#I just saw the Mayor rework. I have several issues with it

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lyric plinth
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  1. This does not fix the problem with Mayor in TT gamemodes being effectively a maj push by evils. TT Mayor just keeps majority to themselves. This is kind of a moot point since most (ATT feels quirky) TT gamemodes simply ban Mayor
  2. It does not fix the problem that Mayor doesn't want to reveal. In actuality, it exacerbates it, since you will lose the ability to protect yourself
  3. Only 3 votes is a nerf to the majority keeping potential it currently has
  4. It still doesnt compete with the Town Executives roles. In fact, I would argue this is a LOT weaker than MONARCH since only 3 votes is minimal compared to the +4 votes Mayor CAN get currently
  5. Campaign is completely useless. Considering Mayor wants to reveal at some point, you will, in the best of circumstances, have maybe 3 to 4 players campaigned... if and only if you reveal REALLY late AND all of those players are alive, and evil, will it be beneficial.
  6. The benefit of Campaign is either way too situational, or a flat out disadvantage. In set role decks, you have a much higher chance to Campaign a protective role or a role that can help you, like Psychic, compared to the maybe TWO evils that can harm you. Not only that, for Campaign to ACTUALLY work, you would need to campaign all coven members, since campaigning only one would simply mean that the coven swaps the book, and now you are screwed. This ability counters literally 3 roles. Doomsayer, Ritualist and Conjurer. Which I would still argue its bad, since those roles are MEANT to punish overconfident TPows.
  7. Campaign simply DELAYS your demise. For 1 day, you have SLIGHTLY HIGHER ODDS of surviving. Until you get guessed or conjed the following day.
trail sun
outer dew
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what even is the mayor rework

lyric plinth
cobalt cypress
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1: A role shouldn't be balanced around a single modifier. It should be balanced around overall gameplay.
2: They can reveal as soon as they want, their Campaing ability can help them to dos. Plus thats a playstyle issue of whiever plays Mayor, not Mayor jtself.
3: 3 votes is more than enough to keep majority as long as town didn't throw the match.
4: TExec have as always been better than TGov.
5: Its not, if used correctly and not randomly, you can guarantee your survival for 1 day and night.
6: If you campaing a TP or TI then thats your fault for thinking they are evil.
7: Again, if you didn't throw the game as town, campaing has a high chance to help you clutch. If you didn't play well before revealing then yes, it will be useless.

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Overall this suggestion is:

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A mix between: "Vote manip is op in TT"

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And: "I get punished for using abilities incorrectly, and I want there to be no punishment at all"

trim wave
# lyric plinth 1. This does not fix the problem with Mayor in TT gamemodes being effectively a ...
  1. TT is ass anyway, shit is nearly impossible to balance for
  2. why... is this a problem?? like bruh i don't wanna be targeted by 2/3 ck's bruh

no like really, this isn't an issue, hell i have done a play as mayor where someone said i was evil for a play, i reveal and got the evil. Only possible because i didn't scream "TP/LO ON ME" d1

  1. mayor was almost too strong in this capacity? espically with a trap on them
  2. monarch can backfire, knights can die because people want to protect other targets
    5-7) campagine is good for late game plays although i feel like this is a bit too weak, although "delays for 1 day" is just a fucking lie unless evils rushed all the tps and tk just have not been doing their job
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no really

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fucking

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how many roles does in tt hunt change again

austere spindle
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Like this comes with so many complications

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like what, you cant be voted by marshal anymore if u tap them as tt?

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I'd say discard the vote-based thing on campaign but let the target part be

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Also holy yap im not reading that

surreal crane
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Vote scaling was cool but problematic for TT based modes and not that much more useful outside of AA where town often doesn’t have majority

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This helps to combat the issue, is it enough? We don’t know until it’s actually tested

drifting elk
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mayor's real issue with revealing to have 3 votes is that it doesn't do anything

rich skiff
# lyric plinth

What does this rework even achieve, like yeah, you can fight back against evil maj but that is utterly useless if they have conj/rit/horseman/VM which in the late game isnt even that unlikely.....Mayor is still worse than Ret and Soc with this rework

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Is this the rework that is actually coming....? Because if so then, it really feels extremely poor

austere spindle
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I want this as the mayor rework

surreal crane
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I campaign 1, 8, 12 and 13

I get conj nuked

Only 14 and 15 are not campaigned 14 is confirmed TP and 15 is a TI claim

15 is Conj

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Is it flawless? Hell no but it works to get it out of TT jail

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Plus some seemingly minimal changes (Like Facade) end up being massive and great changes

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Or like how even though judge is still considered unhealthy removing an extra vote so it was only +1 instead of +2 brought it win rate down to the level of the other NP instead of far surpassesing them

rich skiff
rich skiff
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facade, was a great change

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you cant compare this to facade

surreal crane
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Well yeah facade was amazing but I saw people feel whelmed about it when it was initially revealed

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It’s more an example that it’s not always possible for us to determine how some changes will play out until we play with them

dense iris
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The problem with this rework is that it does Literally Nothing if town is winning and lynching scum

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If you’re reading scum players correctly, they should be dead, not tacked under an ability

surreal crane
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Mayor pretty much always has been a “town can’t lose majority if I’m alive” button

rich skiff
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and also, Soc is still better than Mayor lmao

rich skiff
surreal crane
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Not if the dep is campaigned at least for 1 day

rich skiff
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but wait, theres more! (SS and Judge join the frey with Court and Daybreak)

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anti-Mayor at its finest

surreal crane
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Like I don’t think this is perfect but mayor has 1 very specific job it always has and thus helps that more than current mayor

rich skiff
surreal crane
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Vote stacking rarely is useful for town

rich skiff
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indeed, thats why i wish campaign actually provided something

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or had some effect

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like immediate effect i mean

surreal crane
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I mean it does it’s just conditional, I think it’s still much better than current mayor though also because I just always thought mayor getting +1 vs +2 on reveal felt counter intuitive

rich skiff
surreal crane
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When town needs extra votes they need it in the moment not over time

rich skiff
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but something isnt always a good solution

rich skiff
surreal crane
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Plus it gives more room to expand mayor in general

rich skiff
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Pros can insta delete button on anyone

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and Marsh is Marsh

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+1 vote

surreal crane
rich skiff
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ik, but its still depressing

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ok

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even if we take that into account

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i am still going to say: SOC (not even a TPOW role) is stronger than Mayor

surreal crane
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I sorta agree sorta disagree

rich skiff
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it is

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it will get far for value

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than Mayor will

surreal crane
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I think mayor is stronger but way way more situational

rich skiff
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its extremely niche

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extremely niche

surreal crane
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As in mayors actual ability is more impactful just the times for said impact to come into effect sre rare

rich skiff
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id rather have a SOC slot on the list, than a MAYOR slot on the list

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(personally)

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SOC can confirm itself almost as easily as Mayor. the only thing working against SOC is that people can say its POI

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but if you take the example of would you rather have guaranteed SOC vs guaranteed MAYOR, then SOC is (nearly) just as easily confirmable as mayor

surreal crane
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Slightly less but I get your point

rich skiff
surreal crane
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It’s like how Vigi and Dep compare in confirmability

rich skiff
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would you rather 3 bullets or 1 bullet that is likely going to miss and you are probably going to get hung

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now if you connect, then you are conf for the rest of the game

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BUT

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you are also utterly useless

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wheareas VIGI connecting achieves the same effect plus you still have bullets

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*assuming its not secret killers which most modes arent

surreal crane
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Not my point in this instance I meant like

Vigi shots are not 100% confirmed due to Dusa, Secret killers, and a few other niche things

If a Dep shot actually goes off it’s 100% confirmed

I’m comparing the confirmability of them to mayor vs Soci

rich skiff
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yeah, id say thats fair

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its a little bit of a faulty comparison in that Mayor is always***** going to be able to reveal

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whereas dep isnt always going to be able to confirm itself

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*Daybreak is the only exception (which dep also suffers from)

surreal crane
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Fair but other than Tav and Soci no town role has 100% confirm buttons really outside Tpow as all the rest are conditional

rich skiff
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i dont quite get what you mean

surreal crane
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And Tav and Soci have evils that can fake as them (but Pois’s back hurts super hard)

rich skiff
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eh, Necro

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and PM (very situational ; only because of Barrier)

surreal crane
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Basically whst I mean is Soci and Tav have unique notifications that are very hard to replicate compared to other townies and you can always use them

rich skiff
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and DW (affter rework) (bc it can fake RB and UO)

surreal crane
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Dw too yeah

rich skiff
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yeah DW can

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so DW+POI

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essentially

rich skiff
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"pois back hurts super hard"

surreal crane
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They are easy to confirm by proxy (Audi could probably benefit from being able to rb without auditing tbh)

rich skiff
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lets make AUD stronger than it already is

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(Judge in the corner still crying bc its a one trick pony)

surreal crane
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It’s moreso because UO/RB are hard to fake and SS CAN fake Soci

rich skiff
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yeah

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SS can fake SOC

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(assuming NP can spawn on the list you are playing)

surreal crane
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Yeah

rich skiff
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Judge buff when ):

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it needs an alt night ability

surreal crane
# rich skiff Judge buff when ):

Judges ability is too strong when it works to get a big buff until it gets a minor rework (court is a bit too all or nothing even more than dep)

rich skiff
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i mean

surreal crane
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At least missing on dep still gives info

rich skiff
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it is strong sort of not really?

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its kinda like VM

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only good at the end

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Judge is absolutely useless in the early game tbh

surreal crane
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Yeah but said strength makes it too all or nothing so I’d like to see it’s power more evenly distributed

rich skiff
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make court a trib AT NIGHT

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LMAO

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imagine

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you just go into the night phase

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BOOM

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"A Judge has called Court"

surreal crane
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Judge objectively or more accurately numerically is balanced because it’s all or nothing 100 and 0 averaged out is 50

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It’s just polarizing

rich skiff
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by that logic, VM is totally a fair and balanced role

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it absolutely is not

surreal crane
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Numerically balanced = / = actual balance

rich skiff
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you mean =/= ?

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yeah

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ok

surreal crane
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It’s a weird data conundrum thing

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But back to mayor and TG as a whole tbh despite being the new kid Pacifist feels the most like what a TG should be power wise at least imo

rich skiff
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ig

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Monarch is fine as long as it would gain some sort of utility

surreal crane
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It’s risky but has huge impact if you can pilot it correctly Mon is getting there but misknighting is too detrimental for only having 2 knights

rich skiff
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yea

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if you could denounce people as mon, i feel like that would be cool

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(Denounce makes a player start each day with an X number of votes and makes abstains count as guilty towards them)

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X would equal 1/3rd of the total vote requirement for that day rounded down (but no less than 1)

surreal crane
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Maybe it just needs a bit more as semi permant defense is actually a really strong thing for a townie

rich skiff
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so

surreal crane
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But when you only have 2 knights a single mis-knight is way too high

rich skiff
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thats what i mean

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thats why i would want it to have Denounce

surreal crane
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Also considering almost every faction can eventually or in some way bypass the defense

rich skiff
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so that if you do misknight, its not just GGs

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you can Denounce so that you can be able to easily lynch a knight later (or any player for that matter)

surreal crane
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Which is counter intuitive because you would logically want basic defense early on (Coven might not know who you are,Bers only basic, SK not willing to jump yet) rather than later when most powerful attacks are unlocked and or have more accurate targeting

rich skiff
surreal crane
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Bers in BTOS got a change a bit ago instead of the first power up being attack every night it’s “you can’t attack N1, and your first power up increases attack from basic to powerful”

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Bers starts with a basic attack

rich skiff
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what in the nerf

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brother

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ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh man

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so its now

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Basic (0)

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Powerful (1)

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Rampage (2)

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War (3)

surreal crane
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Yep

rich skiff
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oh man

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i guess NKs get some mercy

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from Bers

surreal crane
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It’s more consistent with how power logic works and NKs need all the help they can get

rich skiff
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NKs need info/utility

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like SK is actually good now

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ARSO/WW/SHROUD still need help though

surreal crane
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Arso is pretty close to fine and in some games actually is better than SK it just needs a tiny bit more juice

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WW and Shroud need help bad though

rich skiff
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like i wish you gained more info when you doused people

surreal crane
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One is better in Chaos/TAA lists the other is better in set lists yet they are both worse than Arso and SK in both lists

rich skiff
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WW is very weak and Shroud is the epitome of just horrible

surreal crane
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Shroud has a few niche interactions to keep it afloat and isn’t useless in set lists but is still weak

rich skiff
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its still

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absolutely

surreal crane
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WW is very dangerous N2.

rich skiff
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horrible

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you cant beat

surreal crane
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It’s useless outside of N2

rich skiff
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a single NK

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as Shroud

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nor a single solo APOC

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as shroud

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that is just

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awful

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that is beyond horrid

surreal crane
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Set lists = rolelists that have 1 RN/NK slot only

rich skiff
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its still horrible

surreal crane
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Shroud is functional (not good) but functional in it because it doesn’t have to dance around as much

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It’s still bad

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Like really bad

rich skiff
surreal crane
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But it’s playable

rich skiff
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i would rather be solo CL than Shroud

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thats how BAD

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imo

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shroud is

surreal crane
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Like it goes from a 1/10 to a 3/10 it’s not good lol

rich skiff
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CL has basic attack and basic defense

surreal crane
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It’s just less shite

rich skiff
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and can become anything

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(any coven role)

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i promise you

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you are better of being solo CL than solo Shroud

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you even have detection immunity

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just like an NK

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LMAO

surreal crane
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I mean I agree with that again shroud is kept afloat via niche interactions

rich skiff
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goes to show how weak shroud is when literally a factional role is better than it

surreal crane
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Trapper, BG, Seer

rich skiff
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niche interactions dont justify that it is weaker than a factional role

surreal crane
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Again it’s really not good I agree on that

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It just can function even if 95% of the time it can’t

rich skiff
surreal crane
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WW is most dangerous N2 but the Cooldown for N3-N4 is so brutal that it loses a lot of value

rich skiff
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Witch finds you N2 and you can call your game over

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like, it is LITERALLY over

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N2 control - N4 control

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D5 you are voted out

surreal crane
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Arso also gets screwed by witch way too hard tbh

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If a witch forces you to self douse best you can do is draw

rich skiff
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yeah

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its not as bad tho

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bc you can incinerate the witch as a desperato

surreal crane
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If you wait a night to clean yourself off you can get controlled again

rich skiff
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if they control you early

surreal crane
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If you ignite and torch both of you

rich skiff
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no i mean if they control you early

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bc chances arre

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they arent gonna make you target yourself

surreal crane
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WW just loses if they get controlled early yeah

rich skiff
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(the first time they control you)

surreal crane
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Unless a wild TK kills the witch in time

rich skiff
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a wild vigilante has appeared!

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vigilante used bullet

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its super effective!

lyric plinth
surreal crane
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I mean fair enough but current mayor actually disincentivizes playing mayor “correctly”

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Because in the scenario you need extra votes (say 4v4 with a VM and Jester) you want as many as you can get then and now

trim wave
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but i do think the rework is weak

plush trench
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If you reveal early you’re just the same as old mayor which can’t be said for the current rework where you have one less vote unless you reveal early (iirc)

drifting elk
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mayor is a win harder role, in a tie the mayor will either die or the tps will die and then the mayor will die

dense iris
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Actually no

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Are you speaking about this mayor rework?

drifting elk
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being unable to target the mayor for a day/night doesn't change anything because you're still cutting down maj to the same amount the next night by killing someone else and then the mayor the next night

dense iris
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This mayor rework is gonna suck because it requires town to not be following you and lynching the people you think is scum

drifting elk
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like for example

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5v5, mayor reveals voting man is 7v5, hang an evil 7v4 voting maj and let's say there's a tp who can protect mayor alive, they die and it's 6v4, hang another evil and it's 6v3 and then mayor death = 3v3

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all it does is delay the game

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it's my issue with pros just putting someone on trial because it doesn't actually change the outcome of the game, you still will lose if the game is tied and you shouldn't need to pros if the town is winning

rich skiff
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So 4v4

After Pros, 4v3

After hanging an evil 4v2

drifting elk
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like I said I haven't played in a long time now

surreal crane
# drifting elk this is legit only if town is winning already

Mayor is a roadblock role what I mean is say you have a 4v4, a Mayor and lets say 3 TP's

Coven have to kill each TP before they can kill the mayor because as long as the mayor lives town maintains majority

If a TP manages to kill a coven member or saves even 1 kill by predicting coven will attack someone else Coven will lose due to mayor, where as in a situation with 4 townies with no extra votes coven can likely eventually brute force a win even considering 3 TP

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Like Mayor has a purpose but its nice its more of an obstacle than a role basically saying "You can't reach the traditional wincon until this role dies" Mayor also gains alot of power when town doesnt have raw majority but evils don't either

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a good example being say 2 coven a NA and a NE and then 4 town

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No faction has majority here and town can't get enough votes to get a kill, but Mayor can

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it's more just that the situations for mayor to work are limited and usually late game but because of how big a target the role imposes on itself you are unlikely to even reach the scenario even if it does occur

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This rework does help with that but if its enough needs to be tested