Remove Stalemate Endings

[golden walrus]

Basically, where the game would stalemate, the winner is determined by a priority list.

Why?

Some alignments shouldn't be able to stall out the game against another.

Examples:

Town should not be able to stall out coven (e.g., a Town Protective chain vs 2 Coven who can't break it).
Coven shouldn't be able to stall out NK (e.g., Witch forcing Arsonist to self-douse, or Coven Leader versus Shroud).

Is this just a 🩹 fix?

Certain interactions are definitely unhealthy and should be handled in isolation, but this doesn't add layered complexity. It's a healthy standard that will make sure we’re covered for anything unforeseen or that might come up down the line.

Example Ordering:

Order should be at least NK > Coven > Town, but for the sake of completion I made a full list (up for debate idc beyond the three):

1. Neutral Killing (in reverse order of who is most likely to be stalled, also up for debate: Werewolf before Arsonist before Serial Killer before Shroud).
2. Jackal
3. Neutral Apocalypse
4. Vampire
5. Coven
6. Town

[maiden stirrup]

No I think having the game draw is fine, draws are good, and dont forget NE only wins

[golden walrus]

Kill everyone for draw

Cowards

[steel sigil]

But... Neither side can win? Why have a list like this?

[willow lantern]

witch allowing people to self should removed anyway
TP chaining can defeated with indestive protection
CL vs Shrouds... RIP yeah i got nothing poor shroud

[dawn yarrow]

tp chaining actually is not defeated by indecisive protectives

its just slightly mitigated

[clear adder]

Go my 3 person tp chain

[dawn yarrow]

true

roaming TP when

[lavish moon]

I’m not really against this since the draw conditions we have are incredibly stupid

The coven vs NK interactions in particular are so toxic

Why is one out of four coven the same power level as a NK

[dawn yarrow]

casuals probably idk

[golden walrus]

Apparently some still think it’s a bandaid, but really what is a bandaid? Are we not allowed to have safety nets? A bandaid really refers to adding and exceptions. Like turning off Veteran in TT hunt, it’s only done to avoid a broader issue.

Bloat and complexity are bad

This isn’t really bloat, and a very minor amount of complexity

[dawn yarrow]

i think NK should have priority over jackal

[lavish moon]

This doesn’t change the way people play

so idk

[dawn yarrow]

apoc also don't really suffer from stalemate endings due to the fact they have hydrogen bombs attached to them

[lavish moon]

yeah agreed

[golden walrus]

Fine by me, again order is very loose besides town, coven, NK

Most other draws are rare anyway

[lavish moon]

Apoc is arbitrary lol

[golden walrus]

Very rare

[dawn yarrow]

you can't even stall as apoc without not doing your ability

[lavish moon]

Necromancer with Cleric. Seems fair and balanced.

[golden walrus]

Technically very technically possible if you get the entire town killed except for someone and a SC or warlock very early

[lavish moon]

SC never draws

[dawn yarrow]

death wins

[golden walrus]

D3 have two WWs rampage themselves and the rest of the players out of existence

[lavish moon]

neither does warlock

[dawn yarrow]

so that is arbitrary

[golden walrus]

Oh can SC not draw?

[lavish moon]

Yeah because that would be bs

draw timer doesn’t start until day 8

[clear adder]

Clearly we need to perform advanced analysis on this so teams mode can't end in a draw

[golden walrus]

Oh didn’t know that

[dawn yarrow]

ok

Win priority
Blue team
Red team
Yellow team

[lavish moon]

Fun fact: Amne SC can draw

which applies in ONE mode only

[golden walrus]

Still technically possible… if you get like bers, baker, kill everyone but three crusaders and give none of them plague, now you have an invite stall chain 🔥 🔥 🔥

[lavish moon]

wow, what a deep and critical analysis on such a sophisticated mode

[golden walrus]

A triple crus chain can technically get themselves into a stall with 3 apoc

[dawn yarrow]

true!

[lavish moon]

what’s weird is at that point town deserves it

[golden walrus]

Programs don’t really like it when you say “nah that won’t happen don’t worry about it” so I include everything in the list for technicality (choosing not to handle something is still a choice)

[lavish moon]

but from a gameplay standpoint evils deserve it

btw this change also makes NPs truly equal to the faction they are showcasing

Since before NPs were stronger than the evil faction since they win in draws

[golden walrus]

Oh cool..?

[dawn yarrow]

what

what changes

[golden walrus]

Can’t edit post well on mobile I’ll fix the order later

[dawn yarrow]

close and reopen discord makes it unshit itself

discord is totally a functional app with no flaws

especially on mobile

[golden walrus]

Nothing changes but town can’t not lose and have NP win

Since town can’t draw

[dawn yarrow]

actually why is town even on the list if they lose to any evil

[clear adder]

The secret second good faction

[golden walrus]

If you draw as town with no evils you win 🔥 🔥

[dawn yarrow]

the evil town traitor watching in horror as town autowins

in 1v1

[golden walrus]

Just including everything for full coverage

[golden walrus]

TT would count as their OG faction in this case though TT does its own timer thing

[dawn yarrow]

what if its a TT neutral killer

[golden walrus]

That’s a thing…?

[dawn yarrow]

yes

[lavish moon]

tbh, role bloat is the only reason this is a problem

[dawn yarrow]

town CS/ NK and TT amne

[lavish moon]

witch is such a dumb role

[dawn yarrow]

do players count as alignment or role

[golden walrus]

I guess if you used this ruleset you wouldn’t technically need TT timer unless you were trying to end the game early

Since TT winning is just the default

That’s cool

[dawn yarrow]

does arsonist coroner win against town serial killer

[golden walrus]

TT hunt just becomes “3 days until draw, move it”

[lavish moon]

Yeah

because an arsonist exists

and NK takes prio

[dawn yarrow]

but the arsonist is dead.

[lavish moon]

The faction isn’t dead

[dawn yarrow]

infact, the arsonist barbequed themselves while igniting

[lavish moon]

only the role

[dawn yarrow]

yeah, hence the question i asked

[golden walrus]

I figure just leave it as the OG factions. If you somehow end with a freaky town has NK and NK has town stall then too bad, OG NK deserves it anyway

[lavish moon]

It should always be faction based

Reason 1: WS is town sided as fuuuuck

[golden walrus]

Yeah

[lavish moon]

Reason 2: The system implies factions

If it was MY game it would be role based

[golden walrus]

That’s it we’re making an all-roles tier list to decide exactly who wins when the game stalls

[dawn yarrow]

coroner is the first to autowin 🔥

[sharp cypress]

I was JUST about to say that

[lavish moon]

Amnesiac wins over everything

[sharp cypress]

Dreamweaver is the 2nd 🔥

[clear adder]

Arso after burning the town to a 1v1: LETS GO I WON
The humble coroner:

[golden walrus]

Arsonist is dreamwoven that’s why he can’t ignite the coro

Thank you autocorrect

[lavish moon]

Oh yeah reason 3: Town doesn’t deserve the win if they swap with evils because that’s bs!!

[golden walrus]

Yeah

Also it makes TT hunt consistent with normal game rules with is awesome

With the exception of pandora winning in non pandora double TT games which is already a weird decision

[lavish moon]

Yeah you no longer need tt hunt lmao

Evils will just win at a standstill

I’m fine with that tbh, the only issue is it might take like 9 players until the tt dies

[golden walrus]

Random thought but pois should just not be allowed to smog with book right?

No other coven can use their utility solo

[sharp cypress]

Potion Master

[golden walrus]

Forgot

[lavish moon]

Allows claimbagging

which for Poisoner is stupid

pois should be utility

[sharp cypress]

The best part of the game of course 🔥

[lavish moon]

The idea of claimbags can work

[dawn yarrow]

poisoner can't attack & smog

so its fine

[lavish moon]

they just need to have a tell

[golden walrus]

Just pass book, if your solo I don’t think you should be able to claimbag

[lavish moon]

Idk you never know

I used to like smog but lately i’m kinda mixed about it

it feels like the percept issue in reverse

[sharp cypress]

Smog is similar I suppose

Your main ability is almost always better, except maybe on N1

[lavish moon]

Smog blocks tplo

then you rb from then on

Invest percepted tplo

then you investigate from then on

[warm thunder]

What a way to put it

[willow lantern]

"bandaid" = "quick fix that doesn't achieve much in the long term"

now for unrelated reason i will post a emoji

[golden walrus]

It standardizes TT hunt which is awesome

TT hunt is just accelerated draw

You could do TT hunt with cursed souls

It patches multiple mechanics together 🔥 🔥 🔥

So in a way it reduces complexity

[dawn yarrow]

wild?

[golden walrus]

Making forced draws as a concept not work isn’t really a bandaid imo.

In a game with this much potential complexity

Saying “let’s just design all roles so you’ll never end in a stalemate” is quite a complex demand

[willow lantern]

fuckin hell

[willow lantern]

fair

[golden walrus]

This is such an 🟰 suggestion

[dawn yarrow]

smh thats the maximum of emojis allowed

[golden walrus]

What are some historical bandaid examples

First thing that comes to my mind is always turning off vet in TT hunt

[dawn yarrow]

dep being unique

[willow lantern]

pros becoming marshal 2

because "marshal was too broken"

so they just mega buffed pros

[dawn yarrow]

i do not think that was intended as a bandage solution

[willow lantern]

that shit was awful

it seems like it

i mean think about it

why else would they do that

[dawn yarrow]

to buff an incredibly weak role?

[lavish moon]

Pros had no identity outside “town leader” in season 1

[dawn yarrow]

not as a bandage?

[dawn yarrow]

vanilla prosecutor

[lavish moon]

it had no practical use

[golden walrus]

I’d says that’s overtuning not bandaging

It’s a separate issue

[lavish moon]

Pros is broken asf

you pros coven, you are conf not tt

and you get tribunal basically

in ranked it’s just L evil*2

This is kinda why I want ranked to move to 10v4v1

So they don’t need to overtune roles

[golden walrus]

Anyway, opinion I wanted to present was that bandaid solutions are layered complexity (turning off only vet in TT hunt, making deputy randomly unique, camouflage lol, jester being illusioned, chatterbox)

And I tried to design this in a way that takes the place if an existing mechanic, so there’s reconstruction but not another layer or exception

[lavish moon]

Yeah I’m kinda tired of people pushing things off as bandaids

if there is no core issue and more of a direct problem, bandaids are necessary

the core issue in this case is coven roles being poorly designed and basically designed in a void

[golden walrus]

I think that due to the lack of layered complexity there’s no bandage cost to working this along with other more specific fixes