task that would have required us to re-do a lot of how the game works, resulting in a worse game overall just to enable an early endless. From a pragmatic point of view, this would have been a very bad call.

• Metaprogression: We still want players to experience and unlock stuff at the moment we belive is best for their skill level, commitment, and knowledge of the game, and we want the unlocked stuff to feel relevant. This does not meant we wont keep working on making endless better and potentially moving it ahead a bit if we believe it to be a better approach, but as it stands, this is where we believe most players starts yearning for increased playtime and extended possibilities for their builds, as well as an extra difficulty incentive. We dont want this to be instantly available for every player as that would detract the focus from other more meaningfull challenges. We understand this comes at a cost, but we believe it is the right balance at the moment.

[red roost]

Exactly this
I can't tell you if it's boring or not because we weren't even given the option to try it
If people would complain about you adding an option in the settings to unlock Endless Mode early for the people who want it, I don't know what that would say about those people
Providing an option is never bad

As Doom said in a Twitter post, "you control the buttons you press"
If the user wants to toggle that option on and then complain about it, that's on them, in my opinion
I think we should, at least, have the option to turn it on
The people who don't want to access it early because they find it boring would be happy as long as they don't willingly turn it on early and so would the people who do want to access it early

I really do not see a downside to this, but please tell me if there is one

[latent comet]

What about having it unlocked earlier but when you select it at a lower Pressure you get a message advising you that you'll get the "full experience" with Endless only at Pressures 10+?

You did probably consider something like this already but just in case you haven't 🤷‍♀️

[rain frost]

idk what the solution is, but i can definitely relate to being disappointed a run has ended after finally feeling "strong".

this could be me not knowing how to effectively build yet (or missing unlocks), but it does feel like the primary "viable" scaling method is size + hp + body slam.

hp can scale infinitely thanks to the ||camel|| evolution, and as far as i've played, other stats don't have reach that potential. in most endless modes, infinite scaling stats (or % based damage) seem to be big components in them feeling fun.

i'm also not a huge endless player overall, but i did a bit of it in brotato/vampire survivors/sort of heroes of hammerwatch 1.

[quick geyser]

I think one important thing to note is that early testing (alpha/beta/pre-launch QA) by nature is almost always only the most hardcore player base you'll have playing your game. By definition, it's the people who are invested before it comes out, and thus who are often veterans of the genre to the point where their skill is vastly higher than the majority of your eventual audience once the wider, more casual audience swarms a game at release.

I've playtested a couple dozen games and the number of devs who get blindsided because they had mostly "this is too easy" or 'these mechanics are fine" feedback in playtesting only to get hit with "this is too hard" or "this feels jank and awful" at launch is... really high. Like, REALLY high.

Just because something was deemed unanimously a bad idea in testing does not mean it will be unanimously hated by a broader player base as a whole.

(Also, I want to make it really clear that I'm not pointing fingers/casting blame or saying any particular group is wrong, more just trying to point out why feedback in a playtest can be/is often very different from feedback at launch.)

(Also on the note of difficulty, I have a bunch of friends I bought the game for because I was enthusiastic about it and knew they had hundreds of hours in VS, only for them to get stuck on P4-5 and then quit after <10h.)

[real plinth]

That's a valid point as a general rule of thumb but we have tested with a wide enough range of people at that stage that we're confident it didn't work.

We spent a huge amount of time testing this to be sure. It was not an easy decision that was taken lightly whatsoever... We knew it would result in these posts.

To give some context: while it's the 1st game for us as a studio, it's far from our 1st game as individuals, we've got a pretty good handle on this kind of slip up that can hurt more inexperienced Devs.

Not saying we're perfect to be clear, but given the rest of the game, I'd hope there's some level of trust when we are repeatedly saying we have tested it firmly and categorically say it would be bad for the game overall in the state we tried it.

I will repeat what I said above though: this doesn't mean that we aren't trying to find another way to make in more easily accessible. We're open to the feedback but if we're saying the version as described above did not work well (in our expert opinion as the creators of the game who tested it extensively) then we're not going to just add it like this.

We're open to finding a solution. But not the one we tested and know does not work.

[real plinth]

Good to know! Difficulty is such a variable factor. I'd say it's better to create a dedicated post for this one though so we don't intermingle the (semi-related) topics

[quick geyser]

Part of the problem with that is that, for me at least, they're inherently tied. If there was a mode where I could continue my runs, I wouldn't give a flying .. hoot about the currently difficulty. I don't really care about slamming my face into a higher difficulty if I can still access what to me feels like the core of the game. I really, genuinely don't care, so I don't have much feedback on things I would like to change in that regard. If an endless "continue this run with escalating difficulty" button was added, I would be like, "nope, no problems, the difficulty in the current iteration is perfect." If the difficulty was tripled and I couldn't get past P1, but could do endless with escalation on P0 that would ramp slowly to P1, again, I wouldn't complain.

The problem is specifically with Endless being locked behind P10, and the difficulty (for me personally) only really being relevant for the people (myself included) who cannot reach P10 to unlock what is in other games in the genre, usually where the meat and potatoes are.

The reason I mentioned it at all is more because it's gating so many people away from Endless, not because it's a core problem to the game. Going back and swapping down to lower pressure/heat/ramping/whatever term (or enabling/disabling run modifiers that add difficulty) is something I'm very used to in games, and I think that's true of a lot of players. It's just that usually games don't lock entire modes behind higher levels of difficulty.

[red roost]

Did you test adding an option to the settings to unlock it?
I cannot see any harm such an option would cause to game balance because it's an option
And it's a single-player game
I don't see why game balance matters so much when someone could just enable cheats through a trainer and make it to Pressure 10 that way 🤷‍♀️

[red roost]

With all due respect, my point is:
People will unlock the mode by doing what they have to do, be it playing the game and investing precious hours grinding to get to Pressure 10 or through other... less legitimate means.
To be blunt: when developers omit or block off something due to "balancing" in a single-player game, mods and cheats are made to bypass that because many players frankly don't care about what the developers think is or isn't balanced
If there's a will, there is a way.

I'm not saying someone will mod your game to unlock it but it's a possibility and just giving players the option instead of forcing them to find a way to bypass that restriction would make you more favourable in their eyes than not doing so for the sake of "balance".

You've given multiple reasons as to why this is but more and more people are telling you we'd simply like the option to not have to grind until Pressure 10 to unlock what we actually care about: Endless Mode; so at this point I think it might be good to listen to your player base and provide the option to those who want it.

There are negative reviews already about endless mode being locked behind P10 and I fear they will continue to show up.

[real plinth]

You've given multiple reasons as to why this is but more and more people are telling you we'd simply like the option to not have to grind until Pressure 10 to unlock what we actually care about: Endless Mode
As stated lots of times above: We're open to trying to find a way to make it work and allow accessing earlier. BUT the current version DOES NOT WORK WELL in easier Pressures (like at all).

If we keep going around the exact same topic I will need to lock the thread as this is eating up a lot of our time.

If you have suggestions of how we can adjust it to make it more meaningful at earlier stages then please do suggest them. But to give context: it would take hundreds of hours of work for us to rebalance and get it feeling halfway decent at earlier stages. This is factual.

so at this point I think it might be good to listen to your player base and provide the option to those who want it.
Iterating the above point: You're making it sound like I'm saying we don't want to make it happen. That's not the case and if you believe it is, I will ask you to reread every message we have posted above. It's that it cannot work well in its current form for EIC specifically (Denis gave a great breakdown of several reasons why above too).

I have stated multiple times that we're open to try and find a good way to solve this but to be extremely blunt and stop further discussion on repeating the same point: The current endless does not work well from the early pressures and would be very detrimental to the game for a much larger playerbase

There are negative reviews already about endless mode being locked behind P10 and I fear they will continue to show up.
Yeah we know and it hurts a lot to see them given how much we've put into the game :/

But we also know it would be substantially more negative reviews if endless was in a really poor state because that it's not even slightly balanced for P1 and similar.

---

Again for clarity: I want to keep this thread open to have healthy conversation and potentially/ideally find a solution together for a future update. But if you keep just repeating the just make it available earlier style responses, then this is not going anywhere.

[red roost]

How can I give suggestions for something I cannot try though?
I don't know what endless is like because it's locked.
I have 0 time or interest to get to P10 as I don't enjoy scaling difficulties.
I have work to do and other games to play.

We're not asking you to rebalance anything...

[real plinth]

yeah I get that :/

[red roost]

You're replying like we are asking you to force it on from the start for every player when we're asking for an option in the settings
The way we are suggesting it, it wouldn't affect a much larger player base, only the ones who want it on

[latent comet]

I suppose you could watch someone streaming endless mode but idk if you're into that or how much you'd be able to glean about the difficulty as an observer. Unsure if specific criteria for an all-around satisfactory solution are known, but if so they would be helpful to know so those with endless unlocked can give relevant and useful feedback/ideas

[outer grotto]

Yeah, current Endless Mode strange. You won't be able to stay there for long - the difficulty increase very quickly and it's only available after level 10. It would be nice to have a separate game mode such as "New Game", but "Sandbox" or "Endless Mode" and available by default or after completing the tutorial.

[red roost]

So what actually happens if you press the Endless Mode button after you finish a Pressure 1 run?
The button is there, just greyed out
Does the difficulty immediately ramp up to P10?
If so, that's the problem
It should follow the original difficulty otherwise it makes no sense to have the option after every Pressure run

Please enlighten me as I cannot see what it's like for myself because I've hit a wall in P6 and burned out

[outer grotto]

It looks like difficult stay on P1, but increase so fast.

However, I haven't tested this. I've only played Endless Mode on P12

[red roost]

I'm not saying the difficulty should stay exactly how it was but it shouldn't ramp up to P10 quickly either imo
Again, just from what you're saying since I haven't tried it

[red roost]

I'd have to find a streamer doing what I specifically want to test which is seeing how far Endless can go after a Pressure 1 run
It's very specific

[outer grotto]

But i don't belive in this. Otherwise, that button only available at P10, but button available in P1

[latent comet]

It seems to wipe out the current map and place you onto a new one. You keep your current evolutions and stats after beating the final boss. I've only done a bit of the first stage of endless so I can't tell you much about it or the way it scales. There are new, stronger versions of bosses and you get a new boss timeline at the top of the screen.

[latent comet]

Someone in the server might be willing to do this in one of the VCs (I would but I am putting off other things right now 😅)

[errant oyster]

Adding a couple details to it, you start a new "loop" of the same game, but everything is scaled up, including enemies' speed, and I think the boss timer (it felt faster, not sure if just feeling or actually faster)
Healing is reduced (except mushrooms), progress is reduced, and killing the final boss automatically resets to a higher tier again, with seemingly further scaling on all

[outer grotto]

No, difficult differs. P - damage and HP enemies icrease low, just more functions and debuffs. Difficult in Endless Mode consists of increase damage and HP very fast.

[latent comet]

Agree that the timeline appears to progress faster

[errant oyster]

Notably, enemies keep their evolution, so even the first loop will have you fighting ++ enemies

Also, strong agree with mloccy - it feels like Endless is a completely separate scaling to what Pressures present
even the first loop felt a bit ridiculous with how high the numbers went
I would assume that going in from P1 might offer a progress benefit, but the difficulty / scaling is likely going to be the same even if you started from P20

[rapid badger]

Endless mode isn't available for difficulties lower than P10, for the reasons Chazz mentioned more than once above. If you've unlocked it and win a P1 run, the button is greyed out, with a tooltip that says "Only available at Pressure 10 and higher".

Given you wrote "I don't like scaling difficulties" I have to implore you to really re-read Chazz's messages again in this thread. The very first sentence he wrote here, which I think is critical and I keep coming back to - "it honestly sounds like you're looking for something quite different than the current Endless mode". Endless mode scales faster, and harder, than regular pressure runs. From everything you've written here, you'd absolutely hate it.

This is why I'm so keen on the idea of a custom mode / sandbox mode. This would scratch your itch. And the team is keen to build something that you and others would like!

[red roost]

I think you really should remove the button if it can't ever be pressed in runs below 10 then

It makes it seem like you can trigger Endless after any Pressure difficulty

[quick geyser]

If you have suggestions of how we can adjust it to make it more meaningful at earlier stages then please do suggest them. But to give context: it would take hundreds of hours of work for us to rebalance and get it feeling halfway decent at earlier stages. This is factual.
Personally, my suggestion is to have a "Continue" button at the end of a previous run. Have it escalate from that PX level to halfway through PX+1, or some other partway point (would probably need testing) between the start of the next pressure (too easy) and the end (sudden spike). Maybe start with what the next pressure would have right after the very first boss. That would be inherently easier than doing that particular pressure since you'd have your build from the previous pressure, but allow the player to continue through escalating pressure levels. At the end of each pressure, continue that trend of "go to next pressure partway through" until the player eventually dies, then tell them "Hey, this is the pressure you reached in the end, congratulations!" with the normal screen.

For me personally, though I can't speak for everyone, that would make it so that runs on previous pressures didn't feel like they ended too quickly, while also offering a gentler difficulty curve (since you'd have the power of a more complete build compared to the lower power you'd have playing that pressure from the start.) That would also allow for a sort of 'training' to the player getting used to the increased difficulty/abilities of the enemies/environmental scaling from that pressure.

[red roost]

I'd love Custom Mode, yeah
I just want to be able to take my OP build further than the current run
Endless being tied to the current difficulty would be ideal to me as it would actually be endless if you were OP
Boring? Maybe, but I could keep my build going to see how far I can take it
Make it scale but not infinitely, I guess

[outer grotto]

Sandbox mode sounds like a good idea, because I'm confident that many people want this game mode

[quick geyser]

Though yes, having a pure sandbox mode would also be a boon for people just wanting to mess around with OP builds and a power fantasy. (Not personally what I'm into and I think slightly different but related to the OG suggestion, but I know a LOT of people really enjoy that kind of thing.)

[rapid badger]

That's fair, yeah. Might be worth revisiting that.

[red roost]

That's the impression I was under and it's disappointing to find out it can only be triggered after 10 anyway

I'm going to be honest in saying that I probably wouldn't have bought the game had I known that but I already did so now I'd like to see it improve

[rapid badger]

Understood, sorry to hear that, but thank you for your faith and patience 🙂

We will get there 🦀

[red roost]

I get how hard it can be to make and balance a game as I have done/do game development myself
I think what you have so far in terms of gameplay and mechanics is incredible but having a mode where you can just play endlessly no matter the difficulty would make it even better
Balanced doesn't always mean fun hah
I guess it might be better suited for a Sandbox Mode than the current Endless Mode implementation, so I could make a separate thread for it

[latent comet]

Ah yeah I hadn't tried doing endless after a P1 and kind of assumed I'd be able after unlocking it at P10

[rapid badger]

I think that might be the play. Then we can focus in on what an ideal custom mode would look like.
Personally, I'd love a custom mode too. Endless is hard lol

[rapid badger]

Entirely fair assumption and one that many folks have also made too!

[red roost]

Yeah, I'm not really interested in hard hahah
I'm playing other games to take a break from my favourite genre which is Souls(-like)
I just wanna make a silly little guy super powerful through evolution

[rapid badger]

Awesome. Do you want me to make the Custom mode thread, or do you want to have a go?

[red roost]

I can do it, no worries
I'm sure you have your hands full already hahah

Made a thread if people would like to chime in with suggestions!

[real plinth]

Thank you ☺️

[quick geyser]

(FWIW, what I want really does feel more like an Endless mode, just available on lower difficulties, so I'll keep responding here and trying to come up with balancing ideas/suggestions (though I'm no game dev personally), but probably won't be active there since I think what I'm looking for personally isn't really relevant there.)

[whole coral]

As an experienced player with hundreds of hours who has unlocked endless...the people who are new don't know how fast endless ramps up from the normal game. It is substantially more difficult and not at all for inexperienced players who are struggling with pressure 1-10. If you got endless mode early it would be very unfair and unfun for a new player. As a roguelite fan of many games including games with endless modes (I once had a Vampire Survivors endless go a whole week irl).

This. Game. Is not. Vampire Survivors or other roguelites. Vampire Survivors is a game where when you get OP enough you don't even have to do inputs. In this game you always need to be doing inputs. Endless in this game is an extreme challenge not a gradually scaling extended mode. It scales very drastically and enemy spawns are very much higher with a lot more alphas and bosses do insane damage.

I'm just here to say the endless mode in Everything is Crab is not for the faint of heart which is why devs gated it behind pressure 10.

[whole coral]

You don't enjoy scaling difficulties but want endless mode??? Endless mode is THE scaling difficulty. I'm saying if you could have Endless from the get go many players wanting Endless who can't make it to P10 WILL QUIT ANYWAY and complain it's too hard scaling.

[solar swan]

What if explorer mode (pressure 0?) was endless. Like literally an easy sandbox mode that barely scales. balance wouldn’t matter all that much if it’s meant to be easy mode

[real plinth]

Very well put! Thank you 🙂

[whole coral]

One of my favorite aspects of this game and what keeps me playing so much is the challenge aspect and it baffles me that new players who are struggling with lower pressures want one of the hardest challenges this game has to offer available from the get go?

I think these new players have expectations from other games and expect this game to be the same which it isnt. Everything is Crab is a challenge focused roguelite where the entire gameplay loop is completing challenge runs. And I think when new players ask for Endless they are sorely misunderstanding the concept of this game and dont know what they would be getting themselves into.

If you gave them Endless at the current state new player experience would be even worse. They try endless once complain about how hard it is and unbalanced and quit and leave bad reviews anyway.

Personally I think the game just isn't for some people. If you think getting to P10 is a huge ask....well I have news that's only halfway 😂 not even close really to "beating" the game. This game has 100s of hours or content easily but only if you like challenges.

Sadly the gameplay loop isn't for everyone and that's okay. No game can be for everyone.

[quick geyser]

I mean personally, I want a challenge that ramps, but that does so more gently. I'm not saying I want to stay at P0 the entire time, my specific example, for instance, was starting at P4, then after the run is over, progressing from there into just after the first or second boss of P5. Then at that point, progress into the same general vicinity in P6, etc. It would still be an escalating challenge, just one that's gentler for having the build partially in progress rather than getting wiped out before I can even begin. I'm not expecting to get all the way to the highest difficulty, but I'm also not enjoying my runs being over in 10-15min or whatever it is. That's why I want something that takes the difficulty level I can play at, then ramps it up with a gentler start until I can't handle it anymore.

It's not like there has to be a binary "you play at P0 or P10, there is nothing in between." Nor does it have to be "you play with zero challenge in a chill sandbox mode." For me personally, I use the example of P4->P5->P6, but it could just as easily be someone playing from P2 on, or P8 on, or whatever else.

When I first started talking about "I wish Endless would unlock earlier," it was without knowing how quickly it escalated (or started at? it's unclear) to P10. Once I knew that, that's why I started instead suggesting that it be a "continue run" button that would ramp difficulty from where a player could handle instead. That's ultimately my biggest problem: runs feel too short. I don't think artificially extending the time is a good option, so having a ramping "continue in endless from here" option is the best, most seamless way I can think of to implement it. 🤷‍♂️

At this point it really just feels like I'm instead getting a "/throws up hands. Sorry, can't be done, it can only ever be high difficulty, it's impossible to concieve of any other way." and that just... feels bad, honestly.

[red roost]

When I say I don't like scaling difficulties I mean I don't want to play the same thing over and over again with the changes being -Player Damage +Enemy Damage
I like difficulties that add new enemies or new moves to enemies like Souls-like games like Nioh 2 do (which I now know Endless does but it still does what I don't like which is number inflation/deflation)
I beat that game 5 times because it changes with every NG+
EIC is an entirely different kind of difficulty from what I am used to (when it comes to Pressures)

Saying "the game just isn't for some people" is like saying "git gud" and it's not a great thing for the community to do.
The whole point of this thread was to provide suggestions on what we would like the game to improve on.
I thought the Endless Mode I couldn't experience was what I wanted but quickly realised it was not.

I'm not sure why you're surprised I didn't know what Endless Mode was like when I couldn't try it out anyway.
I was making assumptions on what it was like because I hadn't experienced it myself and quickly realised it wasn't what I thought it was when people who had actually experienced it explained what it was like.

I made a new thread for Sandbox Mode as a result and I'm no longer interacting with this thread.

I think our definition of difficulty is very different.
I like games that get more challenging in terms of mechanical skill, which this game does.
But games where at some point you just start getting one shot or deal no damage for no reason? That's not real difficulty, that's artificial difficulty.

Again, I'm not saying the game does this in Endless Mode because I haven't tried it as I am NOT interested in grinding to P10 when I get gradually more nerfed and the enemies OP.
That's not my idea of difficulty and it turns progression into a frustrating slog.

[red roost]

Completely agree with everything you said

Last thing I will say on this topic as I'd rather focus on the prospect of Sandbox Mode:

If this game is meant to, unironically, be the new "Dark Souls" of its genre, it really should be stated how difficult it is in the store page.
Right now it looks like a game anyone can play but people keep telling us people who can't or don't want to make it to P10 that's clearly not the case.

The store page lists a "Difficulties system"
It does not tell you that you will have to reach halfway through the max difficulty to unlock a game mode a lot of people are interested in nor that that game mode is insanely hard as people say it is and not what they're looking for if they're looking for a relaxed Spore-like experience where they can play potentially forever and be OP.

I don't think you should be surprised that people come here to complain the game gets too hard too quickly when they weren't informed prior to their purchase that that's what it would be like.

[whole coral]

Good points and I saw your sandbox thread that's more in line of what I think you and others are wanting. This game does add new moves to enemies like soul likes do as you progress to higher Pressures and even Endless gives new movesets to enemies and bosses we well as stat boosts.

I'm not saying git gud I'm saying you aren't experienced yet and that's okay everyone has their own level. But again the core is this is a challenge based roguelite where the challenges become more and more difficult as you progress and that may not be for everyone.

Some people posted bad reviews that it's boring facing the same enemies on the same maps over and over again which is fair but this game is built around achieving more and more difficult challenges not necessarily variety of enemies and maps.

I play souls games as well and in those games as well yes it can be boiled down to git gud because it's all about practice and training yourself. This game is very similar and gaining skills like movement efficiency is very key so you can handle things like being rushed by a mob of Beeware as soon as the game starts and learning how to side step their attacks even with no move speed or in difficult terrain. No different from learning patterns in Souls games and how not to get too greedy.

I'm not saying what you want is wrong, it's not but the currently endless mode just isn't for you or other new players and sandbox or another new mode is better for you. Your needs and wants are valid and different folks enjoy different things.

[red roost]

I didn't mean to come across as aggressive or anything so apologies if that's what it came across as.
I think what I'm trying to say is that I think the game would be fine with more movesets and enemies without the huge stat boosts
Boost their stats, sure, but not to the point where you die in one or two hits like Elden Ring does in the late game hah

If Endless Mode ends too quickly because the "difficulty" scales like crazy, is it really Endless?

I think the name of the mode is what's making more and more people confused as they are expecting to continue playing for a while and not have their run end because they got one-shot by rapidly scaling enemies

Again, I'm going off the "really hard really fast" reports I was provided by people who have tried it.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.

[whole coral]

This game does both. Boosts stats and movesets in later pressures and Endless.

[whole coral]

It is. Some have stated having made it 5+ Extinctions in Endless, which is how many 'cycles' there are which are endlessly and keep scaling up. Personally I can't speak for the scaliing past Extinction 1 because I havent made it past that yet.

[whole coral]

I agree that the game mode name has a lot to do with the confusion and maybe a renaming could be a way to help mitigate the confusion.

[red roost]

Maybe Extinction Mode would just be better if the cycles are Extinctions
Do enemy types actually go extinct?

[whole coral]

Extinction would probably be a better name for it lol but no enemy types do not go extinct. At the end of the 'cycle' when al the meteors fall the screen whites out because there was a 'mass extinction' event then you spawn somewhere new having survived and start over again with enemies being much harder.

I think it's a mode that can be expanded on with time and as Devs mentioned the game nearly shipped without it due to the trouble they had ironing it out. I think it has quite a bit of growing to do and we should see adjustments in future updates.

[red roost]

That's fair
It would be cool to see weaker species go extinct like in Spore as it goes on to really hammer in the "survival of the fittest" aspect
But yeah, the name should probably be changed as it's very confusing as it stands 😅

Don't really have any other suggestions as I'm still on P6 since I haven't gone back to the game yet
I'll leave it to the experts

[rose copper]

Not to dredge up a topic from a few days ago but was linked here when asking in general chat.

I was admittedly a bit bummed to see that Endless was blocked behind P10 which honestly is probably gonna take me 10-20 hours just to see, especially when I've had some nutty builds already, but I can see where the devs/testers are coming from. It feels like there's two camps with the devs leaning on the side of a challenging and balanced experience in Endless, with others in the camp of wanting more of a power fantasy where they can take their crazy build as far as the game will let them(regardless of difficulty).

Since my progress reset in the full game, I haven't personally been able to experience Endless yet but I'm definitely in the camp of preferring my roguelikes to have it available on any run. Though it really sounds like it would probably have to be a different mode or custom setting to please everyone. I'm personally kind of having the awkward experience where runs feel too long to quickly get to my preferred Pressure level(and unlock endless mode), but feel way too short whenever I get a really fun build online and 1 or 2 shot the final boss lol

[whole coral]

Personally I don't wanna do a EIC run that's hours long like endless in Vampire Survivors 😂 endless in this game is more like NG+ in other games

[rose copper]

That's insane 😂

I'll have to see what Endless in this game is like. To be honest I have so many evolutions by the end of a regular run that I'm not sure what more there is for me to get once it starts but Ill have to take a look and see once I get there....eventually lol

[whole coral]

I had an endless run last a week in vampire Survivors. EIC is not really a viable game for that 😂

I just left my computer on and let it run with no inputs for a whole week.

[rose copper]

I kinda like Balatros level of endless scaling. Starts off reasonable and then rapidly scales faster than what most runs can keep up with(unless you really break the game with some infinite setups)

[whole coral]

That's how this game works.

[rose copper]

I guess I'm confused how the lower pressures were "boring" then. Was it just too easy somehow, even with the scaling?

[whole coral]

That's how endless works. Endless isn't available below pressure 10. The point of endless being available later is that it will be overwhelmingly difficult for inexperienced players. It's less about build strength and more about player experience. Endless is a very unforgiving challenge in this game and the difference in a normal pressure and endless difficulty is substantial.

I've lost 500 health in less than 2 seconds in Endless before. It's no joke.

[rose copper]

I suppose I could see that. I do understand keeping the average players experience in mind, even if I'm not personally a fan of games holding harder difficulties hostage behind playing the easier content of the game

Especially when I already have time in it from the demo that didn't carry over 😅

[whole coral]

It's an experience gate. I've seen lots of games lock harder challenges and difficulties behind experience such as beating the game on hard to unlock the hardest difficulty in some games.

New players will jump right to the hard challenge and difficulties and then complain game too hard

[rose copper]

I personally don't think it's a great design choice but that's just getting into subjective territory

People will always find something to complain about lol

[whole coral]

True but the number complaining about this will be less than those that get endless on their first run and quit out of frustration

[rose copper]

Yeah I don't doubt that they did plenty of testing to confirm that would be the case. Can't please everyone

[turbid ridge]

from what I have read so far to catch up on the conversation, endless being hard is the reason its not allowed to be played starting from a lower pressure even if you have already unlocked it at p10, and the problem is that people complain about it being hard instead of just slapping a "this is higher difficulty" label on it like every other ng+ game?

theres too many things going on that seem rather arbitrary

[real plinth]

Not sure I follow? What would you suggest?

[turbid ridge]

any of a myriad of options that people have suggested, such as letting you play endless at any difficulty either after unlocking or unlocked from the start and i guess make it clear its got what allegedly too many people think is too difficult a scaling rate (which is another thing you can adjust in itself considering the nature of why people like endless modes). If you give people sandbox mode with all the options people asked for, you'll find out how people really want to play the game through analytics.

although i myself didn't find the scaling hard, honestly easier than increasing pressures because i get to keep my build. its easier than having gotten to extinction 1 in the first place as I find im just gambling to the first boss and that decides if im winning or not overall

[real plinth]

To be clear: sandbox is a separate discussion to endless, let's keep it as such on #1502826773132480683

[turbid ridge]

and i brought it up, because its relevant here where i said "if" and "you'll find out how people really want to play the game through analytics" which is relevant because the supposed problem is people supposedly thinking endless is too hard so ya'll locked it behind pressure 10

[real plinth]

This feels like it's going a very unpleasant tone...

I will remind you that Kindness is Key being an important rule before responding further.

Now addressing your comment: I've elaborated in detail numerous times above that endless as it is now is not something that would work well for players new to the game.

We do have telemetry data on endless progression for people trying it out. We are basing our decisions on such data and are currently allowing that data to grow so that more people can reach this Pressure to try it out to ensure that data is statistically relevant

It's exactly because we're not basing this decision of a single person's request that we've gated it. We had literally months of testing and discussion on this. It was not a decision made at the whim of the moment without any previous information.

And as I've mentioned above: we're actively open and trying to find a solution that allows both types of player to enjoy the game endlessly without it being detrimental to those who actively are seeking a hard time.

We have some plans in the future updates which should make it a lot more accessible to get to and are also evaluating what a separate sandbox mode could look like ☺️

[turbid ridge]

My words aren't pretty, but im honest and neutral, its unkind to me to not be. If you want me to leave for providing honest feedback in the feedback forum, ok, would have been nice to not mislead me, but ok.

That out of the way, ya'll are getting plenty of feedback not from just one person, sometimes what we interpret from data is not what the data says, stats don't lie, its just us humans that misunderstand them.

"we're actively open and trying to find a solution that allows both types of player to enjoy the game endlessly without it being detrimental to those who actively are seeking a hard time." which is why we provide feedback in the feedback forum, expecting some sort of constructive back and forth.

As for "that allows both types of player to enjoy the game endlessly without it being detrimental to those who actively are seeking a hard time." thats what endless scaling is for, difficulty is supposed to be determined by time. Spread it out and maybe throw in checkpoints.

"and are also evaluating what a separate sandbox mode could look like" it shall certainly be more elucidating the more custom it is, very useful for devs and very fun for players 👌

[real plinth]

My words aren't pretty, but im honest and neutral, its unkind to me to not be. If you want me to leave for providing honest feedback in the feedback forum, ok, would have been nice to not mislead me, but ok.
We want honest feedback. That's not in question here, but I want to ensure it's not delivered in an unkind way.
Honesty and kindness are not mutually exclusive.
There's no misleading here, that's a strange statement to make.

Again it's not at an unkind stage yet but it does seem to be heading that way in your previous message which is why I raised it to ensure that the conversation remains constructive and actually helpful to solving the problem (which is very much wanted & desired) rather than becoming blamey/attacking (which is not acceptable within the server from and/or to anyone).

That out of the way, ya'll are getting plenty of feedback not from just one person, sometimes what we interpret from data is not what the data says, stats don't lie, its just us humans that misunderstand them
Of course! But we also have feedback going in the other direction as well as you can see in this thread above.
It's also important not to just listen to a vocal minority without further evaluating what the actual underlying issue is and taking on a wider set of data to base the decisions on.
So instead we're gathering feedback in general (in both directions) to try and have a better understanding of it so that we actually solve it properly rather than rush out a half baked idea that we know from previous testing don't work and risk making it worse for all people.

It's been 11 days since we launched and we're already actively trying to find solutions in the near future updates to improve this. That alone should strongly resonate that we're not just dismissing this as a finished feature.

As for "that allows both types of player to enjoy the game endlessly without it being detrimental to those who actively are seeking a hard time." thats what endless scaling is for, difficulty is supposed to be determined by time. Spread it out and maybe throw in checkpoints.
with the amount of build variety in the game and how some of them are more slow/fast burners, spreading it out too much is incredibly boring for many players (strong unanimous feedback from the ~20 players who tried it outside of the team from varying abilities and skill levels).
This was literally the 1st thing we tested and spent about 70%+ of the time we had on it trying to get working.

It didn't work, at all. This is what I've been (repeatedly) saying above: we tried this and it didn't work due to the nature of EIC specifically.
That's why we started with what we have right now so at least some players can be satiated by it with the intention of further expanding it

"and are also evaluating what a separate sandbox mode could look like" it shall certainly be more elucidating the more custom it is, very useful for devs and very fun for players
Yeah I personally think this is the right solution (or at least 1 of them) to go forward with. That way it gives:

• "endless" access much earlier on (maybe even from the very start or maybe after the 1st Pressure or just completing the tutorial, still TBC)
• much more customisation to allow people to experiment with and learn how to play on their own terms
• new game mode to keep things fresh
• allows current Extinction level endless to stay as it is for hardcore players who are looking for a real challenge (a huge portion of our target audience to be clear)
• doesn't alienate players who aren't as skilled from playing

There's a big discussion of potential things we can add here over on #1502826773132480683 that you may want to look at to see what the current going idea(s) are

[turbid ridge]

"Again it's not at an unkind stage yet" I don't understand bringing it up / derailing to it then.

"with the amount of build variety in the game and how some of them are more slow/fast burners, spreading it out too much is incredibly boring for many players (strong unanimous feedback from the ~20 players who tried it outside of the team from varying abilities and skill levels).
This was literally the 1st thing we tested and spent about 70%+ of the time we had on it trying to get working. "
couldn't they still play scaling at a rate according to the pressure they start it from? dynamic scaling 🤷‍♂️

"There's a big discussion of potential things we can add here over on ⁠Sandbox Mode that you may want to look at to see what the current going idea(s) are" yeah it looked like they covered everything and didn't need any additional nuance yet so i just left some emojis, seems much more in its infancy.

[real plinth]

"Again it's not at an unkind stage yet" I don't understand bringing it up / derailing to it then.
Because it felt like it was heading in that direction and I want to course correct before it gets there so that we can remain having a constructive conversation without unkindness

couldn't they still play scaling at a rate according to the pressure they start it from? dynamic scaling 🤷‍♂️
The current version does scale according to the Pressures (P10 endless is much easier than P20).
What endless Pressures have you tried so far (and how far did you get in each out of curiosity)?

But, the key thing here is that we couldn't get something that felt even remotely fun for endless at P1 that wasn't a mix of farrrr too difficult for new players at the same time of being far too easy for players that can reach higher Pressures without issue.

If it was as simple as snapping our fingers and making it work, we'd do it! But it takes countless hours (literally hundreds of hours) to get endless working even at only P10-20.

[turbid ridge]

"Because it felt like it was heading in that direction and I want to course correct before it gets there so that we can remain having a constructive conversation without unkindness" its like seeing a future and causing it by trying to avoid it xD

"The current version does scale according to the Pressures" it does? p10 and p15 felt the same to me, just with the higher additive base difficulties.
got to e1 on p10 and e3 on p15 (honestly the most anticlimactic deaths, getting clipped into something to wait for death and getting one shot in my desire to be beefy boi). p10 because lowest difficulty available, p15 because boss offspring was neat enough to keep going, no p20 endless because massive slog to get through once p18.

"farrrr too difficult for new players at the same time of being far too easy for players that can reach higher Pressures without issue"
isn't that what dynamic scaling fixes? lower skill players enjoy a lesser scaling and players at higher pressures enjoy a faster scaling? if thats already in, i seriously have not noticed any difference.

"If it was as simple as snapping our fingers and making it work, we'd do it! But it takes countless hours (literally hundreds of hours) to get endless working even at only P10-20" no rush was intended.

[idle bridge]

Personally, I'm wildly disappointed that endless isn't available below dif 10. One of my favorite things to do with these kinds of games is to just dick around at a low dif level and vibe. I've spent many hours just seeing how far i can take a dif 2 brotato run while listening to an audiobook, but i can't really do that at dif 10

[meager geyser]

the absolute sadness i felt aftergrinding my way to level 10 only to be sbubbed at pressure one. was looking for a relaxing run. im mediocre gamer at best. just want to relax and go nuts.