#Election is underwhelming

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shrewd cliff
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"ranked" is a joke

cunning zodiac
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also downloaded btos 2 to play with a friend (it was super easy as well)

wintry current
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btos2 ranked is fun

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but like

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it's dead now

cunning zodiac
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Im a competitive TiS player

wintry current
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LOL

shrewd cliff
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TOS ranked makes as much sense as DBD ranked

cunning zodiac
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I won a CtF tournament

sullen nacelle
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you mean ranked coven when there is just 4 coven as evil?

wintry current
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and too much focus on "meta"

undone venture
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Dw guys I have 2000 ELO in TOS1 ranked fr

sullen nacelle
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i won the gold medal in pandora town traitor

wintry current
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for town it's a puzzle and for coven it's "don't suck"

undone venture
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Elo literally means nothing in a game with luck mechanics, but anyways

cunning zodiac
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i dont think ive ever even played the 10 ranked practice games in ToS1

wintry current
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and for neutrals you suffer for everyone else's entertainment

shrewd cliff
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Imo if you do more than just boot up the game and play it, you're not a causal lmao

wintry current
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and for jester it's free elo

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LOL

sullen nacelle
shrewd cliff
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Jester actually turns the tides on that one

sullen nacelle
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everyone suffers from jesters entertainment

wintry current
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if I'm jester it's just evils who suffer

undone venture
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Jester should haunt innocent voters fr

wintry current
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vfr

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moment

sullen nacelle
wintry current
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yeah because it lets me win

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why wouldn't I convince the majority to help me

sullen nacelle
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you can convince

wintry current
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I claim jester because it benefits me and the majority will help me

shrewd cliff
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Jester when it haunts town, it sorta harms evils

sullen nacelle
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but you can also betray them

sullen nacelle
wintry current
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yes but then they won't help me in the future

steel temple
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This might be entirely misinformation btw so take this with a massive grain of salt, but I heard from someone who played TOS 1 on basically launch day that Exe and Jester used to be Neutral Benign? Before witch was added?

wintry current
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it's called meta gaming

steel temple
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I do not know if this has any basis I can't find anything supporting that

shrewd cliff
sullen nacelle
steel temple
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NE apparently didn't exist at the very beginning according to them

undone venture
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Witch wasnt in the game in launch day? That's hard to believe

wintry current
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I don't get the appeal of jester betraying town

steel temple
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It is very likely just misinformation

wintry current
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they literally help you win

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lmfao

undone venture
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When the game literally is Town of Salem

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The town know for you know what

shrewd cliff
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Unless they're talking about some unreleased dev build, there has always been NE

sullen nacelle
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cuz betraying is fun

wintry current
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then they won't help you later

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and you win less

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bad tactic

sullen nacelle
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you are not likely to meet the same players

wintry current
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in ranked

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cmon

sullen nacelle
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also begging for jester win is lame

shrewd cliff
distant copper
steel temple
wintry current
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idk what to tell you

steel temple
sullen nacelle
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yeah, but its not fun

undone venture
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Tbh they should let amne choose his role

wintry current
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they shouldn't not help you because they lose a tk shot

steel temple
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I misremembered šŸ˜­

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It was in SC2 mafia they were Neutral Benign

wintry current
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"it's not fun" mfw I won and am having fun gaining elo

steel temple
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I think one of the BMG devs literally helped make SC2 mafia btw which is why they are so similar

shrewd cliff
wintry current
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I'm sure having fun losing because I claimed seer and got confirmed

undone venture
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Neutral benign = Survivor šŸ¤®

wintry current
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I'd rather play the sdg

sullen nacelle
undone venture
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Jester best TI

wintry current
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neutrals have the issue of things being out of your control

undone venture
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Yeah that's why you're a neutral

wintry current
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btw this is the difference between me and you all

mint plover
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wasnt there like. barely any elo penalty for losing as NK in tos 1

undone venture
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And why you have defense

mint plover
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because playing neutral sucked

wintry current
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as someone who plays competitively, I try to win

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simple

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I don't play only to win

shrewd cliff
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Neutrals are my favorite when they're exclusively anti-town "technically not the main evil faction"

wintry current
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but I baseline try my best

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within reason

sullen nacelle
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sk apposes town

undone venture
wintry current
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SK isn't neutral

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it's SK

undone venture
wintry current
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it's the third faction

shrewd cliff
wintry current
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it's literally just a one player faction

undone venture
shrewd cliff
undone venture
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Still a neutral

sullen nacelle
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what do you think a neutral is

undone venture
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He literally is NK

steel temple
shrewd cliff
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Lmao

undone venture
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Eh doom and jester are less egregious

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Cuz inquisitor can get 3 evils as targets

shrewd cliff
undone venture
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Which is fucking stupid

sullen nacelle
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do you think only ne is a neutral?

undone venture
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No?

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We have survivor

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Fr

wintry current
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like with my politician suggestion people were like "this isn't town because it swaps factions"

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even though functionally it is...

undone venture
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How else would you call a soloist faction that doesn't have teammates other than neutral because neutral doesn't mean it can't be biased

wintry current
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It makes as much sense as "neutral killing" in aa

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so

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two solo killings is a duo killing fr

undone venture
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I mean NKs should try a lean into being unique and should be unique

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Instead of hoping and praying you get double arso

sullen nacelle
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is cs a neutral?

shrewd cliff
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Me when town has to deal with 3 skinsuit sks

undone venture
sullen nacelle
undone venture
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Sure, but like you don't have evil games in AA with 3 mayors

sullen nacelle
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cuz it breaks the game

undone venture
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Exactly

shrewd cliff
undone venture
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There shouldnt be 2 of the same NK cuz it genuinely breaks the game

distant copper
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4 Shrouds is fair and balanced real

undone venture
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Shroud is ass either way

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I don't mind 2 Mafioso

sullen nacelle
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no i mean it literally breaks the game

undone venture
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Shroud is basically GF, change my mind

sullen nacelle
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jailor doesnt work if its not unique

distant copper
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I don't think multiple Mayors would physically break the game, multiple Jailors would tho

sullen nacelle
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multiple nk doent affect anything but all any

sullen nacelle
undone venture
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I guess that's the only difference

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Along with trapper

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Otherwise it basically godfather without a faction

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But instead of sending Mafioso, you hope and pray a townie visits a person you actually want to kill

wintry current
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shroud has shroud

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which is harder to detect

distant copper
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Shroud: Kill that guy
Townie: Who?
Shroud: idk whoever you're currently going to

undone venture
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Which is something people dont use because of the lack of agency the ability has

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Otherwise you're literally godfather

wintry current
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I dunno it's kinda fun to use

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but it could be adjusted

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I agree

sullen nacelle
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why does it affect seer or psychic?

undone venture
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Because sheriff already finds 80% of evils with no questions asked

sullen nacelle
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not

wintry current
sullen nacelle
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whats the difference

wintry current
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you can detect anything as sheriff...

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...but only at different points

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baseline, coven are immune to sheriff night 1 by default

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but not NPs

undone venture
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Wym not? 3-4 covens, all apoc, NPs, NEs that's not jester (that's a good thing) and beta trickster

wintry current
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however, there exists counterplay to that too

undone venture
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Why the fuck was trickster sus at some point lmao

sullen nacelle
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sus trickster?

wintry current
sullen nacelle
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was it coroner or what

distant copper
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This role might be strong, let's make it sus for no reason

sullen nacelle
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letss give it to wretch

undone venture
wintry current
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bmg balancing...

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my favorite...

undone venture
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For some reason

sullen nacelle
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i assume vet was sus too

undone venture
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No

wintry current
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it was a different game in the beta

undone venture
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It was just trickster

wintry current
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pretty much

sullen nacelle
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thats so random and inconsistent

undone venture
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Proactive BG was also a great mechanic

wintry current
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Like not to glorify the btos2 devs too hard but like, they got way too much hate when I think they saved tos2 šŸ˜­

sullen nacelle
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what hate?

undone venture
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How tuba diverted too much from the game apparently

wintry current
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from toxic nostalgia-focused fans

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like it was unwarranted

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and dumb

sullen nacelle
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the game was only out for a year

wintry current
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some of the criticisms were like so stupid

undone venture
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When you had shit like proactive BG, the most skillfull role in the game

wintry current
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like the game is practically balanced by literal memes and now that they are gone they get upset

sullen nacelle
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the tos1 mechanics werent even changed

wintry current
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like how deputy worked before

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like

undone venture
wintry current
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who tf cares that you are discouraged from shooting day 2 just shut up

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that was so braindead

undone venture
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Because doctor couldn't heal mayor in TOS1

sullen nacelle
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wdym nostalgia over deputy

distant copper
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b- but.... my random shot šŸ„ŗ

wintry current
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deputy got so much criticism

undone venture
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Btw random shooting is why vigi can't shoot n1

sullen nacelle
undone venture
sullen nacelle
wintry current
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I brought up pipetron because he shot day 2 a lot but like, I feel like people take what he says so seriously (then the devs said stop the slander)

shrewd cliff
wintry current
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but most of them only play aa

sullen nacelle
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absolutely not

wintry current
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yeah it's like top 5 roles rn

undone venture
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The reason why dep was changed is the same reason why vigi can't shoot n1

wintry current
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for town

shrewd cliff
wintry current
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yeah

undone venture
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Because people would random shoot, get it wrong, then leave

sullen nacelle
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deputy somehow could shoot someone who didnt even have the chance the speak

wintry current
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I'm mostly tired of casual from btos2 but it's so much better

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I think that "outliers" are kinda overrated but I get the casual appeal

sullen nacelle
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like at least let them unable to shoot till voting

undone venture
wintry current
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cultist is fine, CS is getting changed too to be more evil sided

shrewd cliff
sullen nacelle
wintry current
undone venture
wintry current
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vigi is like #4

sullen nacelle
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also let the vigi reload mechanic be unaffected by roleblockers

undone venture
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Vigi should have to fire 1 bullet at a time tbh

wintry current
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dep is #5

wintry current
undone venture
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He has flintlock ffs

shrewd cliff
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Vigilante should just be one shot

sullen nacelle
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like i dont get why roleblocking stops reload when its a passive

undone venture
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Since when do flintlocks hold multiple bullets

wintry current
undone venture
shrewd cliff
wintry current
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I made it one shot in my rebalance

sullen nacelle
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the vigi nerf is balanced

wintry current
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so that tks actually can be "common"

undone venture
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I love when I click a button then sit on my ass the whole game

sullen nacelle
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vigi doesnt need another nerf

shrewd cliff
sullen nacelle
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by d6

undone venture
sullen nacelle
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d7

undone venture
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2 bullets, can only hold one at a time

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That's how I would nerf vigi

shrewd cliff
undone venture
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You already engage with the SDG by shooting

shrewd cliff
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Since you're already confirmed at least a killer

sullen nacelle
shrewd cliff
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No town role should "carry" a town

undone venture
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If you're not scum reading as vigi idk what you're doing... And scum reading is part taking in the SDG

undone venture
shrewd cliff
sullen nacelle
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also vigi is just a worse jailor

shrewd cliff
undone venture
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Is that a bad thing?

sullen nacelle
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not a bad thing but dont tell to nerf a role that is a worse verion of another

undone venture
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How do you nerf jailor (other than making him 2 exes) without taking the theme of the role away or just making him tav +

wintry current
shrewd cliff
undone venture
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Jailor was TK back in TOS1

wintry current
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more than a tpow, that thing is bonkers strong

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even for tpow itā€™s scary

sullen nacelle
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imagine tos1 jailor here

undone venture
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Jailor never loses his keys

sullen nacelle
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a tk that doesnt lose executes

undone venture
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?

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He did lose exes back then

sullen nacelle
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i mean ability to jail

undone venture
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Yeah that's what I said

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Never loses his keys

wintry current
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Fresh gave me an idea for a Jailor/VIP hybrid mode where if the jailor dies, town loses. Jailor is still nerfed in that mode fyi.

sullen nacelle
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i m slow

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isnt VIP a nerf?

undone venture
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It is

sullen nacelle
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what if the VIP effect was silent

wintry current
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The nerf idea was that all evils were tos1 sk

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not literally

undone venture
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Wtf

sullen nacelle
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like nobody knows the jailor

wintry current
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but they could all jailbreak

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so if you jail you commit

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essentially

undone venture
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At that point why are you jailing

sullen nacelle
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sk cam still jailbreak right?

wintry current
undone venture
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You just become vigi

sullen nacelle
wintry current
sullen nacelle
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and roleblock the killer

undone venture
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Then you're just vigi

wintry current
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im talking about my own game

sullen nacelle
wintry current
undone venture
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That only matters if it's book holder

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Cuz you're not gonna tell me you're exited for RBing the illusionist

wintry current
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I donā€™t think you all realize how broken jailor is already

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and illusionist isnā€™t in tos:e yet

sullen nacelle
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since jailor is combination of vigi and tav they should spawn in both tk and ts

wintry current
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Jailor would be in its own mode

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essentially

undone venture
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I am aware jailor is a bit overturned, but making him vigi+ or tav+ isn't a fix

sullen nacelle
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JailIP

wintry current
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like I said, itā€™s the only way I can think rn to add jailor

undone venture
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How about don't

wintry current
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I mean

undone venture
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Or just replace tav with him

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There you go

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Obviously no exes

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He just jails

shrewd cliff
undone venture
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Tav already is self confirming

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????

wintry current
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Tavern is reworked because roleblocks are reworked

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disruption is silent but can be chained

shrewd cliff
undone venture
wintry current
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So defensive abilities give less information

undone venture
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Idk about chained disrupts though

wintry current
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because you can rb the book holder but another evil can claim to save someone

shrewd cliff
wintry current
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lying exists

undone venture
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Yeah because it doesn't matter if they are silent if you can never kill

wintry current
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fake rbers can exist

shrewd cliff
undone venture
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Me when I am Mafioso but I'm permanently jailed even if I lied about RBd

wintry current
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NKs arenā€™t a thing yet but they might just be rb immune

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as they are designed to be strong

shrewd cliff
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Me when I don't get to play the video game because someone decided to fuck me over

wintry current
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if you had hangover then it would be even weaker than it already is

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so

shrewd cliff
wintry current
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minstrel is fine imo

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so is exo

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lycanthrope is dumb though

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the point of them is being a little strong

shrewd cliff
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I don't like "You don't play this night, for evils"

wintry current
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in a game like botc you can get away with things not being perfectly fair

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because the st can just choose to adjust things

wintry current
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or drunk

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or widow

shrewd cliff
wintry current
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as if you canā€™t just ā€œsocializeā€ your way into winning

shrewd cliff
#

Good is the SDG, evils get the abilities to deceive

wintry current
#

In the late game you can cc exorcist

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You or a minion can claim a different role that explains your situation

shrewd cliff
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Good shouldn't have a hard "NO" evils

wintry current
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You can sink kills to limit information

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okay so how is tav fair then

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if exorcist isnā€™t

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how is jailor fair

shrewd cliff
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I don't like hard "NO"s

wintry current
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The counterplay is that the tav doesnā€™t know you are evil other than by using context clues

shrewd cliff
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A good SDG is like improv, it's always a "yes, and"

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Except for when you die

wintry current
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Either way

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we will need to see it tested

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because rbers are going to be less trusted

undone venture
# undone venture
poll_question_text

What's better rn

victor_answer_votes

4

total_votes

4

victor_answer_id

1

victor_answer_text

Vigi

sullen nacelle
#

you be talking about anything but election

wintry current
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election would be cool if we used it for tt hunt or something

undone venture
# sullen nacelle you be talking about anything but election

Because election genuinely sucks since if town gets elected they become a shittier mayor because they lose their ability for some reason and if an evil gets elected they become SS with a killing ability along their usual role, so town is discouraged on engaging with the gimmick because it rewards evils while punishing town

steel temple
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Otherwise itā€™d always go on the jailor or monarch or anything

cunning zodiac
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You dont even gain votes

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passively

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You just get 2 and then you can tarnation off

sullen nacelle
cunning zodiac
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Town gets screwed over so much while evils have the best thing they can have

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vote power

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Okay so what if the town instead of voting somebody up to trial, they choose a sovereign, this sovereign now chooses to prosecute somebody

sullen nacelle
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so now instead of tos1 mayor you now become a prosecutor

cunning zodiac
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yes

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no drawbacks

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but you lose the prosecute the next day

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and a person cannot be chosen twice in a row

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so its like select the person you trust the most to make the correct decision

sullen nacelle
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that could work

steel temple
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Ftr tho I'm not arguing that election is well designed, but the modifier also becomes kind of pointless if it's not designed properly

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There needs to be some risk of actually electing an evil player, which with TOS being how it is can be very difficult when you'd have no reason not to just elect whoever is mechanically confirmed

cunning zodiac
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I was just pointing out it was a way worse mayor

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that evils could have

frozen apex
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Election needs an overhaul, honestly.

cunning zodiac
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everybody knows that

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it just needs a different effect than gaining votes

frozen apex
#

The sovereign should have the exact same effects on both townies and evils. Why does it have to screw over townies, and hard benefit evils?

sullen nacelle
#

like talkative said, king from ToL could work

frozen apex
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Ironically, yeah that would be cool

sullen nacelle
#

ironically?

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or unironically

frozen apex
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It's somehow something we don't have in ToS2, considering how much it has taken from ToL already

sullen nacelle
#

we only took inquisitor from there

cunning zodiac
#

Ran with the idea

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it makes mayor a role !