Jester Rework V2 - Noah

[lime imp]

Jester

** Attack:** None
** Defense:** Basic (Lost after N1)
_ & _ - "Your target puts on a façade to deceive others. They must be a Jester !"

Abilities:

• Put on an Act of evil pretending to be any player.
• Haunt the town as consequence for lynching you.

Act - ( 🌙 & ♾️ )

• Pretend to be evil by putting on an Act.

• You may Act as any evil to perform onto a player.

• This ability cannot effect the player however it will act if it did clearing their results.

• Abilities with status effect will appear till your death.

Haunt - ( Passive )

• Upon your lynch you may Haunt the town speeding the game up.
• You may also Haunt other players who have guiltied roleblocking them.

Attributes:

• You passively appear as a Town Member regardless of putting on an Act.
• Your Basic Defense will be lost after N1
• You cannot Act as: Ritualist or Horsemen

Win Conditions:

• You win when you've been lynched.

Specific Interactions:

• If an Admirer visits your target they be granted the notification that they blocked an evil ability.
• If a Spy visits your target they will see the role you've Acted as.
• If you Act as a role that has killed that night all effects of that killer will come onto you instead however, after done cannot be done consecutively.

[feral cypress]

Downvote off the principle that Jester still sucks as a role and this rework makes it worse in that regard

[lime imp]

why?

[tawny knot]

1. Putting on an act makes Jester even more indistinguishable from other evils

[feral cypress]

It’s still an evil who punishes town for eliminating it

Those shouldn’t exist

[lime imp]

that's the point though, theres a reason why it appears as town to rely on act to achieve said goal

[tawny knot]

yeah but like

it's still a pain

[feral cypress]

So you’re telling me punishing the town who’s actively trying to social read evils rather than crutching themselves on TI is a good thing

?

[tawny knot]

I think Noah is operating under the pretense that Jester's never going to go away, or be substantially reworked/overhauled
But this doesn't even pretend to mitigate its issues

[lime imp]

Jester can't exactly go away

if pirate cant leave neither can jester

[feral cypress]

Hence why I said my downvote was on principle

[lime imp]

Jester's entire point is careful who you lynch otherwise you face the consequences, but death is too harsh hence why people dislike jester

and also the fact jester is basically a survivor acting pretty till theyre on the stand

[patent pendant]

jester only makes sense if you know one exists thou

in mafiascum games where jester/fool exists

you know it's there

[feral cypress]

The issue with Jest is

[patent pendant]

so you know how to play around it

jest here it's just

[feral cypress]

It can be in any game where it can spawn

That

[patent pendant]

socially read an evil

[feral cypress]

Is what makes it problematic

[patent pendant]

get Rule 5'd in the rule 5

commit serveral crimes to cope

hop back on

the cycle never stops

[lime imp]

huh

[tawny knot]

And the issue with that is "be careful who you lynch" is a nonsensical thing to have to play around

An evil

that punishes you

for correctly scumreading it as evil

is bad

The punishment is not the problem

It's that the thing it is punishing you for is bad

[lime imp]

so act is a problem?

[tawny knot]

yes

but also

Jester itself is a problem

you're trying to polish a turd

[lime imp]

Because that turd has gold in it that can still be harvested

[tawny knot]

no

it fucking doesn't

[lime imp]

why the turd analogy 😭

[median fulcrum]

you would not be a good prospector

[lime imp]

Anyway, Jester like every neutral evil has a issue that has been stated from the start and that is 1. it punishes town for doing their job

[patent pendant]

no?

that's only jests issue

[median fulcrum]

executioner and inquisitor (technically)

[feral cypress]

You’re confusing gold with bits of corn that the BMG cow ate two weeks earlier

[patent pendant]

doomsayer punishes tpow

[lime imp]

they brought up the turd analogy not me

[median fulcrum]

punish town for mislynching

[patent pendant]

and exe punishes mislynches

jester puniches town for...

correct lynching???

makes no sense

[median fulcrum]

well both attempt to distrust it

[shell loom]

this doesn't seem to solve any issues

it seems as if it creates more

[feral cypress]

Not in btos2

[patent pendant]

true 99% jester is random lynched

lmao

[median fulcrum]

or that

its so obviously evil

and you cant help it because what if its warlock

[tawny knot]

The idiom "You can't polish a turd" is used to describe trying to tweak an inherently flawed thing
You can't change the nature of Jester by tweaking the punishment for lynching it, the fact that it punishes you for lynching it makes it rotten to the core

[patent pendant]

yeah this is why i don't think jester can work

without massive

[jester fucking exists]

message

but yet that would be lame as fuck

and would barely help anything

[tawny knot]

even then it's like

[median fulcrum]

every evil on their way to claim jester

[tawny knot]

you still can't really tell who's jestering

and who's the actual evil

Jester is a matchup-check more than anything

In a game where the matchups are random

if Town has access to TKs that can dispatch it, then it's "fine" in heavy quotation marks

but not even really

[patent pendant]

yeah that' would be the issue that would arrise

[median fulcrum]

me when arbitrary counters are needed to make sure a role isn’t toxic

[patent pendant]

surv but even more stupid

[median fulcrum]

ok what if the jailor dies

[tawny knot]

it's just "jester gets hard countered because dep/jailor exists" or "jester hard counters town because dep/jailor doesn't exist"

[lime imp]

is that- not the point?? neutral evil is meant to sabotage the town

[tawny knot]

no

NE is meant to be played around

the issue is

the thing you are playing around with Jester

is noxious

Doomsayer is meant to be played around by not hard claiming or revealing until you have to

Executioner is meant to be played around by examining the claims of people who make a TI push and making a judgement call on which ones are real or fake

Jester is also meant to be played around, by not lynching people who are too scummy...
But this doesn't really work because of the wide overlap between Jesters and bad/throwing/off-their-game evils

(And like, someone is too evil so you can't lynch them? What? it's kind of a nonsense thing to play around)

[patent pendant]

what?

[median fulcrum]

what if the jailor dies

and you can no longer kill the jester

[patent pendant]

wait

[median fulcrum]

simple as

[hushed trellis]

jester legit punishes town

[lime imp]

wym

[hushed trellis]

for playing well

[patent pendant]

jester loses defence after n1

says as so

[hushed trellis]

if you hang an evil everyday and you hang a jester you are now punished for hanging someone against your majority

[median fulcrum]

💀

[patent pendant]

what?

[hushed trellis]

theres a reason the meta in ranked was to hang the jester

[lime imp]

yeah doing their job

[hushed trellis]

it literally didn't hurt you whatsoever

because you're killing an evil and they can also now kill an evil for you

[lime imp]

wym 💀 jester shouldnt be able to have defense in any other case

[hushed trellis]

like deadass

[median fulcrum]

me when i get haunted as nk by mislynching anyone but me

[hushed trellis]

no neutral evil should punish a team for playing correctly

[patent pendant]

ok wrong
it could hurt you
It just had the chance to hurt the other side

[tawny knot]

Me when I get haunted as NK, I thought the scummy guy was Coven

[hushed trellis]

it is OBJECTIVELY the best play for all evils

and town

to hang a jester

[shell loom]

me getting haunted as VM for executing a possible threat

[hushed trellis]

this is wrong

lets say its 6v4

if you hang a jester

its 6v3

sure 2 townies can die

[patent pendant]

or a 5v4

[hushed trellis]

it still 4v3

[hushed trellis]

then u wouldn't hang the jester then

???

common sense blossom

[patent pendant]

gambling?

[tawny knot]

Yeah that's the problem

[lime imp]

im confused here this is my point

[patent pendant]

what?

[hushed trellis]

you literally are better off hanging the evil

or an evil

[lime imp]

doing their job = playing well

[tawny knot]

You "don't hang the Jester", but the "Jester" you didn't hang is the Hex Master and now you lose

[hushed trellis]

you actually have a better chance at randomly hanging an evil than hanging the jester then

[patent pendant]

@hushed trellis your hangin the jester for the chance to kill an evil unless they are specifcally teaming with town

[hushed trellis]

this is the other problem

[leaden nest]

I saw the thing on the C, I immediately wanted to upvote. then I read the rest of it.

[hushed trellis]

if you hang the jester in a 5v4 you are nearly guaranteed to lose

[patent pendant]

so in a 6v4
it either a 6v3
or a 5v4

[hushed trellis]

theres more townies than evil

[patent pendant]

no

AFTER the jester kills

[patent pendant]

.

[hushed trellis]

brother

[patent pendant]

jester doens't just kill evils bruh

[hushed trellis]

if its a 6v3 and the jester kills a townie its 4v3

[lime imp]

Lmao

wait whats the c

[hushed trellis]

the fuck is 5v4 from

[leaden nest]

facade

[patent pendant]

im only fucking considering the jester kill there

bruh

[lime imp]

oh

lol

[hushed trellis]

thats

not how the game works when u hang a jester

but okay

[patent pendant]

yes i know i am just simplifying it

damn bruh

[shell loom]

there is expected to be a kill

every night

[patent pendant]

ofc if the jester kills a town it's 4v4 lmao

[hushed trellis]

baam wrong again

i literally gave you all the math

and you're still getting it wrong

[shell loom]

everyone suffers math class

[patent pendant]

6v4 -> 4v4 or 5v3 after evil kills?

wait

[hushed trellis]

if it is a 6v4 and you hang a jester

if two townies die it is 4v3

[patent pendant]

ARE YOU F UCKING TOTALING JESTER WITH THE FUCKING TOTAL SCUM POOL?

[hushed trellis]

jester is an evi

[patent pendant]

BRO NO

NO

BRO???

[tawny knot]

YES WHY WOULDN’T YOU

[hushed trellis]

if you get into a 4v4 with town 3 cov and a jester

that JESTER

[patent pendant]

6V4V1

[tawny knot]

IS IT A TOWNIE NOW?

[hushed trellis]

IS SIDING EVILS

LMAOO

[patent pendant]

6V4V1

[hushed trellis]

WHAT

[patent pendant]

6V4V1

[deft vortex]

That's the whole point of Jester, Jester is meant to attempt to act evil to be social read as an evil, and if town falls for the trick, which a good town will be able to notice, they get punished.

[hushed trellis]

NO JESTER IS SIDING TOWN IN SPLIT MAJORITY

[leaden nest]

egotist when dead is a terrible idea

[tawny knot]

Yes but it’s a bad point

[hushed trellis]

0 jester who isnt DEADASS gamethrowing

[shell loom]

I mean people claim Jester, I heard you are meant to claim town roles

[hushed trellis]

is siding town in equal majority

[leaden nest]

getting punished for thinking outside of "9 sus" is a bad idea

TIs should be supplements to finding evils, not the main course

[deft vortex]

Getting punished for only thinking "9 sus" is what Jester doss

[leaden nest]

9 sus as in Sheriff

[hushed trellis]

bro what

[tawny knot]

no it's not amigo

[hushed trellis]

that is terrible fucking game design

[leaden nest]

or whatever

[patent pendant]

no the point is that bruh when im doing evil math i don't go fucking

"oh it's a 8v7" no it's a 8v3v3+1 for DTT

[deft vortex]

That's why Jest should not be sus.

[lime imp]

doesnt appear as that here

[tawny knot]

do you know how many times I've hanged a Jester because they were quiet

[patent pendant]

@hushed trellis

[lime imp]

yeah jest is appearing as townie

[tawny knot]

Because their will didn't line up

[leaden nest]

I realized that approximately 3 seconds after I posted

[shell loom]

being detection immune doesn't help its case

[tawny knot]

Because they didn't claim in VFA

[deft vortex]

Yeah Jest appearing town is important.

[shell loom]

Jester is a purely social role

[leaden nest]

the whole point of jester is that TIs can find you out, but you can trick the town via social

[shell loom]

it was bad in ToS1

[lime imp]

yeah the point of Act is to act as an evil as convincing as you can

[shell loom]

(funny how it's the only role who can't be reported for being afk)

[lime imp]

despite the downside being people can claim jest as evil but like its not really that fakable.?

[hushed trellis]

the evils can win together

[patent pendant]

@hushed trellis ok so it's a fuckin 6 townies, 3 evils and 1 jester
why can't the jester just betray the evils anyway?
i mean yeah sure it allows the evils to go form 6v3 -> 4v3 which is wayyy more winnable
but idk what stops the jest form just going 6v3 -> 5v2 lmao

[hushed trellis]

bro

can u not ping

[leaden nest]

I mean, that's why I always put something in my will like "silent strat never fails" or smth

[hushed trellis]

when I'm literally reading the chat

goddamn

[patent pendant]

you stopped talking for like 5 minutes

[lime imp]

"Hey im jester im gonna act as witch to you"

Vigi: Okay and still shoots the "Jester"

[hushed trellis]

the jester will lose 9 times out of 10 because the town will ignore them

[shell loom]

yeah it's true it never does

which is another reason why Jester is awful

[hushed trellis]

if you actually believe a town is gonna vote you and possibly LOSE when they can outright win

you're delusional

[shell loom]

even the social aspect has failed

[patent pendant]

what? that was assuming town doesn't know who the jester is

why woudn't you lynch there

[tawny knot]

The main reason people actually like Jester is because it gives them a free pass to do whatever the fuck they want

[leaden nest]

the whole point is that you're easily found out if a TI finds you

[patent pendant]

it's just town got unlucky and killed the jester

[patent pendant]

no

[leaden nest]

and being able to imitate evils

is just not good

[patent pendant]

mechinal dedection is ass

jester should be 100% social

[leaden nest]

especially the "attacker" part

[tawny knot]

The whole point is that Jester doesn't work even if it looks like Town to all TI

[patent pendant]

still doesn't make jester a good idea thou

[feral cypress]

The only way to make Jester even remotely work would be making it like a BOTC Goblin

[shell loom]

the whole game isn't centered around TIs anyways

[feral cypress]

Where you have to call a bluff rather than consider it for every suspect

[shell loom]

it's a social game

[feral cypress]

And even then

[hushed trellis]

yeah

[feral cypress]

That makes it barely functional

Not good

So its not even worth the effort

[patent pendant]

ok but then it would have to be a NS because holy shit

[hushed trellis]

so when survivor does it..

it's bad

[tawny knot]

Survivor is just boring

[hushed trellis]

but when jester does it, it's a okay

[feral cypress]

Survivor had no reason to exist

[tawny knot]

they don't get a pass to do whatever

[hushed trellis]

Jester is equally as boring

[tawny knot]

because they get hanged

and lose

[hushed trellis]

it's literally Jester but without the punishment

[lime imp]

I mean its one time thing for a reason

[tawny knot]

Survivor forced you into one really boring meta

if you wanted to lvie

[hushed trellis]

I would claim Mayor

[lime imp]

whats golem again btw

[patent pendant]

surv only makes sense in mafiascum

[leaden nest]

Survivor's idea was a cool one imo, something that can side with ANY faction. The exectution of the idea, though.....

[hushed trellis]

nominats once per game

[patent pendant]

.

[hushed trellis]

if you nominate the demon nothing happens else they die

[sterile shard]

It does not fucking make sense in forum mafia

[leaden nest]

kills if demon?

[hushed trellis]

opposite

[patent pendant]

fr?

[hushed trellis]

kills if not demon

[leaden nest]

oh other way

[hushed trellis]

but you can only nominate once ever

[leaden nest]

its an Outsider tho, yes?

[hushed trellis]

yes

[lime imp]

yes

[sterile shard]

Imagine fuckin signing up for a ~2 week game and you roll survivor

[leaden nest]

so it hurts town?

[hushed trellis]

it isn't really an outsider

it's used as a townsfolk

"can you kill this guy he's suspicious"

[tawny knot]

lmao

[leaden nest]

go get a coffee, its gonna be a while

xd

[hushed trellis]

id be somewhat happy

just cause I can claim whatever and not care about the outcome of the game

I was an NE/NP in a multi day a while back

[sterile shard]

Generally there is far more investment in a longform game so people will probably be really annoyed with a survivor playing like this lol

At least in dedicated longform spaces like forums

[tawny knot]

There was a recent game

I was Serial Killer
2 claimed Spy
On D2 2 said someone was plagued
On D3 they said their bug never triggered
I pointed out that this was bullshit
We push 2 to get hanged
They are Jester
I get haunted and die (after being protected from the Coven by a Crusader, so I was doing well)

And this is why Jester is bad
This guy wasn't found by any other TI
Their own claim was just bad in a way that could have been quite literally fucking anything
And no amount of tweaks to Jester's model is going to make that not feel awful

[leaden nest]

yeah, it's a constant guess

"are you fake fake?"

"are you fake TRYING to look fake?"

[tawny knot]

And what was I

as the SK

supposed to do there

[leaden nest]

and you don't know until the revenge message pops up

[leaden nest]

kill them at night ig

thats all I can think of

[tawny knot]

MFW vest

also

Remember I was the one who brought up in the first place that it was fake
So it'd look very sus to inno it after that point

So like it's basically saying I should either:
A: not scumread as NK, because if the guy I scumread is Jester and not Coven I've fucked myself

B: inno everything as NK in case it might be Jester

Neither of which are exactly conducive to winning the video game in the long run

[leaden nest]

yep, its a sophie's choice

damned if you do, damned if you don't

[tawny knot]

And Temp's new Psychic is gonna make that worse if it gets in, which is so fun :D

-# This is not a knock on Temp's Psychic, I just hate Jester

[sterile shard]

Did tuba ever pitch that on stream are you sure that's likely to get in

[tawny knot]

I don't know

I said if

[sterile shard]

Fair

He usually pitches upcoming reworks on stream tho

To gauge opinions

[tawny knot]

i haven't caught a tuba stream in time to see the proposed reworks in
a while

[sterile shard]

Same

😭

[tawny knot]

but yea

I hate Jester

I hate everything about it

I want it to burn

[lime imp]

we can tell

[tawny knot]

But so many people love Jester

that it's most likely gonna be a toxic influence on the game forever

[lime imp]

Anyway since this idea doesn't work I'll close it later

[hushed trellis]

cough cough Pirate

[tawny knot]

I mean

Pirate is at least beloathed enough that it could see a rework

assuming the community comes to a consensus about what NE should be as a slot

[hushed trellis]

the causal community will complain

me and you both know that the casual vs competitive community will always have one side be unhappy with this game

[tawny knot]

The casual community doesn't love Pirate nearly to the same degree that they love Jester

[tawny knot]

If Pirate were thrown into the sun, the casual community would get over it
If Jester were thrown into the sun, there would be riots at DB's headquarters in a week.

[hushed trellis]

people would quit if Pirate was removed

[sterile shard]

Jester is everywhere within the SDG online sphere where Pirate is kinda a silly funny
Jester is so much more iconic that if it died uh. Yeah what mystic said

[hushed trellis]

it's just people would riot if jest was removed

[sterile shard]

I kinda got similar pushback when I wanted to change Fool in my ToL days

Because fool was. Fucking awful to play against as BD 😔

[hushed trellis]

what's

oh blue dragon

[sterile shard]

Blue dragon tm

[tawny knot]

Wow almost like Jester being awful to play against as Town (unless you happen to have the counter roles spawn)

Almost like this situation has happened before

[leaden nest]

damn I can't put Jester sticker

[sterile shard]

Best part
Besides Prince (a guaranteed spawn), the only reliable counter role was also the biggest mislynch bait in the game (and both can’t shoot until n3)

[tawny knot]

Hunter?

[hushed trellis]

Prince is such a role of all time

[tawny knot]

Prince is literally a copy/paste of ToS1 Jailor

[hushed trellis]

it's funny how a near 1-1 copy of Jailor is still worse than Jailor

[tawny knot]

and despite having very few abilities

it's one of the strongest roles in ToL

when most ToL roles are packed with abilities

[hushed trellis]

goes to show how broken Jailor is

[tawny knot]

This is called power creep, btw

[sterile shard]

Knight

[tawny knot]

right

but like

Jester/Fool being reliant on a counter role to mitigate it, is kind of a problem in and of itself

[sterile shard]

Yep

[hushed trellis]

they should've made two good teams in ToL

[tawny knot]

And while ToL didn't really have an All Any
ToS does and always has

So "just make the counters guaranteed 4Head" doesn't work

[hushed trellis]

all any is the worst gamemode ever

[sterile shard]

Didn’t matter anyway
Princes in Cult games tended to explode. Very easily

[tawny knot]

I care a lot about All Any

[hushed trellis]

i dont

[sterile shard]

Because scum transporter

[hushed trellis]

id party if it got deleted

[hushed trellis]

what

i must be blind

SCUM transporter??

[tawny knot]

ToL Ritualist

which was the cult version of any TS role

[hushed trellis]

did MTT transporter not show people that shit like that shouldn't exist??

[sterile shard]

ToL ritualist and ToL sage

[hushed trellis]

i know it was a convertee

but why

[sterile shard]

Because it needed to be able to reliably fake CW

[tawny knot]

Because that's how conversion works

[hushed trellis]

whats cw

[sterile shard]

Full feedback game moment

Court wizard

[hushed trellis]

that shit is ass

[tawny knot]

Well, yes

[hushed trellis]

if roles are that power crept

[sterile shard]

Main reason is that it has a transporter

[hushed trellis]

transporter is unironically the best support role ever created i think

[tawny knot]

this is why I never really got into ToL: I don't like conversion

[hushed trellis]

theres no situation where transporter is bad

[sterile shard]

A cool role
…that has a transporter stapled onto it

[tawny knot]

only situations where transporter is

[sterile shard]

Anyway

[tawny knot]

annoying as fuck

[hushed trellis]

when its annoying its probably like

S tier

theres no reason transporter shouldve won a 1v1 vs a mafioso btw

to stalemate detector

[sterile shard]

Transporter is annoying as fuck
And when its not hyper confirmable like in tos and tol its also even more swingy because now you need to believe the transporter

[hushed trellis]

that might be the worst interaction ever conceived

[tawny knot]

disagree

the worst interaction ever concieved

is Witch being able to stunlock an Arsonist

[hushed trellis]

oh true

oh my god that is actually worse yea

[sterile shard]

In terms of tos yeah thats bad lol

[hushed trellis]

imagine being unable to play the game as a solo killer

cause the broken role found you once

[sterile shard]

me trying to remember cursed as fuck tol interactions

[hushed trellis]

you actually just become covens plaything

they can do whatever they want whenever they want to you pretty much

[sterile shard]

You know
Besides reaper surviving the ability that says “you die no matter what, no questions asked”

Anyway have we beaten the jester horse enough yet

[tawny knot]

No

This is still a Jester thread

;P

[sterile shard]

True!

[tawny knot]

but like anyways you can't really solve Jester on its own

Jester has independent issues, no doubt

but it's stuck dealing with the fact that every NE role is bad

[hushed trellis]

lets just delete jester

[tawny knot]

So you have to first answer what the fuck you are doing with NE as a slot

[tawny knot]

Can't

[hushed trellis]

lets rebrand all NE to NC

[leaden nest]

doom fills its role tbh

[hushed trellis]

and make actual NE

how about that

[sterile shard]

It says something when my home forum’s solution to Fool was to change its wincon to “don’t let more than 2 non-Town other than you die by execution”

[hushed trellis]

as a neutral chaos yeah

[leaden nest]

like its designed to make people second-guess fullclaiming

[hushed trellis]

as a 10th townie

hell yes

doomsayer is the best 10th townie of all time

[tawny knot]

lol

[hushed trellis]

S2 doomsayer meta was so bad

i dont even know why they thought that change was okay

im convinced BMG never tested any of the shit they added to the game

[sterile shard]

Doomsayer just generically isnt gonna be great as its job because they want it to be able to guess scum

[patent pendant]

wait what

what was teh doomsayer change in S2?

i forget

[sterile shard]

and TI guessing but. Different discussion that is not relevang

[tawny knot]

for literally ONE patch

Doomsayer was changed to only kill 1 role

and not all 3

[sterile shard]

For one patch
Doomsayer only killed 1 target

It got reverted SO FAST

[tawny knot]

this was changed very quickly because everyone immediately realized how bad it was

[patent pendant]

OH YEAH LMAOOOOOOO

[sterile shard]

Almost as fast as basic defense amne

[hushed trellis]

and it still outed the other roles

that was so fucking hilarious dude

that might have been downright the WORST change in town of salem ranked history

other than getting rid of NA in ranked i suppose

[tawny knot]

Actually "getting rid of NA in Ranked" was

fine

[hushed trellis]

No it was not

[tawny knot]

because RN was an awful slot

[hushed trellis]

they're now no longer balancing NA ever

the roles literally have been altered slightly once

and that was the baker buff

PB got the worst rework of all time

[patent pendant]

and that was curtis

[hushed trellis]

which just now is starting to come back as a good rework cause of the metas

[hushed trellis]

exactly

[tawny knot]

Well gee if only the balance community cared about the mode where Apoc actually spawned in...

[feral cypress]

The Baker buff just turned it into a strictly better PM

Also ngl

Might be a hot take

[hushed trellis]

thats

[feral cypress]

But Curtis isn't a great balancer

[hushed trellis]

not how baker works in vanilla temporary

[tawny knot]

^

[digital fjord]

What was the baker buff again

[hushed trellis]

its the same but if everyone alive is breaded

you become famine anyways

[feral cypress]

I meant btos2

[tawny knot]

The baker buff makes it not starve

[shell loom]

I have noticed

[hushed trellis]

so in a 1v2 you become famine

oh yea

[sterile shard]

Baker buff in vanilla is no self kill

[patent pendant]

better than BMG atleast

[hushed trellis]

btos2 baker is kinda eh

[digital fjord]

Right

[feral cypress]

I see you're talking about vanilla

[hushed trellis]

i was confused because you just randomly jumped to btos lol

[shell loom]

NAs are just kind of bad in comparison to NKs

[hushed trellis]

hes

questionable

[hushed trellis]

eh

[sterile shard]

My problem isnt with curtis it’s with people who hail all of tuba’s/curtis’s ideas as the best ideas ever made

[shell loom]

except Berserker exclusively

[hushed trellis]

id say S1 SC and Bers were on par or better

[digital fjord]

🤨

[hushed trellis]

it was PB and Baker that were shit

[hushed trellis]

i will admit some of their shit is ass

but i mean i admit that to everyone

[shell loom]

oh I don't think SC is bad but its horseman is just pretty

unfair

[digital fjord]

Nobody is perfect. Is that really a shocker?

[hushed trellis]

nope

im not either

[sterile shard]

Course not. Even I make terribad setup decisions

[feral cypress]

His favorite role is Oracle

[sterile shard]

Have had to scrap roles before

[hushed trellis]

Oracle needs a rework

nunny it was a cool idea

[digital fjord]

People are hyper critical of their decisions because they’re the ones in charge nobody would care that much otherwise

[hushed trellis]

but man does it suck in practice

[feral cypress]

Oracle was a half baked idea

[digital fjord]

Hello

[feral cypress]

Cool targeting

But its just a Cleric

A bad one

[hushed trellis]

also hello nunny

[digital fjord]

Goodbye

[feral cypress]

No don't go

[hushed trellis]

LMAO

[feral cypress]

https://tenor.com/view/fade-away-oooooooooooo-aga-emoji-crumble-gif-20008708

[hushed trellis]

#1299048123003310090

i have a slight cleric rework as well

it gets rid of self protect though

i dont think it needs to actually so i might go back and change it

anyways

final thoughts jester bad

[tawny knot]

Yeah, combined that with the seasonal model

Which basically demands that every change or rework knocks it out of the park on the first go

otherwise it's stuck like that for...

How long has it been, 5 months?

Nearly 6?

[sterile shard]

always found the seasonal model odd for this game

[tawny knot]

It has its strengths, but it demands a margin of error that no developer can realistically achieve

[hushed trellis]

this game needs mid season patches

like overwatch

deadass it would solve at least 25% of the issues

[gentle pawn]

good

if theyre not scared to do it then thatd be great

[tawny knot]

unfortunately we don't know what they're doing until S4 patch comes out

[warm parcel]

Only read part of the comments about how jest punishes town for playing correctly but it's even worse. It has a random chance to instead reward town for playing badly.

Lynched a jester? Oh never mind they haunted coven and you got rewarded for your misplay.

I like that this rework at least attempts to fix that, but yeah jest has multiple issues all stacked together to make it suck as a role

Oh god just realised how long that message was LOL

[hushed trellis]

ive talked to curt a little it seems interesting

[tawny knot]

You mean a random chance to reward town for playing correctly

[hushed trellis]

^

[digital fjord]

To be fair, the game did pretty much explode internally

[hushed trellis]

hanging an evil as town is playing correctly

[gentle pawn]

anyways i havent read anything above

i just see a jest rework where the wincon and everything is the same

so

[leaden nest]

https://tenor.com/view/server-is-fine-burn-fire-spongebob-blow-gif-14178373

[gentle pawn]

instinctive downvote

[lime imp]

literally what else do we do with jester

[leaden nest]

chomebooks with more than 5 tabs open ^

[gentle pawn]

change the wincon at the least

[leaden nest]

exactly, someone gets it xd

[onyx perch]

ego jester rework is um

debateable

[gentle pawn]

jester condition doesnt work

[lime imp]

if you win everyone dies

done

[tawny knot]

boom, NS Jester

[warm parcel]

That's the lunishment, not the wincon

[onyx perch]

TBH jester should be unique

[lime imp]

unique 100% original

[tawny knot]

we going back to old FM with that one

[onyx perch]

and it should be like among us jester

[warm parcel]

So real

Townofus time!

[lime imp]

fool

[tawny knot]

:(

rude

[lime imp]

not you this fool

[hushed trellis]

REAL

[lime imp]

: P

[gentle pawn]

i agree with this in the sense that current jester is unsalvageable

im willing to prove this stereotype right

[tawny knot]

real

I am too

[lime imp]

ok if you make a decent wincon for jester I will uh

idk

[warm parcel]

Anyway my only thoughts on how to change jest wincon without just creating an entire new role would be to make it have to do something, then get lynched.

No clue what that thing would be, but preferably something that gives town a way to find out a jester exists

[lime imp]

just make jester into clown 😄

[tawny knot]

You could always do the Pariah project
https://discord.com/channels/1110363758792036352/1311021701001252906

Merge NE with NP

[lime imp]

I did pariah executioner

brandon was not pleased

[tawny knot]

Brandon can--

[hushed trellis]

lol

[lime imp]

https://discord.com/channels/1110363758792036352/1299570779025047582

[gentle pawn]

reskin ne as np?

[tawny knot]

yeah

The thing is you kinda have to do it all at once

[gentle pawn]

https://tenor.com/view/me-atrapaste-es-cine-its-cinema-cinema-esto-es-cine-gif-12869046600151364058

[lime imp]

For every execution done correct you benefit the evils

[patent pendant]

locked

[tawny knot]

otherwise slot swing is a massive bitch

[hushed trellis]

NE should be NC

and we should make NE the actual NP

[patent pendant]

...

NC is NS

?

[hushed trellis]

wrong

NS is literally roles that change the game

no NC role changed the game in tos1 besides i guess pirate

and pirate is NE here

[patent pendant]

...

[lime imp]

Perhaps I'll renew it and post it here

[patent pendant]

btos1 NC

[hushed trellis]

so obviously thats not the sentiment of NC

or NS

[patent pendant]

had jackal and vamp

[hushed trellis]

so when we're talking about vanilla

and you bring up btos

how do you feel

[tawny knot]

:...

[hushed trellis]

tos players can never read to comprehend man

[gentle pawn]

lmfao

its

[lime imp]

i need to make a sticker for that

[hushed trellis]

name it

"TOS players reading"

[leaden nest]

maybe an exe-like thing where you get a role or player (I think which would always be town) and after they die BY ANY MEANS WHATSOEVER, town gets notified a Jester exists and you can win by being hung?

like kinda a mix of Inquis and Exe for a single target, but with an additional condition to win

or smth like after its done, if you get hung, you can haunt. if you die to a town (can't visit so no vetbombing), you still win but don't get to haunt?

like so the idea of getting hung is still there, because Jester imo holds people back from hanging everyone no matter how sus

its the check on random hangs in a less organized list