#Nerf Disguise to 1 Charge.

723 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

weary sapphire
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It's been very clear from my experience that 2 charges of Disguise is busted and never should have been added in the first place.

As of now, Disguise is balanced as if its a deceptive ability when, in reality, it's a hard protective ability with deception elements baked into it. Hard protective abilities should not be this potent without a stricter charge limit; being able to completely remove accountability for all your previous actions simply by clicking a button at night, as well as possessing every single usecase Alterate has, is only remotely fine if it's kept at a single charge.

Please take away SK's secret stash of steroids. It's not fun to deal with for anyone and gives SK far too many get-out-of-jail-free cards that's most definitely not comparable to the ideal state of NK balance.

latest.png
drifting gazelle
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Having played reworked SK, the two charge jumps arent as busted as it looks

weary sapphire
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The btos2 devs on their way to make Serial Killer a demigod after giving Wildling literal doo-doo on a plate in the same update:

drifting gazelle
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Like realistically speaking

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You disguise N2 and keep the last disguise for late game

weary sapphire
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Compare SK to every other NK

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And try answering that question again

drifting gazelle
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Powerwise, WW / Arso are stronger

weary sapphire
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I understand NK suck

dense condor
weary sapphire
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But SK is crazy busted compared to even a hypothetically balanced NK

drifting gazelle
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Arso can hide easily

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WW got a free rampage every other night

dense condor
weary sapphire
dense condor
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to where its not even funny to compare the two

drifting gazelle
weary sapphire
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If you dont hang them the very same day you even cast an ounce of suspicion on them

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They're gone again

drifting gazelle
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yeah thats the point

weary sapphire
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Jumping is fine, but having a second out afterwards is not

drifting gazelle
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SK is supposed to be a threat

weary sapphire
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Not to mention the forging aspect

dense condor
weary sapphire
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You can do everything an Ench does and more

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And have we forgotten about the POWERFUL ATTACK

drifting gazelle
weary sapphire
drifting gazelle
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You want to jump into confirmed townies

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who would not have basic def to begin with

weary sapphire
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I agree with you actually Parc

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Dreamweaver is meant to be a threat too, right

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Let's give it an ability that insomnias every town member after a night

drifting gazelle
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Coven should be weaker than NK by design

weary sapphire
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For the entire game

weary sapphire
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let's allow it to rampage at 3 people's homes every full moon

drifting gazelle
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NK should have a powerful ability that is offset by the fact they are solo

weary sapphire
drifting gazelle
weary sapphire
dense condor
drifting gazelle
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Shroud / SK are the Deception NK

weary sapphire
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I see where your fallacy lies, Parc

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Parceval

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Disguise

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Is NOT a deception ability

drifting gazelle
weary sapphire
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It is a PROTECTIVE ability with deceptive elements.

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You're treating it as if its on the same axis as frame or mirage

drifting gazelle
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Its not meant to be a protective ability

weary sapphire
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No no no

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It prevents the Sk from being lynched at all

drifting gazelle
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its meant to be a way to deceive town into thinking you are one of them

weary sapphire
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Because they jump to a new body

weary sapphire
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No other deception ability can just

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Straight up prevent a player from being lynched

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Even if we look at Mirage Illusionist

drifting gazelle
weary sapphire
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Can a Mirage Illusionist click a button

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And suddenly

queen prairie
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Ret can find sk jumps, tracker can find you doing it

weary sapphire
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you cant lynch them

queen prairie
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roles have counterplay to this, regardless of how op it SEEMS

weary sapphire
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Is you pointing out horribly parasitic design meant to make your rhetoric better

drifting gazelle
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Only point you got in this whole argument is the powerful attack thingy

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Disguise would do fine with only basic

weary sapphire
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This is "Redeemer is balanced because it can be roleblocked" levels of rhetoric

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💀

drifting gazelle
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since realistically it only matter for other neutrals and mon / bg

queen prairie
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when there are roles that actively work against such things

weary sapphire
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What I'm saying is that a get out of jail free card which can be procced twice isn't healthy to give to an NK

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It's literally a main character ability

drifting gazelle
weary sapphire
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SK can pretend he's an Anime protag while everyone else has to suffer

drifting gazelle
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NK should be the big bad threats

weary sapphire
queen prairie
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SK is anime protag

drifting gazelle
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1 Charge would make SK the worst NK

weary sapphire
queen prairie
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before nerting the charges

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nerf the power of the attack

dense condor
queen prairie
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it already lost the ability to kill roleblockers

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and jailor

weary sapphire
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Please dont become so deluded as to believe NK are meant to carry with them the same equivalent power as an entire faction

drifting gazelle
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A good NK, by design, should have access to an ability that is powerful as a way to balance the teams

weary sapphire
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They're not meant to be factional replacements that happen to be solo

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They're meant to be

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Side threats

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Theres a reason NK are always put in games WITH AN EXISTING FACTION

drifting gazelle
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They are meant to be a threat to both coven and town

queen prairie
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NK's are for most purposes almost a faction in themself

dense condor
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lol

weary sapphire
queen prairie
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which is why everyone tarnation hates COMPLIANCE

drifting gazelle
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Again

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yall fail to see the obvious

dense condor
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the ability to kill each night theoretically balanced out the factions

drifting gazelle
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the entire coven can just jump on the SK because they hit immune

weary sapphire
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The obvious is that SK doesnt need double jumps to be strong

drifting gazelle
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SK doesnt register as town to anything

dense condor
drifting gazelle
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Invest find killers

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thats how they are different

weary sapphire
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However

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That's not possible now, is it

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The devs are opposed to making big changes like that

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So this is the only way to compromise

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We cant have oppressive NK like current SK be healthy

drifting gazelle
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Id like to see SK winrate

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Because from experience its not that great

queen prairie
weary sapphire
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From my experience its very powerful

queen prairie
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what you're suggesting is to tone back that overhaul because its not an overhaul, its a "comprimise"

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SK jumping is a role overhaul

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designed to make it fare better in situations like IYK

weary sapphire
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You can only lose by getting unlucky

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Which is an issue in itself, but that applies to literally every evil in the game

dense condor
weary sapphire
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Sure.

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But saying "oh but you might get found by a tracker" isnt justification for such a busted ability

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I can say that about literally everything

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"Um uh oh Witch might get found by a Tracker, so its super balanced and super fine to have in game"

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It's calling out a fundamentally parasitic line of thinking

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Double jump is busted

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Simple as that

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I don't care about the winrate

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It's unhealthy and needs to go

dense condor
weary sapphire
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Sure, NK need to live

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But double jumping is not the way to do it

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SK doesn't not get caught

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It gets caught, then fucking phases out of the jail cell and escapes into Mexico

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That's not fun to deal with at all

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It's only remotely fine if it can be done only once

dense condor
weary sapphire
dense condor
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go my arbitrary stat

dense condor
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as it is literally just sheriff proof and not anything else

manic quartz
# weary sapphire We love nostalgia bait

tbh its not as bad as other nostalgia baits like astral HM, other NKs get compensation for getting RB.

Counterattack on the otherhand, yeah thank god thats gone

dense condor
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( Seer)

weary sapphire
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Mfw Shroud gets "you can make a player kill for you" and SK gets "you can become any nonprotected confirmed player in the game and make your old actions completely unaccountable no matter how shit it was while also having every single usecase Alterate has and being able to kill other neutrals"

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(Clearly these two are the same power level)

queen prairie
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Shroud has always been considered the worst NK, even before this buff

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Shroud should've been buffed first imo

dense condor
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hi cattingslan

lapis osprey
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wrong

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shroud best nk in stats

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shroud had highest winrate

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next to arso

queen prairie
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you make a fair point

raw ore
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Shroud is a very powerful role, one time we barely didn't lose a 4 shroud game trollface

queen prairie
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detection immunity is important

lapis osprey
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no one knows why

dense condor
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it was arso shroud ww sk pre overhaul

lapis osprey
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i mean shroud's frames are pretty shit aswell lmao

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idk how shroud was second best

dense condor
lapis osprey
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no?

simple finch
dense condor
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yes

lapis osprey
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shroud just straight up frame

weary sapphire
lapis osprey
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unless the rolecard is wrong

queen prairie
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shroud isnt found by tracker/lookout/invest...(maybe?) which is why I think its highest winrate

dense condor
queen prairie
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which again

raw ore
queen prairie
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is why SK deserves to have that kind of thing too

lapis osprey
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it say it frames the target it shrouds

drifting gazelle
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... blossom

dense condor
drifting gazelle
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it frames them as shroud for the night

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thats all it deos

dense condor
queen prairie
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it frames them as "oh they killed this person" to a coroner

lapis osprey
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that's still a frame

dense condor
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it just makes them appear to be an attacker

queen prairie
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seer will find them friends

lapis osprey
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it's shit but uyeah

weary sapphire
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All I'm saying is that disguise needs 1 charge, not 2

lapis osprey
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hold up temp

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don't fucking group us with him

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😭

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💀

queen prairie
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"him"

weary sapphire
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I'm addressing Parc and Chasington

queen prairie
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the two people disagreeing with this

dense condor
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which are you and parc

queen prairie
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Disguise, at best on n2 or n3, is avoiding a TI finding you

lapis osprey
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@dense condor shroud still frames thou

queen prairie
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because most people are not hard conf n2 or n3

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and have tps if they are

lapis osprey
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it's a shitty frame and shroud needs so much more

dense condor
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it isn’t a proper frame

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it just makes them register as an attacker

raw ore
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I don't remember "I was found enemies because I was shrouded" ever happening

dense condor
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to BG and Trap

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(and well lookout)

dense condor
queen prairie
weary sapphire
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Do people not understand this

image.png
queen prairie
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I agree that disguise is a PROTECTION ability

weary sapphire
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Balancing Disguise as if its a deceptive ability first and foremost is stupid

dense condor
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it is a hard protective ability with some deceptive elements

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thats all it is

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you protect yourself by hiding

queen prairie
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ww has the ability to stay home and kill TI's, arso doesnt kill (or even show itself) and shroud avoids tracker/invest/lookout

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in comparison, what does sk get

dense condor
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you could just kill no one and lose your agency

queen prairie
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you arent getting caught

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if you kill no one

dense condor
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Arsonist is a stealth bomber until the end

dense condor
queen prairie
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you dont have murder n1 or n3 to an invest

dense condor
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or if you want to fucking kill someone and not rely on them visiting you

queen prairie
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trackers wont out you

lapis osprey
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nvm shroud only frames to invest

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fucking why?

queen prairie
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sk kills EVERY night and is found by EVERY TI (except sheriff ofc), and its only upside is basically killing rbers

dense condor
queen prairie
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but they removed that, so now it NEEDS to have some ability to survive

lapis osprey
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that also means i misunderstood shroud in IHWTOS2

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💀

raw ore
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Host error, boil blossom

queen prairie
dense condor
weary sapphire
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It has

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Disguise

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ONE CHARGE of it is enough

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if you cant get by on one charge, that says more about your capabilities as a bluffer and less about how it "needs 2"

dense condor
weary sapphire
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Its a literal skill issue

queen prairie
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"skill issue" mentioned

weary sapphire
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That's objectively not true

lapis osprey
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99% sure uhhh SK has 2 charges is because incase they jump into a coven

but here is an amazing idea
don't jump into a coven

queen prairie
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skill doesnt stop you from being found by EVERY TI (except sheriff)

weary sapphire
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Being the sole member of your faction means you have to play with diligence

dense condor
queen prairie
weary sapphire
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Become trusted during the day

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Through reads

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Through WORDS

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And TI WONT SEARCH YOU

queen prairie
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im saying other NK's have PASSIVE survivability

weary sapphire
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I cant remember the last time I was checked by a TI as evil that wasnt on N2

queen prairie
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disguise protects you for ONE NIGHT (unless you jump into a conf person)

weary sapphire
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Do you want to know why

dense condor
weary sapphire
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It's because I actually try to READ GOOD during the day

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And kill the TI at night

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It doesnt matter how mechanically vulnerable I am

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If you need 2 get out of jail free cards to play the game

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Maybe examine yourself

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Not the so-called "solution"

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it's just a crutch

dense condor
lapis osprey
weary sapphire
lapis osprey
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ww has passive survivablity?

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shroud has passive survibablity?

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what?

dense condor
queen prairie
weary sapphire
dense condor
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and staying home on full moon

weary sapphire
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It's not

dense condor
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FUN FACT

queen prairie
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TI survivability, not like PROTECTION

dense condor
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staying home as WW outs yourself

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since you dont clean wills

queen prairie
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it doesnt HARD out you

lapis osprey
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ww should clean wills tbhg

weary sapphire
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Chasington's argument is the equivalent of saying that it's okay to bring an assault rifle to a boxing ring because the other guy can bench press more than you can

queen prairie
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entirely random comparison

dense condor
weary sapphire
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It makes zero sense under scrutiny and is absolutely asinine in practice

queen prairie
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You are saying SK is "op" when it still fails to win its games in practice

weary sapphire
weary sapphire
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Because NK are poorly designed

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And this way of fixing NK doubles down on why they're poorly designed

dense condor
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NK should not win every game

weary sapphire
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It ham-fists the winrate rather than actually making them healthy

lapis osprey
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so does NA without a team because (most) is just gimmick nks

dense condor
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this might need to be said

lapis osprey
dense condor
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if the NK is always winning theres a problem lol

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NK having a winrate of even say 15% or higher is overpowered

lapis osprey
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true

queen prairie
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im retracting my dislike on this because of the points made but im still not upvoting it, this seems like a nerf that is unneeded

playing as SK feels like gambling with "when am I just gonna tarnation die"

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no matter how well you play

weary sapphire
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Fight fair

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That's what you need to do

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Not double down on scummy mechanics that ruin the integrity of the fight

queen prairie
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316 comments gang

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we're a third of the way to the custom icons thread

weary sapphire
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This is literally baked within the core of every NK

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No one cares

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Double jump SK doesnt fix its problems

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It puts a mile-high bandaid on them

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Nerfing it this way allows for more designspace to be expanded upon later

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Hey wait

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You know what this reminds me of

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This is a perfect comparison

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Hex Master's fucking astral visit

dense condor
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fear

weary sapphire
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That's what this is

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Double jump is SK's astral visit with book equivalent

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And its equally toxic

dense condor
weary sapphire
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Cursed Technique: BG-B-Gone

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(I still havent watched JJK)

queen prairie
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hex master astral is a band-aid

prisma plume
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Buff it by giving it one more charge Antics

weary sapphire
weary sapphire
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:]

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Sk needs one disguise + a better base foundation to work with

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Not double disguise + absolutely asinine baseline NK logistics

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@chrome escarp you're the resident ToL NK expert, surely you have something to say about this

queen prairie
weary sapphire
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I never pretended they were the same

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I just plug it whenever people mention the astral bandaid so people know theres another solution

chrome escarp
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I do
Possessor outclassed the 2 KPN SK + Arso NK and Reaper who could win at F6
(granted, Poss won at F4 because of forcevote but yeagh)

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i think poss came in at ~15% winrate

weary sapphire
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I mean

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Hot take (?) but 15%-20% is probably the highest an NK should ever win

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NKs oppose everyone, but aren't factional in the sense that they're comparable to multimember teams

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They shouldnt be some Big Bads that dictate how the entire game plays

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That's the Coven's job

dense condor
chrome escarp
queen prairie
weary sapphire
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I feel nothing towards NK

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I honestly prefer games without them at all

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But if forced to, I will balance with them at least slightly in mind

dense condor
chrome escarp
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Oh yes I also prefer no NK lol

weary sapphire
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I'll never understand the people who advocate for every NK becoming an anime protagonist

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Sure, when you roll it and play it you get more dopamine

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But at the expense of what

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You're trashing the experiences of fourteen other people by running around with plot armor

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When an NK wins, almost everyone else loses

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That's just a fact

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And hamfisting that winrate up only means more undeserved and frustrating losses for everyone

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Atm

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SK feels like that anime protagonist

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The only way to kill it is if it trips and breaks all its ribs on the Investigator's doorstep

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Without getting extremely unlucky with checks or confirms, a good SK is practically unkillable

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It's too versatile and slippery for its own good

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Since its ability voids accountability

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What's left

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A role that doesn't really need any skill to play; it just needs to not get unlucky and not be an absolute moron

stable coral
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SK ain’t unstoppable but yeah 2 disguises is really strong, maybe if 2 disguises where to be kept it should have a harsh cooldown like 3 days between any active disguise

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Disguise Sks counter is Jailor and Marshal

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I guess Conj

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Das kinda it

dense condor
stable coral
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I said if not it should

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Like uh tos and ToL are similar but NK in ToL where idk good

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Like they averaged 15% Wr if I remember correctly

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And the average role in tos is much weaker

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(Except Jailor lmao)

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So porting Possessor 1:1 does have some slight problems

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Like the ToL arsonist equivalent has a omecient basic attack at night (can’t hit something that would kill you), day time douses and the ability to straight up escape a hang once per game

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And SK is currently designed so it is an NK of similar strength

sacred plinth
lapis remnant
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already has been suggested

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but

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good change

lapis osprey
sacred plinth
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I just don't know what wildling has to do with this suggestion 😔

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Anyway I'm indifferent on changing this, I haven't played btos at all recently so I'm not super caught up with how this sk feels

dense condor
sacred plinth
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On the vanilla ranked grind currently

queen prairie
floral tinsel
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too hard of a nerf lol

heady surge
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Hi tuba, hope you're having a good day.

Anyway, I haven't had enough SK games to make an opinion on it but I think on a hypothetical level, 2 is fine

floral tinsel
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i want to mention you dont kill rbers anymore

heady surge
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Yeah, that's also true.

if Serial Killer is just as good as Arsonist, then we've hit the sweet spot.

floral tinsel
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arsonist is still better because its fully silent but sk is the second best rn

lapis osprey
heady surge
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I agree with that.

lapis remnant
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espec if ur good

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you can completely go off of radar

lapis osprey
floral tinsel
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town can figure jumps out in many ways

lapis osprey
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just as comparsion

floral tinsel
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if secret killers was default

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yes youre right

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but it is not

lapis remnant
heady surge
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Has nothing to do with Wildling's Echoes

floral tinsel
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hell we can make sk not rb immune and it would work

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rn

lapis remnant
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i have a like a 80% sk winrate cuz i just get a free second jum

floral tinsel
#

this nerfs it alot

lapis osprey
lapis remnant
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its really good in jackals mode if you stay in contact with rec

floral tinsel
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echoes was a nexperiment if it didnt work it didnt

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curt wanted to test a change

heady surge
floral tinsel
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perma sense was good

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for wildling

lapis remnant
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i dont think SK needs any rb interaction

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just

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normal

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espec with 2 jumps

lapis osprey
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not saying echos fails, im saying that echos most likely isn't enough to compete with most other CU

floral tinsel
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it can be fail the whole point is to test it

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to find out

lapis osprey
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what would be considered a fail here?

floral tinsel
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mark dep

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would be considered a fail

lapis osprey
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no i meant in more like

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proper statistics

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and

floral tinsel
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i personally think perma sense was better

lapis remnant
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perma sense worked but it served no real purpose

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like its coven utility was js outclassed by pmer

floral tinsel
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but curt wanted to test an idea and in btos2 changing stuff is easier

lapis osprey
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VM and Pmer are same level of utility

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...

heady surge
lapis osprey
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unless you got a Rit/CL

heady surge
floral tinsel
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had the random idea of an toggle ability that hides whispers between coven but that could be too strong

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a while ago

lapis osprey
dense condor
floral tinsel
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it was more of a jackal thing

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but

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for recs

heady surge
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Agree

heady surge
lapis remnant
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id much rather have vm and pmer over wilding

lapis osprey
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ok so you know the role

lapis remnant
lapis osprey
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so what

floral tinsel
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yea the idea originated as a jackal ability

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lol

lapis remnant
#

its better util than wilding

lapis osprey
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well yeah i know

lapis remnant
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im comparing the bucket roles

lapis osprey
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wait what do you think i meant

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so i said vmer and pmer was on the same level

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not that wilding is

lapis remnant
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i said id rather have pmer over wilding, then you say not really vm and pmer are same level of utility

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you confused me with the way you spoke

heady surge
# lapis remnant *organization*

Yeah, it's a pretty strong ability, it just doesn't belong on Wildling imo. Jackal can mess with it a lot better.

I think a second Wildling ability should focus on better, actionable information.

lapis osprey
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anyway

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wilding needs a buff but whisper hiding is not enough

heady surge
lapis remnant
heady surge
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Oh

lapis osprey
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anyway this has uhhh

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become pretty off-topic

heady surge
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Gotten derailed sure

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but that's fine i mean

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Tuba has seen the actual post, so

lapis osprey
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i was just trying to explain to curtis

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what temp meant

sacred plinth
floral tinsel
lapis remnant
#

the answer to this is to make secret killers the default and make sk one charge

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(#SecK best modif)

lapis osprey
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but eh

sacred plinth
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I think it's nice having it be an option

floral tinsel
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its gonna move a lot of casuals away from btos2 if it becomes default

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it solves a lot of issues yes but

lapis remnant
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we need more SecK role list fr fr

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i want more enchanter plays

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i love SecK enchanter

sacred plinth
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you become used to having more info, having that taken away suddenly is frustrating if you can't see things from a comp perspective

lapis remnant
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gonna have to wait till town of salem 3 in 2030 😭

sacred plinth
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I am liking Ranked alot in S4, also taking alot of notes for potential future changes based on how the games have been going

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mfw developer is actively playtesting their own game in competitive 💪

lapis remnant
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ranked s4 is one of the ranked seasons i actually enjoy

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i think removing the RP requirement is a bit dodgy but i see why

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the mode actually gets player

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and i love when modes besides AA get played

sacred plinth
#

People like to cry the game is unbalanced but its in the best state it's ever been right now, we're just going to keep improving in the future

sacred plinth
lapis remnant
#

the game is balanced theres just things that are kinda unfavorable

sacred plinth
#

means nothing regarding player quality I mean*

floral tinsel
#

theres a lot of forgotten stuff like Investigator not being weak anymore

sacred plinth
#

We'll keep ironing things out, S4 was realistically the biggest balance sweep we're going to end up doing

lapis remnant
#

you 100% cant call this game an unbalanced mess cuz evils and town sstill win often

sacred plinth
#

I can't release the ranked winrates without approval but they're pretty decent

lapis remnant
#

my only real issue with this game is confirmability

#

other than that

#

i dont mind

#

the state of the game

sacred plinth
#

It's only the first few days though, so we'll see how things settle

#

AA winrates we thought were important to share because things got like, incredibly good

#

33/33/33 was an insane share to actually see in the live game

lapis remnant
#

i dont even play AA anymore

sacred plinth
#

I think it's fantastic that there are more options than it

#

RP was supposed to be taken out but we kinda messed that up, it'll be gone next patch

floral tinsel
#

i havent played vanilla for a long time

lapis remnant
#

ive actually found myself enjoying the vanilla game abit more with ranked

sacred plinth
#

we removed RP early, then didn't remove it when we were meant to Kappa

heady surge
#

Tuba when are you going to stop Coven from targeting me n1

lapis remnant
sacred plinth
#

Ya when it comes to balance perspective Tuba plays alot more modded than me, I play alot more vanilla. It's good for us to both have grounded viewpoints on the game from both environments

heady surge
ionic galleon
lapis remnant
#

a huge issue i see with a lot of tos balancing is something i call

Radical balancing.

people tend to lean a lot in one direction or the other.

i only want confirmability to be nerfed and then idrc about most stuff

#

but a lot of people talk about full changes

#

or lean harder into confirmability

#

my only issue is that people dread being evil a lot of the times

lapis osprey
#

it's a place to have ranked without the expectation of losing elo

heady surge
lapis osprey
#

protection for elo is nice to get used to the new changes

#

but eh

heady surge
#

Having two rankeds made it less possible to play

sacred plinth
#

We only want one of the modes in for queue-health reasons

heady surge
#

I think they made a good decision

sacred plinth
#

Perfect world we have both, but we gotta be realistic

floral tinsel
lapis remnant
floral tinsel
#

non tpow roles should not be instant confirm

sacred plinth
#

ranked protection is a pretty good compromise

lapis remnant
#

the ranked community only plays customs in off season anyways

#

to follow the ban list of gters

#

/trolls

stable coral
#

Out of curiosity

lapis remnant
#

pros get nuked

#

temporarily

floral tinsel
dense condor
#

is there anything being looked at for pros?

floral tinsel
#

yes

stable coral
drifting gazelle
#

LoL doesnt have RP and it works fine

queen prairie
drifting gazelle
#

RP forced people into playing RP, but once you did your 10 games ye had no reason to play RP again

#

preventing new players from meeting the requirement

floral tinsel
#

the idea might not be perfect but

#

something will be tested

#

in all scnearios it should be better than what we have in btos2

heady surge
#

thus decrees the mighty tube'

weary sapphire
#

It doesnt hold a candle to VM

heady surge
#

now this is pod racing.

weary sapphire
#

Eh

#

Backread everything

#

2 charge SK is staying it seems

weary sapphire
#

What does Coven actually need to communicate through whispers?

#

It would be great as a Jackal ability, as Jackals lack factional chat and thus are more whisper-reliant, but for Coven it seems weak and redundant due to lacking real usecases.

weary sapphire
#

Your reaction is justified

vapid goblet
fringe rune
#

I have no opinion on this because I have seen zero competitive gameplay with sk

floral tinsel
weary sapphire
# floral tinsel yes it originated as a jackal ability

In the case of any role, the best way to buff it is to look at its usecases and work from there. Developing a role from a concept alone doesn't work well because it doesn't always allow for designs that play well in practice

#

For Danger Sense, for example, I specifically tried to give Wildling new usecases against confirmed townies, selfing townies, and tpows by starting from a "what can the Coven learn that will be actually actionable" viewpoint and developing specifically with that in mind

#

And for whispers-centric abilities, Jackal again has way more usecases than Coven, so Wildling should't get whispers-centric utilities but rather more actionable info.

prisma plume
#

Somehow always goes back to Wildling

#

It's a closed loop

#

a constant of the universe

manic quartz
#

One day wildling will get a really good rework that everyone likes. We must then find a new target (I vote dreamweaver)

weary sapphire
#

It's just that unlike Wildling, it's banned from gamemodes as a bandaid fix

#

If it was unbanned its winrate would be abhorrent

#

I might take a crack at something that's not Paranoia

#

Since Paranoia's been soft-rejected already

prisma plume
#

Chainsmoker Dreamweaver:

#

also I'm like 90% sure Hypnotist Dreamweaver's coming eventually

weary sapphire
#

It better have usecases outside of claimbagging

#

Hypno sucked because it was just a claimbag central

prisma plume
weary sapphire
lapis osprey
#

"it will be weaker"

weary sapphire
#

Yeah I dont like the thought of that

#

CD in general are still too weak

lapis osprey
#

also how do you even make hypnotist weaker?

prisma plume
weary sapphire
#

Even buffed Medusa struggles at being viable compared to more heavy utilities like Pois

#

Despite being arguably the strongest CD

prisma plume
#

but weaker than the suggestion

weary sapphire
#

MH sucks, Illusion sucks, Alterate is gimmicky, Enchant is unreliable

#

Imo they should all be buffed

lapis osprey
#

@weary sapphire lmao imagine the fucking add dream weaver hypnotist and then remove victim feedback Trollface

weary sapphire
#

Except maybe Enchant

#

Enchant just needs to be standardized

prisma plume
#

Mass Hysteria becomes slightly weaker but becomes a toggle instead of a 1 use gimmick Antics

lapis osprey
#

(i do think victim feedback should be removed)

#

NO

#

no that woudl be busted

weary sapphire
#

It's at its weakest when every town receives known false info

#

If less town receive false info, its a buff

prisma plume
weary sapphire
#

Fair

#

That would really suck

#

More parasitic design wooo

prisma plume
#

Not a serious suggestion dw lol

#

That sounds HORRIBLE to play against

weary sapphire
#

It also just sounds horrible

fringe rune
#

Imagine illusionist makes mass hysteria permanent like vortox Antics

meager urchin
#

Imagine illusionist gets vortox’s alternative wincon Antics Antics

fringe rune
#

The illusionist summons armageddon day 2 fr

meager wolf
#

If Tuba thinks that removing 1 jump is too harsh, then instead of doing that, you could have SK lose defense on the night they jump (Like Old CL)

This is just an idea I had, I don't know if it's any good

raw ore
#

We should compromise with giving it 1.5 charges instead fr

meager urchin
#

Schrodingers jump

#

The .5 randomizes who a message is from

#

It COULD be from the sk, or the disguise victim

rare knoll
#

imo ability name should change too

maybe to Cutout

lapis remnant
rare knoll
#

because this reminds me of old Disguiser in ToS1

lapis remnant
#

yes but the names need to be intuitive

rare knoll
#

thats why Cutout

lapis remnant
#

you dont want people reading what the ability is half the time

#

or the community coming up with their own term for a name

#

the name itself should be good

#

if it was called cutout ppl would call it disguise anyways

rare knoll
#

or Mannequin?

lapis remnant
#

it still would js be called disguise by the community

rare knoll
#

then Impersonate?

lapis remnant
#

that works

rare knoll
#

imo if this community was just a little smarter then Varnish could work too

lapis remnant
#

it works

rare knoll
#

or Standee

lapis remnant
#

but the names need to be intuitive

#

you dont wanna make something complex

#

for the sake of being complex

prisma plume
#

Or Skinsuit

rare knoll
#

yeah that's not really action-ish

#

but works

prisma plume
#

The Disguise ability initially was a Shroud one, but people mentioned that SK needs an overhaul more than Shroud, so it was given to SK instead

#

And the joke was that the SK was wearing the skin of their victims lol

#

Ted Bundy style

rare knoll
#

I kinda still have problems considering this is a problematic ability from ToS1

#

Trial System and all

prisma plume
rare knoll
#

tarnation how did they find Alterate as a term

lapis remnant
#

its a pretty common word

#

in like college and work

rare knoll
#

I've genuinely never heard of that word form before ToS2

#

usually it's just Altering

rare knoll
solemn bluff
#

Other change I can accept is making it so Disguise doesn't let you fake your death.
%player% died! They were killed by a Serial Killer, but the body isn't theirs! They left a last will...

lapis osprey
#

it fucking is?

#

it literally just is lmfao

#

why be so pedantic about flavour

#

let's just call shit as it is

rare knoll
#

its just ew

#

and no thanks

#

i do not want trial system nightmares

lapis osprey
#

"It's just ew"

#

nice "agurement"

rare knoll
#

First off, the thing is, reassociating this old ability with a name already repurposed for something else is not going to be very comfortable.

#

Next, the ability itself has a history of being severely problematic whilst it was associated with that name.

#

Thirdly, I do not want confusion over who references what. Because name overlapping is going to cause communication problems especially in a gaming community.

lapis remnant
#

Does context not exist

jovial lintel
lapis remnant
lapis osprey
#

ok claim bags as a concept are not bad in itself

#

but for fuck sakes it's coven utility not coven claimbag

#

it does nothing to actually help

#

compared to Voodoo master with can deny info for a day and voting denial

#

Potion master which can protect and reveal information

#

Necromancer which is just busted with the right role count

#

poisoner which roleblocks and bounces, stopping town and confusing them

#

then you have wilding

#

which only use is to sit in a chair and nsfw report people in whispers while being called out for the being the 3rd tracker claim for the 4 billionth time

stable coral
#

Its boring and has many many ways it can fall apart fast

#

as a TLDR

#

I prefer niche but extremely useful (Like illusionist or enhanter) over large coverage but more oten than not useless (Like wilding or Hypno)

#

Like Illu and enchanter need some changes but jsut some slight tweeks in certain areas imo

#

Wildling needs help

rare knoll
#

Also, I hate this ability in particular.

jovial lintel
dense condor
#

its utility in btos2

eternal vault
#

but yeah it is here

#

question by the way

#

did tuba ever specify if it was going to be exclusive to btos2 or just tos2 (it has no reason to be but just asking)