valid falcon
[+] Auditing Evils doesn't remove ability charges from them
[+] Smoke Bomb can be used on yourself
[-] Smoke Bomb now only tells you alignment, not exact role
-# Can give the last change to Judge too
I think auditing evils is a bit too punishing, but I don't like that Auditor can accidentally find Tpows even if they were hiding. Audit should only work on them if they open claim imo.
scenic apex
I feel like the second clause might be better on judge
valid falcon
They should both have it
scenic apex
if you're smoked as TPOW you know you're in danger
fierce oyster
I feel like the second clause might be better on judge
its better on both
valid falcon
NP don't need to learn exact role
fierce oyster
if you're smoked as TPOW you know you're in danger
thats bad
tpow should be able to hide
scenic apex
if you're subpoena'd by judge well enjoy being courted moron
fierce oyster
not lol omniscience
valid falcon
I like the meta that Tpows can hide from NP and stuff like Conjurer by fake claiming
It's more fun that way
Open claiming is booring
scenic apex
SS can have the niche of being the only one able to learn exact roles
since they don't know who has it
mighty jackal
[+] Auditing Evils doesn't remove ability charges from them
[+] Smoke Bomb can b...
Cool
I much prefer the alignment learning nerf on Judge than Auditor
valid falcon
I want it on both of them tbf
mighty jackal
But the first ghance is absolutely needed
valid falcon
Not just audi
mighty jackal
Stop stealing my rocks goddamnit
valid falcon
LUL
peak atlas
Theft is an integral part of setup design
Now hand over the overhauls 🔫
valid falcon
eternal oak
[+] Auditing Evils doesn't remove ability charges from them
[+] Smoke Bomb can b...
Lets GOOOO I can now Start Auditing Since N1 without any consequences
Cause This only matters if i RB Berserker N2 or Warlock N1
vivid garnet
I like the meta that Tpows can hide from NP and stuff like Conjurer by fake clai...
^
your fakeclaim means nothing when you get smoked
lapis topaz
i think it should rb if you audit evil
like nothing is stupid too
you dont go around and audit everyone
you are supposed to know how town is
this would also allow for auditor to side an evil faction more
scenic apex
i think it should rb if you audit evil
this change doesn't change that
"[+] Auditing Evils doesn't remove ability charges from them"
Doesn't say anythin' 'bout not rbin'
lapis topaz
"auditing evils doesnt remove ability charges" means for me that they dont get punished
if they still get rbd then fair enough
scenic apex
no
it means that they don't get their charges stolen
TLDR if you Audit a Ritualist, you'll rb them but they'll keep their charges
I think I just said what you said and I might be stupid
lapis topaz
misunderstanding then, i understood that it doesnt punish at all
which would be stupid af
scenic apex
Nope you still get rbd
it just acts if I you were rbd by a tav
like current audi does when Auditing someone without abilities charges
lapis topaz
auditor ignores immunity?
scenic apex
what
scenic apex
yeah he's just gonna be rbd but immune
lapis topaz
the ret said that they were infact roleblocked and audi confirmed auditing them
thats why im confused
scenic apex
Might be a bug
lapis topaz
maybe ret read it wrong
lapis topaz
imagine if there was no pinishment and they start auditing everyone 💀
scenic apex
this is waht I fear with this rework
Smokebomb is already almost never used to delete info
lapis topaz
man ive seen an SK not get info on who jinx was cuz audi fucked the feedback up
eternal oak
I am gonna start auditting random People. With this change 🙂
scenic apex
this might shake the meta a little tho
which might be good
since if you don't have charge you aren't able to know if it's a tav or an auditor that rbd ya
scenic apex
that's a rit issue tbf
lapis topaz
yeah ik
scenic apex
Rit is a good concept but an AWFUL execution
lapis topaz
balancing other roles to make rit good is also shitty
scenic apex
We really need to find mechanics that aren't just "ahaha you die because I guessed your role"
lapis topaz
doomsayer istg
scenic apex
we need something that's dangerous enough to prevent everyone fullclaiming
but not punishing enough to just hard counter half of the TPOWS
'cause rn Rit is just bettter conj most of the time
scenic apex
well rather than an optimal twice it's more of a list of roles that should NEVER be picked
lapis topaz
considering CL will always make themself into the most optical role
CL either stays CL on a heavy killing rolelist or they make themself into rit or conj
which isnt fun
scenic apex
Jinx is bad
HM is way weaker than witch
Why tf would you want to get a Dreamweaver, Poisoner , Wildling, Banshee, Illusionist ect over PM / Necro / Dusa / Enchanter
lapis topaz
matter of fact is
DW isnt that bad
-# if u have VM
a good synergy is VM and medusa
silence a TI for a day and then stone them
2 days where they dont give information and medusa can concentrate on someone more important
eternal oak
Jinx is bad
HM is way weaker than witch
Why tf would you want to get a Dreamweav...
https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1285831525035675650 Tho this is not the way to fix HM this should buff it alittle (I moved it to suggestions yey)
eternal oak
DW isnt that bad
Walmart Auditor
lapis topaz
man i hate how some roles are fucked in certain modes
like necro in rolelists with hidden roles 💀
scenic apex
https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1285831525035675650 Tho this is...
Absolutely not do not buff HM
it's the most infuriating role to play against
scenic apex
Main issue with HM
is that you're forced to keep it weak
because it's just straight up a badly designed role
lapis topaz
its not bad, just hard to buff it
eternal oak
Win condition as HM : Survive
scenic apex
its not bad, just hard to buff it
it's bad
I'm sorry but a wincon you can't prevent is a badly designed role
take death for instance
It's also a wincon role
but it's not infuriating to play against
why?
because when death pops, You fucking know it and you get a day to lynch them
lapis topaz
i personally hate how some roley behave different from vanilla
roles*
like its fine but its hard to keep up
eternal oak
not my crusader 😭
lapis topaz
its just confusing that in vanilla as example
scenic apex
I have to admit
lapis topaz
invest finds blood
scenic apex
I don't get why they didn't remove crus and rework Soc into current crus
lapis topaz
but in btos they chexk for crimes
scenic apex
it make more sense thematically
eternal oak
there also isnt percept
Spy
eternal oak
I still prefer Vanilla spy
lapis topaz
i would rather see it as a nerf personally
scenic apex
You clearly don't know about the fabled PB / Spy interaction in BTOS2
lapis topaz
someone that knows vanilla spy is peak
scenic apex
if you did you would PRAISE BTOS2 spy
lapis topaz
okay wait
so
the only interaction i would see fit is in an apoc mode
and you see an apoc member visit your target
otherwise its bullshit imo
scenic apex
(PB / Spy interaction :
if a bugged PB die, you get the visits of EVERYONE that was plagued, turning you into basically a better tracker / lo for the night)
lapis topaz
the fuck
scenic apex
When a bugged target dies spy get their feedback
lapis topaz
ohh
scenic apex
if a bugged PB dies spy gets PB feedback
lapis topaz
man i forgot that because it never fucking happens lol
scenic apex
and PB feedback is basically EVERY VISIT MADE by plagued players
eternal oak
You have to have PB bugged tho
scenic apex
it happens quite a lot ngl
eternal oak
you have 1/14 you bug PB
eternal oak
No I want to bug TPow.
eternal oak
god which good player claims LO or tracker as PB
:
eternal oak
god which good player claims LO or tracker as PB
Tuba claims Tracker as Warlock
eternal oak
YE
scenic apex
You can claim anything as anything
lapis topaz
how the FUCK
eternal oak
The worst part
When I called someone else because they did that i was accused of Stream sniping
eternal oak
how the FUCK
Baker + Warlock
lapis topaz
You can claim anything as anything
aight bet proceeds to claim warlock as mayor
scenic apex
aight bet *proceeds to claim warlock as mayor*
that's throwing
but the opposite isn't
mighty jackal
i think it should rb if you audit evil
This rework keeps that
mighty jackal
its not bad, just hard to buff it
#1263889112499355848
I’m still confident that this idea fixes HM
mighty jackal
No offense taken
mighty jackal
temporary no offense but i dont vibe with your reworks
Are you a heavy casual player
lapis topaz
oh i did upvote it
mighty jackal
Because my changes are all geared towards competitive play
lapis topaz
i play a little amount of btos2 since it gets active at around 10 pm by me
mighty jackal
i play a little amount of btos2 since it gets active at around 10 pm by me
That makes sense
What is it that you don’t vibe out with my changes
lapis topaz
i did upvote the HM rework tho, looks like i have dementia
mighty jackal
The tldr of it is
lapis topaz
What is it that you don’t vibe out with my changes
some stuff just seems out of place, its my opinion so i cant justify it more than "its my opinion"
just feels out of place sometimes
doesnt mean its a bad idea tho
mighty jackal
Each of those three changes fixes a core issue with HM
And since two are buffs and one is a nerf
The role is kept in a better, more balanced spot while also shedding its main problematic aspects
lapis topaz
yeah that rework was fine imo
mighty jackal
some stuff just seems out of place, its my opinion so i cant justify it more tha...
Usually when someone answers like this
It’s because they don’t like the general principles behind the design
I design based off my experience with far better sdgs than tos
lapis topaz
its your rework so ofc you understand it better than me
mighty jackal
So diehard tos fans who have never played other sdgs might see some changes as odd
Since they move the game away from button mashing simulator into
Actual social deduction
lapis topaz
some stuff that also factors it is what kind of words you use, ik it sounds stupid at first but english isnt my first language so there are some words that i misunderstand
yk?
mighty jackal
Ah that makes sense
somber brook
I design based off my experience with far better sdgs than tos
tell us some far better sdgs if you can (other than botc because i already heard of that one)
mighty jackal
It’s mainly botc
mighty jackal
I'm sorry but a wincon you can't prevent is a badly designed role
There are three issues with current HM
mighty jackal
because it's just straight up a badly designed role
Not if you adjust its wincon
anyway
The three issues are
I saw these three issues and ended up fixing them via making the role more interactable and more of a backup win condition
And I think that's cleaned up the design a lot
mighty jackal
Jinx is bad
HM is way weaker than witch
Why tf would you want to get a Dreamweav...
Poisoner is a good role
lapis topaz
true pois is good
mighty jackal
I have no clue why people shit on Poisoner so much
In tos1, you would be clowned on if you called Consort bad
lapis topaz
poisoner is just an annoying role without cleric
mighty jackal
And Poisoner is a better Consort
Even though its worse in this game due to how town is designed and its overshadowed by Witch
lapis topaz
but its whatevs
mighty jackal
Evil rbers are still a very strong design
mighty jackal
poisoner is just an annoying role without cleric
The kill needs to go
lapis topaz
its better than killing the person
mighty jackal
Okay but how would you execute that idea well
lapis topaz
honestly no idea
not even gonna try to justify it
i just think a debuff of some sorts is fair enough
mighty jackal
That's the issue with game design
Anyone can come up with good ideas
Coming up with a good design is harder
And its all because execution is difficult
knotty kayak
Poisoner is bad in All Any and I think that's where most of the flack comes from
lapis topaz
yeah
knotty kayak
It's also loud and roleblockers are always considered suspicious
lapis topaz
i hate how easy poisoner can stop a cleric IF there even is one
scenic apex
Poisoner is a good role
Witch is straight up better
scenic apex
also funny
mighty jackal
Witch is straight up better
And?
knotty kayak
Yeah yeah
lapis topaz
if you have a fullclaiming cleric in a pois game then GG
mighty jackal
(Poisoner without the kill that is)
lapis topaz
witch is better pois
mighty jackal
Tbf
The Hooker design gets mildly fucked by hangover
Poisoner isnt nearly as strong as Consort for that reason
But it's still a good role
lapis topaz
instead of rbing, it redirects them. which is devastating for vigi
scenic apex
Witch / Poisoner got the same overlap Amne / Ret got
scenic apex
Its a rolebloat issue
We have roles with the same niche sharing the same faction or worse the same align
mighty jackal
also funny
What about this is funny
scenic apex
What about this is funny
I said the same thing twice and you responded differently
knotty kayak
With Necro passing in modded, what would you guys consider your Necronomicon order?
mighty jackal
I said the same thing twice and you responded differently
Because I had two comments to make
scenic apex
With Necro passing in modded, what would you guys consider your Necronomicon ord...
Necro is the best bookholder period
mighty jackal
HM is a badly designed role: here's why
and
This directly addresses a complain people have with the role
knotty kayak
...
My order
mighty jackal
With Necro passing in modded, what would you guys consider your Necronomicon ord...
Necromancer (assuming no good corpses)
Medusa (pre-buff)
Conjurer
Dreamweaver
Jinx
Ritualist (when not killing)
Banshee
Hex Master (balanced modes)
Illusionist
Wildling
Enchanter (but I steal the book whenever I want to alterate)
Potion Master
Medusa (post-buff)
Voodoo Master (might swap with Pois depending on town lineup)
Poisoner (might swap with VM depending on town lineup)
Witch
Coven Leader
Hex Master (chaos modes)
knotty kayak
Forgot about Jinx
mighty jackal
also swap vm and pois whenever you would get maj via silencing
knotty kayak
VMer's a good book sponge before that yeah
mighty jackal
VM's actual silence mechanic is a sleeper stat
You can shut people up for a day
That's pretty huge against TI
Or aggressive players who might push on coven otherwise
mighty jackal
Oh cool my name is actually a good color now
knotty kayak
I remember when someone wanted to nerf Voodoo Master to three charges, which I thought was an indirect buff since that incentivizes Voodoo Master to play quieter
eternal oak
You can't run from the IRS
IDC WHAT YOU SEND I IWLL NOT PAY MY TAXES
knotty kayak
And three charges is realistically all you need
mighty jackal
- Necromancer without good revives
- Medusa
- CL without retrains
- Conjurer wit...
CL should always retrain into Conj
Pretty much
So
That first point is minuit
knotty kayak
Conj or Witch yeah
mighty jackal
Necromancer (assuming no good corpses)
Medusa (pre-buff)
Conjurer
Dreamweaver
Ji...
Shifted some things around a bit
scenic apex
Necromancer - Straight up the best bookholder for the early game
Jinx - Reliable bookholder
Conjurer without nuke / Ritualist with no charges / Illu who used MH / CL out of retrains / Dusa out of charges - No longer an useful role, can be used to kill
Banshee / Wildling / Dreamweaver - Straight up useless
Potion master - Reveal is only valuable if you got a way to use it
Poisoner - I'd rather RB a TP than rb the guy i'm killing unless he's vet
Medusa / Enchanter - Both share a similar niche, both are pretty useful when not killing.
Ritualist - Guaranteed kills if you know your target role, but is susceptible to RB
Conjurer - Guaranteed kill , more valuable than rit
Coven Leader - Unless you got a perfect comp, in which case necro should be the bookholder, the retrains are too valuable
Witch - Witch is always useful. It's a reveal + Control , meaning you can straight up shut down any cooperation attempt if you don't have the book.
Voodoo Master - Broken role, prevent town from regaining maj. Must be kept alive
Hex Master (Basically 2Kpn if they don't have the book)
mighty jackal
I forgot about PM
eternal oak
I like my dreamweaver Bookless
mighty jackal
Eh, its between Ench and Medusa
mighty jackal
I like my dreamweaver Bookless
get out
knotty kayak
CL should always retrain into Conj
While rare, as CL generally speaking I'd rather use my two retrains on others than myself if I could, for instance if Conj shoots it's missile and then I turn them into Ritualist and I turn the Dreamweaver into Potion Master
mighty jackal
Necromancer - Straight up the best bookholder for the early game
Jinx - Reliable...
Also Medusa and Ench no longer share similar niches
scenic apex
Also Medusa and Ench no longer share similar niches
they do
but not in the way you expect
mighty jackal
They both alter flips and create mislynches, sure
But does that mean every CD has the same niche
Not really
You're generalizing there
scenic apex
They both alter flips and create mislynches, sure
and both are more useful by visiting targets that will not die rn
eternal oak
The moment I see someone "I was dreamweaved but Dreamweaver died" while no DW in graveyard it confirms 2 things. Its CL game and That person is confirmed
mighty jackal
and both are more useful by visiting targets that will not die rn
That is false
Enchanter has 80% of its power packed into its alteration
Without that its a D tier role
C tier at best
scenic apex
That is false
Enchanter has 80% of its power packed into its alteration
It's BTOS2 we're talking about
mighty jackal
It's BTOS2 we're talking about
Did I stutter
scenic apex
players don't know how to read
mighty jackal
Well you cant blame skill issue towns for Enchanter's failures
scenic apex
but in BTOS2 the frame is way more potent than the alterations
eternal oak
"here were dragons"
mighty jackal
but in BTOS2 the frame is way more potent than the alterations
Again, not really, but its whatever
The frame
Isnt even buffed that much
scenic apex
The amount of times I alterated a real TI will to frame someone and the town straight up IGNORED their willa fter it was pointed out
mighty jackal
The amount of times I alterated a real TI will to frame someone and the town str...
Did they post beforehand
scenic apex
they did
mighty jackal
Altering into TI is often a mistake
eternal oak
The amount of times I alterated a real TI will to frame someone and the town str...
Don't Alterate into TI
mighty jackal
You have to alter into a role that would have a reason to hide their accusation or produces it that night
Like Vigi/Crus
scenic apex
I altered a seer will to say they would visit a guy claiming vet
who claimed to alert
seer didn't die to vet
nobody cared
even after I pointed it out
knotty kayak
A funny synergy is VMer and Enchanter by that logic lol
mighty jackal
That just means you were playing with a dumb town that got lucky
scenic apex
yeah that's what I'm saying
mighty jackal
A funny synergy is VMer and Enchanter by that logic lol
VM Ench is very strong
You silence N1 and then alter said silence into a silenced Seer the next day
knotty kayak
Imagine someone reveals as a TI, and then you silence them the next night and Alterate them the night after
scenic apex
town's so dumb they loop back to beign smart
scenic apex
Imagine someone reveals as a TI, and then you silence them the next night and Al...
isn't that a common play?
mighty jackal
Two free mislynches
scenic apex
I saw it happen a lotta times
knotty kayak
I've never seen it personally
scenic apex
usually it's by enchanting into tracker
and saying they dnv
since tracker is unfoolable by anything other than MH
scenic apex
Nuggy jumpscare
valid falcon
scenic apex
You know what I miss? Reactive frames
eternal oak
scenic apex
Arsonist / Hex Master
They used to frame whoever they visited as their respective role
considering the amount of align cops in the game
valid falcon
Well that’s because old invest was there
scenic apex
Yeah but
valid falcon
They didn’t affect anybody else
knotty kayak
Imagine Hex Master turns into a Hysteria lmao
eternal oak
You are an Arso
You are an Arso !
everybody is Arso !
valid falcon
Also them framing was dumb because you want primed targets to live
scenic apex
Imagine if douse affected :
Coroner
Investigator (Trespassing)
Sheriff (You're now NS)
Seer (Enemies)
Psychic (can spawn in the evil vision)
etc
valid falcon
Imagine if douse affected :
Coroner
Investigator (Trespassing)
Sheriff (You're n...
Now doused targets are more likely to die
scenic apex
I mean I do like frames in general
eternal oak
Imagine if douse affected :
Coroner
Investigator (Trespassing)
Sheriff (You're n...
he-hell nah
scenic apex
Tricking people is always fun
valid falcon
Hex Master at least had a team to get majority
That’s working against Arsonist though
scenic apex
Also uh
knotty kayak
scenic apex
am I the only one that finds stupid how necro can use HM to win against any role in the game
or at least draw
valid falcon
That’s strong af
knotty kayak
Yeah
scenic apex
I do like my Bless concept tho
but I know my PB alt isn't good
but I want to find a way to make Bless into a role so badly
knotty kayak
Thought your PB was a reference to a game
knotty kayak
Isn't it just Accompany + Illusion?
scenic apex
Nope
not at all
A Blessed player will :
Never show any Crimes to an Investigator and anyone visiting them will not be considered to be Trespassing
Always appear Friends to a Seer
Always appear in the Psychic Good Vision and Never appear in the Psychic Bad Vision
Not be considered to be an Harmful visit to any role that relies on them
Never appear to be the Killer to a Coroner
Never show Suspicious to a Sheriff
You reverse frame anyone
parasiting any info the TI might get from them
You basically prevent town from getting info from confirmed townies
by overwhelming them with positive results
knotty kayak
Oh it's just Illusion
scenic apex
not really
In practice it might look like one
but it doesn't work like one
the goal of Illusioning someone is to prevent them from being found out
Bless is applied mainly to townies
but can be spread into your own team if you kill whoever is bleesed
knotty kayak
the goal of Illusioning someone is to prevent them from being found out
That's the goal of Illusion, but mechanically, Bless is just an Illusion plague
scenic apex
Except for the Seer / Investigator / Psychic
knotty kayak
Since we're advertising PB acolytes now, I also have an alt that Illusions lol
scenic apex
ngl
knotty kayak
(Illusion mostly targets Town but can target other Apoc)
scenic apex
I think PB main issue
is that Pestilence isn't threatening at all
Like apocs pre BTOS2 rework are all badly designed
knotty kayak
I remember Thslo proposed a change to Pestilence where if a person doesn't move, they gain a stack of Plague
So you couldn't just sit still and win
knotty kayak
LMAO forgot about Tav
scenic apex
ret casually visiting the graveyard every night to escape the plague
also admirer Bestow would basically be a death sentence
knotty kayak
TS roles casually capitalizing on that change
knotty kayak
- Necromancer without good revives
- Medusa
- CL without retrains
- Conjurer wit...
Also going back to this, the reason HMer is so high is due to it having an Astral Attack with the book
mighty jackal
am I the only one that finds stupid how necro can use HM to win against any role...
No, everyone agrees its dumb
knotty kayak
https://tenor.com/view/never-cook-again-never-cook-cook-never-goku-gif-396247452...
😢
mighty jackal
Whatever hexes do as a side utility must be interactable
Else, the role remains as a silent stealth bomber that everyone hates
fierce oyster
just a random idea but what if audi was able to self smoke to stop people being smoked as confirmed not auditor
like ss self isolation
eternal oak
Self Audit fr
valid falcon
just a random idea but what if audi was able to self smoke to stop people being ...
Ah! That’s not a bad idea actually
fierce oyster
Self Audit fr
real
vivid garnet
wait auditor cant self?
unkempt karma
At least SS can self
fierce oyster
justice for auditor
unkempt karma
justice for auditor
They support the IRS, get em
lusty compass
[+] Smoke Bomb can be used on yourself
what
doesnt this defeat the point
me when I self (someone visited me)
supple portal
> [+] Smoke Bomb can be used on yourself
what
I think it's suppost to work like ss where you just self for your own protection/confirmation
unkempt karma
me when I self (someone visited me)
You’re now “confirmed” not Auditor
lusty compass
mmk
fierce oyster
doesnt this defeat the point
no
fierce oyster
just a random idea but what if audi was able to self smoke to stop people being ...
.
mighty jackal
just a random idea but what if audi was able to self smoke to stop people being ...
Today I learned you can't already do this
eternal oak
Wait you guys didn't know he CAN"T do it???
fierce oyster
the fact that you cant is dumb
considering ss can self
(to prevent people from being hard confirmed as not x)
unkempt karma
Ig because “what is the point of wasting your ability” even though you can deny TIs/TPs from getting info off of you if you self
fierce oyster
or to give credibility to yourself
unkempt karma
Ig because “what is the point of wasting your ability” even though you can deny ...
And Retri ig
fierce oyster
why would audit waste a night, after all?
unkempt karma
Auditor’s smokebomb is just budget Starspawn but learns role
fierce oyster
and ss can self 😭
valid falcon
Today I learned you can't already do this
Did you get into btos?
Or is it still not working
mighty jackal
I learned it from the people in this thread
