Vigilante Nerf

[teal frigate]

Vigilante - Town Killing

Attack: Basic Defense: None
Abilities
Fire your gun at a player

Shoot (1)

Visit a player and shoot them
This is a harmful visit

Attributes

You have no penalty for killing a town member
You may not shoot n1 under any circumstances

Why?

A good vigilante outclasses town powers, can wipe 3/4 of the main evil faction, as a non unique town killing. A bad vigilante shoots a townie and dies, contributing to town losing the game. An unlucky vigilante gets controlled on N1 which loses the town the game very quickly by majority

It holds the town killing bucket hostage from getting good reworks by simply being too simple and powerful, while outclassing arguably all but 1-2 town powers

This nerf aims to keep it in check with the rest of the TK bucket like deputy, and making space for future TK reworks to make the game more balanced and fun to play.

[wispy spear]

I dont see any clause saying this cant shoot itself

so peak

[maiden delta]

isnt this mystics rework

[teal frigate]

what

[maiden delta]

but yes this is gud

[teal frigate]

i am not in official im not in the loop with this

[maiden delta]

idk how to forward messages

[teal frigate]

i am infact banned from official

[maiden delta]

Regardless this is fine

[maiden delta]

yeah you told me

forgot they dont really post here

[latent umbra]

first step to reducing blitz metas

[maiden delta]

- Vigilante now has one bullet.
- Vigilante does not die to Hangman, as that mechanic no longer exists.
- Witch cannot force a Vigilante to shoot on Night 1.
- If your target dies that night by any other means, your ability will fail. You will not lose your bullet or visit your target.

[teal frigate]

the fact that my justification portion is bigger than the rework

[maiden delta]

there I thought it was much bigger lmao

[maiden delta]

I mean its pretty simple

[sour heart]

5 likes in one minute

[teal frigate]

longest minute ever smh

[sour heart]

Anyway the casuals will hate this, which makes me love it all the more

[teal frigate]

a bunch of casual players crucified me in official when i last posted a 1 kill vigilante

though it was kinda bad i think i made it infinite shots until you killed once

[fringe zenith]

IMO make it 2 charges with the same penalty

This feels just kind of bad idk

I feel like for this to be implemented you would need to also rework vet

and maybe trick

not saying that vet shouldnt be changed but yeah

[teal frigate]

this would be the first change

currently it has to be in this way to not leave a gap where people call one role more shit than the other

[teal frigate]

well i have entire TK overhaul if you’d like to see it

[teal frigate]

with hangman?

no

[latent umbra]

i feel like the most amount of kp a tk should ever have at the limit is 2 so i dont mind vigi having 1 but with an easier condition

[teal frigate]

independent killers should be capped at two

for the second part you got it right

vigilante is the easiest proc

so it needs less potential

[latent umbra]

independent killers as in tk?

or nk

[teal frigate]

tpow tk

i would slap on ck but id like for those to be 1x a game

[teal frigate]

nk need more than two kills per game

[latent umbra]

yeah i dont like any town role that really has kp that pushes 2

even if its tpow its still just not good

[teal frigate]

its more justifiable as a power role thats very limited

versus uncapped tk

[sour heart]

Back in my day

We used to HANG evils

[latent umbra]

no…

[teal frigate]

[latent umbra]

social deduction in my sdg?

[teal frigate]

crazy

[latent umbra]

[sour heart]

Kids these days with their gosh-darn gunmen and their foolish marsh-alls... they've got it easy!

[lone quiver]

Alright, Cranky Kong.

[teal frigate]

anyways id argue vigilante could be tpow if jailor didnt exist

[sour heart]

1kpd, that's all we had to work with!

[lone quiver]

https://tenor.com/view/cranky-kong-donkey-kong-country-dkc-cranky-kong-dkc-old-man-rocker-gif-18048644303135655567

[teal frigate]

even two shot vigilante

[teal frigate]

veteran lore

[latent umbra]

tos can go 2 different ways for me

[lone quiver]

but uh

yes

[latent umbra]

we reduce kill power and make it a sdg

oooorrrrrr

we increase kill power

[lone quiver]

it becomes a FPS

[latent umbra]

and make it a first person shooter

[teal frigate]

town of salem battle royale

[latent umbra]

👍

[sour heart]

Guys what's the best way to level up my Investigator
I can't seem to get enough Elite Towncards

[lone quiver]

fortnite in tos real

but anyway

[sour heart]

ToS is the instant ramen of sdgs

That's the best way I can describe it as a franchise

[lone quiver]

anyway I DM'd Lagspikes my TK bullshit

[latent umbra]

fatty and processed?

[lone quiver]

since he can't read it in the actual server

[lone quiver]

there is no fat in those instant ramens

it's all salt and water

[sour heart]

Some of the taste for none of the substance
But it's convenient enough to keep you satiated and wanting more

It's very, very casual focused

And little social deduction actually occurs

[latent umbra]

also very convenient

[sour heart]

What does occur is button mashing

Then yelling over others during the day phase in accordance to said button mashing

[sour heart]

And occasionally an animation plays for tos2

That's about it

Legit vanilla is in such an awful state rn

[lone quiver]

yea and honestly

I don't think BToS2 really solves the two big issues

[latent umbra]

i pray that something happens

something

[lone quiver]

which are out of control kill power and Town of Confirm

[worn aurora]

All any*

[sour heart]

What's the difference

[latent umbra]

please take vanilla admirer outback

[teal frigate]

ive considered picking up fps shooters to get the all any experience with a chance to fight back

[worn aurora]

Bc all its played in Vanilla ITS AA

[latent umbra]

and give it the veteran treatment

[lone quiver]

the issues don't go away in other vanilla modes

[sour heart]

AA is literally just
"if you mash enough buttons on someone they die with no counterplay"

That's what it feels like these days

[latent umbra]

the best way i can describe vanilla aa is like

youtube shorts

[sour heart]

At least you can choose your characters in FPS

[latent umbra]

full of slop but dangerously addicting

[worn aurora]

Id make a slight chamge where since you can only pew once you would maybe make it so you have your charge until you finally kill someone, but still good rework

[sour heart]

You turn your brain off just the same

[sour heart]

Fun fact
This was Lag's original suggestion

[teal frigate]

learning defense is incredibly powerful though

[lone quiver]

yea

the way I did it is

if your target was gonna die anyway

you keep your bullet

but not if they had defence

[teal frigate]

didnt mine get like 26 dislikes

in official

💀

[lone quiver]

people don't like nerfs

mine was better received

but

ugh

Saana spent like 7 years bitching about it

because "it would make Vigilante about as useless as Coroner"

yes those are the words they said

[teal frigate]

i havent seen that yet

[sour heart]

Most compatant BMG dev

[lone quiver]

Saana isn't a dev.

[sour heart]

Mb

(the devs honestly arent better though)

("We don't want to kill Seer~~`!!!!~I!!O~I!JU!!")

[bronze sonnet]

Lag, how did you get banned from Official?

[teal frigate]

being negative

[lone quiver]

"constant negativity", apparently

[teal frigate]

im serious

[bronze sonnet]

...sounds about right-

[worn aurora]

This thread has def turn into a dev hating thread 🍵

[lone quiver]

lolno

[teal frigate]

no

[bronze sonnet]

xd

[lone quiver]

I didn't bring up the devs

[latent umbra]

we also dont want to kill pirate 😭

i honestly wish that ns was made earlier so it could atleast house pirate and jester early on

[lone quiver]

...

[latent umbra]

because

[lone quiver]

this is a vigi thread

let's not do this here

[teal frigate]

thats a different can of worms

[latent umbra]

lmfao

[molten sparrow]

So basically nighttime deputy?

[worn aurora]

Aighty

[teal frigate]

yeah

[lone quiver]

yeah yeah deputy

Deputy sucks

day kills suck

[worn aurora]

Yes

[teal frigate]

so

[molten sparrow]

Which gets fucked by any temp defence?

[latent umbra]

post dep rework lagspikes

[teal frigate]

while on this

[sour heart]

If I could delete any role from my beloved and most cherished game Town of Salem 2, it would have to be the Pirate. This disgusting excuse for a skallywag yarrrgs on my every move, dueling me as I walk my dog and even in the shower. Not only that, but when I ask it to join me on my quest to murder the South Korean Prime Minister, it calls what I'm doing "YARRR AVAST ME MATEY" and "GIVE ME DAT BOOTY OR IER TAKEN' YE ASS"; truly revolting. I hate the Pirate because in every game he's in, all he does is claim piss colored Vigilante and get himself killed because he told everyone he was dueling the Jailor n2. If I could delete this asinine role from the face of the earth and ensure that his lobotomized excuse of a brain could never beat me at RPS 7 times in a row again, I would. I hate the Pirate.

[teal frigate]

Deputy - Town Killing

Attack: Unstoppable Defense: None
Abilities
Challenge a player
Have a showdown

Challenge (1)

Pick a player during the day
You will mark them with Challenged at the start of the night
Charges are only consumed if your target can be shot

Showdown (Passive)

If you marked a non town player who wasn’t illusioned the day you picked them and doesnt have any defense, you will deal them an unstoppable attack at the end of the night if you live
You learn if your shot failed at the end of the night when you would have attacked them

Attributes

Evils will learn a deputy is challenging them at the start of the night
Your shot will fail if your target gets jailed while not consuming a charge
Framed players appear as the role they are framed as

vigilante sidegrade

tada

[lone quiver]

UNSTOPPABLE

[teal frigate]

read it

[lone quiver]

ARE YOU

NO

[teal frigate]

it cant shoot defense

[lone quiver]

THEN WHY IS IT UNSTOPPABLE

[teal frigate]

its to stop pm from saving

[lone quiver]

||Why are you buying clothes at the soup store||

[latent umbra]

jesus

hoooly

[teal frigate]

because im an idiot or something

anyways

uh yeah might need to change it

[worn aurora]

So make it pretty much not insta kill but wait 2 kill?

[teal frigate]

yeah

the counterplay is killing dep but eh

might change that

[worn aurora]

Ok then what is almost the diff between this rework and this rework

They all kill at night

Once

Ik the oh stay alive thingy

[sour heart]

If I could delete any role from my beloved and most cherished game Town of Salem 2, it would have to be the Potion Master. This disgusting excuse for an alchemist masters on my every move, revealing me as I walk my dog and even in the shower. Not only that, but when I ask it to join me on my quest to murder the South Korean Prime Minister, it calls what I'm doing "okay team i revealed 7 hes coroner" and "what the fuck do you mean you can't rit him??!?!!?"; truly revolting. I hate the Potion Master because in every game she's in, all she does is claim totally legit Sheriff and get herself killed because she said that the Berserker showed suspicious N1. If I could delete this asinine role from the face of the earth and ensure that her lobotomized excuse of a brain could never prevent me from giving the conjurer a sick wombo combo n3 as BG again, I would. I hate the Potion Master.

[teal frigate]

yeah i might just scrap it

i kinda took it from artificer from nightmare forest

[coral dew]

I like this

[worn aurora]

This thread is def smth else 💀 still good rework tho soo yipee

[coral dew]

no other comment to be made

B)

good day

[molten sparrow]

Might I add that both of these reworks here are bad for a player experience

[latent umbra]

i mean

[teal frigate]

mystic once you’re done crucifying me some feedback would be nice

[sour heart]

I've lost track of how many of these I've done

[molten sparrow]

One button gameplay sucks

[latent umbra]

not really

[teal frigate]

you still hold lots of power

[molten sparrow]

Mods, delete this man

[teal frigate]

and it isnt over if you screw up

you can still play the game

[latent umbra]

id prefer this over then spawning as coven when i have to face up against 2 vigi that could steamroll the entire coven 2 times over

[molten sparrow]

You do realize that in both cases, you resolve a 1f1 and thats it

ONE 1f1

[lone quiver]

ok but like

here's the thing

[molten sparrow]

And then you sit there and be a vote for the rest of the game

[latent umbra]

theres more to this game then 1f1s

[lone quiver]

there's only 4 people you need to kill and can kill with a basic

[molten sparrow]

EXACTLY MY POINT

[lone quiver]

3 kills is already kind of a lot for ONE person to carry by themself

[teal frigate]

maybe one less if CL is in play

[molten sparrow]

AN ENTIRE ROLE SHOULDN'T EXIST JUST TO SOLVE 1F1s

[teal frigate]

for town having on average 9-10 players yeah

[latent umbra]

who said this role is here just to solve 1f1s

[lone quiver]

Why should 1 person be able to carry the whole game

[molten sparrow]

I am!

[lone quiver]

Especially not even a TPow

[teal frigate]

if thats all it is to you

[molten sparrow]

Thats what Deputy is good at

[teal frigate]

then sure

[molten sparrow]

Try and tell me otherwise

[bronze sonnet]

there are two wolves PM Copypastas:
One is the one that shall not be named or spoken in my presence
The other is this

[teal frigate]

i wont dictate how you play

[latent umbra]

with this vigi you can actually try to

[teal frigate]

theres much more to it than a 1f1 solver

[bronze sonnet]

more embarrassing for a Death to be shot than prossed

:P

[coral dew]

actually, yeah
isn't this now kind of a worse nighttime deputy
-# common dep skill issue

[latent umbra]

scum read 😨

[latent umbra]

dep daykill bad

[bronze sonnet]

then everyone can point and laugh :)

[latent umbra]

👎

[coral dew]

I agree

actually

[teal frigate]

dep rework (its not actually unstoppable)

[lone quiver]

The entire point is that the whole TK slot is held back by needing to compete with Vigilante who is really, really strong

3 kills is more than you really need

so every TK needs unhealthy bullshit to keep up

[teal frigate]

ive really never used all 3 shots

[lone quiver]

except Trickster who is just a TP hanging around in the wrong slot

[latent umbra]

i have

and it did feel good

[teal frigate]

rarely yeah

[latent umbra]

but only for me probably

if i was coven and my team got wiped by vigi id be fuming

so theres your player experience for you

[coral dew]

anyways off i go
good night (it's 10 pm over here)

[teal frigate]

goodnight

[bronze sonnet]

goodnight, sleep well

[latent umbra]

unfortunately trick being here just complicates stuff

ive never really seen the need for more then 3 tk

if it can work, sure

[lone quiver]

i want to just move it to tp

but curtis .-.

[molten sparrow]

Deputy rework:
Deputy (Town Killing): From day 2 onwards, you may choose up to three players to mark. At night, if you have a player marked, you may choose a player to stake out at. If your target doesn’t visit a player you marked the previous day, you will attack them. Marks persist until the end of the night. You will lose the ability to mark if you kill a Town while staking out. Powerful attack. No defence.

[latent umbra]

were gonna have more tp then ti atp lol

[teal frigate]

powerful bad

[latent umbra]

we just need alot of the fat cut

[molten sparrow]

What?

Why Powerful bad?

[lone quiver]

Yeah unfortunately that's not an option

[reef fern]

Veteran bad

[teal frigate]

defense exists

for a reason

[lone quiver]

Town and Coven having so much access to Powerful makes NKs' innate defence meaningless

[molten sparrow]

But SOME tks have to punch through it

[lone quiver]

No

they really

really shouldn't

[reef fern]

the rework has to have more "skill" in order to actually attack tho

reasonable for a powerful

[lone quiver]

no

[molten sparrow]

Would basic change literally anything?

[lone quiver]

Yes it would

[teal frigate]

only jailor should realistically and thats because it’d break for some interactions

[latent umbra]

if a tk has powerful or above its just pretty much a neutral bullier

in a balanced list

[teal frigate]

be the only town with powerful+

[latent umbra]

a tk would usually have access to kill most of the evils

[molten sparrow]

But think about this

[lone quiver]

Basic attack on a TK would prevent NKs from dying in 1v1s and would also force town to hang the NK
At which point you can potentially push the TK as fake

[molten sparrow]

You have to first mark someone

[lone quiver]

Yeah I don't care

[molten sparrow]

And then predict where they go

[lone quiver]

I don't care about the process

[teal frigate]

does it lead to an gamebreaking interaction like jailor?

[lone quiver]

NKs hard lose when they die

[teal frigate]

no?

then basic attack it is

[teal frigate]

unless shenangians of chaos modes

[lone quiver]

It should not be so easy to kill a solo role that hard loses when it dies

[teal frigate]

etc

[lone quiver]

this is like

part of why NKs suck so fucking much

Conj and Rit melt them

3 TKs melt them

2 TPs melt them

[teal frigate]

the uh

[lone quiver]

Vanilla.

[teal frigate]

isnt that just vet

trick vet

oh

[molten sparrow]

Vet, Dep and trick

[teal frigate]

yeah im not smart

[molten sparrow]

But trick can reflect attacks

[lone quiver]

three of the TPows don't give a fuck about defence either

[molten sparrow]

Most NK don't die to their own attacks

[lone quiver]

because Jailor has powerful and Pros/Marsh attack through adding an extra lynch

[molten sparrow]

Only WW and SKs bloodlust

[teal frigate]

ive got a few minor reworks to bg/trapper to make them less of a neutral bullier

[lone quiver]

bg needs more

than a minor rework

[reef fern]

vet too good, nerf needed chat

[lone quiver]

vet isn't too good

it's too messy

[latent umbra]

vet too all over the place

[teal frigate]

well i can boil it down to a few sentences

[molten sparrow]

BG too good, nerf needed

[lone quiver]

veteran has very little control over what it's doing

and BG gets punished for playing the game

but the point being

TK should not have Powerful

it is way too easy to kill an NK

[molten sparrow]

I'm outlining your logic you're literally saying Jailor should be the ONLY one to have powerful attacks

[teal frigate]

• Basic attack now
• Lose guard instead of dying on successful kill
• Players arent notified they are saved
• You can multitask vest and guard

thats pretty much a boiled down bg rework i have

[lone quiver]

It is way too easy to kill an NK and the only way to fix that is that is to remove Powerful attack from Common Town and Coven Killing

Yes some of these roles aren't that good, but that doesn't mean letting them bully NKs is fine

[molten sparrow]

Stop burning the kitchen please

[teal frigate]

#1310447946961260607 not the best

[bronze sonnet]

vet I feel like deserves it a bit, you do have to rely on your opponent attacking you, so its not as easy as "haha funny gun go brr"

[teal frigate]

but yeah

[teal frigate]

why is it bad

elaborate

[bronze sonnet]

like if the NK just, doesn't visit, they live

[lone quiver]

yeah sure but like

[bronze sonnet]

vet duels are fun

[reef fern]

ah yes I get to do nothing instead of dying

[lone quiver]

vet duels are also whack

[bronze sonnet]

its like pirate but with skill

xd

[lone quiver]

imagine going through the whole game

[molten sparrow]

Because whats better than dying than becoming absolutely useless

[lone quiver]

only to lose at the very end

[bronze sonnet]

Skill-based Pirate

[lone quiver]

to a Veteran who can't even win

[molten sparrow]

And lose all ability to confirm

[teal frigate]

better than dying

[teal frigate]

you still killed a player defending

[bronze sonnet]

exactly, most things are better than dying!

[reef fern]

only being there to vote and talk?

[bronze sonnet]

me inhaing @reef fern all day every day

[teal frigate]

yes, thats what we call being social

in an sdg

[bronze sonnet]

its just a deduction game now

[teal frigate]

shocking im aware

[bronze sonnet]

can't have shit in detroit Salem

[reef fern]

so just play werewolf

[teal frigate]

true

[molten sparrow]

But you can provide nothing to the convo now

[bronze sonnet]

brains are not nothing

scumreading exists

[molten sparrow]

True

[teal frigate]

you still killed a player and got full value

and saved a guy

[molten sparrow]

But in a game where literally everyone is supposed to do something

[latent umbra]

no it doesnt

[lone quiver]

Kill power in this game needs to be toned down.

[bronze sonnet]

^^^^^ !!!!

[latent umbra]

its but an illusion

[molten sparrow]

BG having a one time guard is immensely ass

[lone quiver]

yea

i think BG needs to be like

redone from the ground up

[teal frigate]

cleric exists

trapper exists

how so

[lone quiver]

IDK man

there's so much in this game

[teal frigate]

give it an identity while making it unique

[bronze sonnet]

I see someone not get voted for time for a good 20 seconds and deflected off, I push them

[teal frigate]

i went for heavy duty but less downtime than trapper

[lone quiver]

Another rant of "ToS2 didn't need this many roles to begin with" incoming

[latent umbra]

good for you ig

[molten sparrow]

Yes

[bronze sonnet]

my scumreading isn't luck inhales copium

[molten sparrow]

Dep and Pros don't need to exist

[teal frigate]

they didnt

that ship has long sailed

[lone quiver]

but we can't really do anything about it now

[molten sparrow]

:perhaps:

[lone quiver]

it's easy to say "this role is bad and needs an overhaul"

[bronze sonnet]

you opened Pandora's box, and now everythings out @lone quiver

all you've got left is Hope

[latent umbra]

time to suggest town special lights out cigarette

[lone quiver]

but it's much harder to create a new role to slot over the bad role

especially when

[teal frigate]

mystic can i just send you what I have for tk/tp as a whole and I can improve on it later

[lone quiver]

there is only a finite number of healthy niches for each role type to even have

[bronze sonnet]

[teal frigate]

im tired and about to go to bed

i can barely type

[lone quiver]

good night

[molten sparrow]

They should have kept it Pest and War

[teal frigate]

without autocorrect

[sour heart]

did someone say "needs an overhaul"?

[lone quiver]

lmao

[bronze sonnet]

good night Lag, sleep well!

[lone quiver]

did that summon you

[sour heart]

that and any mention of botc Pacifist

[bronze sonnet]

that's how you summon Temp obv

watch

[sour heart]

(nobody here will get that reference)

[bronze sonnet]

"Needs an Overhaul"

[lone quiver]

summon me by saying Deputy is fine, I will come at you screaming like a banshee /j

[bronze sonnet]

I sure do do love leaving my town's executions up to the Storyteller!

that's so much fun....

[sour heart]

Just force your ST to follow the flowchart and you'll be fine

[bronze sonnet]

Make love not war does NOT work when someone has a shotgun pointed at you

[sour heart]

Pacifist is poorly designed but can be run well easily

I designed a flowchart for it

Anyway

[bronze sonnet]

you're at the mercy of the equivalent to the DM.

[sour heart]

This is the most off topic a thread has gotten in a while

[worn aurora]

Ey keep the botc rant on botc!1!1!1!1

[sour heart]

You can also just quit their games if they dont follow the flowchart

[bronze sonnet]

BOTC RANT

oh no I like my DMs

[sour heart]

Thats it

Thats all they need to know

[bronze sonnet]

I just don't like my ability being subject to someone else's opinion

[sour heart]

Its not meant to be

Its meant to be your opinion facilitated through them

As shown in the flowchart

You should be able to test your ability on powerful claims to confirm them

That's the intent of the role

And a good ST will respect that

[bronze sonnet]

fake Pacifist to get the power claims hung nodders

taking notes

📜 🖊️

[worn aurora]

Add poppy grower to tos 2 fr

Most fun gameplay

[oblique badge]

One shot is too little when every other tk can get multiple kills through a game as well. Two is preferable to one. This is just worse deputy

[vernal scarab]

vigi shouldn’t have as much kill power as a jailor

[teal frigate]

this would be the first step in reducing kill power as a whole

i think this would just be dep sidegrade since you can still kill so its harder to fake

[oblique badge]

The first step to reducing kill power should be removing most TP killpower imo, like bg and (un modded) crusader but that's just me

[teal frigate]

bodyguard / trapper is would be too similar to cleric

i am working on those roles though

[oblique badge]

Bodyguard needs a full rework and trapper kills are far less common due to its trigger on any visitor nature. Trapper is fine as is

[teal frigate]

Bodyguard needs to maintain its identity as heavy duty town protective

[warm whale]

no

fuck off

👎

[teal frigate]

trapper is the same thing but more downtime at the cost of being slightly stronger

[warm whale]

would downvote if I could

👎

[oblique badge]

Indeed but killing in exchange for dying sucks to play as and against

[teal frigate]

dying when using your ability is one of the things im addressing

[oblique badge]

I'll have to check that out then brb

[latent umbra]

ideally yes, but i think for the moment reducing the access of kp to tk by a large amount is the first major step

[oblique badge]

Vigi doesn't have the same kp as Jailor with two shots. Vig only has basic attack, while Jailor has unstoppable. Vigi cant kill neuts at all, and has far less info than Jailor does. Two shots is still preferable for me, as one shot is too heavy of a nerf for my tastes

[teal frigate]

independent killers should be maxed at two kills

since vigilante and deputy have the easiest shot conditions

it would make sense to have less potential to make way for other reworks that are harder to hit for a tradeoff of more potential

also vigilante does have same kill power as jailor

both have 3 kills while vigilante might just explode and die itself

[latent umbra]

the state of tk: 3 kills, inf kills, 1 kill, inf kills

[teal frigate]

trickster is infinite kills with a night cooldown

[latent umbra]

but yeah realistically all tk should be capped at 2 kills

[vernal scarab]

trick is technically Infinite kills

[latent umbra]

i was probably thinking older trick

[teal frigate]

even tpow should be capped at 2 kills

[vernal scarab]

veteran on their way to call tp/lo and kill 5 townies and the plaugebearer night 1

(worth)

[teal frigate]

well that is just marshal and jailor

marshal has two and jailor can be nerfed

[vernal scarab]

marshal is technically 2 kills

[teal frigate]

yeah

[latent umbra]

jailor can be nerfed into the floor to make room for better tpow designs

[teal frigate]

vigilante could be tpow if jailor didnt exist

daily reminder

[oblique badge]

Its why I say vig should be two shots instead of 3 or 1

[vale tide]

Vigi being 1 shots means you can cap more conditional tk at 2 kills

[oblique badge]

Would trick just become a tp after two unleashes or would they only get to protect twice

[latent umbra]

i mean

trick is kind of a tp in tk clothing

idk i never felt like we ever needed more then 3 tk so trickster existing is rough

[oblique badge]

Trick wouldn't work off with a limited use ability, unless it would only consume a charge on a successful protect

[teal frigate]

dealing with it shouldn’t exactly be too much of a problem

[latent umbra]

yeah id just prefer the latter being 3 tk

[teal frigate]

just buff it’s consistency and remove its protective capabilities

[latent umbra]

if theres a good design for a 4th tk im all ears

[teal frigate]

yeah

but i don’t want it to protect

otherwise its in the wrong bucket

and trips over cleric and bodyguard

[burnt whale]

this u?

[lone quiver]

2 is still a lot

That’s half the Coven all in one go

Why should one person who isn’t even a TPow be able to basically decide the outcome of the game

Either by shooting a townie and going -2 on the spot or by killing most of the Coven

(Not that TPow should really be able to single-handedly win games either but it’s especially egregious when a CTown does it)

[teal frigate]

question

how would you nerf marshal to not wipe half the coven by killpower

[lone quiver]

Uh

I don’t actually know

Because there’s a very simple answer with a huge “riddle me this Batman” behind it

[teal frigate]

Since marshal isnt an independent killer i dont think it should be one kill

[sour heart]

Why should one person who isn’t even a TPow be able to basically decide the outcome of the game

[lone quiver]

I literally

[sour heart]

I know

[lone quiver]

Addressed that in the very next sentence

[lone quiver]

But anyway
The “obvious” answer is, TPow without kill power
But riddle me this, Batman:
how do you make 5 TPow that don’t kill, are healthy, have varied niches, and aren’t outclassed by TK

[teal frigate]

great question

i think a bandaid solution would be splitting the tpow bucket

wont solve every problem (especially in chaos modes)

but its a start

[lone quiver]

So like

Mayor/Mon in one bucket

Pros/Marsh/Jailor in another?

[teal frigate]

btos2 pros with mayor

but yeah

kpow tpow in a different bucket

[lone quiver]

I’m a vanilla hoe

Unfortunately the snafu with reclassifying roles makes this a hard sell

[teal frigate]

yeah

[lone quiver]

It would certainly mitigate slot swing

[teal frigate]

wouldnt solve core issues

[lone quiver]

Yeah.

[teal frigate]

ill get cracking on tpow then

[lone quiver]

Like Deputy Marshal and Prosecutor being

The absolute worst

-# /lies but they’re pretty bad

[teal frigate]

making tpow exclusive would help right

like no prosecutor and marshal

(this would mean they need to be equal strength)

[lone quiver]

Deputy existing and being legally not TPow throws a monkey wrench into that plan

[teal frigate]

deputy needs change

im not letting deputy hold the whole game back

[lone quiver]

FR

But they tried to actually fix Dep

[burnt whale]

voting for president ^^

[lone quiver]

And then it was ratio’d because why would you ever want it over Vigilante

.-.

[teal frigate]

this post aims to kill vig with hammers

so that wouldnt be an issue

[lone quiver]

Well not kill it

But certainly beat it up

With hammers

[teal frigate]

you know what i mean

[devout forum]

Hey look 1 shot Vigi as much as the power manic in me is sad this is so much better it’s not funny

A kill is stupidly strong

[lone quiver]

Yeah you liked it when I said it in official server

:D

[devout forum]

Exactly

I generally think many people are going to be really unhappy with biting the bullet (singular bullet heh) of this nerf now but like grow up

Someone actually said it would be as bad as coroner?

[lone quiver]

Saana

[devout forum]

Really

[lone quiver]

Yes

[teal frigate]

i believe that

[burnt whale]

yes because i hate it when coroner kills their examine target

[teal frigate]

🤡

[devout forum]

No no they gotta point statistically TKs suck right guys right?

Doth dumb people and hangman

[latent umbra]

why is coroner always the target for these type of points

[lone quiver]

Because of how awful it used to be

[devout forum]

I’m being sarcastic I realize that doesn’t convey properly over text

[lone quiver]

But anyway

[latent umbra]

why not old vanilla tos2 investigator

that was honestly worse

[lone quiver]

Because at the time it wasn’t

Coroner

Was actually so fucking bad in Alpha

Like holy shit

[latent umbra]

oh damn i think i mustve started playing after coro got changed then but inves was still pretty much the same

[lone quiver]

Couldn’t autopsy stoned corpses
Didn’t get the role of the killer
Autopsy was a night ability so you weren’t doing anything until N3 at best

[burnt whale]

they think coroner can autopsy alive people

[teal frigate]

exists in the same game as seer 💀

[devout forum]

Also it wasn’t immune to Enchanter/Illu so finally when you did get to do something it could be messed with

[lone quiver]

Vigilante is bad in AA because there’s a billion Neutrals and Hangman exists

Literally just

Put Apoc cap on and make Neutrals unique

And Vigi is automatically so much better

[latent umbra]

whats apoc cap

[burnt whale]

old apocs

[lone quiver]

It’s not remotely bad in any set list mode

[latent umbra]

is that just mutually exclusive apoc

[burnt whale]

only 1 could spawn at a time

yes

[devout forum]

I also feel like for as strong as Jailor and Marshal are the Town of Neutrals makes them even stronger by proxy

Because they can actually kill them

[latent umbra]

people who dont want nk unique are so funny cause the amount of times ive seen 2 werewolves fuck eachother over

[burnt whale]

is it weird that i win as double ww more than any plural amount of other NKs

[latent umbra]

but yeah i think for all any the process really just starts with making it so 5 serial killers 50 werewolves and a pirate cant all spawn in the same game

[lone quiver]

Lmao

[latent umbra]

probably

[lone quiver]

But yeah the point tho

[burnt whale]

but anyways

[lone quiver]

Was that Vigilante is “bad” in vanilla just because Neutrals are more prevalent in AA

In a game mode where the majority of evils are Coven

Vigilante is busted

[burnt whale]

NKs non unique = bad ☹️

they are specifically balanced around it

[lone quiver]

But yea

[devout forum]

I remember I used to be of the opinion that 1 shot Vigi was weak then I played some ranked

Holy shirtballs

Vigi was bonkers in ranked

Trial by fire

[lone quiver]

Especially when you consider that Vigilante

Is not unique

And having multiple of them, you really get to feel the diminishing returns because you have more kills than there are people you can kill with it

[sour heart]

diminishing returns
That's a weird way to stay instant victory

[lone quiver]

What I mean by that is

The second vigilante

Is kinda superfluous

And will often kill itself because who tf are you shooting

[teal frigate]

[lone quiver]

The other Vigi can basically solo the Coven by themself, they don’t need you

In ToS1 Ranked Vigilante also kinda had this issue

Where you didn’t really need the Vigilante because Jailor was guaranteed and had 3 kills

[teal frigate]

jailor was a monster in tos1

[lone quiver]

But that one was mitigated by the fact that Jailor could reliably kill the NE/NK while Vigilante couldn’t, so there was less overlap

Jailor is still a monster it just doesn’t show up in like

Every set list

[teal frigate]

yeah

[lone quiver]

Oh also Vigilante was useful for getting Jailor out of a bind if the Consort decided to be extra annoying

[sour heart]

Lookout:

https://tenor.com/view/jack-tanamen-gecky-incorporeal-gif-21102682

[teal frigate]

me when lookout didnt spawn and town lost the diceroll

[lone quiver]

^

But yeah

You run into the “3 bullets isn’t even necessary” moment very quickly

[devout forum]

I’m still confused how there are people who think TK is a weak bucket

[latent umbra]

town being able to kill at night at all is incredibly powerful

😭

[teal frigate]

powercreep moment of all time

[maiden delta]

there isnt neccassarily a weak bucket each bucket serves at least one role that has powercreep or just flawed

[lone quiver]

Vigilante - hard outclassed by Jailor
Veteran - was nerfed in the game transition (although people don't realize how strong multiple vets is)
Trickster - Doesn't belong in TK at all and can cause a lot of problems if it's your only TK spawn
Deputy - hard outclassed by Prosecutor

The things that make TK a strong bucket now are more abstract and indirect

like having more of them, and being less of a free kill due to VFA