Berserker buff

[tender glen]

Your transformation is untied to your kill count for example, you will always be able to attack n2 and later, have powerful on n3, rampage on n4, and transform into war on d5

This change is mainly to prevent tav/jailor/pois from feeling too oppressive, and to incentivize making potentially risker plays instead of forcing you to kill low priority targets.

[mellow compass]

Problem:
Bers afks, no one knows there's bers, then War happens

[tender glen]

AA problem mostly, and waiting until d5 just for 2 kpn isn't worth

[short granite]

That sounds like an intentional designspace

With the post

[short granite]

I still think Bers should kill at least one person before transforming into War

But I likey

[mellow compass]

I think a better version that makes it so bers still needs kills, is just making it so bers can attack every night except n1

[short granite]

Which it already can do in modded

[mellow compass]

Bers is supposed to be loud

[tender glen]

That's just modded

[mellow compass]

It does?

I thought the first kill made it so it can attack every night as well as have powerful attacks

[short granite]

It can attack every night starting n2

Kill 1 is basic to powerful
Everything else is the same

[tender glen]

Potential additional change

You may attack night 1 if you have the book

[mellow compass]

Honestly in that case its fine then
Worst case scenario you're delayed by a day

[half hawk]

what if they can attack n1

but usually cant because of grace perios

[vivid eagle]

I like this change but it wouldn't work in TAA.

Imagine staying home all 4 days to get rampaging 2 kpn

[tender glen]

You still get it either way? If you were just staying home and not using your ability, you're just wasting your influence as an NK, and in TAA, you will need to balance out the game to win in most lists.

[vivid eagle]

the issue is that NKs dont get buffs for staying home. Bers being able to get 2kpn, rampage and invincible defense after 3 nights of not killing isnt exactly fair

[tender glen]

Yes, but why stay home when you can kill, and get to transform into war

It's the same thing, it's just that you didn't influence the game beforehand, why is one "unfair", when killing is still the majority of the time optimal

[tender glen]

Even when it's "unoptimal" to kill, you do not have the information to make that decision in TAA

War is only effectively "death" when it has already thinned town's numbers to make 2 kpn into a win-con

[tender glen]

Even then, when compared to something like SC, which has minimal/rare impact in the game and only is loud when it's death day

[mellow compass]

I far healthier version, is giving all apoc roleblock immunity when solo

[vivid eagle]

Because it isnt always optimal to kill. I can guarantee you that the winrate is higher if you dont kill until n4-5 compared to killing every night.

You dodge Invest and coro, tav may out you.

Just by knowing your existance, town can somewhat judge their numbers. Knowing killpower potential makes you play differently as townie

[mellow compass]

this ^

[tender glen]

It still punishes you for not killing low priority targets, since TP abilities still just delay you

[mellow compass]

thats, fine...

with how bers currently works, hitting TP isn't that punishing

[vivid eagle]

unless trapper/bg

[mellow compass]

yeah but thats a rare case

[tender glen]

Not killing and confirming two townies is a major hindrance, you don't need to punish the bers harder

[mellow compass]

but there's also a limited amount of TP

meaning that only certain people will be protected

usually TI end up being safe to kill

but being able to AFK is broken and OP

there's NEVER be a reason to kill anyone

[tender glen]

Like, reaching majority?

[mellow compass]

just lynch evils and sus townies every day, then war suddenly appears and town is completely decimated

[vivid eagle]

unless you have an sc or youre the main faction but thats besides the point

[mellow compass]

you can't hit maj as solo

[mellow compass]

I'm focusing on solo bers

[vivid eagle]

If youre reaching majority, typically you arent solo

[vivid eagle]

just pointing it out

[tender glen]

Tying votes is just as good as "majority"

[mellow compass]

true

[vivid eagle]

Typically if youre in a 1v1, you dont really need the buffs anyways

its usually town kingmaker at that point

[mellow compass]

yeah, its better to make town think there's no hidden extra evil if you're solo bers

because by the time you pop, you're absolutely decimating town every night and they'll have no way of finding or getting rid of you

[vivid eagle]

Odds are, if youre tying votes, youve killed beforehand anyways and the kingmaker has sided you

[mellow compass]

Being forced to kill at least makes town LOOK for a bers

[vivid eagle]

I say make it so they only gain half the charge. So they fully transform by n6

although maybe that would be really weak

[mellow compass]

still can kill normally

[vivid eagle]

true but id rather transform on n7 as death than bers

[mellow compass]

but sure, hitting Defense could give you an additional half charge

wait

[vivid eagle]

ooh i like that actually

[mellow compass]

thats useless

[tender glen]

Yes, but why is "afk strat in the meme mode" different from SC/WL. SC/WL doesn't even need to influence the game to win, there is not a "warning" before death day

[mellow compass]

there is, in the form of TI disruption

[vivid eagle]

also WL can be trespassing and found by spies

[mellow compass]

true

[tender glen]

When have you seen TI actually be fooled by an SC, and town specifically pick up that it was an SC that did it

Especially in AA

[mellow compass]

quite frequently?

[mellow compass]

dont balance around AA

[vivid eagle]

i mean this buff is kinda meant for TAA

[mellow compass]

that isn't a mode in BTOS 2 (unless you count TAA but no)

[tender glen]

You're disliking this because there is an afk strat in aa

[mellow compass]

And thats good because...?

[tender glen]

Which only works in aa

[mellow compass]

so why are you making a buff intended for a single roledeck that is barely played

[vivid eagle]

I dont like afk strats because that goes against the point behind NKs but with how NKs work, its a necessary strat.

But it shouldnt benefit for not doing anything

[tender glen]

I'm not

[vivid eagle]

SC requires their reaped targets to die

[mellow compass]

^

[mellow compass]

You literally are

[vivid eagle]

WL needs their targets to guilty

[tender glen]

I'm not making this for AA, read the post again

[vivid eagle]

Bers sits theres and does nothing and gains a buff

NKs dont get buffs when they dont kill

see the difference?

[tender glen]

NKs don't get buffs at all

[vivid eagle]

NKs are bad overall tbh

but my point still stands

[mellow compass]

a more balanced version of this, that gets the SAME result, is Bers getting a level on ATTEMPTED attacks

[half hawk]

i think you should let berserker attack n1 with this buff

there is no reason it cant attack n1

[tender glen]

"WW is so busted, they can just afk until n4 and be able to get powerful rampaging attacks every night without even giving town a warning"

[vivid eagle]

WW cannot kill 2 people and only gets powerful. It can be defended against by all tps and potentially die to trapper and bg

War does not have such weaknesses

[half hawk]

i dont get their point either. Sc also does nothing and has a higher payoff

[mellow compass]

they cant afk, because any full moon they dont visit THEY ATTTACK ALL VISITORS
and trackers tend to track other trackers

[tender glen]

Don't claim your claimbag then?

[vivid eagle]

sc requires until d8 for transform max. Bers only needs until d5 max

[tender glen]

Yes, but you don't win the game if you transform as bers

[vivid eagle]

if sc tranforms earlier its because of reaps which can allude to its existance

[half hawk]

if you require d8 then either you are really unlucky or just bad at the game

[mellow compass]

no D8 is the MAXIMUM.
read what they said

[half hawk]

keyword "can"

[vivid eagle]

may as well, rampgae 2 unstoppable kpn is really broken

[vivid eagle]

either you wait until d8 or you reap and potentially expose your existence. Pick your poison

[tender glen]

Not when half of the town is confirmed, since you didn't kill any of the confirmed townies

[vivid eagle]

youre likely not winning anyways as solo in that kind of scenario

[half hawk]

you may if you had killed those townies

also did you forget arsonist exists? It is basically death in some scenarios but doesnt get a warning

[vivid eagle]

if you kill, you expose your existence and may get hung earlier. Or you dont and you eventually get hung. Youre likely not winning that as solo bers in either scenario anyways

[vivid eagle]

Arso trespasses

and can be seen by spies

[mellow compass]

with this change, if it has a baker teammate who waits a SINGULAR DAY to pop, the game becomes almost UNLOSABLE

[vivid eagle]

and they dont have consistant scaling compared to sc or wl. They can lose a night of progress if their doused targets dies. SC/WL gets 1 charge regardless of how their night goes

[tender glen]

That's just baker being busted

In a multiapoc game

[half hawk]

exposing your existence isnt that bad'

[mellow compass]

right, but without this change there's counterplay

[vivid eagle]

It is if youre killing power

[half hawk]

why would it be unlosable?

[tender glen]

"Just rb and kill the bers" isn't really counterplay

[vivid eagle]

bers is just bad as a role

evils need to be designed around townies. Not the other way around.

[half hawk]

only if you have like a trump card

[vivid eagle]

better to have a weak evil than a broken one

[half hawk]

arso hates getting exposed but sk doesnt mind it

[vivid eagle]

whats your point. I dont understand what point youre making

[vivid eagle]

But it still screws over SK

[mellow compass]

because no matter who dies, you're killing such a large amount of town that you wont be able to be voted most of the time
and if neither of you get voted, its a garunteed win when you auto kill the 2 breads

[vivid eagle]

NKs dont like revealing their existence because town will have a target in mind. Killpower potential makes you play the game completely different in different numbers

[half hawk]

famine can do something like this d4

its better to tranform early for famine to do this anyway

[mellow compass]

doesn't make the idea of adding this change ANY better

[vivid eagle]

All the apoc can be found through TI's in some way.

Bers this way can only be found through psy

• SC transforms by d8 at worst.

Having 1-3 days of ti info/hanging makes a world of difference

[mellow compass]

this change, could genuinely be reasonable, if it just made it so bers only gets charges on ATTEMPTED attacks

that way bers is encouraged to attack, but doesn't get punished by UO/Tav/TP

[vivid eagle]

honestly, bers might just need a rework

[half hawk]

Sc can only be found with sheriff or seer

[mellow compass]

and investigator later game

and by psy

and by tracker

and sometimes LO

[half hawk]

How can invest find sc?

Tracker and lo only works if their claims dont match up, which is a player issue and also applies to bers

[mellow compass]

sc will ALWAYS have no crime, so if death pops and someone is nc, they're sus

[half hawk]

So basically any non visiting role