The Daily Rework Discussion Thread

[limpid bane]

why? it kills

[dark vector]

a extra kill for free on anyone is insanely powerful

[pallid crystal]

This just in: All coven members are in CK now as with the Necronomicon they kill

[dark vector]

better then hex master

[limpid bane]

me when the coven killing subalignment isnt for roles that kill that are in the coven

[limpid bane]

pois ck real

[dark vector]

Coven killing should be deleted

its a bad subalignment

[pallid crystal]

Your cooking license should be deleted

[limpid bane]

what do you propose to deal with the roles then

[sinful sequoia]

make ck assistive with coven killing

[limpid bane]

since jinx, conjurer and ritualist all kill and you propose for their dedicated bucket to be whacked

[sinful sequoia]

not actively trying to add kpn

[dark vector]

seperate KPN roles on a faction like coven isn't good

[sinful sequoia]

also

[limpid bane]

you can’t delete them though

[sinful sequoia]

remove pois’ random 1kp

its just

why is it there

[pallid crystal]

Because poisoner

[limpid bane]

make poison a day ability to stop other day abilities

1 sec

[pallid crystal]

Simply make it ToS1 pois fr fr

[dark vector]

read.
Rit shouldn't directly kill
conjurer coven power
jinx reworked into anything, you pick!

rit can go to utility or something bruh

[pallid crystal]

BRUH WHAT?

[dark vector]

if it doesn't kill

[limpid bane]

Poison (Infinite | Day)

Visit a player and Poison them
The next time they try to use a day ability, it fails and puts them on cooldown until tomorrow
Poison lasts until triggered
Players become immune to poison after the first time
You may only poison once per day
Poisoning provides hangover once tripped

thinking of nerfing this to ability charges

something like 3 charges at most

[pallid crystal]

Like 4 roles use day abilities

That is not useful

[limpid bane]

it still needs the coverage over those roles

[dark vector]

idk what you mean bruh what, like where else would rit fit if it didn't kill directly

certainly wouldn't be a coven deception role

[pallid crystal]

Add that to its normal roleblock

[sinful sequoia]

trust me

CD does not need more roles

[limpid bane]

you cant predict day abilities 30-40 seconds beforehand

[limpid bane]

it could use maybe like one more

[sinful sequoia]

were already struggling trying to find a niche for dwer that isnt just hypno

[pallid crystal]

CD does not need roles fr

[limpid bane]

5 CD would be fine

[dark vector]

i said rit for CU with no direct killing

[limpid bane]

make dwer CU

[sinful sequoia]

i think someone said to make dwer coven bouncer

which i guess im not too opposed to

[limpid bane]

(me)

[dark vector]

thats awful

[pallid crystal]

Crusspawn

CTT Crusader

[dark vector]

coven bouncer is a awful idea

[limpid bane]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1291576004606955642

[pallid crystal]

CTT starspawn

[limpid bane]

not really

[dark vector]

yes really

[limpid bane]

if it bounces coven its fine

[dark vector]

no we do not need more bouncers

[pallid crystal]

Still no

[limpid bane]

its one more bouncer

[dark vector]

no

more

bouncers

[pallid crystal]

Egotist Crusader and Crusader are enough imo

[dark vector]

yeah true

[limpid bane]

so why should coven not have a reliable way

egotist isnt on every list coven is on

[dark vector]

because we dont need more roles that pervent Ti's and Tks on coven

[pallid crystal]

It was a starspawn joke

[limpid bane]

to fake crusader / distrust crus claims like tav and pois

[dark vector]

that's like the point of illusionist and PM heal

[limpid bane]

then you think they’re evil and you execute them

if the dreamweaver outplayed you and they’re town, congrats

[pallid crystal]

Starspawn already makes Crus claims untrustworthy (unless another NP is known but NP cap should be removed)

[limpid bane]

thats what being “social” is

[dark vector]

no coven bouncer

[limpid bane]

mfw its auditor or they’re dead

[dark vector]

NP cap shouldn't be removed with current NP designs

[pallid crystal]

I clarified the auditor case

[limpid bane]

you cannot rely on the pariah to distrust crusaders forever

[pallid crystal]

Multiple NPs are fine

[sinful sequoia]

the problem with this is that 2/3 of the nps are already loud as it is and starspawn being the only one able to reliably claim crus isnt particularly good thing

[dark vector]

no

[sinful sequoia]

giving coven more open possibilities for fakeclaiming is always beneficial

[winged dirge]

We need it so that Crusader isn't hard confirmed in Audi game.

But coven crusader can actually have a utility and not a claim, like blocking all TIs on a person.

[limpid bane]

yes

kinda like poisoner and tav

[unreal rivet]

Yes I mentioned it already

[pallid crystal]

Yes

[dark vector]

if coven bouncer exists im contacting my lawyer and getting the judge to vote you up personally

[limpid bane]

coven crus would be one of the more social roles

[sinful sequoia]

hang draw and quarter me then damn

[limpid bane]

as you have to think wether coven is framing them or defending their allies

or its a real crus who fucked up

[dark vector]

no

[limpid bane]

why

[dark vector]

i do not want coven bouncer

[sinful sequoia]

coven crus isnt as disastrous as youd think itd be

[limpid bane]

explain this time

[winged dirge]

Poisoner is still bad.

The use of role blocking a person in a world without permanent lockdowns isn't as viable, and poison is poison.

That aside I get it

[dark vector]

just please no

[limpid bane]

why would it be bad “other than i dont like bouncers”

[pallid crystal]

NP cap = blehhh

[limpid bane]

the concept of pois is what counts

the execution could be better

[dark vector]

i dont like coven bouncer it baddie

[sinful sequoia]

np cap should just have the option to be removed for chaos modes cause who cares

let the people customise

[dark vector]

yes

im fine with that

[sinful sequoia]

if they want 3 np let them have 3 np

[limpid bane]

new pariah party modifier real

[dark vector]

pariah party

[sinful sequoia]

theyre probably gonna have teams on too

[limpid bane]

someone go suggest that

[pallid crystal]

The problem with that is the NP cap is designed inherently for chaos modes

[limpid bane]

[sinful sequoia]

it was probably made primarily for taa if anything yeah

[pallid crystal]

CN is a stupid asf bucket with the cap since most lists that use it already have a NP

[sinful sequoia]

which is like why i dont really care that much but also taa is the gamemode where you can have 5 town and 3 serial killers

if its so bad add a modifier that removes the np cap or adds it dependant on whether its enabled or disabled without modifiers

[pallid crystal]

NP cap should just be removed as it's only use is for TAA and Custom mainly and TAA is meant to be chaotic

And we deserve customization in custom

[polar cloud]

yeah I noticed your lack of showers the moment you linked a seamstress to gwen

[sinful sequoia]

anyways uh

what was even the role today

[limpid bane]

good question

[sinful sequoia]

bodyguard?

[limpid bane]

yesterday was cleric right

[sinful sequoia]

idk

we done oracle trapper cleric right

then theres just crus and bg

[limpid bane]

crusader is fine

just needs an evil counterpart that isnt starspawn

[pallid crystal]

Make a NK version trust me fr fr

[limpid bane]

real

[pallid crystal]

I made a NK crus actually (as a joke)

It is lost due to reasons though

[sinful sequoia]

ok

i think

were on crus ?

which ties in nicely with the convo so

[winged dirge]

Yeah, I mean, I made a few jokes about FakeTier wanting extra bouncers, but dude is kinda right.

[winged dirge]

It's 1 in balanced game modes, so no change. I don't see why you should care.

[limpid bane]

faketier has like 30 bouncers istg

i almost had a stroke reading his coven overhaul because of that

[sinful sequoia]

its just for customisation like

not really that big of a thing to ask

[pallid crystal]

The cap was designed for TAA yet TAA shouldn't and isn't a balanced mode + removes customization for custom

[sinful sequoia]

you can keep the np cap just add a method of removing it

or vice versa remove it and add a method of adding it

[pallid crystal]

And makes the CN bucket kinda useless

[limpid bane]

keep it default and have a modifier to disable it

[next forum]

the original conversation was why the game even had achievements

[pallid crystal]

Do it the other way around

[winged dirge]

Yeah, Tube has stated in chat that poison is kinda ass, so I think we'll be good on that soon.

[polar cloud]

achievemets are fun

[sinful sequoia]

W

[next forum]

yeah

i love achievements

[limpid bane]

is there a proposed rework for poison

[sinful sequoia]

achievements are just kind of a side thing

something fun

[pallid crystal]

Making NP cap into a modifier that adds the cap wouldn't be too bad

[sinful sequoia]

dont really like achievements that encourage failing or throwing all that much but theyre not all too common

[next forum]

well yeah

[pallid crystal]

In ToS1 they were like a plague

[next forum]

that's just inherently an issue

[sinful sequoia]

i kinda hope they remove them

[next forum]

COUGH COUGH COUGH

[sinful sequoia]

dont care how rare they are

lmfao

[next forum]

curtis please fix

i don't want to have to throw another tracker game by asking witch to control me n1

[pallid crystal]

Dictator wouldn't be as bad if it was merged into the knighting yourself as necro/ret

[polar cloud]

keep the monarch achievemet tho

the acronym is funny

[limpid bane]

no

[sinful sequoia]

i like how mon knighting themselves shouldnt even be an interaction but then witch comes in and makes it one

[next forum]

on that note, do the same for the achievements that require you to be an insomniac

[limpid bane]

self witch / insomniac achievements suck

[next forum]

it's so dumb

[pallid crystal]

"Vote a revealed ritualist innocent while insane" go fuck yourself game

[polar cloud]

Vig should get one for shooting a witch instead

[sinful sequoia]

isnt there an achievement for pros prossing jester too lmao

[limpid bane]

there should be tt related achievements

[polar cloud]

Taking one for the team

[pallid crystal]

Yeah, and one for haunting pros (iirc)

[limpid bane]

yes

[sinful sequoia]

i mean its not as much as a hard throw achievment

but

still bad

[next forum]

other achievements that need removal include: the achievements for getting killed by roleblocking a serial killer, the achievement for getting shot by deputy as death, the achievements for hitting a jailed player(???)

i have a whole list of achievements and my opinions on them in the CTS

[limpid bane]

like theres ones that cant be achieved in ranked but can appear only in all any

[sinful sequoia]

have achievements that encourage good gameplay

[pallid crystal]

Getting shot by deputy/shooting someone with invincible defense as dep is fine imo it rewards a rare interaction

[next forum]

yeah but you can't get it and win as death unless it's like. solo dep

give dep an achievement for shooting someone who doesn't die but not the other way around

[limpid bane]

just make another achievement for death

[pallid crystal]

Nah nah, we should add 50 more "Seance the Godfather" achievements

[sinful sequoia]

😭

[next forum]

give death an achievement like famine has for killing a certain number of people with armageddon

[limpid bane]

death has one

[sinful sequoia]

new jailor achievement execute the monarch

[limpid bane]

for that

[polar cloud]

Nah, give Dep an achievemet called "WHY WONT YOU DIE" and give War an achievement called "Nanomachines son"

[sinful sequoia]

name it treason

[next forum]

it does?

[pallid crystal]

Genuinely fuck you game for the seance the godfather and seance a sk

[limpid bane]

Execute a town traitor monarch

fixed

[polar cloud]

The French Way

[limpid bane]

add one for marshal as well

[pallid crystal]

Mfw I fix intentionally bad achievements

[next forum]

i don't remember the achievements

[polar cloud]

Dethroned

[limpid bane]

Coup
execute a non town tpow in a tribunal

[sinful sequoia]

if theres like an example of achievements that encourage good gameplay something like enchanter having one of their enchanted players getting found sus by ti

obviously thatd show like

after the game

[pallid crystal]

Coup
Execute a Revealed Town aligned Mayor during a Tribunal

Real

[next forum]

oh it does

uhhh shit

[sinful sequoia]

or vice versa with illus

[polar cloud]

Double Double Agent - Win as a TT spy

[pallid crystal]

Mistaken Identity
Execute a Egotist Townie as Town Traitor Jailor or vice versa

Real

[sinful sequoia]

i wouldnt even mind if some achievements were given by just using your role tbh

aslong as they encourage some semblance of good gameplay instead of like

go game end yourself into the sk

[pallid crystal]

Achievements for Medium if they were in ToS2

Seance a Revealed Ritualist

Seance a Coven Leader

Seance a Serial Killer

Real

So real

[sinful sequoia]

😭

[sinful sequoia]

Enchanter - Have a player you Enchanted get found as Suspicious to a Town Investigative.

Illusionist - Have a player you Illusioned get found as Innocent to a Town Investigative.

Potion Master - Use your Reveal Potion and find a Town Power, Acolyte, or Neutral Pariah.

[pallid crystal]

If jackal was in ToS1 real

Betrayed (For Mafioso): Have the Godfather target you

Accelerated Promotion (For Godfather): Have the Mafioso target you on the night you get roleblocked or don't target

So real

[next forum]

achievements that need to be removed:

• all the achievements that are "play your role once" (postmortem, for example)
• all the achievements that are "hit jailed" (wasted night, for example)
• achievements that require you to be an insomniac (the future can wait, for example)
• achievements that require you to be controlled (assisted interrogation, for example)
• achievements that require you to attack war (sacrificial lamb, for example) (this is a maybe for me ngl. why are there so many though)
• degredation (why is it so complicated while also requiring a throwing mon)
• hopeless teacher (bro)
• staredown (this one is weird and needlessly precise)
• all of doomsayer's achievements (you can do so much better)
• difficult task (preferably exe stops being able to choose targets but this achievement fucking sucks)

[pallid crystal]

Realest thing ever

[polar cloud]

ngl going down fighting should prob stay

[pallid crystal]

Be glad we don't have Patience Jackass Patience

[next forum]

patience jackass patience is really fucking funny but also it's just marathon but worse

[polar cloud]

also sacrificial lamb is legit a GOOD achievemet

because it tells players that BG can save their target from war

whcih can win games

[pallid crystal]

Its name also gets automodded in the TOS2 server

[next forum]

what are you achieving by shooting war as veteran

[polar cloud]

killing the seer

[sinful sequoia]

i think sacrificial lamb is a positive tbh

[polar cloud]

so its good

[next forum]

sacrificial lamb is fine ig

[polar cloud]

Sacrificial lamb is definitely a good achievement

[next forum]

but the crusader and trapper achievements are dumb

and so is the vet one

[icy berry]

risking killing more people with your alert

[polar cloud]

Trapper also saves their target

so yeah no

its a good thing to keep the tracker and BG ones

[pallid crystal]

Rework for the Sacrificial Lamb Achievement (real)
With a revealed ritualist reveal yourself as Mayor or Marshal and die to Ritualist

So true so real

[sinful sequoia]

😭

oh yeah also dooms achievements are hot ass too

[next forum]

YES

OH MY GOD

THEY'RE SO BORING

[sinful sequoia]

theyre just kill 3 of any given faction

[icy berry]

what would you change Doom's achievements to

[sinful sequoia]

like

[icy berry]

[pallid crystal]

T-Rex Town
As a Evil role win without speaking

So true

[sinful sequoia]

not what they are currently thats for sure

but uh

[icy berry]

bad answer

[sinful sequoia]

half assed answer

[next forum]

Just kill three

• Doom 3 killing roles

Double Duty

• Get doomed the same day you win

[sinful sequoia]

idk but i dont like doom as a role in general so

[pallid crystal]

Guess 3 players as Doomsayer and be correct.

[pallid crystal]

And you gotta have

Doom someone with Invincible Defense.

[polar cloud]

Doomsayer - To shreds you said?
Doom 3 players who died before being doomed

[next forum]

Ashes to ashes, dusts to dusts

• Doom the last 3 other players alive

[pallid crystal]

Teehee Sorry - As Ritualist successfully guess someone as Neutral Pariah.

So real

So true

[cosmic quail]

I love throwing achievements

[next forum]

ah, sweet! throwing achievements!

[pallid crystal]

Then go out there and seance a godfather

[icy berry]

Doom Above All - Doom a Ritualist, a Town Power and a Neutral Killing or Neutral Pariah role

[pallid crystal]

Unlike ToS1 mine was not serious

[next forum]

obviously

one time i won an arso game in tos1 and on the last night the medium seanced me because there was no other option

[pallid crystal]

https://tenor.com/view/dave-strider-jumping-for-joy-lcbd-community-gif-4980710036643330518

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[sinful sequoia]

i didnt know that was a tp

damn

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[sinful sequoia]

i actually dont know if we are lol

theres been so many messages i dont even remember what was the role

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[sinful sequoia]

fuck it

we ball

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[sinful sequoia]

im not too big on alt acolytes though honestly

theres just much better ways to fix apoc and alts in themselves are far from addressing all of apocs issues as a “faction”

faction with huge quotation marks

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[next forum]

that was us talking about achievements

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[cosmic quail]

In order to make NA a working faction you definitely need more roles though

4 isn’t enough

[sinful sequoia]

mhm

i think its been said before but pandora has semi halted any concern for apoc reworks

[icy berry]

well the thing is tuba doesn't want to make apoc into coven 2

[sinful sequoia]

then dont

[icy berry]

also yeah pandora existing will probably make apocs not be reworked

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[sinful sequoia]

no

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[sinful sequoia]

i can list alot of its issues but ill probably break character limit

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[sinful sequoia]

apoc just doesnt work at all

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[sinful sequoia]

they were roles that were designed as individuals thrown into a faction

same thing with compliance

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[sinful sequoia]

ik

a bad one

but still worth addressing

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[cosmic quail]

The issue is

You have the Mafioso problem

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[cosmic quail]

Where if the Berserker is roleblocked N2 or dies you’re just boned

The other major issue is that the composition of the Apocalypse is pretty static

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[cosmic quail]

They can still die

And yes they have Basic

But there are ways to get past Basic defence

Also, again

The composition of the Apocalypse as a faction is static

There’s four horseman and only one with an alt

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[cosmic quail]

So if you’re facing a full team, the only question is “is it SC or Warlock” and that doesn’t really change your game plan when playing around them

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[cosmic quail]

There needs to be more variety in the Apoc team, not less

[icy berry]

to add more variety

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[icy berry]

deserved

[sinful sequoia]

i mean even if you added an alt to each apoc role youd still basically be flipping a coin to guess what youre up against tbh

its just

not enough

[cosmic quail]

Yeah you need more NA roles in general

[sinful sequoia]

apoc needs a new identity as a whole lol

reskinned cov isnt gonna happen

[cosmic quail]

And obviously not

That’s kinda lame

[sinful sequoia]

ik

the solution i had in mind was to just have acolytes be mutually exclusive powerhouses but im not sure if that can tread nk territory

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[cosmic quail]

The way they used to be, lol

[sinful sequoia]

basically

lol

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[cosmic quail]

…

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[cosmic quail]

Yeah I get that

Idk man

[sinful sequoia]

yeah youd definitely need every role to be overhauled to make them work out as solos

thats the only problem

[cosmic quail]

No you wouldn’t

You’d just need to give them their defence back and make them mutually exclusive

The roles were already just tweaked from their original, soloist base

That’s why it didn’t stick the landing to begin with

[sinful sequoia]

bers being the only one of the bunch that can attack pre transform would be weird and swingy

[cosmic quail]

Not really.

[sinful sequoia]

sc maybe

[cosmic quail]

Arsonist moment.

[sinful sequoia]

yeah actually no nevermind

just bers and some tweaks to the other roles

[cosmic quail]

Yeah Bers needs tweaks because like

Bers has problems as a soloist role in vanilla

[grave gust]

disguiser

[cosmic quail]

Like being unstable as fuck, and apeing both WW and Pestilence’s shtick

[sinful sequoia]

soloist roles are probably the best direction i think apoc can head in imo

[cosmic quail]

Yeah but like

[sinful sequoia]

i think debatably the transformations are enough to set them apart from nk but i see people thinking otherwise for sure

[cosmic quail]

As much as I hate the idea of making Apocalypse a faction in vanilla

It being a faction is one of the things that makes the BToS2 mod special

They’ve picked their lane, now it’s just time to make it stick the landing.

[dark vector]

I want it to be a faction in vanilla, but i want it to function like a faction

[cosmic quail]

I do not

Because in vanilla

[limpid bane]

they are designed as nk

[cosmic quail]

I don’t want CAA 2, electric boogaloo

[dark vector]

most people loved CAA 2

[limpid bane]

would making apoc cult exclusive to coven help?

[cosmic quail]

I am not one of them

[limpid bane]

like its either they spawn or coven spawns

[cosmic quail]

Yes.

Do I trust that they’re gonna do that? Absolutely fucking not.

[dark vector]

sort of like what they did with tol cult and unseen where they were mutally exlusive? I'd be fine with that

[cosmic quail]

Yeah.

“The ToL thing” I’ve talked about a bunch

Yeah it would solve the problem

[dark vector]

problem would be that you'd need to design way more roles or you'd get games a lot where one apoc would spawn

which would also suck lol

[cosmic quail]

But considering the way I’ve gotten pushback on the Apoc cap lift, and how people seemingly want to have CAA again

My hopes are not very high

[dark vector]

I think some people enjoy two evil factions at once, but thats more suited for a list

having two full factions of 4 members is bad

evil ones ^

[limpid bane]

if people want two evil factions they can use pandora

[dark vector]

not talking about pandora

talking about two factions fighting town so a 1v1v1 (and whatever neutrals are in play)

which is more suited for a list not all any

[limpid bane]

this is what pandora solves

having two evil factions while not increasing the amount of evils

[dark vector]

no bro im not talking about pandora

[limpid bane]

[gaunt cipher]

both at the same time genius

[cosmic quail]

Pandora is one faction

[dark vector]

pandora works as one

I'm more talking about 1v1v1 which can be fun but again in all any that can lead to situations with a lot of BS Like two full factions and some neutrals

CAA was majority evil most games right?

[cosmic quail]

Yea

[limpid bane]

yes

[cosmic quail]

Because there was usually a full Mafia
2 or so Coven
And a billion Neutrals

[dark vector]

im one of the few people who didn't play much CAA LOL

[cosmic quail]

I played a lot of CAA and I did not like it.

Unfortunately bots flooded AA multiple times so CAA was the only really “safe” AA for a while

[dark vector]

I was TT, Ranked and a bit of reg all any

[limpid bane]

that was the tradeoff

balance was more shit but you didnt have bots

[dark vector]

Bots

[gaunt cipher]

mhm

coven was basically the only thing alive at one point besides ranked practice

[cosmic quail]

Yeah

It was

Trippy.

[dark vector]

does ranked practice even get played anymore in vanilla?

[limpid bane]

not much

theres a discord server for it so it can be played but yeah

[dark vector]

that's my issue with aa its so popular that i can never find much outside of it

tbf i dont want to deal with old spy so im good for tos1

[gaunt cipher]

AA is the only gamemode

which is sad

[dark vector]

never liked aa much too much chaos

its fine when you wanna play some awful role troll like survivor for whatever reason but outside of that i dont like it much

but tos2 should also stay away from bad role designs in AA at least most people who like it don't really want to see meme roles back

[cosmic quail]

Town Killing, Bing Chilling:

Main: https://discord.com/channels/1110363758792036352/1285997333024346123
Crusader: https://discord.com/channels/1110363758792036352/1285996007481675799
Deputy: https://discord.com/channels/1110363758792036352/1285996121138790523
Trickster: https://discord.com/channels/1110363758792036352/1285996342870806641
Veteran: https://discord.com/channels/1110363758792036352/1285996484478636032
Vigilante: https://discord.com/channels/1110363758792036352/1285996668210118656

TL;DR:

• Vigilante gets one bullet
• Crusader gets Trickster's kit hot-swapped onto it
• Trickster becomes a Green Jinx more befitting of the TK slot
• Deputy and Veteran get complete overhauls.
• Some small incidental changes are made
• I'm not super proud of the Deputy rework at the moment, I really struggled coming up with four unique TKs even after nerfing Vigilante to make more room for other TKs to shine.

[sinful sequoia]

oh yeah right

i fw the vet barber alot

i remember it got discussed here and someone reflavoured it into dep

[cosmic quail]

I reflavored it into Veteran because I thought the theme of becoming more paranoid and itching to kill as more townies died worked for Vet

The flavor is secondary

Deputy is my biggest “WTF do I do with this role”

I don’t like the way it is in BToS2

And there’s also a question of like

If you get the guaranteed charge as Vet
Then Vet is 100% better than Vigi
But if you don’t
Then Vet can sometimes be actually useless

[limpid bane]

didnt toast post an inverse btos camp out dep

id think that’s fine

might be too similar to vig

[cosmic quail]

Mmm

It’s not Vigi that it’s be similar to

Vigi doesn’t have any complex BS it’s just “one bullet lmao”

[limpid bane]

i mean

it was literally pick two players if the first doesn’t visit the second (but leaves their house) you shoot them

[raw tangle]

That seems like vigi with extra steps

[limpid bane]

well yeah

[raw tangle]

…in a way that isnt actually meaningful enough to exist, mainly

[sinful sequoia]

this?

[limpid bane]

yeah

[cosmic quail]

TK is rough

[limpid bane]

mhm

[icy berry]

solution: remove all tks except vigi

[cosmic quail]

We’ve gone over that already.

[next forum]

vigi tpow ez

[grave gust]

Vigi with 2 shots should be fine

Vet should be reworked

Dep is fine imo

Trickster is semi-fine

just make it not be able to stick to one target

[cosmic quail]

Trickster is a fine role in the wrong slot

I wanna move it

but in the absence of that

hot swap it onto a TP so that the abilities are in the TP slot where they belong

[raw tangle]

Im picky on it because it's kind of just objectively better than cleric

[cosmic quail]

It actually isn't

Cleric does a lot of things that Trickster, BG, and Trapper can't

Namely protecting against passive attacks (which there are a fucking lot of), and more than one attack on the same person

The problem (at least in Vanilla) is Crusader.

[icy berry]

the thing about crusader

[cosmic quail]

Who has all of these benefits and also attacks because fuck you

[polar cloud]

Vigi should prob lose a bullet ngl

[cosmic quail]

I think

it would still be really hard to justify a TK without Powerful or Day kills existing

if it was two bullets

think about it, when's the last time you've actually used all three bullets?

[raw tangle]

I think ive said my peace on vigilante before I dont have much to add to that conversation

[cosmic quail]

And every TK has to compete for the four Coven of space that they can kill (three if it's Coven Leader)

[gaunt cipher]

not often

but it doesn't change the fact that killing 50% of the evil team is near instantly game winning

[cosmic quail]

Yea

That's the thing

there's not a whole lot of evils you actually can kill with 3 bullets anyway

And that's if you live to N4

So three bullets just ends up being overkill and 2 doesn't change much

This is why I'm a radical about it being 1 bullet or bust

[raw tangle]

Also i think with 2 bullets there is just flat out an optimal play pattern and that is to shoot as soon as you can, both shots. (Presumably hangman is also cut to reduce swing in the other direction)

With 1 bullet the argument of holding it is stronger id say. Probably not enough to stop most people but it's something

[icy berry]

with one bullet shooting is like shooting as dep

once you've shot you are useless

[polar cloud]

Dont forget about ret

[raw tangle]

Oh no not our actively terrible ret interactions

😔😔😔

[cosmic quail]

Ret getting to use three bullets is fucking busted

[limpid bane]

ive gotten to use 6 bullets as ret and out of the 4 i used i only hit townies 💀

[cosmic quail]

That, my friend, is a skill issue.

[limpid bane]

yeah

they didn’t help their case though

[lucid cairn]

Well no uhm

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[limpid bane]

already done nk

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[lucid cairn]

I know people like this role but personally I do not

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[lucid cairn]

The slowness problem is mainly due to it being swingy and inconsistent

Players being doused if they visit an Arsonist can be really overpowered if a bunch of people visit an Arsonist super early

[limpid bane]

thats how its intended to be

[lucid cairn]

But that relies entirely on people visiting you, so it might not come into play at all

Plus doused players dying can really set you back a whole lot which I don't enjoy

[sinful sequoia]

isnt it apoc

[lucid cairn]

For the topic? No idea

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[sinful sequoia]

why dont we just do something we havent done already like cu or smth

[lucid cairn]

Well yes!

[gaunt cipher]

you play it like veteran and get people to visit you

I literally have never had an arso game where I haven't had 4 or more people doused

[gaunt cipher]

not really overpowered

it's a single player that has visit deterrent in the form of killing people in masses

[limpid bane]

its a great anti tplo tool

since anyone calling it could just be the arsonist

[gaunt cipher]

without it Arso would be dogshit

[gaunt cipher]

exactly

it's good for the game

and the thing is as with all NKs if arsonist is visited at the wrong time they just lose

[lucid cairn]

Not really

Without a replacement yeah, but I'd prefer something better and more consistent for the role

[gaunt cipher]

what can be more consistent

it's a solo slow NK it shouldn't need to rely on consistency

[lucid cairn]

Players who kill a doused player will become doused I think is interesting

[gaunt cipher]

not really

that kinda removes the risk reward of dousing cause now no matter what who you click if they die at night you have the same effective amount of douses

[polar cloud]

I remember seeing an arso rework that caused ignite to rampage any visitors of your doused targets

[gaunt cipher]

that'd be hilariously overpowered early game but funny

[cosmic quail]

Stop giving roles rampage, I'm tired of seeing it!

[timber phoenix]

Hello townies today we are giving Jailor a rampage attack

[fallen crag]

My friends on TIKTOK send me , on DISCORD it's ...

[limpid bane]

vigilante will now rampage real

[limpid bane]

isnt that just bloxston arsonist

[next forum]

i was in a server, right? and all the channels were just

[ionic swift]

Martial Rework

strong rampage 1 charge
cannot kill n1
when you kill an evil, you regain 1 charge of this ability

[ionic swift]

punishes killers lmao

[cosmic quail]

I showed my champion underwear to my girlfriend and I flipped it, and I said “Hey babe! When the underwear’s rampage! Haha!”

[lucid cairn]

I don't see a problem with that

Especially since hanging is a thing

[lucid cairn]

Yeah and?

[young ivy]

Isn't it still luck-based if one of the Arsonist's doused targets gets hung vs. killed at night?

[ionic swift]

me when i (solo nk) kill targets and get punished for it

[lucid cairn]

Not really

If anything there's only luck that comes into play if the killer is already doused

[lucid cairn]

Don't Town Protectives do this? And Veteran? I don't understand

[ionic swift]

yes but arsonist isn't town

[lucid cairn]

Werewolf can do it too

Or Serial Killer

Or Berserker

[ionic swift]

i mean true

but like its kinda hard to play around not killing arso doused people

[lucid cairn]

Okay but realistically, how are you gonna know if someone is doused or not?

[ionic swift]

thats the thing

sk gets punished with little to no counterplay to it

at least with the other TPs it's like 'attack the tp', veteran is 'dont stab the veteran' and the rampagers is also kinda unfair but they can do whatever

[lucid cairn]

These aren't really counterplay

[ionic swift]

but you can also just hit someone else

[ionic swift]

its still sort of counterplay

[lucid cairn]

No

[ionic swift]

with arso its like 'ok get found n3'

[lucid cairn]

"Seer isn't overpowered just kill the Seer"

[ionic swift]

its like playing around old wildling, ur gonna get found

[lucid cairn]

Yeah and Arsonist doesn't really have the tools to do anything with it

They can push them during the day with their fakeclaim but they don't have the power to take them down at night like other Neutral Killings normally do

[gaunt cipher]

what

you aren't even supposed to douse coven as arso majority of the time

but okay

[lucid cairn]

I was talking about the situation where a killer was to kill a doused player, and most of the time that is Coven

[ionic swift]

the ignition:

[lucid cairn]

Not ideal if the ignite wouldn't win you the game

Since it would reveal your existence and you wouldn't be able to spend that night dousing someone

[gaunt cipher]

that doesn't really help the role

[lucid cairn]

It helps with people getting killed and you essentially being "roleblocked" because of it

[gaunt cipher]

that's the risk reward of arsonist being slow and unstoppable though?

why are we just getting rid of risk on a role

and removing one of the main things that make it good as a TPLO hard counter and TP nullifier

[next forum]

i looked at a trash can, i said "that's a bit @3 visited your target and was hit by your Rampage!"

[cosmic quail]

I looked at my and I went “? More like—”

https://tenor.com/view/byakuya-kuchiki-byakuya-senbonzakura-bankai-senbonzakura-kageyoshi-gif-26883954

AAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[pallid crystal]

More like

[cosmic quail]

I don’t have Nitro :(

[pallid crystal]

That's not nitro

[cosmic quail]

There we go

[pallid crystal]

emoji is in THIS server

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[pallid crystal]

Kill it

[dry jungle]

put a blanket over it and act like it doesnt exist

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1282441703315214376

[sinful sequoia]

i just want shroud to have deception coverage

its a fine nk

[next forum]

• shrouded players appear as shroud to coroners
• coroners autopsying bodies killed by shrouded players see shroud rather than the player's true role
• shrouded players show as shroud to spy bugs
• shrouded players show with trespassing and murder to investigator
• shrouded players show as aligned with shroud to seer
• shrouded players register as evil for psychic visions

[sinful sequoia]

quick question how does detection immunity work now

[pallid crystal]

For the last point also make them show murder

[next forum]

oh true

[pallid crystal]

And give shroud actual astral if the person they shroud doesn't visit

As right now it's weird

It's astral but not

[sinful sequoia]

lmfao

[pallid crystal]

This but the message says
"Shroud visited 2"
"2 Visited by nobody"

Instead of the death one

[next forum]

lol

[lucid cairn]

I'm sorry but where's the risk you're talking about? If you mean dousing a player that might get killed (which is like, everyone) then that's not really a risk at all

It's not like players will actually know who is doused and they just kill them to stop you every game; they'll try to but the vast majority of the time it's random

[lucid cairn]

Shroud is mainly fine

But I would like some buffs for it

[cosmic quail]

i threw this together a while ago

[lucid cairn]

I remember this, it's interesting but I feel like the UO thing might backfire

[cosmic quail]

the point™️ is to exchange astral for an ability to fake Tavern Keeper and other UO roles (assuming Tav and Poisoner get UO messages, which I know they currently don't)

[lucid cairn]

I'll come back to the [ hopefully likely ] hypothetical where they share the same message

[raw tangle]

I think tuba said it wouldn't happen but don't quote me on this

[lucid cairn]

So nasty

[lucid cairn]

Shroud is a role that reveals its existence pretty early since it can kill Night 1

If a player were to get this notification then they would basically know they were Shrouded, since the person they visited wouldn't have died if Shroud were to attack directly

[cosmic quail]

but if 3 people get a UO
Who was roleblocked? Who was bounced by Crus? Who ran into jail?

Also it's required to not tip TI and TP off in another way

[cosmic quail]

only for TP

or if the target had defence

and even then

could have shrouded into a non-visiting defence role directly

[lucid cairn]

Even outside of that, it would be for pretty much every role

If you get the notification and your target dies to Shroud, then you know it wasn't a Crusader

If another player claims to have gotten the same message against said target then it's probably a Starspawn

If they claim not to have gotten the same message then you can narrow down it was a Shroud

[cosmic quail]

or witch, or tav/pois

[lucid cairn]

That's if they get the message fusion but I'm assuming it stayed the same

[cosmic quail]

it's the kind of thing that needs UO to be more expansive to really work
but like

I do want that

i also want a coven role to get a psuedo-socialite bounce as well

Basically I want more disruption tools, and for disruption to be more fakeable

[sinful sequoia]

unfortunate

[lucid cairn]

Even in this situation it would be pretty coincidental

[cosmic quail]

the key to claiming tav as shroud would be to sometimes use your own and sometimes steal from other UO sources that might not instantly cc you
same with claiming tav as any other evil

[lucid cairn]

Getting an "your ability failed" message the same night your attempted target died to Shroud kinda gives you a good idea that you were Shrouded

And if the Shroud were to claim to roleblock you then you can basically use it against them

[cosmic quail]

how would you improve it to make it less obvious

[next forum]

this can be fixed with secret killers

[cosmic quail]

My AA hoe ass:

[lucid cairn]

Not entirely as getting the message the same night you target someone that would've died is still possible

If the list were to warrant a Neutral Killing anyway

[next forum]

well yeah but it's still less obvious

[lucid cairn]

I think it would need another way to give the message

[next forum]

also disruption messages being made the same would help with that

[cosmic quail]

Such as?

[lucid cairn]

This might be weird but I can see it working:
Possessing like you have it can stay, but also have attack be a flipped version of possess

Attacking directly could have your target give the UO message to whoever they visit

But to simplify it:

Attack:

Kill > UO
Possess:
UO > Kill

[cosmic quail]

so like

if you attack directly, your target roleblocks their target?

[lucid cairn]

Right

It being an actual roleblock might be messy so it just producing the message would work fine

[cosmic quail]

Well no

You just raise the priority up

So it’s always got Tavern-Keeper priority

[lucid cairn]

But what if the target you attack were roleblocked?

[cosmic quail]

then they don't have a target

and thus you don't rb anyone

[fallen crag]

Showing UO is interesting

[cosmic quail]

yeah

there were a few things I wanted to do with this

1. The most obvious is using a UO to create an NK that could fake a disruption role (this would require some changes to the way UO works, changes which I want anyway and this builds on top of)
2. Make the interaction with TPs more beneficial to the Shroud. This would allow Shroud to use TPs to kill a power role, where it otherwise can't
3. Give Shroud access to Powerful attack which right now it doesn't have

[sinful sequoia]

is the shroud interaction with bodyguard even intentional

i wouldnt assume so

[cosmic quail]

It is

[sinful sequoia]

jesus

[cosmic quail]

but I don't care

I want it to be different

I think it'd be cool if you could use TPs to kill a role they were supposed to be protecting

but with current shroud you can't do that because they still do their protective ability

so you just make Bodyguard/Trapper commit low tier god, do nothing with Cleric/Crusader, and give Trickster a free shot

Oh wait I forgot Crusader is different in modded, fuck me

[limpid bane]

the thing about crusader

[sinful sequoia]

crusader in vanilla:

[timber phoenix]

Cleric Ambusher

[dry jungle]

burn it

[dark vector]

problem with btos2 crusader is its pretty much socilate but better designed

if we were to transfer btos2 crus into vanilla I wouldn't really like having two very similar roles

[winged dirge]

Easy

ban Socialite from ranked

done

[cosmic quail]

MFW All Any:

[timber phoenix]

Clearly the solution to all our problems is "just ban it from ranked"

[limpid bane]

pirate tier solution

[winged dirge]

I don't play vanilla at all, it's mainly a suggestion to make the good crusader make sense in that place.

[grand ocean]

oh are we revisiting NK
sure
interesting
anyways ima update links later

[lucid cairn]

Oh right

😭

But wouldn't that be on the same priority?

[icy comet]

ITS OVER 9000

[dry jungle]

w

[cosmic quail]

https://tenor.com/view/vegeta-its-over9000-gif-14419267

[limpid bane]

real

[sinful sequoia]

fuck it

Werewolf

[cosmic quail]

Uh

Lemme find mine

It’s a pretty small change

https://discord.com/channels/1110363758792036352/1188727072680583238

[gaunt cipher]

needs more consistent kills

0.5 KPN-inf kpn isn't good role design

[next forum]

cough cough https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1272988708613918760

[winged dirge]

#1292651087190294589 message

It's free real estate

This is Harry's thing

But it's probably the simplest and most functional there is.

[sinful sequoia]

live tracking ? real

[next forum]

i love live tracking

[cosmic quail]

Live tracking sounds like not only a coding nightmare

But a perversion of the Day/Night cycle

[dim moth]

I don't hate live tracking but how would it even work in execution

[limpid bane]

I think it'd be like currently in coven

you see who your known allies target

i figure it'd be like that

[sinful sequoia]

#1293615234917077053 message plug

[grand ocean]

🔥

that post died
sadge

[lucid cairn]

Oh I have a rework

As per usual

Oh I need to edit something

[dark vector]

no

rampage needs to go

[fallen crag]

Rampagfine on wewof

[winged dirge]

drunk nuggy returns

[sinful sequoia]

wewof

[winged dirge]

wewof

[dark vector]

Rampage is a poorly designed mech

visit kills = bad for da game

[dry jungle]

tbh without rampage werewolf is just boring

its the only role that rampages except war

not counting jinx

[sinful sequoia]

if you define rampage by kills based on visits

then you can throw in vet and base game crus

or if you also define rampage by effects applied upon visits

[icy comet]

can we "rework" pirate

(remove it)

[sinful sequoia]

arso and pb unless im missing something

[dry jungle]

to wut

[dark vector]

i've already stated how vet and jinx are awful roles

base game crusader is also

[dry jungle]

jinx is fine it just needs something extra

[sinful sequoia]

jinx is not fine

it can either be an infinite extra kpn source for coven or it can out itself within one night

[cosmic quail]

the funniest thing about ambusher/jinx

is that it seems like a role fundamentally designed to counter the TP/LO meta

but with one message it goes from countering TP/LO to being countered by it

In a game where TP/LO meta had already been reviled for years

[dry jungle]

I actually have an idea now

[cosmic quail]

Oh?

[dry jungle]

So the point of the Jinx/Ambusher is to counter TPLO meta correct? What if instead of ambushing directly it has to be based around the visits.

The more visits the stronger your ability?

[dark vector]

Jinx is not fine

not even close to fine

[dry jungle]

Jinx is a decent coven role I won't be bothered playing as the only issue with Jinx is because of it's reveal otherwise its a low B tier

[dark vector]

are you joking?

[dry jungle]

Why would I be?

[dark vector]

Jinx is a horrid design role

Coven shouldn't have separate KPN roles to begin with but Jinx alone can change covens Killing power to 2.

Despite that the role is a mess of inconsistency

[dry jungle]

So

[dark vector]

So?

[dry jungle]

were just going to ignore

Ritualist and Conjurer?

[dark vector]

no

[sinful sequoia]

nobody said that

[dark vector]

Conjurer for one should be coven power, ritualist shouldn't directly kill imo

[dry jungle]

sitting in the corner with one being able to snipe 3 times mind you?

[sinful sequoia]

any ck that has independent killing is inherently unbalanced

unless theres a drawback for it which there is but its a shit drawback

[dark vector]

I'm somewhat fine with 1 kill if its limited to one coven role, even then im a little iffy

[sinful sequoia]

and not even all ck have it

pois already has bonus kp for no reason

and its not even in ck

[dry jungle]

Well all counterparts need something different I don't agree with poison by any means though

[sinful sequoia]

ck is in a rough spot cause the most balanced role in it is conjurer

and as a whole daykills are pretty bad

so it isnt great

[dry jungle]

Conjurer is also fine

[sinful sequoia]

for ck standards sure

[dry jungle]

just give it the deputy syndrome but without dt immunity

Ok I did come up with a way to "fix" the jinx ability but idk if I like it

[cosmic quail]

Unfortunately we can't go and remove an entire subalignment so

[sinful sequoia]

i didnt suggest that

[cosmic quail]

unfortunately we're gonna have to live with the fact that CK exists

[sinful sequoia]

but sadly its true

[dry jungle]

Jinx - Night 🌙 & Infinite ♾️

• Every night wait in a player's home.

One visitors - You will scare off their visitor blocking their ability to take effect on them.
Two visitors - You will scare off the first visitor and deal a Basic Attack the second.
Three visitors - You will deal a Basic Attack to the home owner however, you will be caught.

• Anymore than 3 you will perform the same action as you would with Three visitors.

[cosmic quail]

So Jinx = Coven Starspawn?

[dry jungle]

[dry jungle]

Essentially

[sinful sequoia]

ew coven powerful attack

[dry jungle]

not too 100% on the powerful attack

[dry jungle]

reduce to basic?

[sinful sequoia]

we love not giving neutrals time of day

uh

[cosmic quail]

Three visitors - You will deal a Powerful Attack to the home owner however, you will be caught.
Also this prevents it from being effective on TP/LO meta as you can expect more than 3 people to potentially visit the TP/LO call

[sinful sequoia]

oh no

[dry jungle]

L neutrals should've had powerful defense

[cosmic quail]

real

[dry jungle]

Well it's meant to act as a risk for attacking them sort of, going above that wouldn't really make much sense

[cosmic quail]

but like

[dry jungle]

since most times out of 10 yourgetting a cleric and a bg

[cosmic quail]

that's kinda the entire point

the point is to counter tp/lo meta by making it unsafe to have all the TPs dogpile onto one guy

And because it doesn't directly attack the person you're visiting, you don't have to worry about something like a BG or Trapper slapping you

[dry jungle]

Correct thats the point of blocking a visitor and attacking the other

[cosmic quail]

the three visitors being so unsafe completely fucks with that idea

[dry jungle]

like as you said

[cosmic quail]

because it is entirely realistic to have three visitors on the TP/LO call

[dry jungle]

I mean I could just do the same thing with 3 visitors

[cosmic quail]

LO visits in BToS2, right?

[dry jungle]

block the 2 and prioritize attacking the other

[dry jungle]

Correct no longer astral

[cosmic quail]

yea so you only need one RT TP

or two Lookouts

[dry jungle]

I did have another idea for oracle-jinx but double of the same tp isnt as often

[cosmic quail]

With that said
I have wanted "Coven Starspawn" for a while
So this idea is interesting (although my original idea was for it to be on Poisoner)

[dry jungle]

especially for BToS2

[dry jungle]

Yours replaces poison which is good

[cosmic quail]

yea

i wanted to give poisoner

something that it could do that witch can't

so that it's not just a worse witch

(In my dreams for UO expansion, Witch and Poisoner would also give UO)

[dark vector]

you can likely rename it and redefine it

[sinful sequoia]

❌

[dark vector]

Uo expansion generalising the message?

[cosmic quail]

Yeah

[dark vector]

I dont think it would make sense that roleblocking someone would give the UO message.

Something like "someone prevented you from taking action last night" but i get what you mean

[cosmic quail]

“Something Occupied your night. Your ability failed!”

You can change the flavor if it matters that much

I just want disruption abilities to have a generic message, and for evils to have more of them

That way they are all more fakeable

[dark vector]

I don't like the uo message lol

sounds silly

but yeah :)

100% agree

would help with tav being less trusted

[sinful sequoia]

this is good

[sinful sequoia]

ok

weve done shroud and ww

let me spin a wheel

ok low key boring but whatever

Arsonist

[timber phoenix]

How consistent is arso's passive dousing on the night of an ignite (getting visited while igniting)

[sinful sequoia]

i think if you ignite + someone visits you (whose not doused) they get passively doused but they dont get checked by ignite iirc

[dry jungle]

give it frame and its fixed

[timber phoenix]

Frame as in "appear as arso" or "appear sus to several TI"?

[dry jungle]

oh and ig douse people if its attacked and can only ignite their douses themselves and not by another arso

[dry jungle]

Appear as Arsonist

doesnt arso appear sus so whats the difference

[timber phoenix]

Pretty sure it's inno outside of compliance

[dry jungle]

oh ok

well if it doesnt appear sus to plain ti it'd be kind of useless to frame no?

it'd screw over np and pm sure

but like its just a reveal screwover

[timber phoenix]

NP getting tricked by douses feels silly

[dry jungle]

yeah it does doesnt it

like maybe nps arent effected by douse frames?

[timber phoenix]

Yeah just make them bypass it

[dry jungle]

that would be fine

RIP pm

Reveal 8
"Your target is a maniac obsessed with fire. They must be a Arsonist!"

Reveal 2
"Your target is a maniac obsessed with fire. They must be a Arsonist!"

[timber phoenix]

Conjurer nuking a coroner cuz the PM revealed them as arso would be funny

[dry jungle]

ngl would

[timber phoenix]

Also ig this makes arso unable to trespass (unless something else has higher frame priority)

[fallen crag]

I feel likke arso was said alr but

Arso is fine honestly

Did it suffer a bit going into tos 2?

Yea

But it was also a monster in tos 1 and it suffering a bit still hasn't knocked it off its podium

Consistently the best winning NK by far

[dark vector]

thats because arsonist has a lot of utility and is more hidden then other nks

turns out just adding wacky extra kpn to nk such as SK blood lust doesn't always fix the issue

winrates would likely go up if you toned down the amount of roles that can outright delete nks along some other changes the some nks that need it.

[sinful sequoia]

if arso was said i didnt see it for sure

it is consistenty the best nk here rn

definitely has an advantage over other nks by not alerting everyone to its presence first chance it gets

[limpid bane]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1293237759422496778 arsonist mentioned?

🔌

ok bye

[dark vector]

I think invest only needs tresspassing

Coroner should be able to find blood with examine, Autopsy still can link players to murders and finds out killers

[sinful sequoia]

?

we talking about arso

[dark vector]

im talking about invest and coroner :3

arso is fine for now lol

[sinful sequoia]

ok random intervention but sure i can agree with it

i think if arso just gets deception utility itd be fine

[dark vector]

similar to how arso like mini framed invest results?

what sort of deception utility

[sinful sequoia]

framing ?

just douse frames

[dark vector]

so all doused targets would be framed?

[sinful sequoia]

and have it so arso cant ignite np nor jackals

cause thats just a dumb interaction anyways

[dark vector]

jackals?

but what if it isn't jackal

[sinful sequoia]

if... arso is rec

[dark vector]

oh

xD

[sinful sequoia]

lol

[dark vector]

I thought you were talking in general

yeah i agree

[sinful sequoia]

but yeah since arso has unstoppable

it basically bypasses ethereal

and thats just

bleh

it needs unstoppable in practice because if not the only way you could go about it is giving it powerful

and atp igniting would be counteracted by cleric

[dark vector]

invincible ethereal defence?

[lucid cairn]

Not necessarily [ yes I'm late ]
I think it's more so the fact that Rampage is on like four roles

[dark vector]

I think rampage is bad in general

[sinful sequoia]

i think its more simple if igniting np or jackals just silently didnt work

[dark vector]

same issue with giving coven jinx and town vet, inconsistent kpn roles are just bad for the game

[sinful sequoia]

jackals as in if arso is rec

[dark vector]

I wouldn't have a issue with that

[lucid cairn]

I think Jinx would be as a concept would be good if the amount of Town roles that could visit was 99-100%
But Veteran is mainly bad because the kills are entirely locked onto one target and that's it

I agree with inconsistent killpower being harder to balance but it really depends how they're executed

[dark vector]

nah coven being able to have 2kpn because a random role spawned is wild and will always be unbalanced

[lucid cairn]

Oh well yeah

I would like Jinx to be an alternative way to kill instead of extra kills

[dark vector]

that would be almost always useless over standard kills wouldn't it?

this my issue with jinx design x.x

[lucid cairn]

If it appeared as a regular Coven kill and didn't reveal itself then not really

You'd get more safety from TPs and TIs

[dark vector]

but wouldn't you just want to kill the target you went for instead if it was kill neutral

why would you want to ambush and hope to kill a tp or ti, when you can just choose to kill them

I just dont think the whole concept works

I mean it's intresting but also like blah

I'm even iffy on passive dousing but i mainly give arso a slight pass because its impact isn't usually until late game (which is one of the most healthy nk designs)

[lucid cairn]

I'd rather not

[grand ocean]

oh wait

what's next

we skipped a day for this

shouldve been paying attention to this thread smh

mb

[gaunt cipher]

uhh

what are we on

[dry jungle]

I assume were on nk cause we were talking about it

[icy comet]

they were on WW last

(I think)

[limpid bane]

i think we were doing something for arsonist

anyways Ik sk has a proposed rework and all

but what do yall think about this

[gaunt cipher]

boring

[dry jungle]

this is a lot to take in

[gaunt cipher]

tactical hard counters all TP

[dry jungle]

tactic and aggressive is passive? Im assuming

[gaunt cipher]

there's little reason to use aggressive

[limpid bane]

im thinking of nerfing it so if you would get blocked on the first you just dont attack

i probably should just scrap it ig

eh forget about it