#Jackal Rework

157 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

wary swift
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Aims to improve the last iteration of it by cleaning up the rough edges of https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1333653047003320320

Jackal - Neutral Special

Attack: None Defense: Basic
Abilities
Recruit two players
Support your recruits

Assassinate

Visit a player at night
If Both Recruits are alive, You have No Attack, and this isn't a harmful visit
If One Recruit is alive, you have a Basic Attack
If both Recruits are dead, you have a Powerful Attack

Support (2, Special)

Target yourself and give both Recruits and yourself Powerful defense and Illusion them for the night
You will know who got attacked if you protected them, they will know you saved them
This is not a visit

Recruits (Passive)

Two players of opposing alignment will have their Win Condition matched to yours
If the last Jackal Aligned player alive is a Recruit they will leave Town in defeat
Solo Apocalypses, Neutral Killings (Not Compliance) and Horsemen of the Apocalypse will ignore this and stay in Town
You will all know each-other and who has which role

Attributes

You win when all players who would oppose you are dead
You may multitask your abilities
You have Detection Immunity

Roleicon_Jackal.png
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Proposed Buff:

  • The day after using Support, your first whisper to either Recruit is hidden and Wildlings cannot overhear it
    (Vote with 👍 or 👎)
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.

rose wedge
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I like the support idea

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The stuff under Recruits though

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Is more questionable

wary swift
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why?

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keeping the jackal hidden is downright negative utility and helps town since recruits can accidently eliminate the evil they are working for

rose wedge
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The 2nd clause is confusing

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As recs are life-linked

wary swift
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if the last one standing is a non NK/ solo apoc recruit, they flee in defeat

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two recs dying N1 is already bad as it is

rose wedge
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ah

wary swift
foggy pewter
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Why would they leave town when they can still gaslight their way to victory?

wary swift
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either way its a better system than current recruit suicide

foggy pewter
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Technically they can still win.

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Against coven.

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Yeah give each faction ways of striking back against recs. (Only at the end where it’s just the OG faction of the recruit and the recruit)

wary swift
rose wedge
wary swift
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kill the jackal and the other recruit and they're gone

rose wedge
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Also how does Coven kill the Jackal outside of Conj and Rit if they don't have maj

foggy pewter
wary swift
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or the other recruit

next terrace
rose wedge
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You'd have to make it "They ran away!" but yeah

next terrace
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It would just be one sentence "And ran away" if you needed to do that

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Grammar

rose wedge
next terrace
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Yup

rose wedge
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Jester message got changed from TOS 1 to TOS 2 so say "their revenge" instead of "his revenge"

next terrace
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Also yup

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I didn't save it, but "and ran away" in a singular sentence is grammatically better

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if you are actually putting that in the game I would change it that way personally, but I am not Tuba

jade notch
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Jackal gameplay that isn't straight ass

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We take these

worthy mason
sweet inlet
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watch jackals lose because a rec dc'd and the jackal was already dead so the other rec leaves in defeat

next terrace
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Why would that not transfer over

sweet inlet
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ik moiler

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but thats not specified here

next terrace
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I mean, you could ask him to enumerate that specifically but I would assume Lagspikes implied it wouldn't be taken away

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yeah

sweet inlet
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meh maybe im being pedantic

next terrace
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No worries man

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It's just a bit hard for me to pick up sometimes

sweet inlet
next terrace
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Oops!

sweet inlet
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oops, all sixes

wary swift
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the recruit dc system would apply here because well

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people can reconnect (I think?)

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and yeah, it would be unfair

sweet inlet
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kk that seems good then

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i already upvoted this long ago but that specifically came in my head today so

untold torrent
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When you imply solo Apocalypse, you're refering to both the acolytes and horsemen correct?

wary swift
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and by solo apoc i mean when the acolytes spawn solo and gain defense (Closest thing to NA so like whatever)

median granite
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Too strong

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Fun but absolute pain for anyone else in the game

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So no

next terrace
median granite
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For “everyone else”?

next terrace
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yeah

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well

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anyone else

median granite
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The fact that it’s significantly stronger??

next terrace
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Jackal wins the least in JR, no?

median granite
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I don’t know

next terrace
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Coven has the highest winrate

median granite
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This would probably boost the winrate by a ridiculous amount

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Feels that way to me

next terrace
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Because you can heal and illusion your recruits?

median granite
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Yes and the fact that it seems implied if one recruit dies he gets his attack and the other lives??

next terrace
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Feels like that wouldn't come into play too often, but it would make "safe" checks less hard confirmed. Make players more dependent on social reads and claims instead of "sheriff check ✅ " good

next terrace
median granite
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No??? Lmao???

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If one rec dies so does the other??

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What game are you playing sir

next terrace
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No, it doesn't.

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Not in case of disconnections

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and also horsemen, (and in this suggestion NK)

median granite
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Mfw the town coro recruit DCs and now recs get 2kp

next terrace
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Yeah, that is how it works right now

median granite
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Shouldn’t balance around DCs or throwing EVERYTHING

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For apoc. You have an APOC you don’t need basic attack.

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Never ever ever should DCing be a strategy

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Whether it’s technically allowed or not

next terrace
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You will get leaverbustered for it.

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so dont do it.

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simple

median granite
next terrace
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Why are you so angry all the time?

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I'm just answering the questions.

median granite
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We shouldn’t stick a bandaid onto a team whenever one of their teammates quit. That makes it technically, from a gameplay perspective, a potentially viable strategy. Not only is your killer not lifelinked but you get another at the cost of one teammate.

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You should never incentivize behavior that isn’t allowed

next terrace
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This is how it works presently though

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That's all I'm sayin'.

median granite
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You don’t get an attack

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You get your lifelink severed which from some perspective could technically be advantageous in some scenarios, but it’s probably worth it in that case

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Don’t double their kill power for someone leaving

next terrace
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If one recruit dies, the other recruit is dealt an unstoppable attack and you get the ability to start killing people with powerful attacks. (If there's a disconnect, no unstoppable attack happens, and if your other rec is a horsemen, he survives it because he can't die.)

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Lagspikes actually nerfs the disconnect/horsemen interaction here by replacing it with a basic attack unless I'm misreading something

smoky smelt
wary swift
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its a basic attack until the jackal is the last one standing

wary swift
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if a recruit is the last one standing they mechanically die

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unless they are a horseman or solo role, which the jackals should gain value out of for them being solo operatives

wary swift
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disconnections already skew the game and the jackals lost 1/3 of their faction because someone disconnected

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would it be fair for jackal to not be able to compensate for that by making up by being able to start killing

brazen minnow
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Wait a sec

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This is broken asf

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How do people not realize this

wary swift
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?

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mind explaining?

brazen minnow
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Jackals potentially get two kills per night by sacking the town recruit

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Before they had to play much more social

wary swift
brazen minnow
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Not only that but the recruit ignores bgs and traps in the early game, which is not something small.

wary swift
brazen minnow
wary swift
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if it makes you feel better i can just change it to “register as town to TI”

brazen minnow
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That’s still very unnecessary

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Part of being evil is blending in yourself and trying not to attract attention

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Now suddenly you counter like every TI except for tracker/LO

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I think recs are balanced, it’s just the jackal itself that needs a change so that it’s not a sitting duck

wary swift
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recruits are not balanced

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mfw the whole game depends on the recruits not dying before day 3 ends

median granite
# wary swift im not balancing around tactical disconnecting (a thing you get banned for)

You can't just say "im not balancing around ___" to something players have control over.

Correct: I am not going to provide any pittance for when ___, as this is not an in-game decision and I will not provide an advantage for it.
Bad: I do not care whether or not ___ provides an advantage because I said "pretty please don't do that"

We already know from TT hunt that everyone does whatever it takes to win. That's why they had to mechanically DISABLE veteran to prevent town from forming a line and walking into their own execution.

And since you later clarified lifelink is removed, you don't even need a tactical DC, you could kill your own recruit to double your team's kill power.

These are two separate issues with this.

brazen minnow
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They are better overall than NKs in terms of early game swing

median granite
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"Guys there's an issue with this rework"
"deal with it lmao"

next terrace
brazen minnow
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True, it’s still kinda silly that the town recruit is hella expendable

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Even if that means the jackal dying is a loss

median granite
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I didn't know this was already how the mechanic worked, and I am surprised that so few people abuse this. Regardless, this doesn't change the fact that this rework provides in-game ways to do this. Town recruit can just go full Jester and get themselves hung to double their KPow at the cost of 1/3 of their members.

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And, yes, I do think giving jackal kill power for a tactical DC is a bad decision even if it's not often abused.

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Recruit coroner the moment the game starts:

next terrace
# brazen minnow True, it’s still kinda silly that the town recruit is hella expendable

I think that's actually a decent concern in a vacuum but at the end of the day,

A: Town recs are not the most useful anyway all things considered, but they help by manipulation and voting
B: You'll find that getting 1/3rd of your team killed day 2 is actually a quick and easy way to getting a town win. You have no guarantee that the Coven rec can steal book, and with two people running around shooting each other, it ain't good.

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Jackal already requires enforcing "house rules" like "Yes, recs are not really coven but you cannot just randomly out your whole coven in public" to work.

brazen minnow
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You’re still adding kp to the game for the semi-informed minority

next terrace
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1 kill.

brazen minnow
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The can make a huge difference in the game

next terrace
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Honestly, Jackal is often the first to die regardless.

sly skiff
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Ooh, this is an interesting change! Gives the Jackal more to do other than sit around, that's for sure

median granite
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what

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what's with all the posts being raised from the dead