Apocalypse (Faction)

[gray gull]

The Apocalypse faction is an evil faction with the following roles:

Berserker, War

Soul Collector / Warlock, Death

Baker, Famine

Plaguebearer, Pestilence

Apocalypse are solo but only spawn together if the Four Horsemen modifier is active I think idk maybe it's different in modded I don't remember and cba finding out rn

The Apocalypse faction all centre around transforming into stronger roles.

What are your thoughts on the faction?

• Are the roles in it balanced and/or fun to play with?
• Do you think they work better solo or as a team?
• Do you have any experiences or stories relating to Apocalypse roles or lists to share?

<@&1428003109862510732>

fack u 3 posts in 1 day this is insanity rn

I have decided to post this on a whim bc the ATT threat shows actually we just wanna talk about apocalypse LOL

[visual pewter]

5 NKs in a faction

Though I don't know how to make them an actual faction

[verbal nimbus]

You would have to completely redesign everything

[cobalt anchor]

thank god I was on dnd for the first 2 pings lol

[scarlet moat]

I don't really get the point of the 4 Horsemen Modifier cause like, the only list that matters in is All Any which... has it by default

[proven elk]

stealing two NKs from tos 1 and throwing them into a faction together with some other new friends

like... yeah its gonna have issues as a faction

[scarlet moat]

anyway personally I think apocs are fun to play as, but not fun to play against

when they are a faction*

[magic pumice]

three discussions???

[scarlet moat]

I've heard many bad things about solo apoc

[distant vapor]

They work better in Pandora than pure apoc ngl

I wish we had more 3 Coven 1 Apoc Pandora lists

They don't really have any synergy, what is a PB + SC gonna do

[magic pumice]

Solo apoc are what the game is designed around

mulitple apoc are just multiple NKs without defense and sheriff can find them

[visual pewter]

Main problems with each acolyte

PB- Claimbag utility that is inconsistent af for transforming
Baker- Faster death in a faction, and a JOAT role. Inconsistent transformation when solo
Sc- allows visiting roles to be confirmed not death, and the framing utility is not incentivized to be used on actual targets
WL- Death is too punishing when you hang the "wrong" evil
Berserker- The faction's only way to eliminate players, and the "powering up through kills" mechanic incentivizes going for low priority targets

[magic pumice]

My response to the death take: evils winning? Impossible!

[magic pumice]

I made a read on death once as mayor but town did not listen to me

at all

[visual pewter]

It's not that evils won, it's that it turns all of the non-death faction members into "jesters"

[distant vapor]

I mean that's SDG for ya

Knowing the truth doesn't matter if you can't convince people

[magic pumice]

you have the entire game to sort through that

if evils hid their win con role well then they deserve the win

[distant vapor]

It's still hard to figure exactly which evil is which

Doom literally only guesses factions for evils

[magic pumice]

that's why you kill them before death appears

[distant vapor]

Because otherwise it's impossible

[magic pumice]

in a lobby where there can be a full town of mechanically confirmed players, I think that's more than reasonable counterplay

[visual pewter]

That's TOS being badly designed

[distant vapor]

Town isn't gonna all be mecha conf d2 sob

[visual pewter]

You don't fight bad mechanics with more bad mechanics

[magic pumice]

Me when the dep shoots correctly after being roleblocked by the tav with a spy on them and the lookout confirms them both and the tg and te reveal

[distant vapor]

Ok now have that happen every game

[magic pumice]

then you have the conf socialite slot that's unccd

that alone is like 7 players confirmed?

[visual pewter]

Again, tos being shittly designed

[distant vapor]

Claim Socialite then

[magic pumice]

"1f1"

ccing socialite is pretty powerful

tbf

[distant vapor]

I won as Death by doing this

[verbal nimbus]

Then they will ask if anyone has hit your UOs and hang you if no one did

[magic pumice]

I can't adjust my day 2 scenario where this is the case in gp

[visual pewter]

Just have a TT soc, simple as

[magic pumice]

make it day 3 then

TP: "That's fake, I was on X"

also evils: claiming roles that did nothing the entire game

because how are you going to fake revealed deputy or veteran

[distant vapor]

Regardless the entire town getting conf d2 is unrealistic

[magic pumice]

or a barrier message (put your hand down dreamweaver)

[distant vapor]

Baker

[visual pewter]

Deputy being a day kill and SecK not being basekit moment

[magic pumice]

The plaguebearer has transformed into Pestilence!

[distant vapor]

Barriering your own Bers attack as Baker was a pretty popular play

[verbal nimbus]

In the context of this thread it doesn't have to be D2 since Apoc pop later anyways
And by then it can be all too easy to just kill the unconfirmeds and get Apoc

[magic pumice]

I have never seen it

[visual pewter]

But you're slowing down backup death

[magic pumice]

you're sacking utility just to hide

also

[distant vapor]

Not really ? You still give bread

[magic pumice]

evils who can do both are much stronger

[distant vapor]

That's the point of utility ?

[magic pumice]

for obvious reasons

[visual pewter]

War is backup death in most games

[onyx dust]

Smh Modded doesn't have Four Horsemen

[distant vapor]

I never see War transform

Like, ever

I can't recall the last time I did

[magic pumice]

It has won by maj in many games for me

[visual pewter]

Because it's the berserker's fate to be hanged d2 so that we can sleep in ATT

[magic pumice]

usually it's because town sits down and gets sheeped by me

[distant vapor]

TRUE

[magic pumice]

the only roles that surivive the long run are TI claims

It's actually kinda sad

[distant vapor]

Famine is literally faster than War

That's actually kinda

Sad

[magic pumice]

We don't talk about famine

biggest problem role right now

[visual pewter]

Famine...was obviously not meant to be a factional role

[sweet marsh]

I like mystic’s Apoc faction idea

[magic pumice]

coven 2

but even more confusing

[sweet marsh]

kinda

yea

[distant vapor]

Famine gets disproportionally (is that even a word) stronger with teammates

[magic pumice]

I think if apoc worked like pandora where you had one win con role and a group of supporting roles it could work

[sweet marsh]

isn’t that mystic’s idea

[magic pumice]

and then you just had a mafioso style promotion system

[magic pumice]

the roles themselves were not great I'm going to be real

and some of the changes didn't make sense

[sweet marsh]

oh

[distant vapor]

3 COVEN 1 APOC PANDORA RAAAH

[magic pumice]

temp kinda got closer to a neat apoc idea where the supporting roles could also transform themselves

[magic pumice]

yeah

lol

it basically means it only works if apoc has to be solo

[distant vapor]

I'm gonna make a Pandora Ranked list atp

[magic pumice]

which means in aa it should be one apoc

[distant vapor]

Why do we not have a normal Pandora list

[magic pumice]

that already existed

[distant vapor]

I forgor

[magic pumice]

but being called ranked made little kids not want to vote it

and gun for wandering souls

[distant vapor]

I'm gonna find a fancy name then

[visual pewter]

Wasn't it just coven ranked?

[worldly crater]

:3

[gray gull]

It got changed to secret sorcerers or smth

[distant vapor]

Yeah but that wasn't Pandora ranked

[gray gull]

I mean secret sorcerers was an original list

unrleated to coven ranked

[magic pumice]

Imma be real

[distant vapor]

Why can't we play Pandora without fancy stuff like TT or Jackal or WS (ew)

[magic pumice]

the playerbase for this game isn't really into sdgs

[sweet marsh]

Add TAA Ranked mode

[distant vapor]

Sob

[visual pewter]

It was already "tainted" with the idea that it was ranked so it just died

[magic pumice]

I played it and got stomped as coven

just for jailor existing

[distant vapor]

Wasn't it 5v10

[magic pumice]

yeah

jailor is overpowered

[gloomy knot]

Apocalypse dont need a modifier 😔

[distant vapor]

Jailor is OP because list are usually 6v9 yeah

[visual pewter]

And that was before the tpow split I think

[visual pewter]

Jailor is OP ||because list are usually 6v9 yeah||

[young steppe]

i like playing vs apoc

[magic pumice]

I love being the cause of 4/6 of the evil deaths

[young steppe]

anmd playing as apoc

imo its my fav faction

just the killing power of apoc sucks

[distant vapor]

But Jailor is kinda too emblematic to significantly nerf

[visual pewter]

It's overpowered in any list

[magic pumice]

i.e. "I'm a tos player and don't like change"

[distant vapor]

You can remove an exe I guess

[distant vapor]

Well yeah but people will complain

You can't ignore that

[visual pewter]

Jailor just needs to be 1 exe

Simple as

[sweet marsh]

you could at least change it in BTOS2

BTOS2 players usually don’t really care

I think

[distant vapor]

Ehh

[magic pumice]

I'm just kinda burnt out from trying to rally a more laid back side to town of salem

[distant vapor]

I mean they could try and see

[visual pewter]

Wdym by laid back? Like lowering the power level of roles?

[magic pumice]

it was the same thing with town of us where I made lobbies the were "balanced" but people kept asking "why is X off" or "why is this blatantly unfun and overpowered mechanic off, turned down, or nerfed?" because that's what they were used to in other lobbies

[distant vapor]

I mean

Some people want to have fun rather than a fully balanced but boring experience

I feel like that should be valid too

[young steppe]

if it's a bad change then people will complain, if not then it's mainly some vanilla players that will

thats why theres more changes in btos2 than vanilla tos

tos2

[magic pumice]

Not just that, but also why are we not going back to more town v coven stuff

[distant vapor]

True

[young steppe]

vanilla players will complain about everything

that changes nearly

unless its REALLY good

[magic pumice]

JR and CTT are two of the best modes because they are coven centered

[young steppe]

nerfing jailor for vanilla is almost impossible

without backlash

[distant vapor]

Jailor would feel lame to play if it had a single exe

It would be balanced sure, but it would feel forever bad

[magic pumice]

You literally spend an entire night socializing with people 🥀

[visual pewter]

You're getting a kill?

And you're not a pligrm after you exe

You're still tav+ soc+

[sweet marsh]

Fresh’s idea is probably the best

[magic pumice]

You are tav+, create an UO

[sweet marsh]

where evils can counterattack

[magic pumice]

ah yes, fresh's idea

[distant vapor]

There's no worse feeling than being out of exes and having to let an evil go

[visual pewter]

Fresh's idea is just hangman

But with a different coat of paint

[magic pumice]

do they know?

tbf it was probably a separate idea from the one we talked about and was purely a coincidence

[visual pewter]

Wdym

[magic pumice]

so like

[distant vapor]

Anyway

[magic pumice]

apoc

is dumb

L

[distant vapor]

We need Jailor discussion lmao

[magic pumice]

10/10 criticism i know

I solved all problems with apoc

[visual pewter]

That's going to be fun to watch and discuss

[sweet marsh]

Make jailor a teams exclusive role so people play Teams

[magic pumice]

can we let teams die please

anyways

I had my own concept for an apoc overhaul in ToS:E

this is relevant I promise

First I need to see mystic's

[sweet marsh]

what was ur overhaul

[magic pumice]

I kinda summarized it already

but it's designed similar to mafia

[sweet marsh]

oh

[magic pumice]

where you have one "power" role which kills and eventually transforms

and a bunch of supporting roles

[sweet marsh]

can you determine who gets promoted next or is it a pre-determined order

[magic pumice]

I remember temp's was similar where it had a ridiculous amount of win con cases

[stray marten]

I remember trying to find a way to expand and rework the apoc faction with one of the 5 horsemen and some of the 7 deadly sins

[sweet marsh]

Lust

[magic pumice]

Temps Idea
acolytes = power roles that transformed
herald = secondary roles that transformed after acoltyes if they died I think?
utility = essentially informed NPs which lost if all non-utility teammates were dead.

[magic pumice]

Enny's Idea
acolyte - mafioso sidegrades/timer demons that eventually transformed
common - utility roles that can swap roles with the acolyte at any time, even upon death

[signal silo]

town shouldn't be notified whether it was SC or WL that transformed into Death

[magic pumice]

I mean, it's pretty balanced

just add visit deception and it shouldn't be that bad

I think at least knowing how information could have been altered at that state in the game is fine

the visit thing is just kind of a quirk

[signal silo]

like sc appearing to visit?

[magic pumice]

I mean in general

tracker gets fooled by false positives and false negatives

[open laurel]

Sucks as a faction
Sucks as soloist

I feel like you either need to buff em so they can work as soloists, or add more roles to the apoc faction and make the acolytes APow

[stray marten]

I like the idea of Apow with side faction backing them up. Still with the idea that when they transform, shit hits the fan

[nocturne crypt]

The issue is that what you're saying is mostly just Pandora with extra steps

I feel like the biggest thing that should be tried for apoc is PB buff

[stray marten]

Oh yes I agree

I just like the idea of deadly sins

It just fits

[visual pewter]

Famine needs a rework, death (but faster) isn't a good niche

[supple hamlet]

famine needs a rework, in solo you just get voted out after nuking
pestilence/pb is just info which...yes, is fun to play with but i wish you could either choose when to transform (because sometimes if you become pest, youre instantly outed OR town keeps you alive just cuz ur untransformed and therefore harmless) or just have a better utility as pest/dont get announcement of transforming until first kill
SC when bersless (what the fuck)
technically, d3 warlock is possible, no?

[tiny crater]

you can only kill 3 people?

[magic pumice]

You also get information from jail

Someone faking tracker tried to frame me

because I claimed to visit the dead player

[young steppe]

yes

PB is just

it's meant to be an info gatherer/info stopper once they turn

but it just becomes another killing power

unlike every other apoc which is a nuke

even war is better cus they're consistently a killing power and get to rampage + 2 kills when they transform

[magic pumice]

Ngl I almost wonder what att would be like with no baker

you have berserker, pb and a death acolyte

[young steppe]

ehhh

probably death push

[nocturne crypt]

being a killing acolyte isn't bad but you need to be faster. PB was initially designed in a balance place where it would be alone and could complete his little minigame in relative peace, you can't do that when you're a part of the main threat, it needs to be a little faster.

[magic pumice]

yeah that’s the idea

[young steppe]

PB gets 1 kill per night

[magic pumice]

do you rush early game or go for death

[young steppe]

it's not as much as a threat if bers is dead

[magic pumice]

bers/pest comps work

or you can play the long game for death

[magic pumice]

The pb could have been shroud fr now it’s the pb can be death which would give a possibility to lose if it was.

[nocturne crypt]

Yeah, in ApocTT I think PB morphs as a creature into the dedicated backup kill. The thing about Apocalypse is that it's a bit more loose. You don't get it instantly when bers is dead, but as a bonus you go through TP, stop many TI, and if you can be faster than Bers dying, you will get 2 kills.

However, this theory here doesn't work when everyone doesn't visit meta, and Bers dies d2 as usual. So it needs to be faster if PB is going to have some kind of consistency in my opinion

(and the Baker does your job but faster and better)

[young steppe]

PB in my eyes

is meanmt to be

an info stopper

and make everyone scared of eachother

[nocturne crypt]

Well that's an important piece of it- yeah, but ultimately when all the checkers pieces are on the floor and Bers is dead, PB needs to be able to get rid of priority targets

[hollow marsh]

I posted that Jailor idea after forgetting a discussion with Enny about Jailor lol

I think Apoc's funny. I find Pandora specifically really fun, since it's three goons trying to prop up their main guy

I personally really dislike Apoc-oriented rolelists though (AJR, ATT, etc.)

[nocturne crypt]

AJR sucks, ATT is an important part of tos history

[hollow marsh]

the zzz mode

[robust jasper]

Easily the most fun faction in the entire game, they're like a wild card that can pop out and obliterate anyone forcing town to not be passive. I'd say all 4 apocs besides baker are balanced.

[magic pumice]

AJR is a snooze fest

Still much better than anything with outliers that aren’t jackal

[tiny crater]

i like ajr

[nocturne crypt]

no, you do not.

[gloomy knot]

Guys I have this crazy idea: Evilonomicon

Berserker receives it N2
after N3 or more another apocalypse member can receive it after the previous Evilmicon holder dies

Evilonomicon allows you to attack directly
Plaguebearer kills them from the plague
Baker chokes them to death
Warlock locks them in a room with War
Soul collector actually reaps their soul

in that order

[bold summit]

what about evilnomicon?

perfect

[gloomy knot]

evilonomicon better

[bold summit]

yeah its perfect

quick question how does bers kill?

is their ability to kill removed?

[gloomy knot]

bers is the first one to receive it N2

Its just like pre-rework CL

its based around having the book first

[visual pewter]

Did you mean the Apoconomicon?

[bold summit]

hmm, but what if instead bers lost his axe?

[gloomy knot]

No it would be the Bersonomicon

[gloomy knot]

and what, would it track who visited who?

[bold summit]

no bers just sits there

its a minor bers nerf

[lapis acorn]

Oh man I could rant all day about these damn roles

And I actually did yap about them in DMs a long time ago so here goes

TL;DR: roles in an evil faction need to be specialists while NK/solo killer roles need to be generalists. You can’t design the same role to be both of those, which is why NA’s implementation in both Vanilla and BToS2 is severely lacking.

It really should be one way or the other, and since vanilla players evidently will never accept NA being solo again, the only real option is a full redesign to make NA a faction.
-# (+ a ToL clause so that I can finally have peace with NA in All Any)