#Pirate Overhaul - Neutral Evil

300 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

twilit elbow
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You think if there’s 4 others you only need 2 while if there’s 5 you need all of them?

glad light
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its 5 OR less

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so at 5 you win with half

twilit elbow
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Others

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Is what I said

glad light
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if its 5 others then there's 6 alive so

twilit elbow
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So if it’s 10 people you need them all?

glad light
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well you technically don't need them all, you win if half are plundered and the game prematurely ends

twilit elbow
glad light
twilit elbow
glad light
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yes

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because at that point you cannot lose

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no point in you staying

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god i cannot spell todat

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hate having to restart discord to read my own OP

twilit elbow
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I can copy and paste it

glad light
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something like that

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dont i restarted discord lol

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if there's for example 7 alive and you have 4 plundered

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and the game ends

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you win

twilit elbow
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Ok interesting

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Definitely a step up from current as long as it is ne

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And can spawn normally

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I will say I feel like wanting to get plundered is fun and a smart take on it while still being optimal but it’s controversial because well obviously you want to not die and is weird for a neutral evil but you don’t gain anything for pirating evils when they want to be so I think it doesn’t really matter

violet root
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so uh

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this is interesting

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to sum it up its NE hex?

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i mean

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well anything is better than current pirate

twilit elbow
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Kind of like that and a weird take on apocs

violet root
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and its not being deleted 😔

fiery tulip
vocal jungle
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You forgot the Burger King logo...

twilit elbow
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I need my whopper pirate idgas if you have to sail across the North Pacific to give me it

vocal jungle
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Now anyway, I do like your version of this too, and getting rid of the RPS mechanics is VERY MUCH APPRECIATED. I just think it's unrealistic (ie: Tuba is unlikely to remove Pirate's RPS because it's Neutral Special anyways)

twilit elbow
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Yeh that was my stance if you could convince them to change pirate from ns I would agree for an ns this doesn’t sit right

peak anvil
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Oi mate, please don’t use my recolors in your reworks

magic seal
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At this point we got 3 pirate reworks

glad light
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sorry

magic seal
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one NS, one NE and one NP

peak anvil
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So any rework that makes Pirate not ass should still be looked for vanilla

violet root
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i mean ig

glad light
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also after suggesting this I proceeded to immediately roll pirate

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really feeling the love game

peak anvil
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XD

violet root
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💀

peak anvil
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Ok so like

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As far as NEs go

magic seal
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Why does this looks more like an NP than a NE?

glad light
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it would be a weird auditor ripoff if it was NP

peak anvil
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Because its design is off-kilter.

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The other NEs (Doom, Exe, Jest) are all designed to make Town play around their potential existence in some manner.

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Doom makes you not want to full claim, Exe casts doubt on TI pushes, Jester makes you not wanna play the game

violet root
glad light
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very true about jester

violet root
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hits too close to home

magic seal
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Inquisitor prevents VFR too

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(also a NE)

violet root
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kinda?

peak anvil
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I don’t play BTOS2

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The point being

violet root
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inquis is there

magic seal
violet root
peak anvil
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NEs are supposed to make you play around their potential presence

magic seal
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Eh not exactly

violet root
magic seal
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NE are supposed to make you regret queueing

peak anvil
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What behavior is this Pirate supposed to endorse?

violet root
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uh

peak anvil
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What they’re supposed to do is what I described.

violet root
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thats the actual effect versus intended

magic seal
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eh fair

peak anvil
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But anyway

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What behavior is this Pirate supposed to encourage or discourage?

magic seal
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this should be NB, and since NB doesn't exist anymore this should be taken in the back and shot

violet root
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could be anti TPLO

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ig

magic seal
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so worse starspawn?

violet root
peak anvil
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With an NE it can’t be “I guess”

magic seal
violet root
peak anvil
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You’re not OP

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basically my advice to OP is

magic seal
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yeah i'm pretty balanced

peak anvil
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You should start with the purpose of the role

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What behavior it’s trying to influence

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And then build an NE around that

magic seal
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I mean pirate is a good example of what NOT to do

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and Inquisitor is a good example of what to do

peak anvil
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Inquis actually doesn't fit the NE template

violet root
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inquis is kinda there

magic seal
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Inquis is reverse doom

violet root
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yes but it doesnt heavily discourage VFR

peak anvil
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and it also isn't built around encouraging a behavior

magic seal
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I'm still sad they didn' try al kaida doom

peak anvil
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I mean I guess it kinda was tho since it was supposed to be an Exe replacement

violet root
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exe for 3 people instead of one

peak anvil
# violet root why are you here then

To answer this question, I mostly hang around this server for the RIR stuff, although I occasionally see what's cooking as far as balance changes since Tuba wants to bring BToS2 changes to vanilla

vocal jungle
magic seal
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the one when they have to pick between living and dying

vocal jungle
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Yes.

magic seal
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it seemed interesting because realistically speaking an evil would always chose to live

violet root
magic seal
vocal jungle
violet root
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you would pick live

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as dying doesnt help you live

magic seal
violet root
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after all

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no the evils get revealed

vocal jungle
# magic seal rit revealed?

Yeah, like the entire town knowing what your exact role and/or recruitment status is is a suitable punishment for Doom guessing an evil is

magic seal
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we would go back in a "doom is town" meta

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because being revealed as town by a doom is like pretty fucking good if you're a sus claim?

violet root
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no only evils got revealed

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town still got obliterated

magic seal
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ooh yeah makes more sense

violet root
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this was to make it less toxic

magic seal
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I still prefer the al hadika one

vocal jungle
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#1282503737234952302 message

Either way, this is still a pirate post, so you can check the doom thing here if you want but we should go back on the Pirate topic while here

glad light
# peak anvil What behavior it’s trying to influence

okay
ftr i dont exactly see neutral design like this, and I think if you bin all neutrals like this you get an incredibly narrow design space for neutrals. If it must influence everyone's behavior in some way then I think neutrals become too commanding of the game unless you take further incredibly specific routes for it (and im not turning pirate into scorned).

The design intent here is more of a neutral that can offer excuses to both sides (mainly scum but thats just 3p design), since you can simply say you were roleblocked by the pirate, that you got framed by the pirate, etc. I am... acutely aware this is far from perfect. But it's one of the best concepts I have for the Pirate. It probably looks "off-kilter" because i adapted it from another setup where the design philosophy of neutrals absolutely differs from yours.

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I think. I think if I designed all of my neutrals that everyone had to have their behavior influenced by it then it'd just look like a ton of executioner variants. Getting a neutral that influences everyone's behavior is super close to being too game warping (and I have crossed that line before, hello death arsonist survivor)

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actually speaking of too game warping
doomsayer lol

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that anticlaim is so unbearably heavy handed

vocal jungle
glad light
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god you should have seen the death arsonist survivor

vocal jungle
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Pirate doesn't influence anyone to do anything, except get role blocked and die. Which you've altered a bit!

glad light
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want a neutral that really influences everyone?

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(it was AWFUL)

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everyone hated ot

vocal jungle
glad light
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it was!

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i ran the damn thing and a player intentionally broke the game rules over it

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(admittedly said player is now banned from the site but. Details)

vocal jungle
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The game rules?

glad light
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yes i was running a forum mafia game

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that had the death arsonist survivor

vocal jungle
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If there's Death Arsonist Survivor merged together I'm not sure there are game rules

glad light
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(ftr death arsonist just means itd blow up a selection of players when it died it wasnt literal tos2 death)

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it also needed to be choosing players to win

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learned my lesson about incredibly game warping neutrals that arent NKs after that one

peak anvil
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No they aren't

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because Doom, Exe, and Jester all influence player behavior in different ways

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I don't want to pretend they don't have issues because they absolutely do

violet root
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jester makes me want to cry in a corner

peak anvil
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but they're not all "Executioner variants"

glad light
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no but doomsayer and jester both influence behavior in a bad way

peak anvil
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Jester has a bad purpose

violet root
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doom isnt even that bad

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its just

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too punishing for evils

glad light
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doom is far too heavy handed as a claimvig

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like think about it this way it is "we cannot claim roles or we will instantly lose majority to doom"

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its somehow townsided because lmao

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but

peak anvil
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It's somehow townsided because it's easier to guess Coven

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but anyway

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It's not an Exe variant

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which was the point

glad light
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i wasnt arguing it was ftr

peak anvil
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As far as the vanilla NEs go, Pirate sticks out like a sore thumb because it doesn't have a gameplay-influencing purpose, while the others do.
It feels like Pirate's only purpose as far as the game goes is to be annoying and fuck with people

glad light
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i was arguing if I had to design neutrals with influencing behavior as the top priority i would end up with executioner variants

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(if you could not tell designing neutrals gives me great pain)

peak anvil
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Fair enough

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and like

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Part of me thinks that NE as a separate category from NP is a bad idea to start with

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Because not a single NE in this game or vanilla is actually good

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maybe the issue is that NE's philosophy as a whole is flawed

violet root
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NE being anti everyone is dumb

glad light
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main issue with that is designing a general neutral is far more different than designing an NP

violet root
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because it benefits town mostly

glad light
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with an NP you are effectively designing scum

peak anvil
glad light
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yeahhhhhh

violet root
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curtis said no to deleting pirate 😔

peak anvil
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I do want to give NE a chance though
And the only way to really do that is to have a core philosophy that brings them together

glad light
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see
i originally was going to suggest doomsayer be inquis when the mod was still pre release

peak anvil
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The core philosophy that NE currently attempts to have is influencing player behavior

glad light
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and then they unveiled inquis

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and i cried

peak anvil
glad light
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uhhh
i think inquis is very much trying to be anticlaim yes

peak anvil
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Inquis is trying to be...

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something

glad light
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it's not that effective

peak anvil
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Well the issue is

violet root
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being an executioner for 3 roles

peak anvil
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Inquis was a port role

violet root
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with the abilitiy to kill 3 times

peak anvil
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It wasn't designed with ToS2 (B or V) in mind because it was brought over from ToL

glad light
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it wasnt effective at it in tol and it was way more dangerous there so im not sure if it getting weaker helped

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see they took it from tol

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then changed heretic spawning rules to make it anti everyone

violet root
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what was inq like in TOL

glad light
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in tol current heretic rules are literally 3 town

violet root
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ah

glad light
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it was 2-3 town for a long time though

violet root
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i think thats good for an NE

peak anvil
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depends

glad light
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(the third would be either Assassin or Cult Leader, no neutral heretics)

peak anvil
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you don't want slot swing

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in NE

violet root
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yeah

peak anvil
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especially since NE is the cornerstone of ranked

violet root
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they should effect everyone, but mainly punish town

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IMO

glad light
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yeah i think the problem is they want neutrals in ranked

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and neutrals dont belong in a competitive setting

peak anvil
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the playerbase want neutrals in Ranked

violet root
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then the game gets stale

glad light
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yeah and i think thats cringe

violet root
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if its consistently coven vs town

glad light
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but whatever

peak anvil
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you'll have to take it up with the people who just would not play Season 5 ranked because there was no Neutrals

violet root
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yeah

peak anvil
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back in tos1

violet root
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people did not

glad light
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yeah i know

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um
tbf this pirate would be. Far less bullshit in ranked

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lmao

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but thats not a high bar

violet root
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pirate is currently plunder the two disconnected people

peak anvil
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yeah lmao

violet root
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or rock paper scissors with the jailor

glad light
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well it cant spawn in ranked rn

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because they know its bullshit in a ranked environment

violet root
peak anvil
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the idea for an NE Pirate rework would be to make it suitable for Ranked

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This pirate would be less BS in ranked but it would still be just a nuiscance and not really do anything besides that

glad light
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on one hand this was mainly suggested for btos2
on the other hand if i really wanted to be the one to somehow fix pirate in vanilla

glad light
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neutral special are supposed to be something you base the list around

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what list is pirate good for
nothing

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this doesn't work as neutral special though unless I crank the bullshit

vocal jungle
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Just toss it in the WALL-E dump

violet root
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its good at being the bane of my existence

violet root
vocal jungle
glad light
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Neutral Neutral real

peak anvil
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Yeah but the point remains

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We have to assume deleting roles is a non-option

violet root
peak anvil
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Trust me, I really want to just bin the entire NE slot

vocal jungle
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NS is being used as the Pirate dump

But also, the list dependent things

peak anvil
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If Special roles are being used as the dumping ground for BMG’s old garbage

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Then they should be used way more extensively

glad light
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which they very evidently aren't with the vampire overhaul

vocal jungle
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Well yeah

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it's not the "bad stuff dump"

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the Pirate dump

peak anvil
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What I mean by more extensively is

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both town and coven should also have special roles for the irredeemable crap put out

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like admirer

glad light
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admirer moment (i mean its fixed now)
uhhhh

peak anvil
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well

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"fixed"

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I don't have actual experience

glad light
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have you seen temp rework

peak anvil
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yes

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I haven't played it

glad light
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coolio okay

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fair enough then

peak anvil
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but I've seen people say it is still too weak

glad light
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odd
ive seen it pop off plenty of times

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(and have it wreck me a few times)

peak anvil
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¯_(ツ)_/¯

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like i said

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i haven't played it

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I don't have a real opinion on it

glad light
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yup uh

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what else would you say is irredeemable ftr

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if special is to be used more extensively

peak anvil
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Dreamweaver is terrible and every time I hear people say "make Dreamweaver into Hypno" I wanna defenestrate either myself or them

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Deputy Marshal Prosecutor, two of them need to go

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Investigator and Psychic are too redundant and TI is too bloated to give them a good niche

violet root
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well btos2

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crus

glad light
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i liked the dreamweaver that inverted their target's results but uhh
mass hysteria got yeeted onto illu instead for some reason

peak anvil
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because it made more sense on one of the roles that was already designed to fuck with TI

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and out of the two

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Illusionist needed the buff more.

glad light
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earnestly
no
its not a helpful ability on illusionist

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but thats besides the point

violet root
glad light
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actually im out of things to say
neutral design bleh. I think designing neutrals for ranked is necessarily gonna suck and i wouldn't know where to go

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i think I've at least achieved the goal of "make pirate a somewhat engaging role to play as and against" even if its not. Amazing.

violet root
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well its better than current pirate