#Remove public Doom announcements.

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

brave vine
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With this change in place, Doomsayer **Doomsayers **will no longer publicly announce who got Doomed upon winning. Doomed players will still be informed that they got Doomed, but not every player in town will know.

This way, evils who are claiming Town Investigatives and/or other evils guessed who haven't claimed can still continue to deceive the town instead of essentially being outed. This also allows evils more counterplay against being Doomed; if they're doomed, they can choose to fall on the sword that day to save a teammate or make riskier plays knowing they’ve got nothing to lose.

Overall, this is a smaller change that, while it doesnt fix the fundemental issues with the design, does help make Doom more evilsided (as it should be).

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sharp holly
toxic fox
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town can now bait evils to attack them when doomed 🔥

brave vine
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yeah

night sandalBOT
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@brave vine has leveled up! (48 ➜ 49)

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brave vine
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That's an added layer too

fallen apex
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Baiting evils into killing an already dead guy sounds fun

primal turret
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I think the message should still be public, but it doesn't kill evil players that are doomed

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kinda the opposite reasoning: Even if evils are outed, they will survive an additional day/night to control votes/do a night action

brave vine
primal turret
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Wastes a day of hanging as opposed to just letting them die to natural (Doom) causes

brave vine
primal turret
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glad you know

brave vine
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But with this change, evils can still do that and not be outed

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Tbh, doom being able to kill evils at all is stupid

primal turret
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yeah but they still die

brave vine
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Any solution to doom in its current state will be a bandaid solution

primal turret
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society 😔

brave vine
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Society if BMG got their game right on the first try

primal turret
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BMG did get it right first try. Alpha Admirer was peak role design

muted minnow
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society if tos came out after botc

brave vine
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Botc is way older than people think

toxic fox
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how old is botc

muted minnow
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it came out in 2021 so it was before tos2

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but not tos1

brave vine
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Ah you meant the first game

muted minnow
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yeah

signal maple
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more of a bandaid fix

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but still makes doomsayer better

deft light
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adding the al had doom is better than this

toxic fox
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i still think this would be a good change

deft light
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al had doom does the same thing

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its not public anymore

primal turret
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what's "al had doom"?

toxic fox
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from botc

deft light
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doom becomes day ability

primal turret
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oh?

deft light
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if u get it right during day the doomed players are given a choice, to live or die

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at night

toxic fox
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3 people choose to live or die

deft light
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like pirate popup

toxic fox
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all choose to live, all die

deft light
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if all 3 choose to live they all die

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and yeah only the doomed players will get that

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so it wont be public

primal turret
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sounds funny, but that does make Doomsayer feel more like an NS

toxic fox
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why did al hadikhia doom not make it in

deft light
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it can make it in

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curt didnt like it but

toxic fox
deft light
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he doesnt work on modded anymore

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so i can just add it

primal turret
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oh?

toxic fox
primal turret
brave vine
brave vine
deft light
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i mean he is still a dev

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my main point is

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its yet another difference from vanilla and modded

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why not

deft light
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however btos2 still is not the priority anymore

primal turret
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speaking of modded vs vanilla, will the wildling change in modded come to vanilla?

brave vine
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That much is obvious

deft light
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i dont have a lot of feedback

brave vine
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It’s still bad

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It’s only slightly more useful than pre-buff

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Most of the extra info you get comes out the next day anyway

primal turret
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haven't used it personally yet, but the extra info gain is nice according to teammates.

brave vine
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It’s better at catching neutrals

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But that’s it

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And PB still massively outclasses it

primal turret
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PB's ability is still considered the weakest of the apocs (along with its transformation)

brave vine
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Yeah

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Wildling is still weaker

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This is not a good thing.

primal turret
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not a bad thing either IMO. Claimbags are a sort of "necessary evil" to prevent certain Town from being insta confirmed

brave vine
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Who’s to say a role should only claimbag

primal turret
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obviously needs buffs

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but building around claimbags should be the path instead of overhauling the role from the ground up

brave vine
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Obviously

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There’s a reason all my Wildling buffs build off the base ability

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Wildling’s claimbag ability is fine to keep, but it needs something actually useful on top to be viable

primal turret
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staple a UO or smthn equally disruptive on it as a secondary for a simple solution perhaps?

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similar to the Poisoner treatment

brave vine
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No

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That’s a bad solution

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It’s the equivalent of adding Percept to Invest

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Or MH to Illu

primal turret
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yeah

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a staple solution

brave vine
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Roles work best if they can fulfill a single purpose

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Wildling gathers info

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And it does so by seeing what the town is doing/planning to do

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If it gets buffed, that’s what we should focus on— making Wildling better at doing that.

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Sixth Sense was the best solution, but now we’re at an impasse because there’s not a lot of designspace left for such a niche

primal turret
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I mean, at this point I personally think it should have a Potion Master sort of approach.

No one would normally give a role that's primary goal is revealing the ability to barrier as a secondary.

brave vine
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Potion Master is

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Not a well designed role

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We shouldn’t turn Wildling into PM when the original design still has potential.

primal turret
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besides Live Target, there aren't many solutions for "more information"

brave vine
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There’s Danger Sense

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It’s not a perfect solution

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But I’ll take it over what we have now since at least it does Wildling’s job well

primal turret
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I'll be 100% I really dislike the concept of Danger Sense

brave vine
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I’m still racking my brain for a good Wildling rework that isn’t just “passively receives a lot of info each night”

primal turret
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Silly idea; give it a sort of "Plague" like what PB has (that obviously doesn't transform them)

brave vine
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Not a horrible idea, but it’s still going to be on the weaker side

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  • it’s not unique
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I like unique role designs more than anything

primal turret
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using the KISS strategy

brave vine
primal turret
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Keep it Simple, Stupid

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or

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Keep it Stupid Simple

brave vine
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Right

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Yeah

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Well

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I try to keep things simple most of the time

fallen apex
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something that I feel not a lots of thing explored is the fact that a wildling is by definition not a human

brave vine
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The issue is, sometimes the execution requires a more complex solution

fallen apex
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so having something akin to learning form what they see could be interesting

brave vine
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lest you rely on bad designs like rng

brave vine
primal turret
fallen apex
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I dont know, I had a rough draft of a role that would evolve based on what happen to it during the game

brave vine
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Also I don't really care if Wildling is human or not
At the end of the day, roles are just designs with a name and icon. We shouldnt balance around the coat of paint they have

fallen apex
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but it was too niche

primal turret
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Imagine if Wildling acts sort of like Juggernaut, where the more of a certain scenario passes, the more information it gains

brave vine
fallen apex
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but most of it was repurposed into my DW rework

brave vine
fallen apex
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it had two version, none of which satisfied me

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one where it was able to "mimic" attributes from the players they visited, making it a very good booksponge

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and the other was basically a skin wearer that could full on gain the ability of whoever they visited if they died the same night

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ended up reusing some piece of both for DW

primal turret
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A little niche, but maybe a passive where Wildling knows exactly who visits Coven members and if Coven visits in the first place?

Though it's very niche and isn't enough to massively improve the role.

fallen apex
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  • dendromorph from NF
brave vine
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Fresh

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This is the trap people fall into when trying to improve Wildling

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They assume that giving it more info would scale its viability up linearly

fallen apex
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nah they need something special

brave vine
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When that's not the case; info that comes out anytime before late game is good as useless against a faction who massclaims everything anyway

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Look at Alpha Wildling

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It was a beast early game, but late game it might as well have not had an ability

primal turret
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so something that should scale lategame

brave vine
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Yes

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Like Sixth Sense

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That scaled very well into late game

primal turret
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or Reveal

brave vine
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Reveal doesn't scale

primal turret
brave vine
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Reveal has the same issues as Wildling getting more visit info

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It's just slightly better due to the info being more actionable

fallen apex
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btw shouldnt this discussion go to gen

brave vine
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Shrug

fallen apex
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since we aint talking about doom

brave vine
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Threads go off topic all the time

fallen apex
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fair

primal turret
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Why isn't PMer really talked about? It's an info role with a barrier stapled onto it

brave vine
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People just
Severely overrate rolecops

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My "make reveal a day ability" suggestion got downvote bombed in the official iirc

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Because everyone there thought PM was balanced

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(it's not)

primal turret
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Wildling's also a pretty good AA role

brave vine
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Ones that visit the person they kill

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And NAs who whisper

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And Jackal

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When their recruits whisper

primal turret
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generally, most neutrals lie about their visits regardless.

brave vine
primal turret
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exceptions are PBs, Bakers, and maybe Warlocks. Arsos lie about their visits often.

brave vine
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Eh

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Depends what they claim

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Either way, Wildling cant even reliably catch neutrals like PM

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And catching neutrals isnt a real niche

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The Coven should be built to fight town

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Not fight random stragglers on the streets

primal turret
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it ain't as good as PMer, but I'd argue Wildling is more useful in more balanced rolelists than PMer

brave vine
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PM

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Just gets info on people's roles
Slowly

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Their relative usefulness depends on what town does and town's overall comp, but seeing as they both suck, comparing their viabilities to each other are minute

primal turret
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fair

brave vine
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Wildling is much worse at finding Tpows than PM

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For instance

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But if 5 town fullclaim to the Tpow on D2

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Then it has the strength of a PM with 5x the speed

muted minnow
brave vine
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Surely this would be the perfect solution

muted minnow
primal turret
brave vine
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Only MH does, and MH is MH

primal turret
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MH's version of "fooling" is giving a "no visit" result

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which is often very easily disproven

brave vine
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MH makes targets appear to visit the Coven kill

primal turret
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oh for Tracker

brave vine
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If they're not Coven, that is

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And yeah, Lookout lacks any form of real deception with MH

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MH sucks

primal turret
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So Enchanting is easy to work with on Trackers (just have it incorrectly have them visit the attacked player) but how about Illusion? Without giving it a fully fledged "fake visit system" the next best solution is to have the target seemingly not move

brave vine
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All my Illu ideas have that for a reason

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Illusions that don't tailor to what the target is claiming can't do their job properly against half the roles in this game

primal turret
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I don't disagree that it'd be nice

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for frames and illusions to work in this context

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but I think it would've been added by now

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I personally don't think Tuba and Curtis didn't see these suggestions, and there are probably reasons they didn't add it that's not "lazy dev" and "bends over to Casuals"

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anyways, Wildling

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This isn't an "information based" approach, but it could have a secondary sort of "Beguiler" ability

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that redirects visits from one target to another

brave vine
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Personally

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Im adverse to Wildling designs that aren't information based

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I don't even like my own ideas that incorporate some other power ability

primal turret
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But as you've stated, the 6th Sense gimmick is probably the best information based ability the role can get

brave vine
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That doesnt mean the role is hopeless

primal turret
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I do agree

brave vine
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The thing about this game is

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It's hard to make evil-sided information abilities that scale into late game, where almost everything has already came out

primal turret
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especially ones that don't fuck over neutrals

brave vine
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On the flipside, it's easy to make evil-sided information abilities that function well early game

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Like Alpha Wildling

brave vine
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Alternatively, info that helps it early game

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And somewhat scales into late game

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A useful evil investigative uncovers things town would like to hide

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Stuff like like Vet alerts, TP selfs, etc

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I experimented with that with my previous rework (Hunt), but I dont like the concept looking back at it

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So I'm thinking of something else now

primal turret
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Any roles from BotC that are evil information roles?

brave vine
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Pretty much no other evil roles are centered around info.

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Spy and Widow also have secondary abilities

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It goes to say that info is a lot less valuable in botc than it is here.

primal turret
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fair

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From what I can gather, those roles rely on there not being a 3rd force opposing both sides

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Which I believe is one facet that makes information based evils difficult to design (Neutrals)

brave vine
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Evils also can’t disrupt as well in botc

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That factors into things

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Lot less synergy present

primal turret
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I think evils just need more disruption period

brave vine
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In this game or botc

primal turret
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Coven can learn everyone's exact role d1 and (assuming no rit and conj being able to benefit heavily from that information) I believe Town would almost always be better regardless

primal turret
brave vine
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I would tend to agree

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Right now coven relies too much on brute force to win

primal turret
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I think Coven just needs more disruption and deception, and not more info

brave vine
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Having an info role that can synergize well with those roles is a good designspace

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There’s no need to scrap Wildling for what it is

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Overhauls for other roles exist

primal turret
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6th Sense is probably the only thing that can benefit Coven even with the whole "reveal all Town d1" shtick.

LO and Tracker into one role isn't really that powerful otherwise

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Pure info cannot really work as an evil role in TOS2

brave vine
primal turret
brave vine
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As a standalone ability, most forms of disruption outclass it

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But paired with the rest of Wildling’s kit, it’s more than viable

primal turret
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It'd definitely be a better role than let's say Potion Master, but it'd still be a bottom half in utility role

brave vine
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While being a claimbag isnt a real niche, it's still a meager strength at the end of the day

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Sixth Sense may make up 80% of my Wildling's utility

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But that additional 20% still counts for something; it helps Coven be that much more informed and the Wildling that much more trusted

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If Wildling got Sixth Sense

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I see it easily rising above the current ranks of PM and Necro

primal turret
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oh wait Banshee is CD

brave vine
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Banshee counts as CU in my eyes.

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It doesnt deceive at all.

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VM deceives more than it.

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Anyway

primal turret
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yeah

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I'm just looking at it more, CUs are REALLY underpowered huh

brave vine
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If Wildling got Sixth Sense

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It would likely be stuck in 3rd

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Which, all things considered, is not a bad placement at all

primal turret
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Pois is pretty good, and VMer has it's vote manip, but besides that, it's a subalignment with some pretty weak roles

brave vine
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Except for VM

primal turret
brave vine
brave vine
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Town rarely whispers in comp gameplay

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Since its not worth it

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And there's really no need

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So Wildling having that secondary ability is negligible in most games

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Banshee can at least make one town member unable to work against majority consensus

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It's not a lot, but its better than claiming Tracker.

primal turret
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guess so

brave vine
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Sigh

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Here's the thing about CU

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Most of them are good concepts
They're just executed in a way that makes them underperform a lot

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Especially when you compare them to what they're competing with

fallen apex
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and then there is dreamweaver

brave vine
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Shit like Witch and Rit

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Who can oftentimes spawn in the exact same RC slot

primal turret
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Besides the fact that it can target neutrals, I personally don't see Rit as that strong

brave vine
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Which often steamroll Coven if not checked

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If Tpows didn't exist

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Rit would be a lot worse

primal turret
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Makes sense

brave vine
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It brings me to my next point actually

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CUs suffer not only because their abilities are poorly designed

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But also because a good majority of them don't adapt to the game they're in

brave vine
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And one of them is Banshee

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CUs do nothing to limit confirmation

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Only two of them are meaningful forms of disruption

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It seems like half of them just exist for the sake of it

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Their abilities are too weightless to actually support the Coven as they're supposed to

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Meanwhile, town with their stacked roster could really use actually effectual CUs to check them

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But instead, we're stuck with a game where the only checks to town fall into CK and Cpow (read: Cl and Witch)

primal turret
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Honestly, a lot of roles would work better if they sort of combined together

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not just for strengthening purposes

brave vine
primal turret
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but also to lessen rolelist swing

brave vine
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Lest we get the Cronenberg that was Season 3 (?) Invest

brave vine
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At the end of the day, this is a game where you're meant to have fun

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Having many ways to do so is good for game health and player retention, as opposed to having 3 CUs which are all viable, but repetitive to play as

primal turret
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Though combining roles seems to be a decent strategy

brave vine
primal turret
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take, for instance, Enchanter

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which is Forger + Framer

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Obviously I don't mean combine Poisoner with let's say Coven Leader

brave vine
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Parasitic abilities don't function as standalones, but some are still good for the game

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Thus, they can tag alongside other abilities that do function as standalones

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I think in all other cases though

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Combining roles is less of a viable option

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If we combined Wildling and PM reveal, for instance

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That would result in a role that may be stronger than both, but would be confused at what it tries to accomplish and overall janky in its execution

primal turret
brave vine
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That too

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Honestly

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PM is only considered good and Wildling is only considered not complete and utter dogshit because of the modes people play

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That being multiball modes where finding enemy factions is more important

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In a game where you start knowing the factions of almost everyone already

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PM and Wildling fall off hard

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But since no one plays those gamemodes

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People don't see how bad of an issue this is

toxic fox
brave vine
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Wildling and PM are ass in those modes