Typical
#Neutral Evil Overhaul
stoic igloo
knotty glacier
literally
knotty glacier
it's hard to tell at this point, but i definitely wouldn't be surprised if it was genuine
stoic igloo
If they were geniune
They wouldn't react so bluntly
They would just stop talking when they realize they have no rebuttal that doesnt make them sound insane
knotty glacier
well, okay, genuine to a point. eventually they were for sure just fucking with us
knotty glacier
yeah
the exact same thing happened earlier in this very thread
insert witty joke about ad hominem i guess idk
exotic skiff
Missing the WHOLE POINT OF THE NE ISSUES
strong torrent
hey I know doom is a toxic anti everyone role that usually sides with town but I think that's because you are trash 👍
cobalt ether
Doomsayer is good you just have skill issue man get better
valid quest
losing
one
tpow
is
gonna
be
annoying
for
town
of
course
yes
ok let's try again
losing one
tpow is
gonna be
annoying for
town of
course yes
gentle pecan
one message please
cyan geode
why are you saying this in a billion messages
gentle pecan
we saw it
valid quest
of course yes
gentle pecan
the FIRST billion times
valid quest
im trying to brute force the problem
shy coral
why are you saying this in a billion messages
bro checking for the part that is autoflagged
valid quest
yeah because nothing in that should be autoflagged
something is wrong here
losing one tpow is gonna be annoying for town of course yes
???
what?
@foggy star ok the conclusion is
discord hates you
exotic skiff
is gonna be
shy coral
bro checking for the part that is autoflagged
dont mind this delayed ass answer
I sent this and my power went out lmao
exotic skiff
whenever I see inconsistencies nowadays, my brain goes to AI
foggy star
<@761970132334411826> ok the conclusion is
lmao
discord got something against me
they already banned my last account
gentle pecan
anyways i love how most of the dislikes didnt bother to explain why they dont like it
my favorite
cyan geode
I think it's pretty simple
are you for or against the idea that anti-everyone NE doesn't work and needs a whole overhaul
gentle pecan
it'd be nice to know the why
exotic skiff
I explained why already, but I can understand your side of things
gentle pecan
I explained why already, but I can understand your side of things
for the others who didnt
id like to know why
rigid mist
it'd be nice to know the **why**
not everyone is gonna tell you why
why dont you look into the other side of the argument
random cipher
i just feel like most of these are anti-town
gentle pecan
i just feel like most of these are anti-town
that was the point
random cipher
which is fine, but it doesnt makes sense when NP exsists
the whole point of that bucket is anti-town
so why are we having the same goal in different buckets
it doesnt make sense to me
gentle pecan
- this focuses on actually doing stuff pariah cant
- these goals and roles leave early, the other stuff was tacked on to make them not suck to play if town wasn't falling for the NE
frigid pier
Since lagspikes wants the dislikes to explain themselves, I’ll quickly explain mine (pls don’t force me to argue)
-
This feels far too similar to the Neutral Pariah alignment, yet even easier since they can win without accomplishing their primary goal
-
This feels incredibly unfun to play against. While I understand it could be better from a competitive stance, I think it should still at least retain some fun in it (like, say, Temporary’s necromancer rework proposal which is both fun and balanced). Having an executioner that screws you hard or a jester that can literally destroy the information in the graveyard sucks and makes it much less fun since it forces you to make a lot of guesses.
foggy star
id like to refute the second part since limiting towns access to basically free information is insanely helpful considering how the game works currently
not having everything spoonfed to you can feel alot more rewarding in the end of the game even if you dont think itll be
gentle pecan
id like to refute the second part since limiting towns access to basically free ...
making town less reliant on roleflips and information is important
frigid pier
I’m just scared that it’ll result in a lot of standstills where town has no useful information and cannot do anything
soft halo
Since lagspikes wants the dislikes to explain themselves, I’ll quickly explain m...
It is very different.
Neutral Evil rework: You have a goal to accomplish that involves disrupting town, but if town happen to be all dead before you can win, that's enough disruption you did a good job, sure whatever.
Neutral Pariah: You have power and Town dying are the only thing that matters.
foggy star
not gonna happen
soft halo
It's like Inquisitor. If all heretics just die on their own, sure
That's totally fine.
foggy star
I’m just scared that it’ll result in a lot of standstills where town has no usef...
town will never not have any avenues for information from mechanical deduction means, such as ti or ts for instance. even if so, scumreading should always be a potential option for people
gentle pecan
im probably going to end up re-doing this by tuesday prob
random cipher
isnt the point of CD just to disrupte town?
gentle pecan
isnt the point of CD just to disrupte town?
to distrust information and to deceive the town
like enchanter who can fool TI and roleflips
foggy star
town is spoonfed way too much free info in the game already
with the wdah section and also list deduction
gentle pecan
town is spoonfed way too much free info in the game already
i hate mechanical deduction
frigid pier
Fair point, I’m mostly a vanilla AA player so I kinda forgot that the list could provide info
foggy star
70%? of this game
random cipher
i think i have a enchanter rework that i made a bit ago
foggy star
maybe more
foggy star
Fair point, I’m mostly a vanilla AA player so I kinda forgot that the list could...
yeah thats a fair point
random cipher
cause town does get a lot of info easily
foggy star
aa is good for the reason that list deduction literally does not matter
gentle pecan
70%? of this game
hence why im overhauling shit by the BUCKET
gentle pecan
aa is good for the reason that list deduction literally does not matter
VT as well
foggy star
vt?
gentle pecan
vanilla town
foggy star
ohhhh
random cipher
isnt that the list with 5 coven
foggy star
no?
it has 4 random coven and the rest random/common town
and i think theres either an nk or np thrown in there
gentle pecan
isnt that the list with 5 coven
no
gentle pecan
it has 4 random coven and the rest random/common town
ck cpow cc cc
np
and town is 2 tpow rest CT
foggy star
oh yeah
foggy star
i think vanilla town is honestly a great example of how the absence rolelist deduction just overall more beneficial for nontown as a whole
also yeah i said it earlier but im open to anti everyone if it can be done correctly
since thats what alot of people seem to want
also holy i just realised this post has 13 dislikes
gentle pecan
(i dont care but I think anti town works better on common neutrals)
foggy star
if anti everyone can be done well then ill accept it
unfortunately it means common neutral is still objective swingy though
just less so ig
gentle pecan
yeah
cyan geode
if anti everyone can be done well then ill accept it
That’s an if that the people who do anti-everyone NE have to prove
foggy star
yeah
rigid mist
That’s an if that the people who do anti-everyone NE have to prove
I mean
I exist
the only role I can't make a fix for is jester rn
dawn meadow
On the Common Neutral issue, I honestly never understood the bucket, NPs don't feel like they should be common, they feel more like Power Roles than Support/Utility Roles (due to Judge and ability disabling) though I understand that's more of a balance to the fact they don't have safe direct communication to allies. Not only that, in the current state, the two alignments in the bucket are already vastly different which is why the swing happens, might be better to just not have that bucket since that swingy nature that is inherently present unless NE is turned into another NP (or vice-versa but that's never happening) is what people don't like.
As for what to do to the lists that have them, I have no idea, but perhaps simply focusing it down to one or the other depending on whether most agree the evils need the help or not might be better, though it would probably require quite some shifting around of the lists.
rigid mist
On the Common Neutral issue, I honestly never understood the bucket, NPs don't f...
Common Neutral exists for a third party that doesn't have KPN
that's kinda just the simplest way to put it
valid quest
anyways i love how most of the dislikes didnt bother to explain why they dont li...
doom is bit eh but i like everything else
gentle pecan
doom is bit eh but i like everything else
i tried to make doom more user friendly
because it can really suck to play as
valid quest
add oberseve 
ok but yeah no uhh
i rather doom have more impact
if their gonna fuck off
instead of help evils
always
gentle pecan
instead of help evils
the neutral evils are anti town and pro evil
helping evils is literally all of these role’s goals
gentle pecan
help evils always
all of these help evils always
these are diversion roles for evils to cause havoc on town
wild hill
[[#44,1]] moment
exotic skiff
More like [[#7,9]]
strong torrent
course yes
dawn meadow
Common Neutral exists for a third party that doesn't have KPN
The issue with that is that NPs are not a 3rd party unless there are 2 or more conflicting evil factions (counting each NK as a faction but the point still stands).
rigid mist
The issue with that is that NPs are not a 3rd party unless there are 2 or more c...
they are a third party
it's called a tertiary third party
gentle pecan
apparently people like anti everyone
stoic igloo
They're the definition of kingmaking
gentle pecan
i worked that terribly
gentle pecan
ngl I want to re-do this to make it more punishing on town for letting the NE win
currently executioner and doomsayer are the only two im not gonna scrap
since they are fine (I think atleast)
(well i did doom anyways but like)
cosmic fjord
no, i feel like if anything, nes should be anti everybody
gentle pecan
no, i feel like if anything, nes should be anti everybody
then they end up being pro town
you cannot be equally anti everyone
cosmic fjord
my best description of ne and np, is np will do whatever is in their power to try to make town lose, ne will do whatver they can to make sure they accomplish their goal, harming anybody is collateral basically
executioner isnt inherintly anti town, he is just trying to kill a specific person who is town, jester isnt anti town, they just want to get voted, and they will kill someone who helped
for example
ok exe
is kinda anti town
ig
gentle pecan
executioner is hard anti town
gentle pecan
i cannot take anti everyone neutral evil seriously when we had shit like old torment
or jester
if you can make it work go for it
IF
eager tartan
i personally dont like the idea of NEs being NP lite
gentle pecan
yeah but i don’t want to deal with the shit like old exe or inquisitor targeting the entire jackal faction
now what
eager tartan
we dont talk about the dogshit that was Executioner
as for Inquisitor, thats just unlucky
gentle pecan
as for Inquisitor, thats just unlucky
i want a valid solution to this problem
gentle pecan
we dont talk about the dogshit that was Executioner
still a valid point
gentle pecan
two coven and the jackal is still town aligned inquis
3 jackals was just an example
eager tartan
nothing can be done about that
gentle pecan
making inquisitor
eager tartan
and no, 100% town heretic isnt good
gentle pecan
anti town
eager tartan
NEs should not be anti-town, otherwise they are NP lite.
gentle pecan
and no, 100% town heretic isnt good
so the neutral evil going against town is bad
the EVIL role opposing good is bad?
gentle pecan
NEs should not be anti-town, otherwise they are NP lite.
what is wrong with np lite
gentle pecan
why the hell would we want NP lite
why is it a bad idea
eager tartan
cuz anti town is NP's thing
gentle pecan
is it just that lol
gentle pecan
what
eager tartan
just current exe usually harms town more than evils
but trust me, current exe can very much harm evils
gentle pecan
current executioner is the textbook definition of pariah lite
mislynch a TOWN and remove a trial
gentle pecan
but trust me, current exe can very much harm evils
only if your claim harms them
eager tartan
me when im coven and Executioner makes me lose 🔥
gentle pecan
me when im coven and Executioner makes me lose 🔥
??
gentle pecan
you still help evils
eager tartan
no
gentle pecan
who cares which evils it is
eager tartan
you help yourself
gentle pecan
death winning is what pariah would want
eager tartan
which is an NE
eager tartan
thats a punishment
eager tartan
nobody, really.
gentle pecan
yeah im not dealing with this shit right now
eager tartan
ive been town, and one less trial barely does anything
gentle pecan
goodnight
gentle pecan
ive been town, and one less trial barely does anything
should be -2 trials as a footnote
cosmic fjord
they should make it so that instead of there being one exe in a game cause i think its unique, they should make it so that there is 3 exes
eager tartan
I very much prefer removing trials the next day over removing a trial for the remainder of the game.
soft halo
NEs should not be anti-town, otherwise they are NP lite.
"NEs should help Town, otherwise bad"
?
foggy star
executioner isnt inherintly anti town, he is just trying to kill a specific pers...
"executer isnt inherently antitown" goes on to explain how exe is inherently antitown
foggy star
NEs should not be anti-town, otherwise they are NP lite.
this is a good thing
foggy star
we have NPs
yes, there are NPs in modded
and no, contrary to popular belief, NE arent good in modded either
stoic igloo
executioner isnt inherintly anti town, he is just trying to kill a specific pers...
executioner isnt inherintly anti town, he is just trying to kill a specific person who is town
Mfw that is literally the definition of anti town
stoic igloo
NEs should not be anti-town, otherwise they are NP lite.
Have you ever stopped to consider why exactly this is a bad thing?
NPs are well designed neutrals. NEs in their current state are not and never will be.