I mean its not bad its just a lot cause you can attack, identify, aggro and tactical
#The Daily Rework Discussion Thread
dry jungle
limpid bane
the first two are the same thing i just seperated them for clarity
dry jungle
oh okay
limpid bane
since its basically seer double target
cosmic quail
So Perception from ToL's Sorcerer?
-# (If attacking your target would kill you, you simply don't attack and are notified that "something felt off" about attacking them)
dry jungle
were getting identified by tracker with this one
limpid bane
So Perception from ToL's Sorcerer?
-# (If attacking your target would kill you, ...
i have no idea about anything from throne of lies
dry jungle
But thats a issue with tracker anyway
limpid bane
were getting identified by tracker with this one
no, second target isnt a visit unless you actually attacked them
and at that point you wouldn’t be seen at the first
dry jungle
no, second target isnt a visit unless you actually attacked them
so failsafe visit
limpid bane
yeah
dry jungle
makes sense
lucid cairn
About what?
languid flint
Give banshee its double screech ability like in tos1 to give coven even more kpn trust
Banshee isn't really
a problem rn
its pretty balenced imo
limpid bane
its kinda useless outside clearing feedback / stopping someone from getting d2 claims
gaunt cipher
Give banshee its double screech ability like in tos1 to give coven even more kpn...
the hell
winged dirge
Give banshee its double screech ability like in tos1 to give coven even more kpn...
We don't talk about this.
limpid bane
Coven Utility
Presents a Coven Deception
banshee is coven deception?
who does it deceive
icy berry
you
sinful sequoia
Coven Utility
Presents a Coven Deception
from my knowledge its coven utility
raw tangle
It is not coven utility
It is coven Deception because of its ability to censor feedback
sinful sequoia
oh it is
raw tangle
sinful sequoia
whatever lets just do it
raw tangle
Anyway uh
Its weak but also annoying as hell to play against not a great combo
dry jungle
Banshee?
dry jungle
I love the "you can't play the game today" button
We need a role that doesnt allow you to see for the day
sinful sequoia
roles like banshee and vm regardless of their issues are just unfun to play against from a purely gameplay standpoint
its literally just “you dont get to participate for a day”
dry jungle
🙉 🙈 🙊
raw tangle
Wacky smokebomb thing is fine its just nobody remembers it exists
And "censor feedback" on its own is a weak ability
Without specific combos
dry jungle
its not a threat really
limpid bane
it only works for like
poisoner
since you don’t know you will die and cant call for help
sinful sequoia
https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1299050099959136346
is this just coven crus?
dry jungle
coven crus but limited to a degree
you cant have uo while having the necro and non-attacking coven may visit (Not counting ritualist cause astral stuff)
sinful sequoia
i mean im not totally opposed to it
ss being the only role besides crus that can uo has been brought up as an issue before
and no jailor doesnt count
try to fakeclaim jailor and see where it gets you
dry jungle
Its already kind of confusing as is to diffrentiate but once you know its auditor and not SS you auto-confirm the crusader
sinful sequoia
especially considering nps are supposed to be “loud” which is something i dont agree with too much
nps should be able to stay under the radar if they so wish
icy berry
just claim jailor and have your teammates claim jailed 
limpid bane
try to fakeclaim jailor and see where it gets you
jailor could technically be faked, but its very specific
coven does need a mirror to crusader though imo
sinful sequoia
in the case of an np its incredibly difficult to pull off a successful jailor fakeclaim
with a full cov team yeah sure
dry jungle
Banshee if given a UO they can only go on a coven member once
for every coven member that is
sinful sequoia
its kind of a domino effect though if one of you gets caught out as fake everyone else does
limpid bane
Banshee if given a UO they can only go on a coven member once
why
sinful sequoia
very high risk high reward
limpid bane
why restrict it outside of the crusader limitations
limpid bane
OP
not really
if people keep getting bounced on coven members guess whos more at risk of being executed
dry jungle
your essentially better pm then
limpid bane
pm is shit
limpid bane
having a consistent strong utility is fine
dry jungle
correct and your making better shit
limpid bane
pm is shit
joat roles are just bad
dry jungle
joat roles are just bad
I find PM fun
limpid bane
yeah and its bad
icy berry
I like being pm
dry jungle
you gotta strategize as pm
icy berry
clearly you have never successfully barriered someone before
dry jungle
Yeah you revealed someone but like you didnt protect your witch from a ww attack
shame on you
limpid bane
clearly you have never successfully barriered someone before
like
once
and thats because necromancer tried to send a werewolf onto the same target
dry jungle
now the dw and necro is shitting on you bc you didnt protect witch
icy berry
if your coven is witch pm dw necro you have bigger problems
dry jungle
if your coven is witch pm dw necro you have bigger problems
lmao trash team set
sinful sequoia
if your coven is witch pm dw necro you have bigger problems
coven loadouts in vanilla all any when theres 4 apoc 2 sk and a ww
lucid cairn
Hate Banshee
dry jungle
What exactly is wrong with Banshee?
Banshee is "Haha you dont get to see chats" for one day
its kinda just annoying and essentially a day block but you can still use a day ability
cosmic quail
So is the issue that it's not really useful?
Or is it that it's annoying to play against?
dry jungle
Its both useless and annoying
raw tangle
it's both
dry jungle
its not day blocking so it has no real use
raw tangle
since banshee doesn't prevent the target from chatting, it doesn't prevent them from revealing most relevant mechanical information, but it means that player cannot engage with the dayplay at all anyway
dry jungle
if it day blocked that'd be a different story but you deafen a marshal they're probably just gonna go for the people they sussed the previous day ago
or investigator is just gonna say 8 did a murder and trespassed despite u deafening them
dry jungle
I do have a ability that could maybe make banshee worth it
but like its not as good as UO one
Wail - ( ☀️/1️⃣ )
- During the day unleash a Wail powerful enough to temporarily shatter all player's ears.
- All player chats will be shown as Hidden during the daytime and hiding all deaths.
pallid crystal
## _Wail - ( ☀️/1️⃣ )_
- During the day unleash a **Wail** powerful enough to te...
I read that as wall
dry jungle
I read that as wall
wall.
sinful sequoia
Or is it that it's annoying to play against?
both
the latter being annoying to play against shares the same issue that vm also has
which is literally just you dont get to play the game for a day
sinful sequoia
what next
next forum
potion master
dry jungle
potion master is the best util and pretty balanced
I just wish it could use tp potion on other people to fake cleric + protect np/recruit/TT
limpid bane
potion master is the best util and pretty balanced
joats are kinda bad
dry jungle
well I win with pm more than any other utility
so that maybe should say something
but its different for everyone else so idk
limpid bane
so that maybe should say something
not really
unique osprey
joats are kinda bad
JOAT is not a bad scum role but I’d prefer a JOAT as a 1-shot each town role
limpid bane
JOAT is not a bad scum role but I’d prefer a JOAT as a 1-shot each town role
roles should fill one niche
and not multiple roles in a trenchcoat
dry jungle
roles should fill one niche
unique osprey
Retri is TPWR in a good game and I’m tired of pretending it’s not
dry jungle
roles should fill one niche
unique osprey
Retri is the best town role and it’s not even close (ignoring Jailor)
dry jungle
Retributionist is a situational role
limpid bane
retri and necromancer fill the niche of recovering what town/coven lost
dry jungle
retri and necromancer fill the niche of recovering what town/coven lost
Still technically a joat
limpid bane
Retributionist is a situational role
only if unusable roles die
dry jungle
if you have a invest and coroner in the grave
limpid bane
Still technically a joat
it has the single purpose of using dead good players
dry jungle
your garbarge
unique osprey
I love having a 3-shot no punishment TK
limpid bane
and not a rolecop and a mafia doctor mixed in one
unique osprey
Mafia doctor has no place in tos2
limpid bane
I love having a 3-shot no punishment TK
combination of vigilante being dumb and retri being dumb
honestly mafia doctor could go on illusionist
to give it the full niche of protecting coven
unique osprey
I can see that
If you really want to remove scum JOAT, what do you propose for PM instead?
limpid bane
expand on its investigative abilities
unique osprey
I’ve always liked the idea of making baker full investigative but then there’s no scum rb on apoc
unique osprey
If we get into should apoc be a faction here we will never go back
Rhhh you know what fuck it
I’m gonna make a role rq
limpid bane
If we get into should apoc be a faction here we will never go back
we’d have to create many more roles and rules to make sure they can function as a faction
but id also like if apoc were neutral apocalypses
unique osprey
but id also like if apoc were neutral apocalypses
Agree
limpid bane
Agree
i mean i have tried to create neutral variants of the acolytes and horsemen but they probably suck
cosmic quail
potion master is the best util and pretty balanced
Actually I have a little question about PM
So, riddle me this
We know that PM/Rit synergy sucks
And I was talking with Saana yesterday about it
And the idea floated around of just
Not giving PM reveal at all
Because the other ways to solve PM/Rit synergy (making PM/Rit mutually exclusive, making Rit unable to kill PM’d roles) all kinda suck
The question is, if we were to do that
What would we replace reveal with
limpid bane
you could expand on its protective abilities
but i think that’s something for illusionist
dry jungle
What would we replace reveal with
Roleblock
cosmic quail
Poisoner exists.
dry jungle
oh nvm
cosmic quail
Can’t do that
limpid bane
maybe a crusader mirror or something
dry jungle
poison potion
cosmic quail
maybe a crusader mirror or something
screams
cosmic quail
??
I’ve always wanted the Soc/BTOS2 Crus mirror on Poisioner so it has something over Witch as a disruptive ability
limpid bane
I’ve always wanted the Soc/BTOS2 Crus mirror on Poisioner so it has something ov...
yeah then i feel like its a claimbag
dry jungle
mm no nevermind
limpid bane
id rather expand coverage on poisoner for day shit
cosmic quail
No it’s not
Even if Tav and Soc did not exist Poisoner would have value as a disruptive role
limpid bane
possibly kill witch with hammers
cosmic quail
We cannot kill Witch with hammers
limpid bane
well give it a new kit or kick it to neutral pariah
limpid bane
yeah and this is the btos2 server
cosmic quail
And giving it a new kit is easier said than done
cosmic quail
And all of this rearranging just to give PM a different ability feels unecessary
just give PM something else and let the two disruption roles do disruption
limpid bane
And all of this rearranging just to give PM a different ability feels unecessary
- ritualist
- joats bad
dry jungle
Reveal is literally the only thing good about pm so if they removed it at all it'd still be a unhealthy relationship with witch
also pm would be falling at 100 speed down to the lowest winrate
cosmic quail
Reveal is literally the only thing good about pm so if they removed it at all it...
I'd also want to remove reveal from Witch
dry jungle
Just give witch their alignment
cosmic quail
me when the only NK is Shroud and Witch says someone is NK
The point is that if Ritualist is going to exist
revealing abilities on Coven don't work
cosmic quail
Yeah that sucks
because PM's existence or death deconfirms Rit
and vice versa
Also
PM/Conj is still dumb
dry jungle
uhuh
limpid bane
CK is dumb
dry jungle
PM/Conj is still dumb
Conj isnt as effective imo
limpid bane
Conj isnt as effective imo
you still kill the jailor for free
cosmic quail
^
dry jungle
conjurer either: Waits too long and gets killed, conjures d2 out of stress and probably got investigated
cosmic quail
Like yes PM/Rit being mutually exclusive would solve PM/Rit synergy but it wouldn't solve everything stupid about PM or Rit and it would introduce other problems
That's why I said in the beginning, that that solution kinda sucks
limpid bane
ritualist could just have a cooldown / inability to guess potion master revealed players
but that would being negative synergy on the second option
cosmic quail
Yeah and that
Also kinda sucks
I’m a “go big or go home” type of lady if you haven’t noticed
limpid bane
this would be less of a problem if ck didnt generate extra kills
cosmic quail
If we’re gonna solve PM/Rit then the only comprehensive solution is that Coven shouldn’t have reveals at all
dry jungle
ritualist could just have a cooldown / inability to guess potion master revealed...
reveals jailor:
Ritualist: FU-
limpid bane
If we’re gonna solve PM/Rit then the only comprehensive solution is that Coven s...
id like roleguessing to go but reveals going would also work
cosmic quail
Roleguessing needs to stay or the whole VFA thing completely falls apart
Doomsayer can’t do it alone especially here where NP replaces NE in most balanced lists
limpid bane
vfa is kinda dumb to begin with
limpid bane
Doomsayer can’t do it alone especially here where NP replaces NE in most balance...
pariah doomsayer real
cosmic quail
Unironically yes
limpid bane
wouldnt work because judge and auditor have alarms built into them
dry jungle
Can we not just give ritualist the soul collector mechanic but faster
limpid bane
well all of them do
cosmic quail
wouldnt work because judge and auditor have alarms built into them
Judge and Auditor are overtuned anyways
limpid bane
Can we not just give ritualist the soul collector mechanic but faster
the what
cosmic quail
But the overall point
limpid bane
Judge and Auditor are overtuned anyways
auditor screams its existence
limpid bane
louder than a banshee
cosmic quail
If NP is gonna replace NE then it needs to have roles that fill NE’s gameplay purposes (at least the good ones)
(No, Jester doesn’t count as the good ones)
dry jungle
Collect souls but instead blood, if you gain 2 charges of blood you gain a ritual
now your like werewolf sorta
limpid bane
If NP is gonna replace NE then it needs to have roles that fill NE’s gameplay pu...
starspawn/auditor counter tplo
dry jungle
but like slower
timber phoenix
wouldnt work because judge and auditor have alarms built into them
ez solution we give the role guessing to judge
limpid bane
cosmic quail
A role guesser with the ability to reveal roles is bad
So you’re looking at a Judge overhaul
Which I’m down for
Tbh
But we’re off track
Rit needs to exist
dry jungle
Judge is good I just dont like subpoena
limpid bane
So you’re looking at a Judge overhaul
cosmic quail
Based.
limpid bane
i had an incredibly hard time finding it for some reason
cosmic quail
Anyway the NP talk is
A little off track
The point is that Rit needs to exist
Role guessing on Coven needs to exist
cosmic quail
So PM (and Witch) need to change
cosmic quail
how did we go from pm to ritualist
Because PM/Rit synergy is the problem to be solved
limpid bane
(I don’t think roleguessing should have existed but here we are)
cosmic quail
It ain’t going away any time soon
limpid bane
yeah
dry jungle
roleguessing is fun who doesnt wanna be revealed n1 as mayor and get ritted before reveal
dry jungle
I do have an idea though
cosmic quail
- Revealing is way too good when Rit exists
- Rit is way too reliant on roles being revealed because it can't afford to make reads or judgement calls
dry jungle
If PM reveals a player Ritualist can't guess them the next night making a delay sort of?
cosmic quail
Nope.
Don't like it.
As mentioned before:
Conjurer still exists and is just as busted with PM assistance
And giving PM/Rit negative synergy is still bad
PM just
shouldn't have reveal
and neither should Witch
limpid bane
I wish ck didnt add kills so this would be less of a mess
dry jungle
its not neccassarily negative its just delaying whats already gonna happen
cosmic quail
I wish ck didnt add kills so this would be less of a mess
Unfortunately I'm not equipped to handle that right now
Also Ritualist who made kills free instead of adding them would still be way stronger than it needs to be
dry jungle
I wish ck didnt add kills so this would be less of a mess
what would coven killing do then
timber phoenix
Instead of killing every CK applies a status effect that makes your defense drop to 0
limpid bane
what would coven killing do then
supporting the necronomicon
limpid bane
Instead of killing every CK applies a status effect that makes your defense drop...
nk
bers
dry jungle
ew
timber phoenix
Non-innate defense then
timber phoenix
The latter
cosmic quail
i mean
yeah would be nice and i want it regardless, but
A. I have my doubts
B. Even with this framework I think PM/Rit would still be a little silly
sinful sequoia
wouldnt work because judge and auditor have alarms built into them
unfortunately
i still think having np sound their entire existence like audi and judge do is still poor design choice regardless of the design philosophy behind the bucket, any nontown being able to sound their existence to everyone without any cover to fall behind is poorly crafted. including np, which should really have the option to stay silent like starspawn does. although it could really do with another bouncer counterpart as to not confirm every crusaders existence in the meantime
polar cloud
i still think having np sound their entire existence like audi and judge do is s...
judge is silent
judge court needs to be nerfed imo
unique osprey
judge court needs to be nerfed imo
Hard disagree
Judge needs their night ability gutted
limpid bane
court is just a stupid mechanic
polar cloud
limpid bane
dry jungle
Trial Manipulation = Fun
sinful sequoia
killing 5 people in one night is fun too
dry jungle
Fair enough but I see no issue with it regardless I just think it shouldn't be able to have the abilities of PM and Conj in one
subpoena should be changed
That's it
dry jungle
Technically it doesn't kill lynching and day kills are two separate things (Gamewise at least thematically it's the same thing)
sinful sequoia
judge more then likely secures a kill if it can just click fast enough
= not ability design
dry jungle
Who has better wifi? The role
sinful sequoia
👍
dry jungle
= not ability design
You also argue that half of the tpows are not an ability design yes?
- Deputy
sinful sequoia
alot of tpows dont have good role designs yes
dry jungle
Eh well judge is based around the town Powers so fair point I just don't see a issue with it, Judge itself is kind of boring you learn a unrevealed mayor, wait for like 2 or 3 townies to die and lunch the mayor with court
sinful sequoia
just overhaul judge
limpid bane
Eh well judge is based around the town Powers so fair point I just don't see a i...
mayor counters judge but like
dry jungle
Well that's why I said wait for 2-3 townies to die so they lose advantage but yes
dry jungle
mayor counters judge but like
Also doesn't court
block day abilities once in session?
Or am I wrong
limpid bane
only prosecutions
mayor and marshal, jailor and deputies may still use their abilities
dry jungle
Weird niche but aight
cosmic quail
IMO
Judge's issue is it's just way too strong
It's better Conjurer and Conjurer is already really strong
cosmic quail
It's also a hard-counter to Pros and Marshal which isn't fun
(I'm aware that Pros ain't shit in BToS2 but if NPs were brought to vanilla it would be more relevant there)
limpid bane
pros is shit in btos2
cosmic quail
"ain't shit" meaning "ain't worth shit"
as in it's dog
I know
But in vanilla being able to hard counter Pros would matter because Pros is actually good
so yeah I'm not a Judge fan
lucid cairn
What exactly is wrong with Banshee?
It has a similar problem as Voodoo Master but worse
It has niche cases as a role but being unable to read a whole day's worth of messages is really bad
grand ocean
what's next again
links are still outdated :P
we just did banshee
suppose we're doing CD?
someone post Ench ig
limpid bane
visit deception
bottom text
timber phoenix
peak
dry jungle
give enchanter the ability to forge killers and were vibing
and also the same tracker and lookout effect as Mass Hysteria
limpid bane
give enchanter the ability to forge killers and were vibing
introducing
secret killers
limpid bane
secret killers should be default
limpid bane
also secret killers is barely put in lists
what
dry jungle
it should
limpid bane
being barely usable is a lie
timber phoenix
Me when making secret killers default is a thousand times less of a coding headache than custom death causes
dry jungle
Still enchanter should have some more use to their alteration ability for killers so they can be more deceptive
even if not we all agree it should effect trackers and lo and coroner if it hasnt already
limpid bane
Still enchanter should have some more use to their alteration ability for killer...
alterations are very strong
dry jungle
alterations are very strong
I don't disagree with you but regardless altering killers is an ability that belongs to enchanter
limpid bane
not really
dry jungle
it does though
limpid bane
Me when making secret killers default is a thousand times less of a coding heada...
new custom death cause is “they slipped on a banana peel and died”
timber phoenix
Me as Enchanter after forging someone's death cause into "They were killed by a Crusader"
timber phoenix
I feel like with death cause forging people would just wonder "where did the coven kill go"
dry jungle
i mean the excuse is usually and if not always ran into nk
languid flint
yeah
dry jungle
"Noah (8) has died! They were killed by the Cleric!"
languid flint
if enchant was able to forge causes of deaths it would go from B tier to S
languid flint
"Noah (8) has died! They were killed by the **Cleric**!"
The cleric beat its target with its staff
dry jungle
if enchant was able to forge causes of deaths it would go from B tier to S
They cant do it at the same time as forging anyway so its not that effective
anyway what if you forge the killer as vigilante and you shot like a lookout
dry jungle
visit deception??
dry jungle
Like cloning?
sinful sequoia
youd be able to choose where your target appears to visit
to lookouts and trackers
for full coverage
dry jungle
Yeah thats cloning I think loonie suggested it on a illu rework
sinful sequoia
it should just be default
limpid bane
mirage
dry jungle
that could work yeah
limpid bane
thats the theming for it
dry jungle
I call it cloning
sinful sequoia
cause if enchanter spawns and your tis are sheriff then great
dry jungle
mirage works too
limpid bane
thats why deception roles should do something other than cooking TI
because what if TI aren’t in-play
limpid bane
im assuming if ti arent in play its taa 😭
or they’re dead
dry jungle
or the only ti is coroner
sinful sequoia
but yeah giving deception more utility is fine
i just want to start improving it by letting it cover all bases
dry jungle
I just want the ability for fake claiming cause of deaths cause veteran is mostly confirmed after one death by them
limpid bane
rework vet and add secret killers
dry jungle
if there arent anymore veterans that is
grand ocean
let vet shoot astral
(and yes, it kills oracle too)
limpid bane
rework vet and add secret killers
grand ocean
dry jungle
Paranoia - Infinite
- If you are voted up all evils who vote for you are killed that day
sinful sequoia
people who vote vet get shot the next night
were joking but it is probably something bmg would add
limpid bane
people who vote vet get shot the next night
no, instantly
need that hard confirmable role
because we dont have enough
grand ocean
were joking but it is probably something bmg would add
good thing they ain't in charge anymore :P
sinful sequoia
admirer update in 2030
dry jungle
Who will we have to bully nks 😦
sinful sequoia
dry jungle
ritualist is too weak it needs to be like ojo
If that role is in play you insta-kill it
and all players with that role
grand ocean
https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1265363308450418801
I'm actually kinda surprised that one does not have much upvotes
polar cloud
Its extremely oppressive to play against, but its rewarding to use
light hollow
I'm actually kinda surprised that one does not have much upvotes
If I had to guess, it’s because said rework is extremely casual-unfriendly
light hollow
Its extremely oppressive to play against, but its rewarding to use
For pro players, it adds a lot to the experience of playing town knowing that flips aren’t nearly as reliable as they once were, and gives evils a lot more freedom to make interesting and effective plays
For casuals, it would mostly results in evil stomps whenever it spawns
Which is concerning
limpid bane
For casuals, it would mostly results in evil stomps whenever it spawns
where do we draw the line
between skill issue and overtuned
light hollow
between skill issue and overtuned
Probably new-Medusa level
That's a pretty good benchmark for a role that requires skill to play around, but isn't extremely oppressive to casuals
winged dirge
Even if a whole lot of people just stoned the kill, it's good that they have the option of being creative now.
light hollow
Even if a whole lot of people just stoned the kill, it's good that they have the...
20%, the kill stone is tactical to remove claimspace
80% of the time, it happens because people didn't read the patch notes
limpid bane
stoning the kill is only viable n1
light hollow
Massclaim meta kills off Jani-type roles very quickly
cosmic quail
We have Doom and Rit for that though ;P
light hollow
We have Doom and Rit for that though ;P
Alignment claim still reduces claimspace
vagrant quarry
vff (vote for faction)
coven
sinful sequoia
i claim town no cc
ok
if we just did enchanter we should do enchanters long lost sibling
Illusionist
dim moth
gaunt cipher
illusionist needs better illusions
that's all really
it doesn't need mass hysteria I believe
sinful sequoia
i want illusionist to have something else besides illusion
but uh yeah
would rather illusionist cover all TI before anything
light hollow
One second
gaunt cipher
It was indeed one second
dry jungle
probs
light hollow
Imma guess they wanted to link this
nah
I wanted to make a new post that fixed the UI issues
grand ocean
did we do dusa yet btw?
doesn't look like it
Medusa
-# also up next we should handle NEs or NPs imo
Edit: We are doing NEs next
limpid bane
we should do neutral evil next
dry jungle
I think Dusa is fine
dry jungle
eh not much to do about that its at least not astral
timber phoenix
medusa can no longer get the book ggs book sponge problem solved!!!
dry jungle
medusa can no longer get the book ggs book sponge problem solved!!!
REAL
limpid bane
technically yes
sinful sequoia
medusa can no longer get the book ggs book sponge problem solved!!!
the coven comp of medusa hex master and necromancer after the next patch takes away their ability to hold the book
timber phoenix
2 nights until the Coven receives the Backup Book.
cosmic quail
They had to order their book on Amazon
And they don’t have Prime for the free 1 day shipping
winged dirge
# Medusa
Medusa was already done. The rework exists and it's great.
Stoning the first kill works, but then you want to stone people who you personally don't like
light hollow
aside from basically just being a book sponge
Did everyone forget about the dusa buff
I swear
Everyone who still thinks its a booksponge either didnt read the patchnotes or doesn't know what they're talking about
winged dirge
Did everyone forget about the dusa buff
I feel like I'm living in the matrix.
People just do not believe Medusa is real
dry jungle
People just do not believe Medusa is real
usually after a role is fixed people dont really care about it anymore
if a role is fixed but still has flaws people will still semi-care about it
winged dirge
I still care about Executioner even though it's fixed.
That shit was abominable and I am never forgetting it
grand ocean
I also kinda do agree dusa is fine now, just getting it out of the way B)
sinful sequoia
yeah
no point just skipping it incase someone wants to put in their 2 cents
i think its fine
grand ocean
yeah
sinful sequoia
also i think we should do ne next
grand ocean
yeah
sinful sequoia
ne is in desperate need of an overhaul
grand ocean
I brought it up
dry jungle
I remember in vanilla my rework was to give it the auditor ability but rename it to gaze lol
grand ocean
oh btw
I don't know if i'm going to update links anymore
so if someone else can do that, that'd be great
dry jungle
NE
grand ocean
NE it is
dry jungle
Neutral Pariah while a issue we can talk about later since theyre less problematic
grand ocean
ima just yeet this here for everyone else
We are doing NE next btw
limpid bane
ima just yeet this here for everyone else
# We are doing NE next btw
this works great for me i just finished reworking every ne
grand ocean
🔥
sinful sequoia
damn
winged dirge
ima just yeet this here for everyone else
# We are doing NE next btw
This is weird because Jester and Doomsayer are the only ones that are obviously still broken without a unified solution that everyone likes.
Inquisitor is great but could still use that touch of hard forcing two town when available, and maybe just canceling the kill if he gets it wrong.
(also, late but hi harry)
sinful sequoia
inq definitely just feels like harder executioner in a sense
instead of one target you get three and in addition you dont know who they are off the bat
but yeah both jest and doom are roles i havent seen any salvageable rework for
doom i think can be reworked to an extent if we want to justify its existence as a vfr counter
jester... uh
youre gonna need to overhaul the entire concept from the ground up
raw tangle
Inquis is weird
Its purpose in ToL was to be anti-massclaim
In coming to btos2 it was instead used as an exe overhaul (until exe came back, anyway), and currently doesn’t really serve a purpose
and yet despite that its probably the best NE
sinful sequoia
arguably yeah
it needs some tweaks for sure
i just dont see any real way of changing and retaining its identity while exe exists in its current state
cause if you now go for the route of targeting 2 townies
youve also just got harder exe
oh yeah
winged dirge
It's not harder exec because you can just stab him
sinful sequoia
inq shouldnt be able to target neutrals
raw tangle
I mean inquis having a kill makes it a lot different gameplaywise than exe (and I think current exe has its issues anyway)
sinful sequoia
but thats a given
sinful sequoia
It's not harder exec because you can just stab him
currently it is
raw tangle
inq shouldnt be able to target neutrals
i am
kind of surprised they changed this from tol lol
winged dirge
Inq can just survive and win sometimes, and that's fine
sinful sequoia
i am
kind of surprised they changed this from tol lol
lmao
winged dirge
Crutis
sinful sequoia
neutral killings definitely need more stress put on them
raw tangle
inquis was far more dangerous in tol tbc
sinful sequoia
when the heretics are mayor arso conj
raw tangle
their stab bypassed most protection
also it had minimum 2 town targets for ~most of its lifespan (in the current gamestate it must have 3)
now
im not sure how well incorporating the protection bypass would be received lol
sinful sequoia
probably not well
but alot of changes made to this game arent going to be recieved well
raw tangle
i HATE change !!!
sinful sequoia
cause people just want wildly different outcomes for the game
raw tangle
yeah i suppose so
sinful sequoia
some people want vigi with 1 bullet
and uh
some people think vigi should stay as it is with 3 😭
raw tangle
also tos has had extremely minimal protection bypass roles in its entire lifespan
and even fewer that blanket bypass all TP
dry jungle
oh were doing this already ok then
sinful sequoia
i HATE change !!!
average tos2 player
raw tangle
(inquis didnt bypass knight or king protection but this requires the knight not be mislynched instantly)
sinful sequoia
nooooo they changed my le funny tos1 role name that i can edit with stringtables
nooooooo
raw tangle
noooooooooooooooo
sinful sequoia
this isnt even about dusa anymore 😭 lmao
i love talking about NEs that i dont like
dry jungle
dusa is just fixed there isnt much about medusa to talk about anymore
winged dirge
https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1296692707204530257
This is literally the opposite of Doomsayer's problem.
raw tangle
neutrals are fun to criticize but actually designing a good neutral is so awful
sinful sequoia
mhm
especially solo killers like nk
cause alot of their balancing in a game like this is gonna be determined by the environment of the game
raw tangle
neutrals are fun to criticize but actually designing a good neutral is so awful
even worse the designs I usually prefer literally do not fit into tos
dry jungle
This is literally the opposite of Doomsayer's problem.
? what do you mean
sinful sequoia
and tos2 isnt neutral friendly at all
i would put og dep and cl here if i could
old cl was literally the "fuck you neutrals" role
winged dirge
? what do you mean
The main doom issue is just "RC RC RC / RA RA RA" gambling being able to just give town the game for free.
We don't really see it too often being a BTOS2 problem becase doom doesn't spawn in the balanced modes anymore.
dry jungle
The main doom issue is just "RC RC RC / RA RA RA" gambling being able to just gi...
Thats why I limited it to 1 factional evil instead of it being all 3
sinful sequoia
doom also gets to thrive in town of confirm too
mayor pros marshal dep vigi food mm yummy
dry jungle
Doom shouldnt dunk on purely one faction but it should still be a menace to a degree
raw tangle
doomsayer suffers from both being too heavy-handed but also being neutral. It also lacks a lot of control over its own wincon which is kind of icky
winged dirge
Thats why I limited it to 1 factional evil instead of it being all 3
Yeah, that's why I didn't say it was bad, just that it solved an issue that doesn't exists.
raw tangle
like, since doomsayer is a 3p thats not explicitly antitown
it wants to do more than be anticlaim
winged dirge
I don't think Doom needs guessing help
raw tangle
but that doesnt work with the design
I think neutral claimvig in general is just strange and would rather inquisitor fill the NE anticlaim slot
dry jungle
I don't think Doom needs guessing help
well the point was Guess 1 Fac Evil, Guess 1/2 Townies or a Neutral thats why I gave it guessing help because it got restricted to needing to guess at least one evil
sinful sequoia
i wouldnt mind inq filling anticlaim
light hollow
I feel like I'm living in the matrix.
Mass Mandela effect
dry jungle
Yeah, that's why I didn't say it was bad, just that it solved an issue that does...
And yeah fair doom didn't necessarily need guessing help
raw tangle
doomsayer suffers from both being too heavy-handed but also being neutral. It al...
and for this last sentence uh
it's not up to you when people start claiming, and since you're solo you don't really have the social weight to try and coax out a massclaim without great risk
and of course you can't guess TI so setup rng is against you
annnnnnnnd of course when you do win you nuke a 5th of the lobby because fun
light hollow
but yeah both jest and doom are roles i havent seen any salvageable rework for
Jest and Doom exist for the sake of it
Doom is a slapped-on solution to further discourage fullclaiming
sinful sequoia
basically
light hollow
Jest exists purely because its the resident goofy legacy role
sinful sequoia
jester is le funny tos1 role
oh yeah and you get an unstoppable attack cause fuck you random guy
light hollow
Doom and Rit were both designed without any consideration of what it was like to play them
raw tangle
jester is trying to fix something that didnt need fixing
raw tangle
bmg trying not to make the consequence for extra KP on scum be outting yourself (challenge impossible)
but also like
they threw in the roles to address fullclaiming instead of examining why the massclaim meta exists in the first place
leading to uh
the current dynamic
sinful sequoia
massclaim definitely isnt getting sorted out anytime soon if ever
raw tangle
oh yeah no
they needed to take the opportunity when they made the new game
because well
massclaim exists because of the information you get out of it. And that comes from rolelist deduction.
But to remove that they have to fundamentally change how rolelists work
light hollow
but also like
they threw in the roles to address fullclaiming instead of examini...
This is what I hate about BMG's design philosophies
They're so heavy handed with everything
Instead of addressing the issue at its root
They just force in new roadblocks to get the game in the state they want without considering better solutions
icy berry
Did everyone forget about the dusa buff
eh is that really useful though
light hollow
eh is that really useful though
Friendly reminder that you’re essentially turning on hidden roles for anyone you choose AND that the ability works on lynches
You can push someone as suspicious and have them flip stoned afterwards
Thus preventing yourself from being outed as fake while mislynching a town
Conversely, you can force town to hang TI who find Coven by stoning the coven
And making them unsure to if a Medusa is doing the above play or not
limpid bane
stone the tt so they dont know tt is dead 🔥
cosmic quail
I mean here’s the question
How would you address the mass claim meta
It’s easy to say that Doom/Rit is a bad solution to people full claiming as soon as possible but that doesn’t mean anything unless you have a better solution to replace it with on hand
limpid bane
doom/rit doesnt really stop massclaim
they just stop people from spouting what they exactly are
cosmic quail
Ok cool
What’s your solution
I don’t seek to defend the way that Doom and Rit are implemented because they both certainly have issues
sinful sequoia
i mean
cosmic quail
But if you want to be rid of them you need a comprehensive solution to prevent people from just dumping their whole claim and will on D2, as they did in ToS1
sinful sequoia
theres little to do about massclaims without reworking fundamental parts about the game
e.g. rolelist deduction and tps making it incredibly safe to claim whatever important role or alignment you are
light hollow
How would you address the mass claim meta
cosmic quail
?
light hollow
Yes
cosmic quail
Overhaul what and how
light hollow
Idk who the character is, only his name
cosmic quail
MHA
limpid bane
light hollow
Only seen clips of his power and it seemed cool
light hollow
Overhaul what and how
The game
limpid bane
Overhaul what and how
give evils more potential to disrupt players who claim to be important things
or something
light hollow
Make it so that the fundamentals of how to play it align more with botc principles
Where massclaim meta isn’t an issue
Offer strong organic checks like botc Poisoner without hamfisting in roles who’s only purpose in life is countering massclaim
Get rid of all setup deductions
Nerf TP to the ground
cosmic quail
And do you have a plan for making all that happen
light hollow
And do you have a plan for making all that happen
No
My point is
Getting rid of massclaim meta in an organic and unobtrusive way is impossible
That’s just the hard truth we’re dealing with here
It’s too engrained in the system to do anything about
limpid bane
probably yeah
light hollow
I’ve thought about this long and hard
And even for Toso
Getting rid of massclaim would be extremely difficult
Let alone the base game or btos2
cosmic quail
And my opinion is that that makes Doomsayer and Ritualist necessary because the alternative is much worse
They both do need reworks that address their greatest issues
light hollow
And my opinion is that that makes Doomsayer and Ritualist necessary because the ...
Rit and Doom are bottom tier solutions
A top tier solution may not be viable
But massclaim meta can still be more healthily addressed to an okay degree without Rit and doom
It’s just still going to require a lot of changes
But the end result is way better than relying on Rit and Doom
cosmic quail
But massclaim meta can still be more healthily addressed to an okay degree witho...
Again you need a plan to make that work before we can rip out Doom and Rit
And perhaps Doom and Rit, reworked to be healthier and less of a pain in the ass, can be part of the defence against mass claim meta (which they’ll probably have to be as they’re not getting removed)
light hollow
Again you need a plan to make that work before we can rip out Doom and Rit
And ...
I’ve got a plan
I just know no one will like it
limpid bane
I just know no one will like it
say it
sinful sequoia
?
limpid bane
gluh
light hollow
Mass buffed deception, indecisive protectives, Rit and Doom in reworked forms
And massively reduced confirmation
So claiming no longer brings about as much benefit
limpid bane
yeah uh
based on what happens in cts games i don’t think its all that effective
killing tp hugging needed to be done anyways
light hollow
based on what happens in cts games i don’t think its all that effective
I said that it wasn’t all
And my previous comment about how massclaim meta is hard even to remove in the CTS still stands
Next patch should clear some things up
light hollow
Mod kills in ToS2
Madness is real
cosmic quail
Is this a BOTC reference
limpid bane
Mod kills in ToS2
yes
light hollow
Wrong reply
timber phoenix
Mod kills in ToS2
ChatGPT is fed the chat each day and determines whether someone should be mod killed
winged dirge
eh is that really useful though
It's actually insanely useful.
First stone is free claim space. Second and third stones in vanilla are useless mostly.
In modded you can use them for more sinister purpises
light hollow
First stone is free claim space. Second and third stones in vanilla are useless ...
Vanilla Medusa’s only purpose after N1 is to bully Rets
limpid bane
?ret
winged dirge
light hollow
I’ve seen ?[thing] posted a few times
limpid bane
What does this mean
?ret
light hollow
Never understood what it connotated
winged dirge
I’ve seen ?[thing] posted a few times
It's a Tuba Stream moment. For fun. Question mark references special moments that happened mostly.
Like, ?Judge means "I'm Judge WE KNOW you're Conjurer"
(This was a typing error mister tuna made, and he accidentally hinted that he was actually a Baker.)
light hollow
I see
limpid bane
im pretty sure ?ret originates from tos1 streams because of how useless it was
raw tangle
start modkilling massclaims
The CTS trying not to mass modkill people (challenge impossible)
limpid bane
The CTS trying not to mass modkill people (challenge impossible)
the afk modkills i agree with that
when you are pinging people to add them to your thread is where the issue comes in
or when the host says not to do something and you do it anyways
polar cloud
Oracle encourages massclaim
gaunt cipher
but yeah both jest and doom are roles i havent seen any salvageable rework for
I made a doom rework
winged dirge
Reveal it
limpid bane
I made a doom rework
(ive done NE as a whole but its probably bad)
limpid bane
show
it would be more organized if i just posted it as a suggestion
since lots of it is yap
dry jungle
(ive done NE as a whole but its probably bad)
dont be shy post it
sinful sequoia
fair
limpid bane
ill probably post it late tonight - early tomorrow
light hollow
Unknown moment
limpid bane
click on it
mental vine
I just leave all servers when I'm busy or if I think the server's turning me toxic
I'm free rn so I have time to waste lol
dry jungle
ah makes sense perhaps I should try that sometime lol
mental vine
Like, there's no real downside of leaving and rejoining servers
dry jungle
I assumed it took away your level thingy for why I dont really leave servers unless I dont talk in them at all
mental vine
It takes it away until you send one message, in which it gives it back
dry jungle
ah okay
mental vine
Here's mine
https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1297507356879355944
Anyways, JESTER FACTION
I do think it isn't balanced at all, but I thought it was neat
Tl;Dr
- Evils know who Neutral Fools are but not their role (and have no way of knowing their role)
- Jester solo wins if it's hung and the game isn't over for two/three days
- Clown solo wins and gains an attack when all other factions are killed
- Humorist is a Jinx/Vampire thing where people don't know they're bitten (and still win with their og faction)
- Comedian is a sort of SC thing that disrupts everything when the wincon is met
gaunt cipher
Jester is so ass
limpid bane
well said
mental vine
RIP Daily Rework Discussion Thread
dry jungle
we have our dead days dw itll come back soon
Anyway a new day a new ne to be had
Executioner
-# Tell me if we did this alr idk if we have
#1314324918489452626
mental vine
gonna plug mine as well :D
https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1258673003680632854
winged dirge
Executioner works out perfectly well, the only real complaint is that the punishment is too hard on townies.
mental vine
My suggestion from 5 months ago potentially punishes evils for attacking the exe's target (by failing to kill at confirmed townie)
Though I think the player getting saved shouldn't be notified
cosmic quail
RIP Daily Rework Discussion Thread
It’s probably best to wait for the update
Since it’s like
5 days away and we don’t know what changes will be made
dry jungle
Yeah fair
grand ocean
yeah, that's why I haven't been talking as much
I do have some input on exe though
Exe reverting back to tos1 targeting system has been rather helpful
personally think the punishment is a bit too harsh, but I can't think of a better one xd
limpid bane
personally think the punishment is a bit too harsh, but I can't think of a bette...
the next day, whoever is voted to trial is instantly executed and no information is gained
winged dirge
Whoever is voted to trial is instantly executed the next day, but everyone who dies during the day is stoned forever (real)
ionic swift
south bolt
the next day, whoever is voted to trial is instantly executed and no information...
isn't this just old exe but the person with the best wifi gets to pick the torment? xd
I can't decide if that would be better or worse than old exe
like you get another night but still
(I get it's probably a joke, but I'm scared it isn't)
limpid bane
isn't this just old exe but the person with the best wifi gets to pick the torme...
no
you still need to vote em to trial
south bolt
wait this is just non-anonymous and non-extra vote Court
=
?
(why aren't the icons the same size I hate it I hate it)
limpid bane
(why aren't the icons the same size I hate it I hate it)
theres actual text so it shrinks i think
🟰 ❓
also it hides information like their will and what they flip as
so if evils are good they can take advantage of it for a mislynch
or frame TI as coven wanting to take advantage
south bolt
<:Judge:1197983050500427846> 🟰 <:Executioner:1294374063179038824> ❓
no like look at the top of Judge's hammer and look at top of Exe's axe
they don't alignnnnn
limpid bane
judge is probably a slightly larger icon
(for reference war is also slightly bigger)
south bolt
but I feel like this would kinds just be a worse-feeling Judge
and removing agency of the consequence from the player playing the NE is a bad thing in my opinion
limpid bane
judge is kinda shit though
south bolt
like imagine Jester haunt but it's COMPLETELY random
limpid bane
and this is a neutral evil
limpid bane
like imagine Jester haunt but it's COMPLETELY random
so someone dies at complete random
(for reference haunt is a bad mechanic)
south bolt
I love judge because it feels like HM/Arso that you're always scared of it even if nothing happens
limpid bane
because its oppressive
south bolt
like you HAVE to assume Judge exists if NP has a slot until proven otherwise
well yeah it's a one-use ability
if it didn't have a huge impact it would feel shitty to play
south bolt
but how
like
for me it's a RPS
Marsh beats evil deadlock, Judge beats marsh trib and evil can kill marsh?
idk if I make any sense
probably not
as usual
south bolt
I like Judge because it counters most tpows
who besides rit/doom
are sorely in need of checks on their power
limpid bane
tpow should be knocked from their towers
and by the way
tpow going all crazy means town will lose
south bolt
yeah it makes a downside to just instant claiming mayor
limpid bane
since they aren’t controlling their power
limpid bane
or marsh
me when i find the marshal playing correctly and hiding
truly a subpoena moment
south bolt
but it creates a downside to brainlessly claiming tpow and being conf
down with the tpows
revolution
(I still like Jailor ignore this)
south bolt
like pros & dep feel like they're reghunting roles most of the time
limpid bane
is just a matchup check
south bolt
but it just kinda makes you a np consig
and it feels more like you're a spectator half the time
limpid bane
with a day conj that ends the day
limpid bane
and it feels more like you're a spectator half the time
spoiler alert: bad role design
south bolt
you have no way to actively help the team in most situations without court, even if there is a hidden tpow, yk?
like
ONE role besides evils might fakeclaim
I would like Mayor to not be able to reveal in Court if possible but then SS's Daybreak feels weaker
and I want them to be completely unique
like for me
SS is better at night, Judge is better in the day (for a day)
because yes finding the tpow is useful
but like, you still have to find the evils and constantly whisper them
SS is better for blocking specific roles, Judge is better at finding and eliminating specific roles
all of SS's abilities prevent others from acting
Judge's are more indirect for the most part, as finding someone's role doesn't block them from doing anything
Court can be broken, but it still needs a sense of timing to use properly
mental vine
personally think the punishment is a bit too harsh, but I can't think of a bette...
Back to exe since the update is now out, I think Exe should have the ability to Barrier their target once or twice to potentially prevent them from being killed.
If they do get Barriered, I think it should not notify the Exe's target that they were attacked.
limpid bane
rerolling targets is a possibility
cosmic quail
Yeah re-rolling targets is better
God I hate Jester
50% Jester in Ranked sounds like a fucking blast /s
fallen crag
rerolling targets is a possibility
I don't think that's really a good solution
If people DC on stand, the executioner just loses
It will be revealed they were tf when they die, and then the exe has to try and explain why "ackshually guys that was just a mistake but I swear this next person is evil!!11!!11!!"
limpid bane
God I hate Jester
same
limpid bane
If people DC on stand, the executioner just loses
isnt this rulebreaking though
fallen crag
isnt this rulebreaking though
Sure! Doesn't mean people won't do it.
People do it all the time regardless
limpid bane
hiding dcs would help
polar cloud
Exe should prob get the win if their target is killed by a town aligned player ability ngl
except vet and trickster rampage
but a jailor exing your target should give you the win
fallen crag
hiding dcs would help
True
limpid bane
but a jailor exing your target should give you the win
or vigil
mental vine
even though the trick gets blood, I don't think trickster kills count as town kills per say
mental vine
like, coro doesn't look for trickster all of a sudden
polar cloud
as long as it was a direct town attack it should give exe the win
mental vine
I think giving exe a barrier that doesn't notify the protected target on proc would make it slightly more anti-everyone
mental vine
anti-town NE is fine but the barrier would make it at least inconvenience evils a bit
polar cloud
which sucks ass to play against as evil
"Oh wow the guy you revealed as vig got defence because they had an exe, wow sucks ass to be you ig"
mental vine
I do think other NEs are not anti-town enough (doom, jest, inq/pirate)
mental vine
"Oh wow the guy you revealed as vig got defence because they had an exe, wow suc...
"Oh wow, your target was vigilante and they got killed n1. sucks to be you ig"
polar cloud
"Oh wow, your target was vigilante and they got killed n1. sucks to be you ig"
at least you turn into a jest
polar cloud
which is arguably more harmful to evils
making it anti everyone
mental vine
better yet, have the failed attack message be "Your attack was prevented by the Executioner!"
so evils now know who to push
it does prevent a kill but evils have a direction on who they could push
during trial
limpid bane
I do think other NEs are not anti-town enough (doom, jest, inq/pirate)
doomsayer is hard anti whoever it chooses
because it just kills three players
cosmic quail
It will be revealed they were tf when they die, and then the exe has to try and ...
Could be solved easily by hiding disconnects from living players
until the person dies of disconnection
It's not just exe that this solves
It's a pain in the ass in general when Town gets a free Marshal tribunal because some dweeb decides to disconnect on the stand
fallen crag
Agree tbf
polar cloud
yeah
I might be tired af
and my brain didnt register it as a word
but as an acronym
fallen crag
LOL valid
Seeing the word dweeb unfortunately does not evoke a response of Chutzpah or Gumption within readers
But rather befuddlement
south bolt
If people DC on stand, the executioner just loses
ok hear me out
if exe target dc's on stand, exe wins
but maybe no trial penalty or smth?
south bolt
like if it dc's on stand at least the target thought they'd get hung
fallen crag
Kind of makes DCing optimal as well if it removes the punishment