#New Bucket - Coven Magical

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bronze sundial
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These are coven members not considered influential enough to be CPow but too strong to be a part of the common coven bucket. This bucket is essentially Coven Utility+. This will be the new bucket:

⚕️ Coven Power
Coven Leader (Now nerfed due to Necromancer/VM not being an option for common coven)
Hex Master (Maybe buffed to compete with CL)
[Potential new role to replace Witch]

🪨 Coven Killing
Conjurer
Jinx (Needs rework)
Ritualist (Maybe needs rework, but current version functions)

😈 Coven Magical
Necromancer (Now a part of a better bucket, so nerf may not be necessary)
Witch
Voodoo Master (Now a part of a better bucket, so nerf may not be necessary)

🍾 Coven Utility
Dreamweaver
Poisoner
Potion Master
Wildling

🐍 Coven Deception
Banshee
Enchanter
Illusionist
Medusa

CommonCoven Common Coven
Banshee
Dreamweaver
Enchanter
Illusionist
Medusa
Poisoner
Potion Master
Wildling

Reason:
Necromancer and Voodoo Master are much stronger roles than others in their bucket. Witch fits nicer in CM in my opinion, since although Witch may compete with Hex Master, CPow should be reserved for silent, game-changing roles. The point of the CM bucket is the idea of coven having roles that influence the game in a much more meaningful way but aren't important as CPow or can directly kill like CK. Also, people will know it's a Necromancer game if there is a CM bucket with no outed role since Witch and Voodoo Master are known roles.

RoleIcon_Witch_ToS2.webp
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Please be constructive with the feedback, I'd love to know why certain roles don't belong in certain spots

winged terrace
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a 3rd bucket because these roles are strong isnt necessary

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if they’re so strong just nerf them

vocal vortex
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i agree

winged terrace
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and in the case of necro it needs more buffs than nerfs

bronze sundial
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Nobody has came up with a good nerf for necromancer or voodoo

winged terrace
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lots for necromancer

inland parrot
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i think enny is talking more about the “untraceable” necronomicon attack

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for necro

rotund sundial
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Naw

winged terrace
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people have suggested to delete that and give it more utility

inland parrot
vocal vortex
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even curtis disliked it, this thread is joever

winged terrace
bronze sundial
inland parrot
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pack it up skittle squad, this thread was disliked by a dev

bronze sundial
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It's just an idea, I didn't think people would like it lol

inland parrot
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good idea in theory

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bad execution

bronze sundial
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tbf necro/vm/witch are all similar in power

winged terrace
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uhh

rotund sundial
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I think if we ever did a bucket reclassification, we would have a subalignment specifically for role guessers and expand that class a bit. Aside from that, I don't like splitting it up from now. If a role is too strong in it's current bucket rather than moving it, nerf/buff/rework it

winged terrace
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not really

inland parrot
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-# im half sure vm is CU is cause BM was MS

bronze sundial
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necro with book counters tp even better than witch does

rotund sundial
winged terrace
bronze sundial
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but witch has other uses

rotund sundial
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It blocks one of your abilities

inland parrot
rotund sundial
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oh right we are in this thread

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CD would be the only other option lul

bronze sundial
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how do you even nerf ghoul aside from removing it entirely

winged terrace
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I just don’t like how CU are anything goes buckets

bronze sundial
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like sure, just remove it

rotund sundial
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Banshee obscures/hides information, that is a deception ability

winged terrace
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same with CPOW

bronze sundial
winged terrace
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so nerf them so they are the same strength

inland parrot
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i mean i dont even know how many CU there are

winged terrace
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or buff

ebon zephyr
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I dont see the need for extra buckets imo

winged terrace
bronze sundial
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there are 6 in btos

ebon zephyr
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more buckets makes it more complicated as is

inland parrot
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doesnt DW break the whole subalignment shit

ebon zephyr
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The only issue with coven is that most need reworks

inland parrot
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its set as a CU in role card

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but does it still spawn in CD?

bronze sundial
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the stronger ones are put into a better bucket so they don't appear in CC buckets and are instant CL retrains

inland parrot
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ive never really retrained someone into a VM

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ive defo retrained into necro

bronze sundial
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you should

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11 player voting block is op

inland parrot
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ehhh unless i already have PM/Rit/Witch i wont really

bronze sundial
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it also counters mayor/marshal

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VM is definitely better than PM

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although PM is solid

inland parrot
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i go for pm rit

bronze sundial
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The question is how do you even nerf VM

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PM/Rit needs a separate rework

obtuse linden
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I wouldn't have a whole separate power slot just for "Ghoul" and VM

bronze sundial
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Ghoul is tied to necromancer, making it strong. Hex master has the same issue but it is CPow giving it an "excuse".

rigid spoke
obtuse linden
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Removing ghoul is way better than having three super slots in the coven.

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They know it's bullshit.

bronze sundial
obtuse linden
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Yeah but "Coven Magical" is never happening. You should just ask for Ghoul being removed, it's a crutch that hides the fact that Necro is horrible.

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Like I said before, they already know Ghoul is shit, it's not at all likely a third super category would be made just for it

zealous gorge
# inland parrot its set as a CU in role card

As of the TOS2 update that adds rich role mentions [[#5,2]], Dreamweaver, Vampire, Cursed Soul, and Pirate show their correct sub alignment in the role card.

Previously (visually) - Format: Role (Visual alignment) - [Actual alignment]

Dreamweaver (Coven Deception) - [Coven Utility]
Pirate (Neutral Evil) - [Neutral Special]
Cursed Soul (Cursed Soul) - [Neutral Special]
Vampire (Vampire) - [Neutral Special]

graceful adder
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how many is that in CU right now

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like 6?

tropic tide
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Honestly coven killing needs to be removed

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CU is a fine bucket

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honestly would prefer if it was renamed coven support, feels weird that it's called utility now but that's like the most non issue

graceful adder
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CU is not fine

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it is way too overbloated with poorly designed roles and now that dwer is in the mix it increases the swing of the bucket tenfold

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the difference between getting a potion master or a necromancer to a wildling or a dreamweaver is crazy

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and i only say necro cause it still has the semi astral ghoul for whatever reason

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it really is the misc rolebucket of the coven

tropic tide
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yeah but 6 is fine as a bucket we don't need more buckets

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"coven magical" just seems like a waste, we really dont need more buckets

bronze oracle
tropic tide
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Coven Killing and coven power are way more problematic

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a lot of coven utility like necro can be "fixed"

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indepedent coven roles that add KPN are a massive issue

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Coven Power is a stupid alignment

bronze oracle
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notice how i put

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3

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which is every bucket but CD

tropic tide
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CD is shit though

bronze oracle
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how?

bronze sundial
tropic tide
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all CD roles are just awful roles you never want

bronze oracle
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?????

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are you fucking kidding me??

tropic tide
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No

bronze oracle
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ok then your just stupid lmao

tropic tide
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woo i got a medusa!

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awesome!!!

bronze oracle
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YEAH MEDUSA IS GOOD AT STOPPING TOWN FORM GETTING INFORMATION

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???

tropic tide
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which isn't that great in most games

graceful adder
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6 is fine for a rolebucket if you can really justify it

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for cu you cant really

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you can either get the funny silencing you dont get to play the game role or temu lookout and tracker

bronze oracle
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medusa is amazing in most gamesy

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you just don't know or what it seems like to care how to use it effectively

tropic tide
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The point of CU is to be stuff that helps the coven but doesn't directly add deception, kills or isn't powerful enough to be deemed a power role

tropic tide
graceful adder
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?

tropic tide
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that's pretty much what it's designed to be currently

graceful adder
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bad design

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town support is mostly a misc bucket and its better? then cu but really not by much

tropic tide
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its meant to be similar to what mafia support was

bronze oracle
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Wilding just a claim bag

graceful adder
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theres alot of things from mafia that dont translate well into here

bronze oracle
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their info isn't that powerful... at all

tropic tide
bronze oracle
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other then whisper reading

bronze oracle
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lying exists

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also like

graceful adder
tropic tide
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When I see a medusa, Illusionist or enchanter I'm not really that hype

bronze oracle
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if wild gets sixth sense

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wilding will be good

tropic tide
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i guess its ok

bronze oracle
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but for now

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mid

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nah

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low mid

bronze sundial
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wildling can be good but it’s extremely circumstantial and other coven does its job better

graceful adder
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depends if they can even formulate sixth sense into the game as it is now

bronze oracle
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i don't see why it would be so hard

graceful adder
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with sixth sense theres always gonna be problems out of your control as a wildling if nights remain currently how they are

tropic tide
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whats sixth sense?

graceful adder
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people who think a wild may be on them can bait and switch the last possible second to avoid it

bronze oracle
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active tracking

graceful adder
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unfun meta to play against

bronze oracle
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lmao

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they solved for that

tropic tide
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like when werewolf sniffs someone and they're perma tracked?

graceful adder
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holy bandaid

bronze oracle
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active trackin

graceful adder
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its not that hard to tweak nights honestly just to make it work

bronze oracle
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"2 is going to X"

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"2 is using Special"

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or well

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nvm it would be

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"2 is using self barrier"

tropic tide
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during the night?

bronze oracle
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wait that doesn't that out role

tropic tide
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that sounds awful

bronze oracle
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...uhh

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why?

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you get to actively know what someone is doing?

graceful adder
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its an important niche for coven to have

tropic tide
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having a role knowing what action you are going to do, that's actually like awful theirs no counter play

graceful adder
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gives counterplay to tk and tp that coven have been drooling at the mouth for

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and also ti by extension

bronze oracle
tropic tide
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taking away a players counterplay by knowing what they're going to do before they do it isn't a good mech

bronze oracle
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although... yeah it would be kinda hard to have someone not see your seer

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or retri

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because of the double visit

graceful adder
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thats kind of a problem with them roles themselves

bronze oracle
tropic tide
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I'd be interested in a LO consig, aka learning roles of visitors and names, but that would also have good synergy with rit which rit doesn't need its too strong

graceful adder
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i dont like seer having double visits even as a "downside" (yes it makes them more prone into walking into imminent danger but it just gives shroud free extra kp and lets tracker hardconfirm them)

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and ret should be vessel

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imo

bronze oracle
tropic tide
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also pm got late game utility and can counter vigis

graceful adder
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yeah a lo consig would be just too similiar to pm

tropic tide
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It would be great at countering d1 tp/los lol

tropic tide
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both would play differently

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just being a LO/Tracker isn't enough to justify current wildling

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i guess also whispers too but that's nichely useful and game depedent

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Ideally I think CK needs to go in general, those roles should be reworked into another category because the idea of having roles that can seperately kill from the book holder isn't healthy

graceful adder
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i mean a lo consig would still act as a claimbag most of the time only that it now has the potential to claim spy and trapper and create even more unhealthy synergy with rit which... yay... sixth sense is really just what wildling needs to get that extra edge

graceful adder
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wont happen tho

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they dont want to remove any subalignments or roles in general

tropic tide
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not saying they should remove roles

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but coven killing should be removed (well renamed and not be about "killing")

graceful adder
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best case scenario for ck is every role in it gets overhauled not to just be some extra kpn for coven but to assist with coven kills instead

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since inherently

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coven having the potential for consistent 2kpn or even more is very unhealthy and feeds into the blitz meta this game currently has

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aka kill as many people in the shortest amount of time

tropic tide
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Jinx is overwhelmingly a awful role its both the most absurdly poorly designed and fundamentally bad a role can be, it gives coven 2kpn, but also it's oddly most games weak, it's honestly insane how a role list that exists in tos2

graceful adder
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they just really took ambusher and put a coat of paint on it

tropic tide
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ambusher was ew

graceful adder
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and made it reveal itself

tropic tide
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Rit i like the idea of it countering hard VFA but is poorly implemented

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the idea is salvageable imo if it doesn't directly kill

graceful adder
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its funny cause arguably conj is the most balanced ck right now and even conj is questionable

tropic tide
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true

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i agree with that

graceful adder
tropic tide
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I have said move conjurer to power but people disagree with that which is valid

graceful adder
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rit does a horrible job at doing it

tropic tide
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eh doom does like it worser somehow imo

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neutral evil role that nukes three players yeah no i hate it

graceful adder
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the worry of self revealing yourself just ends up to you not using any of your charges unless a tpow reveals or you have a witch/pm

graceful adder
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which is uh

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pretty much all of them

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except exe? i guess

tropic tide
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i also hate current exe, vanllia and btos2

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preventing day votes the next day is gross

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pirate is a meme role

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jester is badly designed too tho

graceful adder
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jester doesnt need to exist at all

tropic tide
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jester more or less just not impactful enough for people to care

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but i hate it

graceful adder
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vanilla exe is terrible

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doom is just terrible

tropic tide
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this is the issue with tos2 and why its so fast paced because of how many killing power was added

graceful adder
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3 kills for a ne is overkill

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pirate is

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yeah

tropic tide
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pirate is pirate

graceful adder
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and inq can be very unfun to play

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it just feels like harder exe

tropic tide
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most inqs i see just open claim

graceful adder
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lmao

tropic tide
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which is something i dont really like but whatever i suppose

graceful adder
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the problem with ne is that it cant be anti everyone

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in any game where town is the majority

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it will side town no matter what

tropic tide
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a anti everyone role is actually just anti whoever they choose to screw over usually

graceful adder
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except exe

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but thats baked into its design

tropic tide
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which has the same issue as neutral benign

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but reverse

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instead of picking a side your picking a side to screw over

graceful adder
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personally its definitely a hot take (or not) but id prefer ne just gets torn down and replaced with np

tropic tide
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nah same honestly

graceful adder
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while np still has its issues

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its alot more fun to play

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and to play against

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in comparison

tropic tide
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i think NP's current problem is judge and audi

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i love starspawns current design

graceful adder
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👍

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audi is just too loud

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and has eh coverage

tropic tide
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audi is better then judge, i really dislike court

graceful adder
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you can fuck over tpow and tk which is great dont get me wrong

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and judge is really just the fuck you marshal role

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or oops i courted myself

tropic tide
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Lol that's always funny

graceful adder
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evil vote manipulation is bad i just dont think i can find a way to reasonably justify it

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vm is a prime example

tropic tide
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a much healthier Tos2 would require so much changes honestly, I think stuff like coven killing issues is just one layer of the balance that is so wrong

graceful adder
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its very unpopular for some reason but i believe tuba and curt can iron out some if not most of the issues tos2 has

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i think their balance patches in s3 were the best the games ever had

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it wasnt perfect for sure

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but a massive step up from prior seasons

graceful adder
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with how many issues the game currently has

tropic tide
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I have hope too, i dont think s4 will be perfect i think its going to require a long term balance over the course of years until things are good balance wise

graceful adder
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if s4 comes out and they manage to cook like crazy i might even start playing the game regularly again

tropic tide
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most pressing issues right now imo are, Kill power, NE balance, some town roles like admirer (or invest ect in vanilla) which i can all see being made better in season 4

graceful adder
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may even play vanilla

tropic tide
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I really hope NP comes in ranked, NE is so bad for it

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NP is the one case where i think adding roles is fine, outside of that I dont think we need new roles

graceful adder
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im not sure if np will be added to base thats the only issue

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i think they mentioned it before that the landscape here and in vanilla is just too different

tropic tide
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i doubt season 4, but i have hope lol

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if not i would like something without NE

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To me NE is about as bad as having a tos 1 neutral benign in your ranked list

graceful adder
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i really hope its not oracle

proud dirge
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💀

tropic tide
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oracle is just bargin bin cleric

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cool concept ig but its not great

graceful adder
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i think its kinda obvious why a town rit cant work that well

tropic tide
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its not like the most offensive balance wise to me but it's also just kinda a role that i dont want to see anyway

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town doesn't need more roles

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they need to fix existing ones

graceful adder
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they already kinda fucked it with adding marsh alongside updated pros

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now theres 5 tpows and not much to show for it

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oops

tropic tide
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i think that was more bmgs fault but yea

graceful adder
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it was

tropic tide
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old marshal was also just horrific paired with pros being able to double pros

graceful adder
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was confirmed that bmg added it without any sort of word from tuba nor curtis i think

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old marshal was pretty bad yeah

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i think marsh as it is now is fine ?

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maybe just no consecutive tribunals but thats it

tropic tide
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I kinda wish marshal and prosecutor were mutually exclusive

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thats a bandaid but meh

graceful adder
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yeah

tropic tide
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having both in one game is just horrible

graceful adder
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they kinda need to tacke it head on

tropic tide
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Jailor, marshal and prosecutor in the same game as evil is a good old time

graceful adder
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😭

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i think common town is honestly the best decision made by tuba and curtis by far

tropic tide
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Thing is are they gonna add something s4? was this confirmed?

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like i can't imagine what would be added

graceful adder
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ranked games where there can be 4 tpow

graceful adder
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i could be wrong

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i believe it got added whilst they were there under bmg

tropic tide
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I Meant a new role

graceful adder
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oh

tropic tide
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sorrry

graceful adder
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yeah

tropic tide
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brain moment

graceful adder
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a new role is confirmed

tropic tide
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oh god

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thing is

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i cant imagine it being anything good

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like we dont need town roles, we dont need coven roles

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i guess maybe warlock?

bronze oracle
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i know reworks are coming

graceful adder
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i can find some sort of proof for it

bronze oracle
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but uh

graceful adder
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hold on

bronze oracle
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i never seen confirmation of a new role

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most likely oracle

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unless it's both new to modded and base-game

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(why)

tropic tide
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medium gets added back!

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i think that would cause me to uninstall tbh

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eh if its oracle its not like i'd mind

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i wouldn't riot

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but i also dont really like oracle? lol its just weak more useless cleric

graceful adder
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just praying a new one doesnt get added though