[REWORK] Werewolf's new motto is "You Are What You Eat".

[dusky holly]

Werewolf (Neutral Killing)

Attack: Powerful
Defense: Basic

Familiarity (Passive)

• You gain the abilities of every role you kill, including their charges and status.
• At the start of Day 1, you gain the ability of a Town Investigative of your choice. Failing to choose will give you Tracker by default.
• This ability fails on Neutral Evils, Cursed Soul, and Jailor.

Imitate (♾️, ☀️)

• Choose a role you have access to to Imitate as tonight.
• Upon choosing a role, you may not directly attack anyone that night.
• On non-full moon nights, if you do not choose a role, you will select the Town Investigative role you've selected Day 1.

Rampage (♾️, 🌙)

• Choose a target's place to Rampage at, attacking the target and all of their visitors.
• You may only Rampage on full moon nights.

Attributes:

• Upon death, you will always show as Werewolf, regardless of the role you're imitating.
• If Compliant Killers is enabled, you will instead be shown as Werewolf (Compliance).

Gimmick

There are many suggestions to make SK less like an NO by changing its gimmick to be less game-altering, but I think it should work the other way around, where the other NKs should become more influential and more like SK.

This is the Werewolf rework, which works similarly to Ret/Necro, but it has some differences, namely the fact that it isn't limited by the corpse's charges and the fact that it can visit.

Here are the reworks for the other NKs:
https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1423304729592594474
https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1423321866931540128

@tidal grove @fleet pilot

[snow marten]

THE WW HEX BOMB IS REAL

[fleet pilot]

It seems a bit weak

as in this doesn’t have deception, unlike the other two

peak icon btw lol

[snow marten]

Technically you could get ench but first you have to kill an ench so ehhhhh

[dusky holly]

Defo the weaker of the three I'm going to go through, but I liked the idea of WW gaining every ability after some point.

[rocky scaffold]

vigilante ?

youd have to reload ig

if you imitate a vigilante its going to be useless

[dusky holly]

That is true. Assuming it kills a vigi n2, it wouldn't be able to shoot until n4 (assuming it intentionally chooses not to use its rampage and chooses to instead imitate d4, and if it imitates the vigi d3)

same with Trapper

[rocky scaffold]

a lot of roles are useless when imitating

Trapper,Vigilante, Tpows except Pacifist and Monarch

[dusky holly]

And Deputy.

I didn't want it to suddenly reveal as a Mayor lol.

That's why I added that "can't use daytime abilities" clause

I thought it would be too wacky.

[dusky holly]

Do you think it'd be an interesting idea for it to be able to use daytime abilities?

[rocky scaffold]

i mean it adds doubt to a dep that shot...

thats a good thing ?

[dusky holly]

That is true

[rocky scaffold]

you could even fake Jailor ? lol

but TE is 1 per game so

itd be obvious

and you have to kill a jailor for that

[dusky holly]

I do like the idea of it being able to use Dep, but there hasn't been a role that has multiple daytime abilities yet, so I thought not to add that.

Also Amne messes with the "Imitate Jailor" idea

[rocky scaffold]

the way i imagine is

you use imitate during day

become that role but ww aligned immediately

then turn back the next morning to werewolf

however i do not know how CS swaps would mess with this

Factional defense being a thing helps a lot here tho

[dusky holly]

So, let's say it chooses Deputy d3 (it killed a dep n2).

Would it be able to use Deputy ability d4, would it have the Imitate ability d4, or both?

[tidal grove]

N-no at least 1 kpn?

[rocky scaffold]

it becomes dep immediately

[tidal grove]

Oh wait WW can gain access to evil roles

[rocky scaffold]

but youd be

forfeiting the night kill

[dusky holly]

yeah

[rocky scaffold]

if you use it on a day before full moon

[dusky holly]

gotcha

so it could also use Conjurer lol

I wonder if it should have a blacklist of roles that it cannot use under any circumstances (NEs, etc.)

[rocky scaffold]

this is not a bad idea but it has issues with certain roles yes

Vigilante/Trapper being useless , weird interactions with NE's

[dusky holly]

Should it gain the ability to imitate the role in the state it was killed in, then?

[rocky scaffold]

ig that can work

[dusky holly]

i.e. Cleric used self-barrier n1 and was killed by WW n2, so WW imitate has no Cleric self barrier

[meager adder]

imitate should ignore previous charges

its not like amne mon loses a knight

[dusky holly]

That's what it did in the previous suggestion, but it messes with vigi/trapper interactions

[tidal grove]

Amne bad tho

[rocky scaffold]

yeah but amne mon is always mon, vigilante and trapper are useless in the current way

hmmmm

[meager adder]

let vigi just shoot when imitating?

could that work?

[dusky holly]

Maybe it imitates the role as if it was afk since d1?

[meager adder]

yeah

but how would it work with retri

[dusky holly]

meaning killing and imitating a spent vigi d7 would grant you the WW 3 Loaded shots n7

[dusky holly]

same way Amne works with Ret

[meager adder]

considering you still have to kill at night

[meager adder]

amne doesnt have an ability of its own

[gusty halo]

this is a retri/necro issue too tbf

less so for vigi

but just in general what you can do

[meager adder]

you can use paci as ret?

[rocky scaffold]

no

imitating paci

as ww

[meager adder]

so if multiple ww imitate paci

[dusky holly]

should this have the ability to imitate Jailor? I don't think it'd work well here

[meager adder]

do they just win on the spot

[eternal rampart]

This doesnt seem like a werewolf to me tbh

its more of an oversized parrot

[dusky holly]

I'm assuming you're referring to the image?

The image is the Rampage Icon, the Track Scent Icon without the scent, and two Psychic Visions

[eternal rampart]

No its just how it behaves

Im not familiar with werewolves stealing their victim's abilities

[gusty halo]

Oh I just noticed that this is an overall buff

[dusky holly]

Oh.

Yeah it's not based on any mythos or anything. I was just building on the common buff idea of letting it imitate any one Town role.

[gusty halo]

you’re TI then werewolf then retri then werewolf then werewolf then werewolf then werewolf then werewolf

and more werewolves

[dusky holly]

Or you're TI then TI then TI then TI then werewolf lmao

[viscid needle]

Can't wait to Imitate Werewolf

[green summit]

This is really good. I wonder if there's a way to give yourself a Werewolf necronomicon so you can actually use your "ability" and rampage at the same time, but this is great as is.

[dusky holly]

OH SHIT I forgot about Indoc Town mechanics.

[green summit]

Yeah, it's in the game. I don't see why you shouldn't lose your perfect TI fakeclaim or your Voodoo Master ability cannibalization.

[green summit]

One suggestion though, I think if you die during a non full moon or something it would be Investigator (Werewolf) but this is just werewolf doing its thing, so I'd use that Illu / Pacifist magic here

• Upon death, any member of the Werewolf faction will always flip as Werewolf.
• If Compliant Killers is enabled, the original Werewolf will always flip as Werewolf (Compliance)

[dusky holly]

gotcha

[lone vortex]

cs fuckery

is the problem

[green summit]

That depends on how Tuba would hypothetically code that

[lone vortex]

I think just getting the ability would be better

so you don't have to do something like that

because it would cause a ww who was swapped to show as ww

and a cs ww to always show as the role they became

which is too much inconsistent behavior

and weirdness

[green summit]

I think I may be cooked, every time I try to answer it says the message contains "content blocked by this server"

[lone vortex]

HOW

wtf are you saying

[green summit]

I'll assume it was a slight mistake so I'll just screencap it

[lone vortex]

I see why

it's the []

()

[viscid needle]

Why is that banned

[lone vortex]

no clue

[viscid needle]

Literally 2025

[lone vortex]

(Role)[Werewolf]

that works fine

[viscid needle]

Parenthesis go around the faction

[lone vortex]

I know but that's blocked

for some reason

[viscid needle]

Just do Role (Werewolf)

[full charm]

This getting coven roles seems a bit broken but funny

Mfw I transform into furry, horseman of the apocalypse

[dusky holly]

wtf's blocked there?

[lone vortex]

Can you kill transformed apocalypse members at night?

if so then you deserve to become their role

because you are all powerful

they'd need to lose a defense level TWICE

[full charm]

I figured like killing bers and using their abilites but ok if

[lone vortex]

I assume the status would reset

so you couldn't transform

[full charm]

Oh that's true ig

[lone vortex]

the real question is

how would this work if it uses https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1423304729592594474

[fleet pilot]

It would be nice if you could imitate and use Rampage at the same time on different targets

But that would require a special ui

[snow marten]

What happens if ww uses an apoc

Can they become death

[viscid needle]

Not really unless your imitating a double selection role

[viscid needle]

Can you kill Death as Werewolf?

[snow marten]

No, I was meaning can you transform into death

[lone vortex]

yes

tokens and disconnecting

[viscid needle]

True!

[snow marten]

New update: tokens shot dead in the water

But if the amount of for example bullets vigi has saves, would the amount of souls or the amount of kills apoc has save?

[lone vortex]

vigi shots in chamber should save imo

rest shouldn't

[snow marten]

This is a great day, trapper is now unusable

Murder trapper

[lone vortex]

using trapper as WW would literally hurt you

why would you do that

[snow marten]

How would it hurt you, as far as im aware you cant use a role and rampage at the same time

[lone vortex]

future

[snow marten]

You could use it to protect another ww, or gain info

[lone vortex]

the future

you have to then avoid that trap

[snow marten]

You dont if the trap gets triggered

[lone vortex]

because you have no idea when it triggers if it doesn't trigger same night unless you imitate trapper again and it triggers on that night

i'd assume

like how ret works with spy

[snow marten]

Worst case scenario you could become another role and trigger the trap yourself

[lone vortex]

then you're wasting a night doing THAT

[snow marten]

And if you trap a person who didn't get visited you fucked up anyways

[lone vortex]

And if you trap a person who didn't get visited you fucked up anyways

[snow marten]

Using trapper is not a bad thing, gaining info about roles in the game is useful info

[dense wadi]

@snow marten has leveled up! (2 ➜ 3)

[snow marten]

Especially since nks need to balance town and coven impact on the game, figuring out info about who is good/evil to get a better guess on who to kill is extremely helpful

[worldly venture]

hyperlinks

you can bypass the automod filter with these and post slurs

thats why they are banned

[snow marten]

Are you saying...
Hyperlink is blocked?

[viscid needle]

https://tenor.com/view/hyperlink-heart-gif-23159050

[worldly venture]

Take their time and take their heart
until the [[telephone is ringing]]

[kind phoenix]

This is a cool idea but its prob too weak due to being unable to kill the night if you use an ability

Missing out on 1 kill, not to mention 2 or 3, is massive

[green summit]

Regular Werewolf is awful, so the best thing to do is try

I predict this will be weaker than SK, but better than Shroud just from the raw utility.

[kind phoenix]

Tbf shroud also sucks balls

but yea

you have a good point

imo just let it use all non-lethal town abilities unconditionally

and let it use any town ability that can kill in exchange for the night kill

ALso I feel like vigi should come loaded if you pick vig

bc like

having unloaded vigilante is just 🥀

[green summit]

There's a big jump between Become a Role(Werewolf) and Become a Role(Werewolf) but if you're a Vigi you have a bullet already

I can't say for certain as I'm not tuba, but I think that would be an amount of extra work. I think it would be better to just toss it together and try it, and if it seems like it's working, to dig into those specifics

[gusty halo]

If people are worried about theming, just pretend that this is a reference to social deduction games. I.e. games where an informed minority must try to blend into the majority by claiming to be among them.

That or that werewolf is a person outside being a werewolf

[spare python]

Honestly, I kinda just would like to have WW to have a "claimbag ability" and a consistent killpower ability. And just have WW change roles at "midnight" like overcharge currently allows

And just ban using TKs TG and evils

[eternal rampart]

You know what, ww being a townie while theres a non-full moon might is pretty good theming

[copper python]

I dont know about this kit being on werewolf. I've had thoughts of putting exactly this on SK, but just not sure about any of it.

[dusky holly]

An apparently unpopular opinion: I really like modded SK as it currently is, though admittedly it's a pseudo-NO. The idea was to make every NK into a pseudo-NO, which is why this WW can technically win on Hex Bomb.

[lone vortex]

I also like modded SK

Very fun imo

[meager adder]

isnt unpopular at all

[dusky holly]

I guess those who like SK are a silent majority then

[green summit]

Yeah it is not unpopular. Modded SK is a complete success

[worldly venture]

I fucking love current SK

But Id rather bitch about how much I hate neutrals

[dusky holly]

I also really like Skinsuit SK. I just see an unusual amount of flack for it.

[worldly venture]

Weaklings

[green summit]

Some people hate everything, it happens.

[dusky holly]

yeah lol

[worldly venture]

We should cull em

[meager adder]

literally everything is OP according to them

i saw someone who wanted wildling nerfed

[eternal rampart]

I recently watched like a 2 year old pipe tier list and wilding was in A

[snow marten]

In aa, that kind of makes sense

You would be surprised just how much people do not worry about wildling and whisper info anyways in aa

At least they used to im not sure anymore

[spare python]

While I don't hate the idea of skinsuit SK, it just poisons the NK bucket as a whole, since there's a balanced NK when placed in "regular" lists, two very inconsistent NKs, and a hydrogen bomb. I would agree with making NKs more psudo-NO could be interesting more so than the "inconsistent killpower for factional evils so that they can lynch you later in a kingmaker situation that you were designed to create." These "psudo-NO NKs" lists could be like PPv1, with the NK being the center focus and having minor supporting evils like jackal, NPs, and NEs that don't know who the NK is. This is also why I want NEs to be NP-lites, since the swing of having an NP and not is a bit too great, but there isn't anything in between.

[lone vortex]

mhm

[copper python]

Also I know I shouldnt be theme balancing but I kind of like the idea of werewolf being a rampaging monster more than it being some mage creature

-# I guess it does keep rampage

[viscid needle]

Themeing-wise Werewolves are human most of the time, only becoming a Werewolf on Full Moons

[copper python]

Well this is salem where nights are 40 seconds long and the full moon phase is very inconsistent

Its a constant full moon here

Maybe im just biased towards the idea of six sense werewolf

[kind phoenix]

Tbf that was when wild saw EVERY visit so it just hard outed every neutral in the lobby on night 1

[frail flower]

I still think this is a very neat idea and like the concept of buffing NKs in general

at least so that SK isnt the standout compared to Shroud and Werewolf

-# Arsonist is fine

[dusky holly]

Did you make a wiki entry for your idea of a buff?

[frail flower]

I just use the wiki for drafting

I have a page for it its where I put things before they get implemented

among other things

-# like the stuff for 1.8

[frail flower]

Also this suggestion is similar to Mycoswarm so its peak

I've liked the idea of a role that can do other roles and werewolf has probably good theming for it

[dusky holly]

Ngl I didn't think about having it so Werewolf becomes a role you can remember on full moon nights lol.

In my head it was more like you become WW if you don't choose anyone (your method is better)

ALSO THE APOC CONDITION LMAO

[polar sundial]

I would imagine it’s a global 1-use, probably not useable but maybe still transformable into

But not killing would be the sacrifice it makes

[dusky holly]

I'm just wondering how day abilities in general would work, since WW transform would also be a day ability

[polar sundial]

Ah

[green summit]

it is indeed very cool

[green summit]

Probably would need to be an extra button like the Necronomicon is or something

[dusky holly]

Yeah

[cerulean orchid]

If this was a town or apoc/cov role It would be insanely broken but nks suck so bad and this just seems awesome

I'm all for it

[dusky holly]

That's sort of the idea lol

Also SC is just Outlier Arso

[cerulean orchid]

Yo add me to the list I wanna see these frame 1 cuz these seem awesome

[dusky holly]

Bro this was almost a month ago lol

Also I pinged them because I referred to how I was going to do two other posts in my Shroud post

And they were curious

[green summit]

Yeah, I agree with this- every NK needs to be around as strong as Serial Killer.

[dense wadi]

@green summit has leveled up! (52 ➜ 53)

[green summit]

Actually that kind of makes sense. I think Arsonist is great myself but technically speaking it as it's a NK it should be flat out stronger than Soul Collector and Warlock (At least when they are in a team)

[dusky holly]

I discovered that when I was trying to think of a cool Arso NO gimmick like with WW and Shroud and all I could think of was "Arso blows everyone up after a certain condition was met" lol

[cerulean orchid]

Lies

This was released today

[copper python]

I think think we should add sixth sense into the game belonging to werewolf.

to me thats the perfect rework (though i may be a little biased).

[frail flower]

sixth sense only really works if you add extra time to the night specifically for werewolf

or have auto-adjusting abilities but thats more of a coven thing

[copper python]

Yeah fullmoon would be reworked to do that

[frail flower]

Curtis had talked about Fresh's Wildling sixth sense idea as interesting

where your actions are changed based on who people visit

[copper python]

#1412980974232535070 message I made the suggestion already, just didnt get picked up and died.

[copper python]

I kind of had an idea for that

[cerulean orchid]

What is sixth sense

[dusky holly]

Essentially, you will know your target's inputs in real time

[cerulean orchid]

Yooo that's kinda awesome but also problematic considering it makes the meta making your decision last second

[dusky holly]

The issue is that it isn't all that strong on a soloist.

It's more of an ability meant for coordination, not for someone who's goal is to kill everyone.

Even with a rampage ability, it doesn't do a whole lot for Werewolf besides let it claimbag a little easier.

[frail flower]

from what I read their idea was that you basically try to rampage whoever your prey visits so it gives WW a consistent 2KPN on full moons

[dusky holly]

Oh, so as a role, it gets one kill on n1 and n3, and two+ kills on n2 and n4

I think that's a completely different issue lol

[thin moss]

Me when I kill the Veteran and become freaking invincible

[fleet pilot]

does he know

[spare python]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-solid-snake-big-boss-gif-12248663