#REMOVE (victim) protection feedback

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

hardy yew
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eh

hidden kelp
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(remove murder from invest now)

idle linden
hardy yew
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i was gonna say what if you replace a cd with pois

idle linden
hardy yew
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but i remembered you cant smog teammates

rotund isle
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Lookout/Tracker can be faked by Wildling, Plaguebearer
A few more can fake tracker to varying degrees of effectiveness
Psychic is just... easy enough to get by luck
Investigator is harder, but good for Wildling and Plaguebearer
Sheriff is especially easy as Potion Master

You don't like how TP can't be faked by as many players.
The solution: Increase means of faking town TP, don't make them blindfolded and literally unconfirmable by all means.

hidden kelp
hardy yew
# idle linden ?

cause pois basically has auditors kit minus charge stealing which is bad anyways

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and uo is better smoke pretty much

rotund isle
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"better"...?

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I mean, if you want to push of LO and attack, smoke does that. UO doesn't.

hardy yew
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smoke = abilities still go through
uo = abilities dont go through
smoke = loud
uo = less loud

rotund isle
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Ah you meant by being obviously evil

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that's fair

hardy yew
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what

rotund isle
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I thought you meant mechanically, which provides more value

hardy yew
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im just talking about the abilities themselves

rotund isle
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I understand

hardy yew
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smoke lets abilities like vigi still go through

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uo doesnt

rotund isle
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CK

hardy yew
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uo has more coverage and is less silent

rotund isle
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less silent real

hardy yew
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more silent

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i mean

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oops

idle linden
hardy yew
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sorry i think my brain is fried from this "debate"

valid plover
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Claim bag as your second ability sucks ass

idle linden
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I claim invest as WW

hardy yew
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but thats like one thing smoke has over uo

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uo still has much more coverage under its belt

marsh frost
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I shouldve known the conversation was going nowhere when i saw “TT Hater” ngl
(I mean ik it was prob going nowhere, but that does confirm it)

idle linden
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I like both tbh, smoke just has it caviots

hardy yew
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smoke is kinda weird

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auditor as a whole is

marsh frost
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Auditor is a funky role

idle linden
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I mean uo didn't exist in tos1

hardy yew
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yeah

idle linden
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And it came from tos

hardy yew
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i dont necessarily like charge stealing all too much

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auditor is better then judge

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but thats an infinitely low bar

idle linden
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The days when audi used to just take one charge

hardy yew
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me needing to visit the vigi 3 times

marsh frost
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Frog is typing a lot it seems
Im scared

rotund isle
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prepare

idle linden
hardy yew
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LOL

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i feel like btos2 nps are the reason people get scared when antitown nes get talked about

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btos2 nps kinda suck, people know this

idle linden
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Starspawn peak np

hardy yew
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yeah starspawn is arguably the most balanced

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everything else is a mess

idle linden
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The bucket is a very nice bucket to have

marsh frost
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Ye

idle linden
marsh frost
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I like the idea of nps
I wish i could cause more chaos with them

idle linden
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It would nerf crus more and buff ss more

hardy yew
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silent disruption would be best

marsh frost
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I wanna be like Mafiagg Traitor
Where my entire plan is to fuck with town and not care too much abt being killed (as long as evils live)

NPs try to accomplish that

hardy yew
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  • that also means people can finally fake tavern keeper
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without relying on the poisoner offchance

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or the baker

rotund isle
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Info only fake claiming is very easy, and that's why TP and TK are so "confirmable", because it's just not so easy to fake.
This doesn't mean we need to take away their evidence of being real, it means we need to add more noise, more ways that evils can present the same information.

A Wildling or Plaguebearer can perfectly act as a Lookout. That's why you're quite quick to suspect them if Pestilence transforms or you think someone's listening to whispers, or even if the Lookout just isn't being all that useful. (wow deducing behaviour socially)

To fake TP, you kind of have to invest in it, by wasting an attack, and there are fewer of them you can fake.

This makes TP claims very strong.

This "solution" fixes it by disabing the confirmation aspect, but there are issues:

  • This does NOTHING for Trapper, who still is incredibly hard to fake
  • This does very little for bodyguard
  • A Cleric or maybe Oracle will have a VERY hard time defending themselves from anything at all.
  • You've taken away coven's only means of effectively faking TP in an attempt to protect them

A better solution is to expand on the ways you can fake TP. This can include an information reduction.

  • I think Hidden Killers should be the default in any reasonably competitive mode, so you can claim kills as Trapper kills.
  • Protection messages can be generalized, including for Trickster, just saying "...but you were saved!"
  • I think Oracle shouldn't learn when their target was attacked, but they should learn when saved.

This opens up Trickster and sometimes Trapper fake claims, and very rarely Bodyguard fake claims. Some more changes can make this even more effective, but this is long enough. This means TP are less trustworthy, faking TP is easier, but there is a means of finding evidence for them being real.

marsh frost
valid plover
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4 roles that can do UO is easily confirmable

idle linden
hardy yew
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fair

marsh frost
rotund isle
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Maybe they keep sticking on random TI, but never the one coven attacks.
Maybe you just don't really trust the reasoning.
Why does the Lookout keep moving around, especially to those who don't visit? Maybe they are spreading plague?
Or, why does the Lookout keep waiting for the Tracker to post, and moved off of the TPLO specifically when they were tracked? It sounds like they're actually moving around, and using plague for deduction.
Or maybe even -- why was the Lookout on the passive Retributionist who happened to die? Yes this found coven, but who plays like that? Almost like the Retri was plagued and he wanted to prove himself as not coven

rotund isle
marsh frost
marsh frost
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Talk

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Its a social deduction

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Be social

rotund isle
# marsh frost Then dont be passive

I'm not saying I want to be passive, but just activity and speaking patterns being the means of deduction just isn't very interesting to do

digital plover
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new idea: hidden killers, hidden roles, no last will, no feedback, no anything. literally no confirmation for anything you do in the game. i actually dont even wanna feel like im playing a game or feel like anything im doing has an impact

marsh frost
rotund isle
hardy yew
digital plover
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i am

rotund isle
marsh frost
rotund isle
rotund isle
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You've taken the only source of trust

hardy yew
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nobody said "lets remove all sources of information and put you in a blindfold" they said "lets make mechanical checks harder and increase the scope of social deduction in the game"

rotund isle
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to ... make fake claiming MORE trustworhty?

hardy yew
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if you think that means putting you in a blindfold

marsh frost
hardy yew
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you should probably step back and ask yourself if you LIKE sdgs in the first place

rotund isle
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I don't see a fake Cleric claiming to protect someone being significantly better than a fake Cleric claiming to not have saved anyone

hardy yew
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or just wanna press funny buttons and get a dopamine rush

digital plover
rotund isle
digital plover
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me when someone disagrees with me: YOU ARE WRONG!!!! DO YOU EVEN LIKE THE GAME?????

hardy yew
rotund isle
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I like outplaying people. I like creating clever ways to fake "confirm" myself. I like finding who set up a scenario to fake their own confirmation in a group of "confirmed" players. That's all really fun.

hidden kelp
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what the actual fuck

hardy yew
hidden kelp
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no one is using personal attacks lol

rotund isle
hardy yew
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oh

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i see now you misinterpreted that

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both sides of this argument have been using personal attacks

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i didnt start using them just now or anything

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theyre not new to this argument, you and us have been using them

digital plover
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i made an exaggerated point to make my point

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dont really have anything to add

hardy yew
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so you cant exactly stand on a moral pedestal for this one

rotund isle
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I'm not 100% sure who's side pulse pethy is on rn

marsh frost
hardy yew
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yours

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lol

digital plover
digital plover
hardy yew
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"we are at a good balance right now imo" no we arent

marsh frost
rotund isle
# marsh frost Thats called strawmanning

That's not what strawmanning is. Strawmanning is when you represent someone else's argument in a distorted manner. "You like waffles? HE HATES PANCAKES!!!"

If you said "I like all waffles always", and I said, "So you'd like it if I mixed dirt into the batter?"
That's not a strawman, that's pointing out how your statement isn't always true.

hardy yew
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over half of town cannot be reliably fakeclaimed, and most of them require the offchance of the claimbag spawning to cast doubt

marsh frost
hardy yew
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relying on rng in order to cast doubt on roles instaconfirming themselves isnt exactly good game design

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multiple roles need coordinated groups to fakeclaim for

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therefore, just giving a big middle finger to neutrals

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trapper can still instantly mechanically check town, and multiple town still have unique messages

rotund isle
hardy yew
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we are not at a good enough place to start saying "theres a fine balance" yet

hardy yew
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pois is a claimbag, but has actual actionable utility

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same with baker

digital plover
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some teams will be objectively worse or better

hardy yew
marsh frost
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Indeed

hardy yew
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doubt, in turn, is good for social deduction games

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there

rotund isle
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I think Poisoner is pretty good. It prevents any tavern keeper from being confirmed without additional resources, such as a Sheriff. Sheriff's job is basically to find who's lying about being town as the fake version.

I think that's a healthy implementation. We can add more of these kinds of roles to make faking other players easier.

marsh frost
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If all town roles cant be easily confirmed
Then rng doesnt matter for rolling roles

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As shrimple as that

marsh frost
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Gotcha

digital plover
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me when i use a buzzword like claimbag

rotund isle
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And to be clear, you don't need a Poisoner to cast doubt on town. As long as there's 1 unknown coven role, you can accuse Lookouts/Trackers of being Wildling, Tavern Keeper/Crusader being poisoner, etc.
Who cares if there is a Poisoner, town doesn't know :)

hardy yew
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mechanical checks should be complimenting social deduction instead of competing with it and making social deduction obselete? why bother deducing when you can throw the trapper and lookou at a player?

marsh frost
hardy yew
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instead of beating around the bush

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i see what youre doing lol

digital plover
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no

hardy yew
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mk then

hardy yew
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since tos1

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and in other sdgs too

marsh frost
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We should just eject full mechanical deduction game enjoyers to wolvesville ngl

hardy yew
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eject them to wolvesville or bloxston

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i played bloxston like twice and seen other people stream it, it is not nor does look fun or balanced at all

hardy yew
marsh frost
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Im lucky enough to only have heard about it
Never seen nor played it

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I saw a picture of a clip and went “no”

hardy yew
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"yo tav claim, can you rb X for me and ill claim tav and say i rbd them? thank you lol"

hardy yew
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i genuinely do need to play botc i feel sour knowing the most recent sdg i played besides tos2 was wolvesville

marsh frost
marsh frost
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The only thing i dont like with botc
Is being Demon and there not being any alt wincon
Cuz thats stressing

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Everything else i enjoy

nova hull
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Maf, release the hounds

hardy yew
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ive only played (half?) of a botc game so far and thats my entire experience, genuinely need it tho considering the sdg market is lacking

hidden kelp
hardy yew
nova hull
hardy yew
nova hull
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because the CTS is.. lacking

hidden kelp
hardy yew
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sdg market currently is: among us tos2 wolvesville botc

marsh frost
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Also u should like frfr join tor
Secret killers is a given, no extra feedback aside from investigatives
Lots of deception
(The power roles are confirmable for the most part. But two have claimbags, one is monarch, and the other is medium)

hardy yew
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i need to dig deep and find more indie sdgs

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actually

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thats a lie

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all of those sdgs are indie

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oops

marsh frost
nova hull
hardy yew
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i only advocate for tpow being anon for the offchance they can be claimed

marsh frost
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Power roles usually hide
As protectives are a lot weaker

hardy yew
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but by nature since theyre unique tpow are just

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very unreliable

hardy yew
marsh frost
hardy yew
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sure

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dm me the invite

nova hull
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Express train to hell for ya pal

hardy yew
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LOL

rotund isle
hidden kelp
rotund isle
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can a man not meme

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1984

gentle sinew
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This was one of the debates on Discord of all time fr

marble knot
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Imagine bumping a suggestion you don't like

glacial orchid
last tide