Jester Change

[silk brook]

Which is bad

Because anti-everyone is basically just randomizing the game a little bit then fucking off

Like Pirate, or how Doom works in practice

Or vanilla exe 🤢

[red mango]

Just make Jester have a lesser punishment on evils

Like a super roleblock

[maiden dagger]

wouldn't this be basically useless for apocs?

[silk brook]

In ATT that's true

[granite ember]

so why bother keeping the ne subalignment and not cramming them into pariah

[maiden dagger]

like you wouldn't wanna become an sc day 3

[silk brook]

Because that would create swing

NP are still very different

"NP Lites" doesn't mean like, literally mini NP roles

[granite ember]

make changes to them then kick them to np

[silk brook]

Just neutrals that are angled against town

[maiden dagger]

and the only apoc role I can see being switched for a coven role is probably pb

[granite ember]

not 1:1 copies

[red mango]

Jester can just literally play with evils and doesn't have to deceive Town into voting them

[silk brook]

We tried this many times with old exe

It's not a good idea imo

There are plenty of "NP Exe" roles out there

[maiden dagger]

and even then it might be better to just stay as pb

you get the mass info then extra kills when you transform

[silk brook]

To be 100% fair

I kind of stopped considering pure apoc modes

I mean it's valid ATT is there still

(which also doesn't have jester for reference)

[maiden dagger]

jesters could even troll the pandora team by targeting their baker

[silk brook]

And also that has an NP anyway so there's one out-of-play apoc

[silk brook]

They don't have to swap

[red mango]

Just like how claiming Pirate is safe in Vanilla, this would make it do claiming Jester is safe

[silk brook]

And if the Berserker is dead, they can change into a Berserker

[deft hedge]

yeah i assumed it'd be a choice

[red mango]

Town can't do shit to take it out

[deft hedge]

like with CL retrain

[red mango]

Evils don't really care for it

[silk brook]

They can just choose the same role that they already are even if there's no special rejection UI

[maiden dagger]

the mode I'm considering here is pjr

since that's where jest appears with pandora

but it might appear in more modes with this change, similar to exe

[silk brook]

There's only two apoc there

They can change into the third out-of-play one if they wish

Or just, do nothing

Then Jest had literally 0 impact sure but

Who cares

They gave evils an option and evils didn't take it, that's all

That also still casts doubt on if the swap happened, anyway

[deft hedge]

it's essentially a boon for managing to give the jest a hand

[red mango]

You were Haunted by the Jester! You couldn't do anything last night.

[deft hedge]

yes we've been through this.

[silk brook]

This rework was created because we were in the middle of another boring ahh jester rework thread and I shat this out of my brain mid convo

So like

I'm not considering that here

[maiden dagger]

there's also a thing I can see jesters doing

[red mango]

Evils can keep Jester as a free vote

[maiden dagger]

it doesn't really affect this at all

[deft hedge]

jester as a roleblock is interesting, and an idea i enjoy, but i do like this current idea better

[maiden dagger]

but what if a jester says "I'm targeting 6 if they don't die they're evil"

[silk brook]

That can fall under foul play

No reason to do that

No reason to change the rework around it imo

[maiden dagger]

btos2 players probably wouldn't do that

[deft hedge]

that's what i like to call a "dick move"

[maiden dagger]

I remember in the short time frame when doom only killed 1 you had doomsayers using death notes and whispers to out the other ones

just all the time

[red mango]

Jackal gamemode
D1 "I'm Jester. Siding evils."

[deft hedge]

with this rework, jester essentially becomes fully anti town, so giving town a boon AFTER WINNING could be potentially categorized as throwing?

[granite ember]

this isnt a bad strategy though lmao

[red mango]

That's my issue

[granite ember]

if town didnt luck out and get a vigilante or jailor you can just win lmao

[silk brook]

The vigi who wants to confirm themselves:

[granite ember]

or trick with an attack

[granite ember]

1/4 in tk

then rt nonsense

[silk brook]

The fact this is possible makes that a bad strategy

[deft hedge]

or dep

[silk brook]

You can do full claims* every time there's only a 1/3 chance of rit

[granite ember]

vigilantes arent guaranteed

[red mango]

Relying on a random role that's not in the game all the time doesn't make it a valid strategy

[granite ember]

dep cant shoot DI roles

unless recruited

[red mango]

Dep can't shoot jest

[granite ember]

or tt

or just not town

[red mango]

Baker can even Bread the Jester

[deft hedge]

did jest gain DI in btos2?

[silk brook]

And relying on that role to not spawn in order for it to work makes it a bad strategy 🙃

[red mango]

It also has counterplay with the scum vest

[silk brook]

Jest is detection immune yea

[deft hedge]

oh

[silk brook]

Then that can go

[granite ember]

more times than not you can just claim to be the jester and live to be hung or rarely die

🙃

[red mango]

Also what kind of argument is that?

[silk brook]

Yes because it currently has an ability that can kill evils

[silk brook]

A valid one? No counterargument?

[maiden dagger]

the vest

[silk brook]

^

[still flame]

You can deduce if a role spawned or not though then employ said strat

[maiden dagger]

what vest?

[quartz axle]

There is no vest

[maiden dagger]

someone said something about a vest?

[silk brook]

survivor

[maiden dagger]

anyways

[deft hedge]

it's my new fleece vest

[granite ember]

[deft hedge]

i find it very comfy

do you think it looks good

[silk brook]

You can, but that's also gonna begin to look like an evil play over time

[deft hedge]

i think it compliments my eyes

[maiden dagger]

https://tenor.com/view/lucio-overwatch-gun-shoot-meme-gif-22075949

[silk brook]

It's the dedication that makes that work

[red mango]

If there's a role that can't be countered 75% of the time at random, isn't that an inherently flawed role?

[granite ember]

deputy moment

[silk brook]

That's not how spawning works

Also you're forgetting Jailord

[still flame]

Usually you do that from D2 I mean, any later seems scum

[granite ember]

20% in tpow bucket iirc

[deft hedge]

okay hold on

[red mango]

Jailor ain't confirmed either

[granite ember]

whats the jr rolelist

[deft hedge]

jester would mainly spawn in pjr, correct?

[granite ember]

for town

[silk brook]

20% tpow bucket plus the chance to spawn in TK and every CT slot

[deft hedge]

i'm going the calcs

[silk brook]

Very much a non zero chance

[maiden dagger]

that's the vigi

dep would miss

[granite ember]

yeah ok but sunlight

[deft hedge]

i'll start with pjr

[granite ember]

and therefore dep

[silk brook]

I mean considering this became more anti town, Dep could be allowed to shoot Jester

[granite ember]

framed jester

[red mango]

Imagine an evil role that you can't kill UNLESS there's the presence of two roles that would be able to kill it

[maiden dagger]

dep should be able to do that anyways

[red mango]

That are not guaranteed

[granite ember]

jester just aint healthy tbh

[red mango]

Relying on random chance to even have the possibility to counter it is bad

[maiden dagger]

it'd only raise the town from having about 2 and a half counters to about 3 and a half counters

[silk brook]

This is a dumb argument anyway, it's about whether all jesters would use some dumb strategy and open claim D1

[red mango]

So what if it's a non-zero chance

It should be 100%

[silk brook]

Even though their ability is now evil-sided

[red mango]

There should be counterplay

[silk brook]

Even though that's a lame and boring way to play

[deft hedge]

how many town roles exist in btos2

[red mango]

Remove Jester at that point

[quartz axle]

Jester will never be deleted, so it can either be as good as possible or you will just let it be toxic because "Well Jester sux"

lol

[maiden dagger]

at least 7

but let me think

[silk brook]

Remove jester because people might claim D1 wtf are you going on about

Have you forgotten what you were arguing about

[red mango]

Kills Town

Roleblocks evils

[maiden dagger]

8 tis, 5 tps, 5 tpows, 4 ts, 4 tks

26

I think

[silk brook]

Anyway

[deft hedge]

alright

[silk brook]

I'd be interested to know the stats

I'm not much in a mood to keep going on about Jester though haha

[maiden dagger]

oh right amne isn't technically a "ts" but my counting is still correct

[red mango]

Evils have no reason to kill it because it can't harm them

Town has no way to kill it unpess if they rolled two roles with direct killing potential

[quartz axle]

Yeah, you're trolling again.

[red mango]

That's my argument

[silk brook]

I think we've exhausted everything I actually wanna talk about

[quartz axle]

^

[granite ember]

i can dream jester gets deleted though

[red mango]

Tf is wrong with making Haunt roleblock evils

[maiden dagger]

jester is stinky and smells bad

we're all aware

[red mango]

I know. Giving it a new problem isn't a good fix

[deft hedge]

my calculations are probably incorrect, but:

[maiden dagger]

it fixes the problem of jesters being very mean and cruel and bullying the poor evil team

and the neutrals

[silk brook]

I HATE ANTI-EVERYONE NEUTS GRAAH

hate is a strong word actually

But they stinky smell stink

[maiden dagger]

despise

[granite ember]

[deft hedge]

pandora jackal returns has 1 tk slot (1/4 chance), 1 tpow slot (1/5 chance), and 3 rt slots (2/25 since one tpow will be guaranteed and out of the running), meaning there is a 69% chance to spawn either a vigi or a jailor to deal with the jester

[silk brook]

LOL

Well, that's not a bad chance

[granite ember]

ok that seems unusually high

though

[silk brook]

Clearly though the solution is

[maiden dagger]

neutral killings suck it's true

[deft hedge]

yeah, hence why i said it was probably incorrect

[silk brook]

We bring back JAILOR META 🗣️

[maiden dagger]

unless they're like

[silk brook]

JAILOR IN EVERY MODE LETS GO BABY

[maiden dagger]

really stacked

[granite ember]

i don’t think 70% of games have a jailor or vigi

[maiden dagger]

and fun to play

[quartz axle]

NOW

[deft hedge]

WOOOO JAILORD SWEEP

[maiden dagger]

like I've heard about the tol nks

[silk brook]

To be 100% fair, NKs* are like fun chaos roles but I don't think there's really much of a point to them?

[deft hedge]

i feel like i messed something up with the calculations

[silk brook]

In like a "Oh I can specifically use NKs for this reason!"

[silk brook]

Tbh I don't think so

[granite ember]

time to somehow merge nks into factions

[silk brook]

Jailor has a 20% chance of spawning

That's likely factoring in

And also Vigi can spawn in like lots of slots

[deft hedge]

also, the chance would be the same for normal JR since the tk/tpow/rt slots are the same

[silk brook]

It just has a lower chance to spawn in CT

[maiden dagger]

they're just there to make your game faster or put more pressure on both teams

[silk brook]

Compliance also poopoo stink

[granite ember]

shouldnt it have a higher chance because no tpow in ct

[deft hedge]

neither pjr nor jr has CT slots, only RT, which could contribute to the higher chance since most slots can spawn both vigi and jailor

[granite ember]

no like intergrate neutral killings into the coven / apoc

[silk brook]

Lower chance than spawning in TK I mean

[granite ember]

[silk brook]

🤯

[maiden dagger]

let's not forget about apoc also basically being that

[granite ember]

hired guns moment

[deft hedge]

:3

[silk brook]

Yeah apoc stink too

[maiden dagger]

bers is jugg

[silk brook]

Pandora is better

[granite ember]

that one game was ass though

shroud died d1

[deft hedge]

well yeah fangun died d2 because i fucked up my claim

[maiden dagger]

am I the only one that finds that games with apoc are just insufferable to play on all sides

[granite ember]

apoc are insufferable

death emerges, judge calls for court

and its gg

[maiden dagger]

I feel like you just kinda spend half the time hoping you don't just instantly lose

[deft hedge]

i like math :D

[maiden dagger]

it sucks for town because there are like 3 different act now instant loss conditions that can pop up, and it sucks for apoc because if they start dying they can't really do anything

[silk brook]

If town isn't coordinated

It hurts so bad in apoc modes

Having a passive town when Death and Famine are around the corner is just so annoying

[maiden dagger]

you have to actually be so good sometimes

[silk brook]

And any apoc mode where Bers dies is

Uuughhh

[maiden dagger]

I'm not good enough at the game for it

[granite ember]

apoc arent designed to be factional, im not surprised they’re this way

[silk brook]

It's not even that

[maiden dagger]

I want other people to know who death is

[silk brook]

You can be literally the greatest player of all time

But if everyone else is just playing mid

With a dead bers

And Death coming

It's just ass

Slow, painful wait

And town seems to love not lynching, from my experience, when there is no immediate threat

So if bers is dead and it's 0kpn everyone takes it nice and slow

[granite ember]

no reason not to

you aren’t at urgency of losing majority

[silk brook]

Soul Collector and Baker:

There is lots of urgency

[granite ember]

you have to lynch but you can be more careful

[silk brook]

Town just doesn't feel it

insidious urgency

When Bers isn't killing it's actually worse

You get less people off the board

Far more death candidates

[maiden dagger]

like I said

insufferable for both sides

[silk brook]

exactly

I 100% agree

[maiden dagger]

because you may not know it as town, but the apoc is also literally just sitting there

hoping nobody flips a switch and kills them

[silk brook]

If this was botc it would be where people start to settle down and properly scum read and such

But it's tos and like

what do you have to go off of lol

[granite ember]

the bajillion ti hoping they found something

[silk brook]

Yeah that aint scum reading tho right

I mean what do you go off of in terms of scum reading

[maiden dagger]

so many games where the evils fit right in with the average town activity level

[granite ember]

2 minutes of chat daily times how many days its been

[maiden dagger]

having less time in a day than it takes me to go use the bathroom is very cool

great decision

ESPECIALLY when there's a role that causes you to instantly lose just for lasting that time!!

[quartz axle]

me when berserker is gone and we don't have Baker or Warlock

https://tenor.com/view/wallahi-im-finished-gif-6052476492152637364

[maiden dagger]

the pb just taking its sweet time

[unkempt hawk]

me too

because, once again, they are not an issue with the game's balance

the same way Neutral Special roles aren't

but even if they don't have to be balanced, they shouldn't be punishing evils

[tiny sandal]

Building on that, I wouldn't mind jester having Etheral Diminishing Basic Defence ngl

-# TLDR : TOS1 Witch Scumshield

[sudden oxide]

that one CS who can't leave town because Apoc CS has turned into Baker:

[granite ember]

wouldn’t cs leave because cs roles wouldnt be “alive”

[sudden oxide]

but honestly this looks cool, although this looks hard to code as hell

[silk brook]

It probably is to be fair, we already have lots of foundation for role changing though

[sudden oxide]

perhaps, I don't rly know

[silk brook]

It's just the many specific rules which is the issue

[quartz axle]

Here's the thing.

There are no Cursed Souls inside of the CS faction
There are no living Cursed Souls outside of the CS faction
You're alive

So yeah you just win if Apoc CS changes roles to Baker.