Lookout and Trapper Nerfs - Loons

[kind marsh]

Lookout

If more than three players visit your target, you do not learn who visited.

Your target was too crowded to determine who visited!
-# Rewording would be greatly appreciated.

Trapper

You only learn one role that visits your target.

Optional: You will know if more visits, but not what they are.
More people visited your target, but your Trap couldn't identify their roles.

Why?

Nerfs / / combinations.

[plush peak]

finally loonie a good post

you haven't done one in a while

yeah i fully agree to this

[kind marsh]

im iffy on LO

not sure if they should still learn some visitors

like TOS1

[proud sundial]

No more LO claims as wildling

[kind marsh]

Wildling could still claim LO

[proud sundial]

Risky

[kind marsh]

not really

if you know 4+ ppl visited, just say too many people visited

[proud sundial]

Oh yea forgot abt that

[kind marsh]

pb can do the same

[proud sundial]

Boo i cant find things to complain about

Take my 👍

[kind marsh]

new meta: All Coven members visit CK target

[rotund rivet]

I think Lookout should be 3 or more people rather than > 3

Seeing 3 people is still 1/5th of the lobby

[kind marsh]

well you should still receive info

[rotund rivet]

You would

Seeing 2 people is still pretty big

[proud sundial]

TPLO:

[kind marsh]

3 sounds better

[rotund rivet]

That is the point yes

[proud sundial]

3 is fine

[kind marsh]

also makes it so a 4 player faction needs to all visit the same target each night to hinder LO

[rotund rivet]

to nerf tplo

[proud sundial]

It barely works anyway

Why does it need a nerf

[rotund rivet]

Nerfing lookout nerfs toll

TPLO

[kind marsh]

wow really?

[proud sundial]

And this nerf is already good enough

[kind marsh]

thats like

the whole point

[rotund rivet]

ig its just a side thing rather than the main point

[rotund rivet]

Lookout would still be better than like half the tis

[kind marsh]

You decided to Watch @5 tonight.
Too many people visited your target!

@5 died last night.

[rotund rivet]

• seeing more than 1 person makes you a better tracker

[proud sundial]

Its not that big of a thing

[kind marsh]

[proud sundial]

Every TI is better than coroner/sheriff

[rotund rivet]

Congrats coven used 3 players to visit the same target

[kind marsh]

LO would see the 3 players if it was only 3 players

[rotund rivet]

no

[kind marsh]

it has to be 4

or more

to hide the visitors

[rotund rivet]

I was assuming you said that to refute >= 3

[kind marsh]

yea Spy wouldnt be changed as you only see evil visits

[proud sundial]

Spy's fine yeah

[rotund rivet]

Spy is still weaker than coroner/sheriff

[proud sundial]

https://tenor.com/view/bait-fish-this-is-bait-gif-11212449

[kind marsh]

Investigator just needs to lose Murder

and give it to Coroner

Trespassing is already powerful

[rotund rivet]

Or yknow you can tell me why spy’s so fine

[proud sundial]

It can find non CK coven

Other TI's just find tres/sus

Coroner also cant because its only on killers

[rotund rivet]

It can tell which coven roles are in play

If they visit one of the bugs

[rotund rivet]

Only if they’re silent

Because some are loud

You can only reliably detect wilding/poisoner

Would you rather find the evil player or know what evil role is in play

[proud sundial]

[rotund rivet]

Doesn’t exist in half the lists of btos2

[proud sundial]

[rotund rivet]

Even then what are you going to do with this info

[proud sundial]

[proud sundial]

Know that said role exists

[rotund rivet]

Cool, you know your demise is incoming

What now

[proud sundial]

Can also conf you as spy

If said evil you found dies/gets hung

[little field]

you can still figure out what is in play without a spy

[proud sundial]

[rotund rivet]

Yknow what else confirms you?

Sheriff
N1 - 6 SUSP

6 was wilding

[proud sundial]

What does that have to do with anything

Thats not related to spy

[rotund rivet]

It’s literally what I’m talking about

Sheriff > Spy

[little field]

any evil can run around screaming evil roles are in play

[kind marsh]

i once had ww become conf sheriff in ranked iirc

[little field]

especially the factional evils who know exactly which of them is in play

[rotund rivet]

WP by the werewolf

[kind marsh]

they tracked the dreamweaver

and called them sus

[rotund rivet]

They used their tools to fake a role

Which is good

[kind marsh]

something only ww can do

although poorly

[rotund rivet]

what’s the point

[kind marsh]

idk

[rotund rivet]

@little field what do you think about lookout

[little field]

?

[proud sundial]

..its to benefit town

Not evils

Idk what your arguing here

[little field]

i think the LO cap should be more than 2 visits

[little field]

“to conf yourself as spy”

it actually doesnt

[proud sundial]

Fair point

Still can soft-confirm though

Just not fully conf as town

[haughty meteor]

imo Lookout should still see some visitors tos1 style, seeing literally nobody would feel kinda awful

rest of the suggestions great tho

[rotund rivet]

Problematic because of RNG

If 3+ players visit the book kill

There is now a random chance of if you catch the killer or not

[haughty meteor]

maybe add a priority system then? either prioritise harmful visits or the opposite?

[rotund rivet]

Still has other issues

Basically the same thing, except non harmful visits

Also: who’s confirmed will differ

For example:
1 calls tplo
2 3 4 5 visit
6 is an evil who claims to visit
Whoever is seen is confirmed, while the last person isn’t because an evil player is saying they visited as well

[tender stream]

This is to prevent cheese

The meta is still the meta but it’s much harder to confirm who is who now

This situation still implies that 4+ HAVE visited.

[keen terrace]

I really dont like this

mainly the Trapper part

the LO part is fine

[tender stream]

You’re right, the cap for trapper to see roles should be 0 visitors.

[carmine tide]

Trapper should get no roles. Maybe just say “someone visited” and idk damage the trap. Second visit breaks it. Less info but better traps.

Lookout is fine for now tbh

I don’t like turning it off is a better solution than the current state

[tender stream]

I think the goal is to nerf LO/Spy

And honestly, fuck it. Why not?

[carmine tide]

New lookout fake

Just keep saying too crowded

🔥 🔥 🔥

[keen terrace]

Trapper (Nerf)

Trap :

• No longer reveal roles when triggered by a non-harmful visit.
• Now reveal roles when triggered by an Harmful visit.
• Reveals from Traps are affected by Frames.

I like my trapper nerf better ngl

[carmine tide]

Sounds fine

[tender stream]

This is actually really difficult to fake

[carmine tide]

Wasn’t serious

[tender stream]

You’re implying over half the town was on your target including yourself

[carmine tide]

Technically spy/lookout isn’t mass confirmation as long as you send one evil that way. But I guess that’s not always practical..?

[tender stream]

that’s like 5/14 people

[tender stream]

this is smart counterplay if it doesn’t backfire

if it does then you just made the combo even worse

for evils

[carmine tide]

if they say “everyone visit” and everyone does, they learn nothing except for who visits and who doesn’t. If they ask half of the town to visit, say all even numbers, this does narrow things for them, but now half the town skips out of the continuation. Less people is better info with less counter play, but slower.

I don’t think this is a priority over all

But I don’t really care that much if they do it

[tender stream]

Combine this with the dummy visiting suggestion

[carmine tide]

What

[marble locust]

#1354351647719034981

[carmine tide]

I guess. I would make using an ability a toggle at that point for non town.

[kind marsh]

like this term

hold on

[tender stream]

:crowded

[carmine tide]

[kind marsh]

it just sounds better

its too crowded so you cant tell who visited

[carmine tide]

“More than 3 players visited your target, it is too crowded!”

[kind marsh]

also i consider this more of a rework

[kind marsh]

"Too many people visited your target, it's too crowded to pick anyone out!"

i also like not specifying the amount of visitors, allows lying,

wait

"Your target was too crowded to determine who visited!"

[tender stream]

how does that encouarge lying?

just memorize the mechanic

don’t punish the noobs

[kind marsh]

if it said "Too many people visited your target, but you counted X people!", you'd be able to figure out someone is lying about their visit

also make LO seem dumb, they skipped math class

🔥

[tender stream]

oh that’s what you meant

[kind marsh]

yeah

[tender stream]

Being told it’s >3 is redundant

you know this already

[kind marsh]

i just like being told you dont know how to fucking count

[tender stream]

it just helps new players

[keen terrace]

Its just swapping the proc con of the reveal and making it not ignore frames

rn this still runs into the issue of trapper gaining value from failing their job

[kind marsh]

well this is just an information nerf

not reworking how it works

[pearl sundial]

this is just a knowledge check?

unnecesary knowledge check

[tender stream]

They meant not specifying the exact amount of visitors

:Crowded would fix this issue

[pearl sundial]

that is a unnecesary knowledge check

unless you add a tag

that is just a knowledge check

[tender stream]

yeah just add a keyword

simple

[rain viper]

If Wildling gets 3 players, he can just say "Whoops 3 people showed up I cant report anything"

[crisp sigil]

We love a good newbie trap

[kind marsh]

remember when UO became a thing

[halcyon matrix]

@kind marsh has leveled up! (74 ➜ 75)

[kind marsh]

"I was starbound"

[rain viper]

bro you were supposed to forget that

[kind marsh]

b- but

Starbound

[marble locust]

I was Starbound - Mayor

[neon hill]

I think Lookout overloading works better if the cap is 2 rather than 3

3 is still far too much information to give in most games

The Trapper one is bad because its rng

There are far better ways to do it.

Though I do like the intent behind this, I can't out of good conscience upvote this post due to those catches

[kind marsh]

The cap is 3 to limit visit dumping (intentionally triggering the too many players message to hide visitors).
If it was 2, all you'd need is 3 of your faction to visit the same player to attack undetected.
With the cap being 3, you'd need your entire faction to do so and thats also if you don't have a Wildling. This makes your faction members have to sacrifice actually using their abilities to hinder town, and instead just fuck over Lookout.
With a cap of 2, one faction member can go about as normal while the rest pile onto the CK target.

which isnt ideal

[rotund rivet]

not really

That’s still only 1 faction member using their ability

It’s much more efficient to have 3 coven members do something

• you can always run into TP anyway

[neon hill]

Interference is expensive

[crisp sigil]

me when Hex Voodoo and Potion Master all visit the same target each night (they will never get caught)

[kind marsh]

hence why its capped at 3

[crisp sigil]

wait I didnt bump this who tf bumped this

[kind marsh]

idk who bumped it

[crisp sigil]

ghost bump

[kind marsh]

it was curtis

!!!

[past dock]

Why is this here

[crisp sigil]

someone bumped https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1252001920797900810 too but if I respond to it they're gonna think it was me

[past dock]

and why is there like 5 other posts that got revived

[crisp sigil]

what the hell

CURTIS REWORKS CONFIRMED ! ! ! !

[little field]

who keeps bumping shit while im not looking 😭

[tender stream]

i think it’s that person who was on the cont planning thread

all of their messages are gone now

[past dock]

who’s that

[little field]

i don’t think they are here anymore

did they bump shit and get banned / leave

[tender stream]

yeah they just left/got banned somehow

[past dock]

wait who is it like a spam account