#TT Hunt Lose Condition

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

brazen dew
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The fixed day limit stops TT hunt from taking ages, but by being an automatic TT win conditions, it leads to an unintentional advantage for the enemy team when there's more town alive.

There's a "magic number" where town's odds are best. It is usually 5, where you have the voting power to perform all 3 trials from any arrangement, but this number can vary. For example, it's generally 4 when someone, especially someone you trust, is knighted, as you can kill 3/4 players through trials. Killing increases this number, e.g. having a vigilante lets you eliminate 4/6 players in a standard configuration.

Below this "magic number" the game functions normally, as town has adequate time to eliminate all the players they are capable of, and fewer total players naturally leads to less guesses for town. The issue is that above the magic number, town's guesses don't increase. At 6 players in a standard configuration, you still only get 3 guesses, meaning you can pick 3/6 players. At 7 players it gets worse, letting you choose only 3/7 players.

Since town's best odds aren't when their size is largest, but rather closest to this "magic number", it means that they are incentivized to kill each other before starting TT hunt when above this number (aka """stalling""" or "veticiding"). It also means coven is incentivized to stop eliminations if they think their best odds is by starting TT hunt with lots of players (or """throwing""").

The fix is simple. Make sure there's ALWAYS enough time for TT hunt, by making the days based on player count. To prevent very long TT hunts, make it so TTs cannot start their hunt before they kill enough players. This means the "magic number" is anywhere TT hunt cannot start, so town wants to have as many members as possible, and evils want to have as few as possible. And once again balance is restored to the world.

Yes, we lost the game in the image, because this was the final night.

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odd ocean
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didnt tuba already say to make TT hunt based on current playercount

waxen iris
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Trickster bros we love throwing.

odd ocean
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lots of this is just yap

waxen iris
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WHAAAAT mon with knight had a DEFENDS 😱

odd ocean
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TT hunt also shouldnt be unfair for the TT

calm sequoia
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Yeah this has been suggested a lot of times and I dont think anyone disagrees so idk why this isnt added

brazen dew
upbeat magnet
odd ocean
brazen dew
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TT hunt shouldn't be [something that is not realistic to achieve] for the TT
??

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You mean they need a good chance of winning?

odd ocean
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they shouldnt have an abysmal winrate

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I can't define any parameters because guess what

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we have no stats on single TT hunts lasting more than the standard 3 days

brazen dew
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The winrate shouldn't rely on an unintended advantage.
If you're just talking about the intended style of gameplay, you could remove TT hunt in its entirety, there's no need for TT hunt to have X winrate for the game to play correctly.
It's all about making the game fun without breaking the intended mechanics.
So if there's a way to make sure everyone's playing correctly while also giving TT a good winrate I'm happy to hear it... but until then this is the best comprimise that offers a chance to win without changing the gameplay for the worse.

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And by "making players play correctly" I do mean in the design sense. Design the game such that players play it how they're supposed to. Enforcing a certain playstyle is a whole other mess.

vivid locust
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double tt is a badly designed list that needs to stop being voted anyway

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pretty much tt hunt the game mode

gaunt notch
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There’s fr no incentive to not rush hunt

odd ocean
regal coral
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unliking because I realised I thought it was something else and am too lazy to read it tonight CurtisMan

gaunt notch
sage forge
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I personally think 6 or 7 player TT hunts are the best, with enough variance to try to guess half of the players as TTs, so having the timer reflect that would be best

brazen dew
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I don’t see a scenario where the evils are guaranteed to go to a TT hunt from the start, what kind of scenario are you thinking of?

sage forge
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Apoc TT when the Bers dies before being able to kill, followed by the other factionals dying soon after

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With the worst case scenario being an 11 player TT hunt (including NP)

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What I'm saying is that if every TT Timer reflects the "magic number", TTs are heavily disadvantaged when TT victory is supposed to be an alternate wincon.

The "magic number" of days should lead to 3/4 players left (not including extra kills from jailor/vigi/marsh.

Otherwise the game might as well be "when it's just TT and another player remaining, the TT wins"

brazen dew
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Yes TT would be “heavily disadvantaged” in an 11 player hunt, but unfortunately it’s a decision between odds and incentives. If we gave the TT an advantage in larger hunts, this creates the incentives to start the hunt with more living players, which creates the incentives for “stalling” or “throwing” on both sides.

If there’s a way to increase the odds without having a TT advantage when it comes to more players this is fine, but would me a much more complex solution and can depend a lot on the game state.

One option is a dynamic day counter, like players/2, but this still leads to certain player counts being preferable. 7 players might be better than 6 players for the TT assuming you round down, as both would result in a 3 day hunt, and this gives a large town advantage when you have killing roles.

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To give TT good odds you need some artificial mechanism to cut down on player kills.

The best solution I can think of is a kill limit rather than a day limit. Once N players die the game instantly ends. But this still has those 6 vs 7 player scenarios, and edge cases like what happens if two vigilantes time their shot on the same night, and do we simply cut Marshal’s tribunal short

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You might have to disable Vigilantes and Marshals all for the sake of giving the TT consistently better odds.

odd ocean
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I already proposed something like that and people didn’t like it iirc

brazen dew
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Also, if the rule is you can kill 50% always, there’s another issue I can think of. As the game goes on, there’s naturally more evidence and behavior to judge who the TT is. This would also correlate with how many players are alive.

In the example of my image, the TI who found the CL was not a TT, so we were basically firing blind. If we get 50% kills, that means in a position where 2/3 pandora members are down instantly, they still get a ~50% win chance when town should instead be rewarded for finding and eliminating evils. As town does worse and gets eliminated, there’s now more information to deduce who the TT is, giving them better odds. This means the TT is better off in a losing position than a winning position.

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You would need to determine some kind of curve to adjust the probably of the TT winning to be roughly an upwards trend, where more players is a lower win chance, and less players is a higher win chance, to align with the goal of eliminating town.

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This of course brings back the very-long-game issue all over again…

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“The TT is either 14, 12, 8, or 3.”
“You have 2 eliminations to find the TT”
Some system for narrowing down who the TT might help, but that could end up being very RNG based. If just one player is hard-conf not TT (e.g. being the winning vote to kill Death, or being confirmed attacked earlier in the game) it makes it far easier for town to win

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A solution with a decent TT win rate in all positions is very hard.

dull orbit
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I remember that one game where pandora only got one kill, we found them instantly, and then we lost cuz too many people for hunt lmao

brazen dew
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Hence the problem

dull orbit
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Imo it's 3 days at 6/7 people and then a extra day for every 2/3 ppl

regal coral
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this is really interesting, I'd just like the "magic number" to be more specific and a good system that people can pre-plan for