#TK changes

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glacial shadow
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The TK bucket is in desperate need for changes to make all TK balanced, because Vigi is the clear best TK with dep being a close second, so these changes should make the bucket feel more equal in terms of power.

Vigilante

  • Bullets: 3 -> 2

Deputy

  • If you miss a shot on an evil, you will see the same message, but once they flip as evil you will get your shot back.

Trickster

  • Now uses Magic Mirror and Unleash in unison, but you only visit your MM target.
  • If your MM target is attacked, the attacker will be redirected to your Unleash target unless the attack was Unstoppable.
  • Your MM target does not receive any feedback that they were saved.
  • You do not learn anything about the attack you redirected, only that you were successful in redirecting an attack.
  • The attacker whose attack you redirect will learn that their attack was redirected by a Trickster.
  • If multiple tricksters attempt to redirect the same attack, all but one will silently fail.
  • The attacker is seen visiting who you redirect them onto.

Veteran

  • Alert only kills attackers, and afflicts all visitors with Wary (including the attacker should they live).
  • You do not learn who is Wary, and no one learns that they are.
  • New Ability: Revenge (🌙,3️⃣) - Visit a player. If they are wary, deal a Basic Attack (Alert is still powerful to attackers) to them. If this fails (due to defense or target not being wary), the attack will not go through and you will lose all remaining charges.
  • Wary players cannot be killed until the night after they become Wary.
  • Lose all charges of Alert during TT hunts.

Optional TK changes

  • Could make all TK unique
  • Could make all kills made by any TK show as "They were killed by a Town Killing." or "They were killed by a member of the Town."
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Just some (somewhat) unique changes to TK, not too sure if these will be liked

glacial shadow
covert canopy
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Like as much as vet needs a rework I fucking love vet how it is and dont wanna see it changed

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I dislike but because of personal vet bias

glacial shadow
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This is also an attempt at giving TKs each their own uniqueness

slow herald
cloud yoke
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Yay you managed to make 2 shot vigilante work

glacial shadow
cloud yoke
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Does alert grant basic defense still

glacial shadow
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I'd say probably not?

cloud yoke
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ok

slow herald
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ok then liked

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btw check out #1411032023962746940

glacial shadow
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If successful yes, if it fails it loses the ability to gain more (To prevent mass confirm)

slow herald
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you should most likely

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limit that to 2

glacial shadow
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Alright

oak anchor
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Deputy is only useful if town is fucking up, while vigi still can be used to snowball. Imo, vigi should be the "come back mechanic" and deputy should stay as is

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Vet also mostly becomes useless since it doesn't effectively work as a "bait role" since it no longer grants defense. D1 tplo as vet is now an actual strategy

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Also as written trickster has theoretically infinite killpower, same as with dep

glacial shadow
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Dep caps at 2

oak anchor
glacial shadow
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Also that's already implemented

oak anchor
glacial shadow
glacial shadow
glacial shadow
oak anchor
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So it's still a "comeback mechanic"

glacial shadow
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True ig, I'm not really sure what to do with trick because current one acts too much like a TP

oak anchor
glacial shadow
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Alright I completely changed around the reworks

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Still deciding on vet

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what if revenge only had 2 charges and requires you to select 2 targets, and you will kill both if and only if they are both Wounded?

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Maybe with these changes TK could become unique as well

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not sure

dawn crater
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vig is too hard of a nerf

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deputy sure but it overlaps with a certain executive even more ?

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vet has no way of dealing with attackers

glacial shadow
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I don't think vigi is too hard of a nerf, town get hanged pretty often
Pros needs to be reworked imo
Changed Vet to have 3 charges of Alert and gain defense while on alert

mystic tartan
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If town aren't getting hanged, town doesn't really need shots

golden sequoia
dense oriole
thorny hare
# glacial shadow I don't think vigi is too hard of a nerf, town get hanged pretty often Pros need...

Vigis nerf wouldn’t be hard except you have to load in addition, it means that at minimum you get to play the game N3 a coroner mistake, that’s assuming town mislynches day 2 it’s entirely possible to be a rock until day 5 or later and even then it’s just a basic attack useful for coven and factional appoc but the later the game goes the higher the odds people have defense (NA defense clause for example)

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Vigi would be the worst TK role and it wouldn’t be particularly close

dense oriole
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Also why is Barber constantly coming back?

thorny hare
dense oriole
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The return of Barber, but again again

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I do think the Vigi and Trick overhauls kinda clash with one another, and Trickster would outclass Vigi in almost every way here.

thorny hare
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Also considering it’s non unique 2 shot dep is bad like really bad because you either miss and are no better than current dep (with does main issue being when it misses on an evil) or daytime delete two evils like prosecutor except if your second shot misfires you get info over a dead townie

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I think Magic Mirriors could still be incorporated into tricks kit just make then last longer and not protect

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Vet seems ok in theory but in practice is just a worse version of current vet in most scenarios and still had the issue of massive swing with a potential 4 kills as a TK

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Like vet needs changes but this makes it not that much better (but I will concede it’s probably more healthy than current vet)

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I just really despise this vigilante it requires town to actively fuck up and is a shitty comeback tool when they do

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A role shouldn’t be a rock because your faction never screwed up, barber works as a concept because it’s based on the evils gaining advantage over you via their own kill power not town screwing up

dense oriole
thorny hare
cloud yoke
glacial shadow
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Reverted vigi back to current and just lowered it's shots to 2 because the raising of the other TK's power means there is no need for vigi to be nerfed
Changed veteran back to having 3 charges of revenge but only being single target; added the ability of dealing a Powerful Attack to people who attack you while on alert

dense oriole
subtle marsh
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Deputy is already really strong

glacial shadow
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This feels fair
Vigi: Simple but punished for misfire (Kills a town and loses charges)
Dep: A less risky vigi, but cannot be sure if they hit defense or if their target is town
Trick: Gives town a way to come back if evils are doing too well, but will be pretty weak early on
Vet: Still punishes evils for attacking/visiting a TK, but not as punishing as current

subtle marsh
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that's bringing it to te levels of strength

dense oriole
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I like the funny daykill

subtle marsh
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not to lore balance but I would probably rename wounded for the sake of it being very silly to not know about (that way it's mechanically the same)

glacial shadow
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Someone give me a word idk

dense oriole
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Rename it Wary Antics

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"Become Wary of anyone who visits you"

glacial shadow
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Is it wary or weary

dense oriole
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Naming it Wound sort of gets contextualized as "removing the ability to kill" and also would imply that one Vet can kill a player that went into another player's Alert

glacial shadow
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Wary doesn't look right

subtle marsh
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trickster is just barber

dense oriole
subtle marsh
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at that point just add barber

glacial shadow
subtle marsh
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I agree with most of these

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Veteran and vigi

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trickster is barber so that's fine-ish

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I don't agree with buffing deputy though

dense oriole
subtle marsh
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that role is genuinely game winning already

subtle marsh
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but it's funny

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you give people haircuts

glacial shadow
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No one knows what to do with trick to make it not a TP/TK hybrid and most people seem to like barber so might as well just slap barber on trickster

subtle marsh
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I wouldn't say nobody

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there's a perfectly good rework

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that just allows you to instantly unleash

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you mirror one player and unleash onto another

dense oriole
subtle marsh
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the same night

glacial shadow
subtle marsh
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that's so busted

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oh it's 1 shot now

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nvm

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It's still really good

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like now deputy is climbing to top 3 town roles probably

dense oriole
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All that does is fixes its interaction with Illu and non-NP Neutrals really

glacial shadow
subtle marsh
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so now trickster is fakable

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at all times

dense oriole
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IIRC Parceval was the first to suggest that a while back

subtle marsh
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which a majority of town roles aren't

subtle marsh
glacial shadow
dense oriole
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Your post

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You know that one scene in Kung Fu Panda 2 where Po does that one move with the Cannonball?

glacial shadow
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What when he catches it and throws it back?

glacial shadow
subtle marsh
glacial shadow
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Because if it stops the attack it still has the problem of being a TP/TK hybrid

subtle marsh
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yes it's still tp-ish

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and that's not really a problem

dense oriole
subtle marsh
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it's still giving kill power to town

dense oriole
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2 charges in his suggestion is crazy though

subtle marsh
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2 charges lol

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that is really bad as we have tested with regular trickster

dense oriole
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The suggestion was back when Trick was limited charges

subtle marsh
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trickster is a strong role

subtle marsh
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that's actually wild

dense oriole
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Yeah lol

subtle marsh
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trickster is a strong role right now with infinite

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I don't know if instant unleashes is a buff or nerf

dense oriole
glacial shadow
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Buff because it means it can protect and attack twice in a row

dense oriole
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Especially if it removed the "you were attacked but a Magic Mirror absorbed the attack!" Confirmation message

subtle marsh
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100% it would

glacial shadow
# glacial shadow
poll_question_text

Should Veteran lose all remaining charges of Avenge when they fail?

victor_answer_votes

5

total_votes

7

victor_answer_id

2

victor_answer_text

No

victor_answer_emoji_name

❌

glacial shadow
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TK changes

wintry coral
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Flagger from wolvesville does sound fun

safe briar
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“Dep being a close second”
> buffs deputy

untold hinge
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Vigi- needs to be 1-shot for the purpose of design space. The issue is as follows:
Any "vigi should be 2 shots" argument works off the opinion that 3 shots is too much (which I hard agree with). However, if you want the other tks to actually kill at night, they need to have something over vigilante. Since vigilante is the easiest and most simplistic, the other TKs need to have a higher shot count (ignoring deputy, but daykill bad), and that higher shot count is 3. As such, vigi should be 1 shot.
Deputy-Daykill bad
Trickster-Still can't reliably kill
Veteran-Still can't reliably kill

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Wow my typing sucks on mobile

modest jackal
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I think Wary should be a gained charge.

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And you could direct it to someone.

brittle ocean
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I like everything except veteran I think

modest jackal
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Erm... Are you tryna joke with us?

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Worst idea I've ever heard.

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Basically Deputy gets infinite charges and is able to auto confirm itself

cloud yoke
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you didnt have to state it so rudely

wintry coral
# modest jackal Erm... Are you tryna joke with us?

I don't mean infinite times, Its only the first time if they miss they'll gain one more bullet but can't shoot the same day, if they miss again they won't gain another one. If from the first time they shot successfully they don't gain another bullet that's it.

modest jackal