Death Rework (.wav)

[sweet jasper]

Death - Apocalypse (Horseman)

Attack: Unstoppable
Defense: Invincible
Unique: Yes

Abilities:

• Mark a player for the Reaping each night.

---

Attributes:

• While you are alive, if a Reaped player is killed or hanged, everyone will die and the Apocalypse will win the game. This does not include kills from your team, or disconnecting.
• If you and another Reaped player are the last ones alive, they will die and the Apocalypse will win the game.
• You are immune to roleblocks and controls.
  (∞) Reap
• Reaped players will appear evil to Town Investigatives.
• Reapings are permanent until you die.
• Players will not know they were Reaped.

Goal: Kill everyone that rejects the Apocalypse.

[sweet jasper]

@clear pebble here you are

[hot sigil]

so its basically making a player vip

[clear pebble]

thanks

[hot sigil]

but for everyone except apoc

[sweet jasper]

Mhm

[normal token]

don't you lose in 1v1 cuh

[sweet jasper]

Stalemate detector is a thing

[normal token]

...

yeah that's the problem?

it would be a draw

that's bullshit

[clear pebble]

in an ideal world that wouldnt be the case

[sweet jasper]

...do you know how stalemates work?

[clear pebble]

could add a clause that could be like

"if all players are marked for death, you will unleash armadeggon regardless"

[sweet jasper]

Maybe

[clear pebble]

or something idk

[sage vine]

no

[normal token]

yes, if 2 roles can't kill each other it's a draw

[sage vine]

begone shitty rework

[clear pebble]

why is it bad

[sweet jasper]

No

[normal token]

fym no

[sage vine]

death isn't even bad

[sweet jasper]

Yes

This is an overall nerf

[clear pebble]

its buss your teammates to win and thats dumb

it also indirectly buffs famine

[sage vine]

it's not death's fault most town fails to have a brain

[sweet jasper]

Death can kill them but others can't kill Death so Apocalypse would win

[clear pebble]

or that death comes out day 4 and mops town

[sage vine]

list issue

[normal token]

uh no? if it's a 1v1
like a fucking coroner and death
since no one can hang each other
that's a draw

[clear pebble]

no, thats a pandora / apocalypse problem

[sage vine]

which is what now? say it with me... A LIST ISSUE!

[sweet jasper]

That's not how the stalemate detector works

[sage vine]

it literally is

[normal token]

there is no fucking stalemate detector anymore bro

they removed fucking auto-ends

[clear pebble]

alright, show me the difference between apocalypse in ATT versus JR

[normal token]

straight up

[clear pebble]

how are they different

[sage vine]

one apoc member isn't recruited

wdym skull

I answered

[clear pebble]

bottom of the barrel

roles are kinda static

[sweet jasper]

What?

[clear pebble]

they dont change on the list

[clear pebble]

its disabled due to being so buggy and janky

[sweet jasper]

I don't think that's the same as them just removing it entirely

[normal token]

no it's removed

fym disabled?

[sage vine]

it's removed

forever

[clear pebble]

it still exists?

[normal token]

it's not coming b ack

?

[sage vine]

no it doesn't

are you high?

[normal token]

bro i can't prove shit

because im banned fomr the discord

but like just check logs

[sweet jasper]

You all can be nicer 🧍‍♀️

[clear pebble]

why would they remove it

[normal token]

.

[sage vine]

let me fucking find the quote

[sweet jasper]

Anyway since the stalemate detector is broken I can add a bullet point where you'd win if you're in a 1v1

@sage vine now what's your issue?

[normal token]

cool

that's my only issue

idk why SK doesn't like it

lmao

[clear pebble]

.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sweet jasper]

I can't edit it in the post because the cooldown

Ugh

[sage vine]

death doesn't need a rework

[normal token]

...

[sweet jasper]

Elaborate

[normal token]

i mean it kinda does?

[clear pebble]

death and famine largely trip over eachother

[sage vine]

couldn't find it but I know it was something like "We removed auto-win because it's more satisfying to get the final kill"

or some shit

[clear pebble]

i dont think thats why

[sage vine]

that's what I remember reading

[normal token]

anyway elaborate

[sage vine]

it doesn't need one

like

why does this rework need to exist?

[normal token]

...

because death is stupidly op and kinda braindead because all you do is bus a team-mate?

[clear pebble]

[sage vine]

that is the problem of lack of braincells

[clear pebble]

famine and death exist in the same game.

[normal token]

???

[sweet jasper]

Death overshadows other Horsies by being straight up better than them

[normal token]

what

thta is not a fucking excuse

"skill issue"

fuck off

[sage vine]

I mean it kinda is

[clear pebble]

(largely famine being known as death with elevator music)

[sage vine]

than nerf it? don't rework it?

[clear pebble]

this is a nerf

[normal token]

????

what

[sage vine]

this is a rework

[clear pebble]

-# ...

of all things

it being labelled as a rework

is what you are mad about

[sage vine]

no

i'm mad that it is one

[sweet jasper]

It's pretty much a nerf

I only labeled it as a rework because it could potentially be a buff in one area and that's it

[sage vine]

thi

what

why did that send

so early

anyways, what I was going to say is this reworks death completely

[sweet jasper]

Yes

[sage vine]

death needs at most a nerf not a rework

imo

[sweet jasper]

It is a nerf

[sage vine]

and also a rework

which isn't needed

[sweet jasper]

You're getting too wrapped up over the title

It's just a label

[sage vine]

oh my god

it's not the title

it's the fact it's a rework

because how the hell is this ability even similar to current death

[sweet jasper]

It's the same as Soul Collector

[sage vine]

which is a rework for death

[sweet jasper]

You mark people as normal, but instead of gathering their soul when one dies, you kill everyone

It still keeps the bomb aspect of Death

[sage vine]

this seems weak

[clear pebble]

how is an instant wincon weak

[sweet jasper]

So now we're moving goalposts

[sage vine]

because you rely on them dying by a means other than apoc?

[sweet jasper]

Explain

[clear pebble]

yes and?

[sage vine]

death doesn't really need a rework but if it ever got one this is not the oe it should be getting

[sweet jasper]

You can still hang them

[clear pebble]

how would you nerf death

[sage vine]

most balanced lists only have apoc or pandora

[sweet jasper]

^

[clear pebble]

tk / nk / jackal/vamp

[sweet jasper]

Town can kill

[clear pebble]

(they only have a dedicated subalignment for it)

[sage vine]

yes but a lot more sparingly

[sweet jasper]

The whole point is you punishing everyone for people making a mistake

Whether through a bad hang or a wrong shot

[sage vine]

2 days

[sweet jasper]

You're gonna have to be more specific

[clear pebble]

also does this win mid tribunal or

[sweet jasper]

Do players die when they're hanged mid-tribunal?

[past sphinx]

yes

[sweet jasper]

Then yes

[past sphinx]

that's just famine lmfao

except with the entire town

[sweet jasper]

Also what's your issue with this?

[sage vine]

no?

[past sphinx]

hm

well

it's quite similar to famine

and how that'd play out

because you basically only have two days to find and hang famine anyways

cuz
D4 (or whenever famine comes out): FAMINE, HORSEMAN OF THE APOCALYPSE YADA YADA
N4: starve 1 breaded person
next day: famine nuke
N5: starve a different breaded person and win cuz the last guy cant do anything

[sweet jasper]

Not the dislike

[past sphinx]

i haven't entirely thought about this yet

imma remove it for now

considering Death is harder to get than Famine, I'm not sure it's exactly worth it? or do all currently alive reaped/cursed players turn into (death) reaped players

[sweet jasper]

Yes

[past sphinx]

ok

im kinda on the inbetween with this

[sweet jasper]

If your transformation is late then you do get more Reaped players out

[past sphinx]

hm

i like it

[sweet jasper]

Period

[sweet jasper]

@glass depot what do you not like about this?

[glass depot]

i like current death :)

[sweet jasper]

Can you explain why?

I would be okay with current Death if the rest of the Horsies were on the same power level as them

But that seems extremely uninteresting and linear

[glass depot]

So first let me understand your rework, because i don't wanna assume things

but the way its written to me seems like you get a reaped player lynched then all town die, which makes death incredibly less likely to win now

I think its power level would be lower then bakers with your rework

I think current death is fine, I will say I think reaps shouldn't work for your own faction kills (bes or pandora killers) but in i do like current death outside of that

[sweet jasper]

Yeah, basically if a reaped player hanged or killed by a force outside of your team then your team wins

Previous reaps as Soul Collector also count as Death

So if you transform Day 7 then everyone who was reaped previously would also count as Death

[glass depot]

that discourages evils from attacking similar to how PB works so i think the only viable ways of getting a win from death would be to get a reaped player lynch

[sweet jasper]

Right

[glass depot]

I dunno i dont think death needs a massive nerf i think faction death does though

[sweet jasper]

And that would give your team more time to do whatever

It's still capable to win the same time it does now, but it's not brainlessly guaranteed

[glass depot]

the major issue i see with SC/DEATH in btos2 in particular is that you can get free reaps and transform early not death itself

[sweet jasper]

Yes that's an issue

But even then Death is still overpowering other Horsies where it's really hard for them to compete on the same level

[glass depot]

i just think your gonna make a role thats underwhelming with that sort of rework, I understand death wins can feel not great

Baker - issues with solo, if teamed its pretty powerful.
beserker - i don't like how this acts like a nk.
PB - Blah I dont like how this discourages visits

I can understand tho that death in general is a league above other Napoc

[sweet jasper]

I mean yeah I agree

[shadow dune]

i like it

[sweet jasper]

@gray spruce you're not safe

[crude sedge]

i would accept this if the soul count requirement gets decreased

[past sorrel]

holy fuck curtis dislike

[hot sigil]

its all over 😭

[sage vine]

Proof my side was correct

[reef salmon]

Bro this crap is a nerf, since death wouldn't ever happen unless they accidently hang a coven who was VIP, like this realistically wont happen.

[glass depot]

i dislike too

wrong sort of nerf

[shadow dune]

not really

[mint quartz]

Famine should be getting the rework, not Death.

[clear pebble]

with famine you have to rework baker and famine

this is just an add on to death from sc

and, famine is fine right now

[mint quartz]

Famine is walmart Death

[clear pebble]

yes, thats a death problem for being so much more powerful than the rest of the pack

which is why this aims to bring death down to the level of the rest

[mint quartz]

then nerf War as well

[clear pebble]

sure

though i dont think war is stronger than famine or death all horsemen can be tuned down a little

[mint quartz]

tbh

War should be the more powerful horseman.

[clear pebble]

if they transform at a similar pace they should be similar strength

[mint quartz]

Berserker reveals their existence without the need of anyone trying to find hidden roles.

SC, Warlock, Baker, and PB do need other roles to discover them.

[clear pebble]

they all come with built in alarms

[clear pebble]

war just being a double unstoppable rampage is kinda dumb to begin with

[normal token]

whta?

war is like

ass

ok well not ass

[clear pebble]

nerf war and make it slightly faster

[normal token]

oh

[clear pebble]

i have a draft for bers/war ill post it soon if any of you care

[gilded terrace]

[tawny path]

War is ass.

It never transforms in APOCTT in a meaningful way.

Extremely extremely rare to have a War win I think

[clear pebble]

make bers a n1 killer

[sage vine]

shocked

[clear pebble]

@languid venture what is your problem with this

did i ping the wrong guy

[hot sigil]

erm i was hovering over your message to reply and i pressed dislike

lmao

also you @ my alt lol

[clear pebble]

makes sense

[gray spruce]

I respectfully disagree with this statement but understand your case

most roles don’t end up mattering but still put in a lot of work

Also this death nerf is unnecessary I’m sorry

Nerf judge instead

[gilded terrace]

War isn't bad as a solo killer

[hot sigil]

Judge is ✨ Perfect ✨

[crude sedge]

we need wars old sillhouette

[gilded terrace]

Judge is the most

unbalanced NP

there is rn

[hot sigil]

Remove the un and I think were on good terms

[mint quartz]

and why is that

[hot sigil]

whats wars old silo

[gilded terrace]

because

[crude sedge]

the Jug guy

[gilded terrace]

let's see

[hot sigil]

Oh the bean boy

[gray spruce]

I’ve survived traps, ritualists, coven leaders and arsonists as war

[hot sigil]

yeah we need him back

[gilded terrace]

Judge is the only NP that can cause a death instead of support killing

can check exact roles at night

[mint quartz]

my guy didnt say BG, they died to BG as War

[gilded terrace]

which is really overpowered, especially for its main ability

[hot sigil]

Judge doesn't kill, technically day lynches aren't killing its hanging totally different

[gilded terrace]

and it's literally a battle between who has the better WiFi

[gray spruce]

shhhh, they don’t need to know that

[gilded terrace]

Bloxston Mystery perhaps?

[hot sigil]

• it gives evils a chance to coordinate

[gilded terrace]

that doesn't make it balanced, they coordinate at night anyways

[gray spruce]

Literally the first time I was war the transformation mattered

[gilded terrace]

they have night chats

[hot sigil]

they really dont

[gilded terrace]

they have night chats

[hot sigil]

not np?

wym

[gilded terrace]

when you say "evils" that generally implies factional evils

[gray spruce]

because getting free evil majority on 12 PLAYERS is balanced

[gilded terrace]

but either way

Judge can find anyone

nobody is safe from Judge

[hot sigil]

Correct

[hot sigil]

Balanced

[crude sedge]

we need this back fr

[hot sigil]

At its finest

[gilded terrace]

please explain to me how this is balanced

[gray spruce]

I miss old bers because I always imagined the player who was berserker always smiled when they spoke

[hot sigil]

Lets see 1. Judge is the most powerful NP for a reason no other NP's do this because either one is too damaging for their own good (Auditor) and one can negate not one but 2 evil abilities and cant reveal roles

[hot sigil]

precious

[gray spruce]

auditor and starspawn are still good

[crude sedge]

i would love to use this

but i dont know how to install fancyui

[gray spruce]

but judge has ZERO skill to it

[crude sedge]

there is no guide

[hot sigil]

yeah of course I love auditor and starspawn

[crude sedge]

its all scatterbrained

[hot sigil]

but you really have to understand the fact they both have their cons that go along with their pros, Judge is balanced because they control how they want to play if they use Coordination

they either do or dont

Idk why I'm yapping on about this cause judge is my least favorite np LOL

[gray spruce]

Click button, “HANG [number who is tpow]”, number who is tpow dies, coven kills next day

no counterplay other than get good

[gilded terrace]

you didn't explain why Judge is balanced you just explained why other NPs aren't

[hot sigil]

Who can click faster?

[clear pebble]

judge is just who is connected to the servers better

its dumb

its not good

and its an arbitrary counter to marshal

[gray spruce]

which other NPs ARE

[clear pebble]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1295918753678098472

here

[gray spruce]

Starspawn is the goat

[hot sigil]

I see no issues with judge probably cause I don't have my glasses on

[gray spruce]

and audi counters tpows

[sage vine]

no

[gray spruce]

and stalls hunt

[hot sigil]

Starspawn and Auditor are better than judge fun wise

[clear pebble]

why

[sage vine]

just no

[clear pebble]

your opinion means nothing to me if you dont explain why

[hot sigil]

Judge is boring but is also balanced and can control their own meta

Starspawn has weak and bad coordination if they daybreak incorrectly

Auditor can accidently smoke a PM from gaining information

and also audit a ritualist

[shadow dune]

quite literally the great ping war

[gilded terrace]

me balancing around whoever has the best internet

[clear pebble]

thats dumb

auditor being able to harm evils is stupid

[hot sigil]

Likewise

Nuggy even requested for evils not to be targettable

[clear pebble]

(self smokebomb when)

[hot sigil]

real

[sage vine]

am I high or did audit used to also reveal your target's role?

[clear pebble]

it used to

in btos1

[gilded terrace]

that was in BToS1

[sage vine]

no i'm talking about btos2

[gilded terrace]

You are not high...on Smokebomb

[sage vine]

no i mean like audit

in btos2 did it used to reveal role of audited person?

[gray spruce]

no

[gilded terrace]

no

kinda forgot this was a Death Rework thread 😭

[sage vine]

yeah

lmao

[hot sigil]

how did we get to judge

[sage vine]

this became "Death Rework (.wav)"

[gray spruce]

Anyways, nerf pandora so they can’t kill night 1. Death is nerfed easy

[hot sigil]

I like this idea

[gilded terrace]

this shouldn't just target pandora

[gray spruce]

Not my idea but very necessary

[sage vine]

everything else is fine

[gilded terrace]

no

N1 deaths are unbalanced

[gray spruce]

coven is stressful enough as is, don’t nerf base coven

Even a good team can still get rolled

[gilded terrace]

this is a general thing

it is completely based on chance whether you die or not

not social deduction

on night 1

or it's because of your name

but either way you didn't get to play the game

and it's just not balanced

even if it means TIs can't visit N1, N1 deaths shouldn't be possible

[gray spruce]

If TIs can’t visit then what’s the point?

TPs won’t

[gilded terrace]

for Coven

night chat still exists

Werewolf can still track

[gray spruce]

That would require an overhaul of the game so idk there

[gilded terrace]

Arsonist can still Douse

there are a lot of roles that are still helpful on the first night

[gray spruce]

Like what

[clear pebble]

coven deception

[gilded terrace]

I just gave you examples

[gray spruce]

Well on coven ig sure

[gilded terrace]

all Common Coven and Coven Power

not Necromancer for obvious reasons

[sweet jasper]

Curtis typically just does not agree with my stuff so I'm not super surprised

[past sorrel]

lol

[sweet jasper]

I wish they said why though

[tawny path]

Berserker does its thing, but has serious problems.

War is ass because it almost never exists.

[gray spruce]

How do you even buff war? It's already so dangerous

[sweet jasper]

Love people not sharing why they don't like something

[reef salmon]

make it immune to UOs

I don't even know why crus defends war

makes no sense

[sage vine]

it does not

[reef salmon]

yes it does

[reef salmon]

huh?

I was misled then

aight fair enough

[tawny path]

After some thought, I don't like this because it already takes so long to get to Death as it is.

ApocTT doesn't have time for Warlock to get to Death and then pull off the specific mislynch, especially when Marsh literally waits for Death or Baker to do so. Let alone Soul Collector when Bers dies, it's cooked.

You'd have to play perfectly on Day 1 to even have a chance. Marsh is confirmed on the list.

[sage vine]

Bodyguard and Trapper (unsure about trapper) do stop war from attacking their original target

[normal token]

Curt disliked and then you just got bombed

[hot sigil]

post fell down faster than a jenga tower

[sweet jasper]

I don't really give a damn honestly 😭

I just feel like people look at one person who votes a certain way and then instantly base their whole beliefs around it without a second thought

[sweet jasper]

See this is a fair opinion as I do not play this gamemode

Nor did I balance this role around being in a faction, let alone that gamemode

[tawny path]

Well, that's what I have to base my opinion on, since this is the BetterTOS2 server and Apocalypse are a faction.

You can't become Death and then wait multiple days to try and fish something out, it would make Warlock and Soul Collector worse than PB and even less consistent.

[sweet jasper]

I mean, it's fair

[shadow dune]

this went from like 5 to 13 dislikes in a day sheesh

[normal token]

yeah like i said

curtis kickstarted

a nuclear bomb

on this post

[past sorrel]

you could say he

caused armageddon

[hot sigil]

help i was tryna find a death scene gif

😭

[sage vine]

I disliked before curbis

I'm a OG hater

[sweet jasper]

And nobody gaf

[deep steppe]

It’s just werewolf on steroids

[gilded terrace]

https://tenor.com/view/vamp-amne-remember-town-of-salem-gif-27693167

I did not mean to click that

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1110363759349858361/1138551702174322698/The_Town_had_woe_upon_them.gif

[hot sigil]

saved both lmao

[past sphinx]

tbh this is my main issue

so much more effort for something much weaker

[sweet jasper]

That's kind of the point

[glass depot]

idm nerfing death

but i dont think this would be the right sort of change

[clear pebble]

how else to go about nerfing death

that isnt just famine