#Serial Killer Rework

389 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

wanton gulch
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Serial Killer (Neutral Killing)

Attack: Basic
Defense: Basic

Escape Fate (1,Passive)
If the town tries to execute you, you survive. Once this ability has saved you, you lose it at the end of the day.

Attack:
Choose to attack a player each Night, dealing a Basic Attack against them.
Using this ability will reset Bloodlust charges.
If you have bloodlust, you may deal a Powerful Attack to two players, or an Unstoppable Attack to one player.

Attributes:

  • For each night you do not get a kill, you will get a charge of Bloodlust. Grace Period night does not count for this. Bloodlust is capped to 1.
  • Once you have a charge of Bloodlust, you will be able to choose up to two players that night.

current Skinsuit SK goes to Shroud.

lime geode
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So if Town hangs you, you don't get hung?

wanton gulch
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Rampage is Werewolf's thing, I tried to remove Rampage from SK

rotund path
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how would this work if its the first hang in a tribunal? do they instantly get outed as SK or will they appear as dead untill the trib ends?

lime geode
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also LMAO you also call it Skinsuit SK

rose patio
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Problem with the passive ability is that it doesn't do much unless the game is almost over - you just get hung the next day

wanton gulch
young kite
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do you register as dead or alive

austere flint
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tol sorc escape fate
Oh my

wanton gulch
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alive, you will be put down as if u were innoed

lime geode
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IMO I don't think Escape Fate's all that good

rose patio
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No Zombul 😭

hollow flare
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I kinda don't like this
It forces town to waste a hang no matter what
And in certain modes like PJR that's straight up an autoloss

wanton gulch
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thats more of a side thing, main appeal is reworking bloodlust

lime geode
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the reworked bloodlust is fine, but I really don't like the Escape Fate gimmick

wanton gulch
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I kinda don't want SK to be a walmart Werewolf like it is in vanilla rn

young kite
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there needs not be a way to get someone else to be also safe from lynches

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so that sk doesnt get insta outed

hollow flare
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rework bloodlust is cool but surviving exe just screws over town unfairly

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there's nothing they can really do

ripe lichen
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So Changeling... Idk how to feel about it they just get hung next day

young kite
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town is basically cooked 3v2 if one is sk

austere flint
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Escape Fate ~solely just makes you win at F3, which itself is fine but it’s not really helpful before then
Rework bloodlust is probably on the weaker end (wasting a kill for a strongman isn’t super worth it and that’s the main value since the double kill is just picking up the missed kill)
Hmmmm

rose patio
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On the contrary I like the bloodlust, SK doesn't actually lose kills alternate 2 kills vs no kills

young kite
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here is my reworked escape fate

rose patio
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Additionally you get the bonus of having powerful attack if you wait

young kite
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if you get exed, you can choose who to possess that night, but would lose if you were the only evil

lime geode
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Escape Fate (1,Passive)
If the town tries to execute you, you survive unless if everyone guiltied and/or abstained on you.

wanton gulch
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um

austere flint
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Not that reworked bloodlust is bad per se it’s just
Not often worth it (the unstoppable should also probably hit through BG/Traps if it doesn’t)

wanton gulch
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you dont get exed

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if everyone abstains

wanton gulch
austere flint
austere flint
lime geode
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Could SK get a passive framing ability instead?

austere flint
# austere flint This is laughably weak tbc

Esp in modes with no secret killers since everyone knows not to press the innocent button
But even outside of that, it very quickly loses the utility it actually provides to the sk which is winning F3

lime geode
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if possible

lime geode
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how's that?

young kite
austere flint
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Still fairly weak unless you nab a like, guilty by 1 singular vote in which case you can make it impossible to vote you out ever

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So
Prolly doesn’t fix it

lime geode
hollow flare
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I don't feel like surviving hangs works in ToS2 ngl

young kite
lime geode
austere flint
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I’m fairly certain this evaluates as on the weaker side it just looks scawy because of escaping the vote

lime geode
young kite
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i mean that if the game ends with sk dead the sks ability wouldnt continue the game

lime geode
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it just seems very toxic

austere flint
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I mean I know it is, I played with tol sorc
Unholy sk arso fusion that had that and it was still the worst NK by a good margin

lime geode
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lol

young kite
lime geode
young kite
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i mean why shouldnt sk be able to possess guilty voters

lime geode
young kite
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anyway this can work

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cuz getting an unanimous guilty is very rare

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but it narrows down the sk

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too much

runic timber
brittle brook
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Imo this is way worse than current SK but it is so much better than current shroud which overall makes it good. I don't think it's perfect, but I do think it's a lot better than what we currently have

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Definitely not the biggest fan of escape fate because town is kind of just incentivized not to hang you and if they do it just gives a massive lead to coven

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I like the bloodlust rework

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I think escape Fate would just be problematic, but I think the rampage change on its own is a good idea

young kite
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escape fate sucks

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all it does is lose majority for town 1 day earlier

brittle brook
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Yep

nova crag
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The bloodlust change is good, but
Escape Fate doesn't seem fun. If you get hanged super early, you're just gonna get hanged the next day. If you save it for the endgame you just instawin.

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Also using it is out of the SK's control, which isn't engaging

austere flint
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Escape Fate is…
Is honestly a prime example of why when I’m designing forum mafia games I make NK wincon just “Survive to Final 4/Final 3”

That’s all it really wants to be. That’s what it contributes to the SK win condition. And you know what, it does in fact do that job well. But because we can’t apply that to every NK we kind of just get the friction caused by it being a passive that works like this

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I don’t really care that making use of it isn’t super in your control because it’s a purely defensive passive ability. I think my main issue with it is that it kinda makes you get stuck in a lost game for an extra day where you kind of just kill someone and ratchet the swing of the game for no reason

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ToL sorc did also just fold and die if they used it before they could secure the win but they’d just die to Prince and not kill that night (also it was an activated ability there so lmao)

young kite
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what did tol soc do

austere flint
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During the day, put bombs in players. At night, kill a player, or detonate all of your bombs

young kite
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so an arso sk fusion?

austere flint
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Escape Fate got added as a bandage to the fact that it couldn’t blow up the king with the bombs

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Yes

young kite
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he could kill the king though right?

austere flint
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While he could

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If the King died, the court had to elect a new one

young kite
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ohh

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yeah that aint solving the problem

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couldnt he make it a 1v1 with just the king then?

austere flint
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So in order to arso properly, she had to either get a bombed person as an elected King, or… find another way to skip the 1v1

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King has a doublevote

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So she lost that 1v1

young kite
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she?who are you talking about

austere flint
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Sorc is a woman (:

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Anyway

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Escape Fate got added instead of just letting her blow up the King lmao

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It did basically nothing except allow her to win that 1v1

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Still the worst NK

austere flint
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Anyway as to why it’s relevant uh
It’s mostly just to show the ability doesn’t do much :p
I think this change is like, Fine, I’m just not sure how much it does to make SK strong

grim roost
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Here's the thing

This is better than vanilla SK by a long shot, but "Escape Fate" just outs you as a known SK anyway. You either get hung tomorrow or town is ignoring the known evil

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Modded SK is way better

green tide
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Po should go to werewolf

pliant jewel
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NKs need info and utility

green tide
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This passive while interesting isn't really balanced around a tos environment

wanton gulch
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this isnt exactly po but

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i get it

icy marsh
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A single DA protection isn't all that powerful since you're just going to be hanged the next day.

It's going to lead to a lot of frustrating moments since town has already "solved" the identity of the SK but they're still in the game. The SK has to stay in the game where they are 100% outted, and are most likely not going to win anyways.

Escape fate feels like it benefits evil more than it benefits the SK itself

green tide
austere flint
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Not really

green tide
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werewolf has to wait then all you get is a rampage and to kill other NKs Jackal

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"oh but werewolf would attack night 5 but this SK wouldn't!!!"

icy marsh
lime geode
green tide
icy marsh
tight wyvern
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Lynch Immunity Feels Like An Outlier Gimmick, And Bloodlust Is Going To Cause A LOT Of Draws When WW/Arso Is In Play

austere flint
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Its """""powercreep"""" in a loose sense of the word but the power increase is

icy marsh
austere flint
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Not really relevant

green tide
green tide
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or an unstoppable rampage

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that is power creep

austere flint
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unstoppable singular kill*

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or two attacks from a lost attack

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so

green tide
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this still outclasses werewolf

austere flint
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unstoppable single kill still isn't actually worth it

green tide
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werewolf loses two nights

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yes but the double kill is very useful

austere flint
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not really since you squander a kill to do it

green tide
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Werewolf literally doesn’t have the option

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regardless

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only until night 5 on

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which is enough to lose potentially two kills anyways

austere flint
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consider
I don't care
Werewolf can (and almost certainly will) change later. Refusing to change things to prevent this (negligible!) powercreep is doing a disservice methinks

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my thoughts on this rework are that "im not actually sure this is enough"

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but its a concept that I think can be iterated on To Be Good

austere flint
brittle swallow
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And also bloodlust activates if your kill fails in any way

gritty wagon
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I don't think escape fate is needed for this to be an alright rework

green tide
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Escape fate should be circumstantial

sand prairie
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I dislike the concept of Escape fate because

A. Town has limited resources to hang evils and it should be something they can somewhat rely on

B. Jailor already is stronger than Marshal and Prosecutor, if Escape Fate worked for that then Jailor becomes far and away stronger than both of them in an SK game

additionally i kinda like the flavor of caution on SK like it certinely has far more room to grow and I think the bloodlust like ability is interesting if somewhat flawed (An unstoppable attack can't actually peirce BG, Crus, or Trapper currently and Trapper and BG respectively would just kill the SK for trying) so it feel kinda pointless in a majority of games

I do think there is potential here however even if its a bit scuffed right now, it needs more fine tuning

pliant jewel
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I think Crus doesn't stop Unstoppable
If it is a direct port of Handler

sand prairie
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Maybe change bloodlust to something like "With bloodlust you can do one of two things"

Spree Kill - Deal a Basic attack to 2 separate players

Cautious Kill - Evade UO, Protective Abilities (think old illusionist), and Deal an Unstoppable Attack

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If you want SK to keep the identity as "Able to bypass TP"

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I think a split powerful attack is way to strong considering you would just always use it over unstoppable except in niche condidtions

sand prairie
pliant jewel
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I'm not sure, but I don't think it does

sand prairie
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Odd but alrught

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Even still I think this has potential but escape fate is just way to strong to be a passive ability

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Also because as said it just kinda screws over the "weaker" TE roles

(Calling Marshal or Prosecuter weak always feels weird but they are weaker than Jailor)

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Personally though Id be fine if the bloodlust system overall functioned somewhat like this with Escape Fate being replaced with a more informative or deceptive ablity thats less explosive but still useful

fair frost
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Escape fate doesnt do much ngl

wanton gulch
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idk why bg and trapper works like that

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hey that was not me

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that interaction existed before we became devs

pliant jewel
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You could change it Yar

wanton gulch
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yes, im not opposed to it

feral phoenixBOT
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reminds me of my ww overhaul that i posted a while back

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while charging the ww appeared town and if they hit defense they would automatically charge

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curtis didnt like it iirc

brittle swallow
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I think it’d be bad to start adding a whole cast of lynch immunity roles to the game

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I think it can work on SK to make it a much more aggressive role who will struggle to keep hidden but also needs to be caught early on for people to stand a chance

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If there’s an SK and you don’t make it priority to take them out it may well be too late by the time you come round to it

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Compared to other NKs (specifically Arso and in this case shroud) who have other tools to evade detection and don’t need to brute force it as much

sand prairie
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If SK where to keep this id rather it be turned into like a 1 time use super immunity aka get invincible def, and escape hangs for the night and following day, then like current cautious allow it to be used in jail, it still has the potentially game changing utility and can actually counter Jailor, Veteran, Conjuerer, and Ritualist while still keeping the Lynch immunity but making it a much more skill based thing

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rather than "haha you need to hang me twice"

limber coral
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Sounds like PO from BOTC

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But just curious would NK be considered to be able to reveal ppl like pmer or would that be too strong

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I feel SK could have a stalk ability that reveals the player and have Wilding scent(Knows where target visited and knows who visited target) but they cant kill for the night

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More like a late game kill to surprise ppl

brittle swallow
sharp eagle
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and give sks wins they shouldn't get

sharp eagle
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too much KP but i like where your head is at

wanton gulch
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3 kills in one night would be too much

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this isnt exactly po

sharp eagle
wanton gulch
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bloodlust rework seems to have received well

sharp eagle
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"if you fail to kill you get too attack twice"

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but that stall is awful 😭

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🥀

brittle swallow
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Considering here it doesn’t have much stealth like Arso or Shroud would

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Werewolf is another story

young kite
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it doesnt really matter how much you of a threat you are treating as

brittle swallow
young kite
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whether you hang first or not it would still waste an exe and bring evils 1 step closer to majority

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infact hanging them early can derail town from hanging coven

green tide
brittle swallow
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Po is specifically designed for bad moon rising

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I mean I can agree it’s probably the most volatile demon there but I’d not act like it doesn’t belong there or doesn’t work

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High KPN is just an issue in tos because it has majority & the killpower can stack a bit too much when you have several factions that are all killing

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And also BMR has a lot of methods of preventing death as well, more than TOS

green tide
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po is annoying lol

copper fossil
runic timber
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Every time I play bmr the st decides to put zombuul in, I want to be free of this pain.

agile wraith
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Hear me out:
Escape fate (2, Trial Phase)

  • During the day, while you are on trial, you may choose to activate this ability.
  • If you activate Escape fate, and you are voted innocent, nothing will happen and you will lose a charge.
  • If you activate Escape fate and you are voted guilty, you will lose all remaining charges and be let down as if you were voted innocent.
  • After being let down town’s trials continue as normal, however you cannot be voted again that day
  • You cannot be jailed or visited and will be illuminated and gain bloodlust using ability successfully
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I like the idea of escape fate but it either needs more mind games or to be earned imo

brittle brook
brittle swallow
brittle brook
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What is po?

young kite
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po is a demon from botc . IF they choose attack nobody a night, they can kill 3 people the next night

lime geode
brittle brook
lime geode
fresh orchid
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the blood lust makes sk not walmart ww

fresh orchid
limber coral
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I seem to be the only one who actually likes escape fate, but I feel like the issue with it is that it's SUCH a loss to town. Maybe make it so SK doesn't actually consume town's hang and instead just can't be hung that day after it's already been attempted

brittle brook
ruby crest
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escape fate doesn't sound like it will work

green tide
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In the context of spawning in something like Jackal lists nuh uh

distant wharf
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I am really out of the loop here, but what's wrong with current SK?

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Disregarding my question for a second here, but from what I can see with 'Escape Fate' to me it can only work under strict conditions which include;

  1. It can only be done once per game, likely something a new NP can grant to any player.
  2. It doesn't consume the single lynch town gets for the day.
  3. It's not obvious who can 'Escape Fate'. If only SK had this, town will just know instantly that player is an SK.
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Giving SK 'Escape Fate' means you have to make SK unique. In set rolelists you can limit how many SK spawn in a game, but in more randomized rolelists like All Any that can get really frustrating when multiple spawn.

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Oh cool, I'm now a horseman of the apocalypse

dense quartz
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Evil vote manip?

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I meant this

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Not Skinsuit SK

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Skinsuit SK has a whole other can of worms

brittle brook
distant wharf
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The only things I can think of from the top of my head why people don't like current SK is that it has a high skill ceiling and it's confusing to new players.

brittle brook
dense quartz
distant wharf
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I'd have no problem with Shroud becoming current SK, but this SK rework is not the way to go imho

dense quartz
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Even if you make a jump obvious, you don’t make your new identity obvious but eh

distant wharf
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No role should have an innate ability to cheat death from a lynch

brittle brook
distant wharf
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Like I said before, the most I'd ever want such mechanic to exist was if another role could grant it to someone else once per game, so you do have to think about who you should protect.

brittle brook
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The only reason I gave it an equal is because I'm a big fan of the rampage and I think it's pretty clear that escape Fate isn't stay

distant wharf
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I know "vote manipulation" is bad but in concept it would be unique for the game, assuming it's fair

dense quartz
distant wharf
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If it was "this person avoids getting lynched so day ends instantly" yeah that would suck

dense quartz
dense quartz
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Making SK BoTC Pois would be better maybe but arbitrary info doesn’t work as well in ToS

brittle brook
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It's unqiue

distant wharf
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I've had an idea I don't think I've ever shared for a NP that can force someone to be pardoned and become vote immune for the day, but the town still gets to vote up someone else.
Emphasis on NP because it's a one-time ability on a unique role.

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The one thing I do not like about rampage is you can kill your own teammates

brittle brook
distant wharf
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If rampage got the Jinx treatment and just refused to attack allies, it would not suck

dense quartz
brittle brook
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It can be problematic when you have like multiple werewolves though

distant wharf
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You kinda can't if you're NK

brittle brook
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Because they constantly have it

brittle brook
distant wharf
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Even in vanilla where compliance doesn't exist you have almost no way of communicating with each other without getting sussed

dense quartz
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Wait so do you guys think 2 jumps is too much for SK?

brittle brook
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I haven't played that that much

distant wharf
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Me personally I haven't played modded enough to be sure

brittle brook
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And I personally haven't had any issues

dense quartz
brittle brook
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This is really inconvenient

distant wharf
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I'm pretty sure SK has two jumps to compensate for getting a shitty body on the first jump

brittle brook
distant wharf
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Although I wouldn't oppose making the 2nd jump a Basic Attack. Arbitrary, but less "cheap"

brittle brook
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In case of like jumping into a coven

dense quartz
dense quartz
distant wharf
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or getting a bad tpow like Coroner

brittle brook
icy marsh
brittle brook
distant wharf
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That's the point. It gives you some leeway, but you don't get two free powerful attacks

dense quartz
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What if SK had 1 jump, and jumping only works on Town, and if you fail a jump you get it returned next night?

brittle brook
distant wharf
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The problem is some town roles are just bad to jump into

icy marsh
distant wharf
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"hidden" tpow

brittle brook
icy marsh
brittle brook
dense quartz
icy marsh
brittle brook
dense quartz
brittle brook
brittle brook
dense quartz
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Hmm true

brittle brook
# brittle brook Uh

You know that's a very good point. I don't really have any comeback at all

dense quartz
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What other deception utilities can we attach to NKs?

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I was thinking of droison but might suck with multiball

young kite
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why would droison be bad in multiball

dense quartz
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But ToS was not meant for arbitrary info

young kite
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was mass hysteria inspired by vortox?

dense quartz
icy marsh
dense quartz
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Playing as NK in a Vortox game might not be fun

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Luckily no one suffers from it

young kite
young kite
icy marsh
dense quartz
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Might

icy marsh
young kite
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i mean if you are the one introducing mass hysteria its fine

dense quartz
dense quartz
young kite
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i wasnt sayingmass hysteria is good, just that multiball wasnt its problem

icy marsh
young kite
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and in the context of giving nk abilities

dense quartz
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Hmm

young kite
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problem with mass hysteria is that its too loud

icy marsh
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Mass hysteria is just shit for multiball

young kite
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it doesnt actually decieve anyone if there were more than 2 ti

icy marsh
young kite
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it only works in botc because you dont share your info to everyone the first days'

young kite
dense quartz
icy marsh
dense quartz
young kite
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thats not mass

icy marsh
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Mass being global will always be loud

dense quartz
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But eh

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Announcer 🔥

young kite
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dwer is enchanter but more varied

dense quartz
brittle swallow
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The reason Vortox works is because SNV is a script entirely based around information and Vortox is a consistent threat rather than a 1 night thing

young kite
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even if mass hysteria was permanent here it would still be bad

young kite
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even though it basically nullfys vortoxs main gimmick

brittle swallow
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Unless you're trying to meta

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It's purely an anti meta tool because otherwise the meta was "don't nominate and we see if TC/FG get a yes"

brittle swallow
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Characters with win conditions in botc are not supposed to win often because of that the win/loss condition is there to make the other team fear a certain action

young kite
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hmm i thought the win condition is there so that town isnt passive and skip past executions

young kite
brittle swallow
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Which means there's more time for pit hag / cerenovus / general misinfo to spread, for Vigor to kill a minion & poison them, etc

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And they have to get at least 1 night of legit seeming info

young kite
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hmm makes sense

young kite
brittle swallow
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The Goblin doesn't exist to fool town into executing them like a Boomdandy (jester), you publicly broadcast that you're the Goblin

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But it means any evil player can claim goblin, including the Demon, and that execution becomes a risk good doesn't want to take unless they're certain the person claiming it is not the Goblin

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Leviathan's 5 day thing is obviously just so evil can win if good don't execute them as usual, but the 2 execution thing exists once again to disuade executions from occuring, because otherwise good would have 5 executions and not much the evil team can do about it

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Compare that to

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Hex Master

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Who exists to win and nothing else

young kite
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hmm you seem like you have played this a lot

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where do you play

brittle swallow
brittle swallow
young kite
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irl or online

brittle swallow
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Online, I don't own it yet

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I don't really get to play it that often tho but I think the game just has a lot of really smart design going on which is why I look into it a lot

young kite
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would you like to join our server

brittle swallow
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which one

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It's not tcc right

young kite
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brokens server

brittle swallow
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Ah

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Yeah why not

young kite
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whats tcc

brittle swallow
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Bad server 😭

young kite
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why? bad st/players?

brittle swallow
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as to why

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LOL

young kite
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just a bad history then

brittle swallow
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Yeaaaa

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That server is basically the reason why I realised u really need a good group to be able to enjoy botc

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Because like you're stuck with the players for at least 1-2 hours

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If not multiple days in multiday format

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Which is part of why TOS can actually survive as a SDG you play with randoms online, it has short games

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I mean there is the online app which has random lobbies and honestly has quite a few cool people but idk I still don't enjoy it there either

young kite
brittle swallow
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15 day teams game

young kite
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this was in tos1 where they hanged a vamp every 2 days to ensure everybody wins

brittle swallow
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I remember that 😭

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it was so bad bc it was like, it felt really terrible to just kill them and only your team wins when technically you can make them win as well

brittle brook
young kite
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what

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you are so evil

dense quartz
brittle brook
dense quartz