Jester Change

[silk brook]

Let's make Jester more cool

When a Jester is lynched, they win, and learn the roles of all Guilty voters. They then choose a Guilty Voter to Haunt (...or Bless!)

Anyone townie who is chosen by the Jester dies, as usual.
Anyone who is evil, however, gets to choose a new role to be rather than dying.

There are restrictions, ofc:

• If you choose an in-play unique role, your ability fails

• Coven can only choose other Coven roles

• Apoc can only choose other Acolytes

• Pandora can choose Coven or Apoc roles

• NP can only become other NP roles

• NKs can become other NKs but remain their original alignment

• Non town-aligned town roles can become any other townies

• NE and Special roles are kind of edge cases. Honestly they could just get Invincible Defense or smth.

also [reserved] lol

just in case

[quartz axle]

Suggestion: Neutral Special aligned individuals have no effect and cannot be blessed by the Jester.

Suggestion 2: Neutral Evil roles cannot be blessed by a Jester (Imagine becoming Inq d5 and just winning because of the RNG giving you three dead people)

Just nothing happens if you click them

[violet python]

i think for recruits, vamps, and CS, it should be dependent on role

[silk brook]

true

[violet python]

so a CS aligned coven can only choose another coven role, for example

[silk brook]

I think unique interactions is fun but it just means more to code

[quartz axle]

I think NS should just have no effect, so that it's easier to code

yea

[violet python]

could literally just be role specific unless specified (Pandora)

[quartz axle]

Pandora is different since it's a whole modifier / faction

[silk brook]

I mean we can suggest funny specific changes for special roles

Cursed Souls it could auto haunt the cursed soul role

[quartz axle]

That would be too broken.

[silk brook]

Assuming they swapped alr

[violet python]

make it kill whoever has their CS role

🔥

[silk brook]

Well they got a Jester lynched

[silk brook]

That's what I meant yeah

[quartz axle]

If the person who has the CS role is Town CS, then it's technically just a Haunt

that's fine

[violet python]

for Vamp aligned players, ig it would be limited to whatever faction your role belongs to

[quartz axle]

But it would be a little toxic if the Town CS innoed

[silk brook]

Meh

Nevermind

Specific interactions is too much

They can just get invincible defense LOL

[violet python]

hence why I just had the idea to allow them to change their role depending on what faction the role they have belongs to (eg Vampire Sheriff can only choose Non-TPOW town roles)

[silk brook]

Realistically

[quartz axle]

I still think NE should get defense instead of switching your role to Inq and instantly winning (if the RNG gives you dead people)

[silk brook]

That’s just more for tuba to code

[quartz axle]

^

[silk brook]

Okay fair

[violet python]

could just make it so Jester gives NEs the perma basic defense

:P

[silk brook]

[violet python]

wait actually, the special interaction could just be giving perma basic defense

[quartz axle]

Yeah, maybe instead of invincible, NS / NE get +1 permanent defense value

[violet python]

yeah

and on evil town :P

me when im vigi and have defense

[quartz axle]

That would be easier to code too

Rec, Ego, TT, misc non town aligned town shall receive +1 permanent defense value!
NS and NE receive +1 permanent defense value. (NE go to powerful and after d3 it goes to basic)

[deft hedge]

maybe, given the vamp rework, vamp aligned townies when blessed can choose a new town role?

[quartz axle]

That would require doing a lot more checks and I'd prefer to keep it shrimple

Easier to code for the tube

[silk brook]

Tbf tho

Maybe just all evil town roles can choose a new townie to become

If they pick in play Tpow it fails so

I think it’s fine right

To allow tpow

[quartz axle]

It depends on if you think it's not too hard to code

It's all conjecture

[deft hedge]

i feel like it'd be best to limit it to your current subalignment

[quartz axle]

No

[deft hedge]

so a TT coro can't become a TT vigi, you have to become something like invest or spy

[silk brook]

It’d be harder to add clause that they can’t become tpow

[quartz axle]

Yea

Well then

go crazy

[silk brook]

That wouldn’t do anything

[quartz axle]

TT Coro would literally gain nothing from becoming TT Invest

He would rather get basic def

lol

[silk brook]

It would like out you as TT at best

[deft hedge]

i'm not saying having a TT TI is a good thing

in most instances

[silk brook]

It’s a Vigi issue either way right

[deft hedge]

oh definitely

[quartz axle]

Vigi will be nerfed by tube one day

[deft hedge]

some day soon

[silk brook]

It’s on the radar

But

[quartz axle]

Yes

[silk brook]

Doesn’t guarantee anything ofc

[quartz axle]

so no point restricting I think

Either pick any townie or +1 def

[silk brook]

Myea

Defense doesn’t help much either as TT tbf but

Yanno

[quartz axle]

It would help Rec and Ego

[silk brook]

True

[quartz axle]

but switching town roles would be better for all categories

[fresh ridge]

funnier Jackal interaction
just let them become a Jackal-aligned NK (listen you're using a goddamn Jester just own it)

[silk brook]

Nobody runs TT with NE possible anyway

[quartz axle]

yea

[silk brook]

Oh my gosh lol

Should we allow it

[quartz axle]

No

[silk brook]

D:

Dies on the spot

[fresh ridge]

ur no fun

[quartz axle]

Genuinely that might break things.

[fresh ridge]

break what things

[silk brook]

I don’t think it would right

[quartz axle]

I don't know, but something related to how Jackal knows recs.

Would it disappear?

[fresh ridge]

...what

no

[silk brook]

I mean tbf

It’s tos

Everything is jank

[quartz axle]

BMG and buggy are peanut butter and jelly

I'd rather just have a blanket "NS and NE get +1 def"

[silk brook]

I just put invincible

[fresh ridge]

listen
the swappable Jackal bug from back when was far less broken than you might think

[silk brook]

I don’t think

Help

[fresh ridge]

you dont not do things because "i think itll break"

[quartz axle]

Explain why Inq doesn't have a required town target then?

[fresh ridge]

because this was tested initially and did break iirc soooo

[quartz axle]

Yes, because it broke.

[fresh ridge]

still a dumb analogy

you dont not do things preemptively because you think itll break

that is silly

they did it, found it broke, then didnt do it

[quartz axle]

It is also silly to give Jackal extra kill power when recs are not dead.

[fresh ridge]

(you also dont even know how it'd break)

[quartz axle]

in JR

[fresh ridge]

JR is already an 8v7

its already not balanced 😭

and iirc it heavily favors the main scumteam

[silk brook]

I forgot the stats

[fresh ridge]

i remember it being scumsided

[silk brook]

apparently it barely favours evil by a tiny margin

[gilded elbow]

sample size moment

[silk brook]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[fresh ridge]

...it favors jackal the most?
I find this so odd

i know sample size is small but lmao

[silk brook]

It’s not that small

[fresh ridge]

(honestly the fact town has anywhere near 50% in an 8v7 is also something but whatever)

[gilded elbow]

Also this feels like an NS kind of Jester

[silk brook]

NE is kind of already NS lite*

[gilded elbow]

fair enough

[fresh ridge]

especially uh

Jester

lamo

[silk brook]

Modded uses NP instead for actual lists so

[gilded elbow]

yeah

[silk brook]

I don’t think it’s an issue

[gilded elbow]

The first thought that popped in my head is "So now town gets screwed over even harder for doing the thing they can't afford to not do"

[silk brook]

Not really

Giving coven a one time morph is honestly probably better than losing maj a day early

[fresh ridge]

the actual numbers are weird because the jester death is a scum vote out

and generally the morph doesn't make up for the lost vote

unless like

it creates a conjurer that yeets a rock at a tpow or something

[quartz axle]

Evil dies, you get a reroll or a buff.

It's still net worse than holding the Jester hostage until later

[gilded elbow]

but this doesn't replace haunting a townie, really

if a townie gets targeted they die same as usual

the difference is that you can't luck out and have an evil die to haunt

[silk brook]

Okay but that doesn’t make the morph broken right

That was my point

[quartz axle]

The only difference is that Evils don't get randomly trolled by pushing a mislynch

[gilded elbow]

i suppose so

[silk brook]

I don’t think town is getting screwed over any harder

I’m an advocate for keeping Jester’s effect not catastrophic for town

[violet python]

I have a potential solution to Town haunting: Make any evil visit to them astral and all attacks against them unstoppable.

[gilded elbow]

i mean

it doesn't really fix jester no matter what

[fresh ridge]

not any harder
uh
its still a Jester I still hate Jester conceptually but it removes one swing direction

[quartz axle]

Town will hang the Jester for free.

That is the issue with that

"TPOW inno rest guilty"

[violet python]

then uh, super rb them for a few nights idk

[gilded elbow]

they do that anyways, love

they'd do that with this rework and with current/vanilla jester

it's not an issue you can really solve

without burning Jester to the ground

[quartz axle]

Better not make the problem worse.

If Town doesn't get punished at all, you will get "Alright jester it's d2, VFR and Jester come out let'smake it quick"

[silk brook]

To this day I’ve never wrapped my head around the argument why jester is bad

People have explained it to me but it makes no sense to me

[gilded elbow]

i'm not gonna really get into it here

[silk brook]

Yeah it’s fine

[gilded elbow]

if you're looking for a solution to jester you aren't gonna find it with a rework like this, but it is nice

[silk brook]

I honestly probably would be still confused based on past experience

[fresh ridge]

I have seen an explanation that is far better articulated than what I can do
but id have to find it

and im pretty sure id have to painfully navigate an archive of a dead site for it

[gilded elbow]

i didn't want to derail this post with the "jester fundamentally bad" argument

the point of this is to not troll evils

and it does succeed at that without ruining Town overly much

[quartz axle]

Because it punished evils for pushing mislynches, that's really most of the issue for me.

Same reason why base game executioner was so fucking horrible it had to be taken out back for a year or however long

[gilded elbow]

Stop

we're not doing this

[fresh ridge]

that's not where this was going actually but im not gonna delve into it

the argument is why Jester as a core concept is bad

[quartz axle]

Problem: I already did. You guys talked already, so I wanted to say something.

And it's what this post fixes: My problem.

[quartz axle]

Absolutely!

[silk brook]

😋

[gilded elbow]

If you like I could DM you about the Jester concept thing?

[silk brook]

I think for right now it’s okay

It’s 2am for me and I’m delaying falling asleep honestly LOL

[gilded elbow]

Fair enough

[quartz axle]

What the? You need to get some sleep

[silk brook]

I do yes but

Uh

Wheeee I’m so rebellious not sleeping rn wahoooo wowwww

[quartz axle]

Well, make sure you're taking care of yourself. I don't want you to have a serious headache tomorrow.

[silk brook]

Thank you very much for your concern

I will be sure to sleep soundly

[quartz axle]

Reassuring to hear. My whole family just do not go to bed besides me lol

[fresh ridge]

hmmm
tempted to see if the mafiascum page for Jester has a condensed reason for why its conceptually off

nope

i mean except this explanation which
well its condensed

"partly because even in the best case it punishes Town for eliminating someone who is not of their alignment. "

[quartz axle]

Understandable.

Still, removing Jester will never happen, but this is awesome.

I'm very happy with this

[proud swift]

NS - Not targettable
NE - Basic defense until attacked

[cinder wadi]

change the "Anyone townie" to "Any townie" i think

[unkempt hawk]

Anyone townie

[unkempt hawk]

Jester doesn't really need to be removed here anyways

we already have Neutral Pariahs so we are basically settled

Neutral Evils aren't balanced but they're also not in the way of anything

[eternal cargo]

can recruited town be blessed because if so that would be kind of craze

like craze crazy

[unkempt hawk]

imagine Jester screwing over recruits lololol!! (that can literally already happen)

[quartz axle]

Recruits count as "non town aligned town"

[quartz axle]

Jester haunting evils is almost as toxic as torment was, so honestly it should have been removed until that changed in my opinion.

[unkempt hawk]

well, when you put it that way, that's fair

[quartz axle]

I think the reason why it wasn't was because it was like this in TOS1. Either way, the solution is here.

[silk brook]

Tbf torment was extra horrible because you could lynch an evil then kill another evil LUL

[silk brook]

They can be!

[eternal cargo]

me when I am stacked Town and my opponent is Ritualist + Pandora turned Doomsayer

[quartz axle]

Current Haunt- up to 2 dead evils for free ( if evils inno a sus person they get hung next)

Torment- up to 3 dead evils for a cheap price

So I think they're more similar than not, just that old exec literally ruined the game whereas jester haunting evils was just a major headache.

[quartz axle]

Pandorans can only select coven or Apocalypse roles.

[eternal cargo]

oh i misread soz

i mean from the look of stuff BToS2 NEs is designed around being Mini-NPs

[quartz axle]

The only way to balance NEs: "hurt everyone but hurt town way more" , or "hurt town in a sufficient way and help evils"

If you treat everyone equally, town will let you walk.

[unkempt hawk]

imo NEs just wont be balanced if you let them hurt evils

[eternal cargo]

Doomsayer can hurt evils and is not that bad

[unkempt hawk]

- not someone who just had all 3 of their coven doomed

[quartz axle]

The point of Jester is to try and trick town into hanging you. You aren't tricking coven, they want to help you.

[unkempt hawk]

that is true

Coven should want to help a NE like Jester if they want to help Exe

[eternal cargo]

i always push jester as coven if i found them using PM or Witch and then whisper to them stuff like "hey get {town}" for us

[unkempt hawk]

otherwise...do they really belong in the same bucket?

[eternal cargo]

before they dies

[quartz axle]

Exactly but then these clowns stab us in the back brother.

We still are forced to try anyway. You need any mislynch you can get.

[unkempt hawk]

it's pretty bad

if you are Doomsayer town just does not care about you being Doomsayer

[quartz axle]

Proceeds to guess random coven 3 times

[unkempt hawk]

they will only hang you if they think you are lying

and yeah that, it's way easier to get coven

and other evils

[eternal cargo]

Who Win
4 Conjurer
Vs
6 Coroners and 5 NKs with colored vigis playstyle

[unkempt hawk]

sometimes townies will out themselves so Doomsayer can get 2 Coven for free

which is just really sad on Coven's part

[quartz axle]

Thus is why global kill power needs to be tuned down, Town actually needs the time to be able to say "no let's actually hang the doomsayer" and they need a REASON to hang the doomsayer (ie, stop letting doom wipe 3 coven from server)

Same thing with jest here, town will definitely think twice before giving evil team a reroll.

[red mango]

I think evils incentivizing hanging Jester buffs it quite a bit

Maybe have it so Jester doesn't buff evils, but instead super-roleblocks them (IF the action is considered non-harmful. Actions like Dreamweaving will be rbed but attacks won't)

[silk brook]

That's fine if evils are encouraged to push it

That opens up opportunities for town to read evils

[red mango]

fair

[young lantern]

I still dont like Haunt being a "fuck you" button

But this is better than current Jest I suppose

Honestly, why cant jest just be "no trial for u" the next day like Exe

[fresh ridge]

Speaking from experience it’s absolutely awful to play with as anyone who isn’t the jester

[young lantern]

Even as the Jest

Theres no satisfaction really

Its just one kill

And unless someone was being brazenly rude or disrespectful

Haunting someone just feels unnecessary

[red mango]

I mean, as Jester I'd just go "I'm Jester"

[fresh ridge]

I mean yeah i think haunt isnt fun either
I don’t like affecting the game after i win as neutral lol

[young lantern]

Me neither

[fresh ridge]

But uh
Playing with no trial jester (tol fool) was just

[young lantern]

Back to this

[fresh ridge]

Excruciating

[young lantern]

Why not

[young lantern]

What did Fool do when it was hanged again

[fresh ridge]

No trials next day, and everyone who voted guilty gets audited

[granite ember]

didnt fool remove 1 charge

[fresh ridge]

Yes

[granite ember]

instead of complete audit

[fresh ridge]

So btos1 audit

Also for an annoyingly long period of time fool would do 2 days of no trials if it got voted out before day 4 but thats gone now

[maiden dagger]

an exe winning already feels absolutely awful because of this

it's basically a loss condition

[tiny sandal]

aight, but give him the ability to kill itself at night

[maiden dagger]

that being on jest would just be unplayable

[young lantern]

Haunt can be a loss condition too

Do you have a better solution

[young lantern]

I am once again reminded of why I never liked ToL

[alpine peak]

It's OK but imagine your chances of winning increasing a ton because Jester let you change your role, a factor that doesn't have any regulation. Not that bad but it doesnt feel like you won as your role anymore. Still feels like more Chaotically game changing rather than directly harming town but I'm not opposed. There's just better ideas for this.

[maiden dagger]

haunt is just an independent kill

losing all trials the next day is just not comparable to that

[tired grove]

pretty cool but fucking jestercon

[fresh ridge]

In terms of actual numbers, no trials the next day equates roughly the same as a mislynch

If my math is right, which im pretty sure it is

[young lantern]

Losing all trials gives all evils an extra kill

In balanced rolelists

That's still a net +1 kill

[fresh ridge]

i think in terms of numbers it's similar to jester haunt on a townie, but susceptible to a save
my main complaint is that it's just not fun lol

[maiden dagger]

it can be seen on current exe

[rare ibex]

what the teams

[maiden dagger]

even though it's the town's fault most of the time, losing because the exe's target got lynched is just incredibly oppressive

[fresh ridge]

i think executioner balances out as worse than a mislynch barring saves

[maiden dagger]

you literally just get a day to do nothing

[silk brook]

I think that would be a bit much as a jester punishment

[maiden dagger]

it absolutely would

[fresh ridge]

knowing it fucking sucks to play with, thanks fool for teaching us a valuable lesson, i would recommend not doing it

(listen tol did many things right but it also did many things wrong. Still loved the game to bits)

[maiden dagger]

literally the easiest role to mislynch in the entire game and town just dies for it

like how can a jester even be safely avoided

[young lantern]

I agree that Jest is shit role design

The solution to work around Jest is

"kill them via not hanging"

Which is awful

[maiden dagger]

it's not like the town is blessed with a jailor every game

[young lantern]

Because town is given a free way to eliminate jesters without punishment

But that requires certain roles to spawn

Which is just stupid

[fervent mauve]

So this solves the issues of evils not being punished for mislynching

[maiden dagger]

literally 1 single town role can reliably take down a jester without triggering its win condition

[rare ibex]

two*

[fervent mauve]

What if jester had a time limit?

[young lantern]

Ive proposed this concept before

[fervent mauve]

Like, it has to get lynched by day 4, and if it doesn't, it dies like doomsayer does when there's less than 3 ppl left

[young lantern]

But what if Jester worked like Goblin

[fresh ridge]

those generally work better in more controlled environments

[young lantern]

They have to say a certain keyword on the stand to get their win if hanged

That way

Town knows whoever says that keyword is evil

But they also know the risk of jest

[gilded elbow]

What the

That sounds esoteric as hell

[fervent mauve]

So basically an "I'm jester" keyword

[fresh ridge]

ehhhhhhh
I don't think that works as well without the flagbearer

[gilded elbow]

And all of it sidesteps the point

[fervent mauve]

What would that solve

[fresh ridge]

botc is
esoteric

it works very well there

[young lantern]

https://wiki.bloodontheclocktower.com/Goblin

[granite ember]

I don't think goblin would work in tos

ngl

[young lantern]

Yeah i didnt either

It was only a concept for a reason

[maiden dagger]

what's the second? I know it isn't vigi because of the vest and dep can't hit a jester due to it's detection immunity

[young lantern]

I never posted it as an actual rework

[gilded elbow]

Every time someone suggests bringing in something from BOTC it’s always cursed

[silk brook]

Goblin works because it’s a minion

Imo

You don’t have to kill it in order to win

[granite ember]

and theres no jailors or vigilantes

[fresh ridge]

yeah because botc is just generally cursed to someone who's only seen ToS

[granite ember]

iirc

[fresh ridge]

trust me it makes sense

[gilded elbow]

But yeah if you’re concerned with fixing Jester’s actual problems
You kind of can’t

[silk brook]

Oh yeah BOTC makes no sense until you play it

[gilded elbow]

Not without turning ToS into a forum mafia game anyways

[fresh ridge]

I beg to differ

[young lantern]

Show this to someone who's never played botc

[fresh ridge]

Jester still sucks in forum mafia

[fervent mauve]

It needs a way for every townie to be able to reliably deal with it

[gilded elbow]

Honestly fair enough

[fervent mauve]

That's why I like the timer idea

Although

[granite ember]

the first time i was introduced to this role I was very confused

[fervent mauve]

It still has a lot of issues

Like 4 days being too short in some lists while too long in others

Being able to tell that someone isn't jester after day 4

[gilded elbow]

I mean people aren’t ready for the “Jester just doesn’t work and shouldn’t be in the game at all” conversation because they enjoy the free pass to fuck around as Jester

[young lantern]

Jester is the ultimate casual role

[fresh ridge]

i dont think thats necessarily true here for the most part (see: there just isnt a jester on any "balanced" rolelist besides JR which isnt balanced)

but also

[fresh ridge]

yes

😭

[granite ember]

another issue around BMG going inbetween comp and casual balancing

[young lantern]

BMG has never balanced around comp

They try to disguise their casual game as a competitively viable one

But they never balanced around it at all

[granite ember]

the fact ranked exists means they somewhat cared

[gilded elbow]

Jester doesn’t even do the thing it’s supposedly trying to do because telling the difference between a Jester and an evil who’s playing bad is blind luck

[fervent mauve]

Not really

[young lantern]

Note how I said they tried to disguise it

[silk brook]

Ranked has been around since tos 1

[fresh ridge]

which is odd, because ranked is a silly concept for a rolemadness game

[young lantern]

Doesnt change the argument

[fervent mauve]

I tried ranked in tos1 a few times and it was a glorified screaming match

[granite ember]

every ranked game ive played was on a chance of which roles spawned lmao

[silk brook]

Yeah I was arguing with you

On your side

[gilded elbow]

I played Ranked in both games to grind to gold and then stopped
I just didn’t enjoy it

[silk brook]

Ranked is a relic from the past

It existing doesn’t mean much

[fresh ridge]

yeah that
you'd need a human picking out what's in play to make a ranked viable rolemadness and uh
lmao

[gilded elbow]

But there are people who love Ranked

[fervent mauve]

Certainly doesn't exist anymore lol

[gilded elbow]

So the demand for it is still there

[silk brook]

Of course I’m not saying like it should go

I was just saying as a counter argument to “ranked existing means BMG cares about competitive*”

[gilded elbow]

BMG cares about Mayor because it exists ;D

[maiden dagger]

both versions of that statement could be argued to be true

ranked is based a lot on luck and is still very casual because of the list

[granite ember]

the most casual non casual mode ever

[maiden dagger]

9v6 with at least 4 of that 6 being able to produce extra kills

stuff's bound to get wacky

[gilded elbow]

That's just a numbers game

People want a full team of Coven, NE, and NA/NK

tos2 needed a higher playercount but it's too late now unfortunately

[silk brook]

I mean, we'll see

[gilded elbow]

raising the playercount in vanilla is expensive.

[fresh ridge]

if you want 6 non-town then uh
with tos balance uhhh

[maiden dagger]

there's a lot of stuff that they felt was necessary to carry over from tos1 for some reason

[silk brook]

I think there are ways the game can make a comeback, if the game doesn't literally keel over and die first that is

[young lantern]

It really dragged down the game

[fresh ridge]

technically balanced 6 scum is 24 players but lmao no

[young lantern]

It'll require a lot
And I mean a lot
of changes

It all depends on how much DB cares

[silk brook]

200%

[fresh ridge]

(note 6 groupscum. Neutrals are weird)

[silk brook]

I meant 100% but tbf yes the game does require that many changes

[gilded elbow]

There's a bunch of roles that like
If I was making ToS2 from the ground up I would not imagine including
like Mayor and Poisoner have no reason to exist when Prosecutor and Witch do their job better in every way

[fresh ridge]

I think 19-20p is optimal for 6 non-town

[maiden dagger]

it could've been so much better if they just decided to make a new game instead of basically just tos1.5

[young lantern]

I've discussed this in detail before

[maiden dagger]

honestly

[gilded elbow]

oops

[young lantern]

But Town of Salem struggles because it doesnt have an identity

Roles are designed in a vacuum

With no consideration for how they are compared to other roles

[fresh ridge]

and by designed we mean yoinked from random mafia sites or games

[young lantern]

Or how they impact the ecosystem of the game as a whole

[young lantern]

Yep

Also

[gilded elbow]

The BMG originals aren't that much better

[young lantern]

The issue with ToS2 was that it really doesn't deserve the title of sequel

It has improved art

[fresh ridge]

ive expressed this concern when trying to design in the tos design space

[young lantern]

But the roles are just ported over varients of ToS1 roles

[fresh ridge]

the game is too afraid to do anything out there

[young lantern]

Honestly

This is what cripples it

[gilded elbow]

Actually

[fresh ridge]

apoc is the closest we have to game-changers

[young lantern]

ToS devs are afraid of change

Something like live-targeting Sense, for instance, wouldn't fly in the base game methinks

[gilded elbow]

can we chat in your testing server? This is getting off topic

[young lantern]

I mean its not like theres a rule that says you have to stay on topic within threads

[gilded elbow]

i'm not pushing my luck, I've hit too many Whammies this week as is

[tired grove]

there kinda is but its not harshly enforced

[silk brook]

I don't moderate people staying on topic here

It's fine

[tired grove]

nuggy wont explode your nuts if you go off topic

[silk brook]

If the OP requests people stay on topic then I would but

It's fine otherwise

[fresh ridge]

@:CurtisL:

[gilded elbow]

you are the op, nuggy

[fresh ridge]

oh come on

[tired grove]

exactly

[tired grove]

also its monday tf did you do

[maiden dagger]

one of the most disappointing things about tos2 was looking at the role list and seeing that so many problematic tos1 roles still existed and were still the exact same

[silk brook]

It would be a bit hypocritical if I got mad over people discussing in my threads tbf lmfaoooo

[tired grove]

and what did i even miss during my botc homebrew craze

[silk brook]

I am very bad at staying on topic

[silk brook]

[maiden dagger]

ambusher stuck out to me especially

of course being jinx now

like it was so notoriously bad and they didn't change anything to make it better

[young lantern]

Ambusher and Crus being ported over was proof that the devs really did not know what they were doing

[maiden dagger]

it still doesn't even fit in with the coven

[young lantern]

Let me find something actually

One sec

[granite ember]

jinx is 1:1 of ambusher except of necronomicon jinxing

[silk brook]

They made some smart decisions, like keeping the Necronomicon and removing Investigator n such

But uhm

[fresh ridge]

im actually curious how ambusher ended up in mafia and not tos1 coven

[young lantern]

- What is your vision on the end result of this game? What do you want it to ultimately look like?
- Yeah, that's a good one. So when like all the years I worked on Town of Salem one, I kind of had this goal of like, if I just balance the roles enough times, if I am just interacting with community, taking feedback, and like I can eventually get these roles to a place where everything is perfectly balanced and it's like this perfect game. But I've realized over the years that that's really like, one, it's probably impossible because balance can be so subjective. And, you know, there's almost no game that's like perfectly balanced when you have 50 roles interacting with each other. And also, like even if you could create perfect balance, it's probably kind of boring actually. So the new strategy now is accept that it's okay for things to not be perfectly balanced, but change everything up with each rank season. So, you know, there'll be a season where, you know, the OP roles get their time in the sun, and there's some roles that are not so great, but then, you know, the season ends, the OP ones get a nerf, the ones that weren't great, get a buff, the ones that just weren't working at all, get a rework. And then, you know, as long as they aren't atrociously like overpowered or underpowered, then, you know, that's the new rank season. And it will shake everything up and give people a reason to like, if they fell off, and it was getting a little stale, now there's like a new reason to come back. And I think that's like the long term plan for us is just like, each rank season is like a really big patch that shakes up the meta, changes everything up, gives you a reason to come back and play again, you know, check out the new season, get some of those rank rewards, and just kind of like rotating that, you know, every three, four months, instead of kind of having this plan of like a perfect list of roles that then never change again till the end of time. 

[silk brook]

I think it was a one step forwards two steps back kinda deal

[maiden dagger]

yeah the changes they actually DID make were very well warranted

[tired grove]

a buff to mafia?

[young lantern]

This was from an interview with a ToS dev

[maiden dagger]

except maybe like

[fresh ridge]

[maiden dagger]

the exe change

but only because they made it actually toxic

[young lantern]

It was ported from a bad forum idea

[tired grove]

wall

[young lantern]

What did you expect

[fresh ridge]

wasn't that hypnotist

[young lantern]

It was both

Both were ported from that same forum

[tired grove]

...

[silk brook]

Pirate was a forum idea too iirc

[tired grove]

and tmk wasnt ported?

[silk brook]

They couldn't be bothered probably lmfao

[tired grove]

idk if i should be disappointed they added it or relieved it wasnt a bmg original

[maiden dagger]

tmk would've apparently been a really big burden to implement

[gilded elbow]

from this interview it seemed like BMG was focusing more on cool interactions and plays than they were on the overall health of the game

[young lantern]

That's exactly what it is

[tired grove]

me when button mash and everyone dies

[young lantern]

They basically said

[tired grove]

send that sticker mystic

[gilded elbow]

What sticker

[young lantern]

"Fuck it, we're just going to make the maximum number of funny shits happen"

[gilded elbow]

hold on

[silk brook]

I think they saw game health as "cool funny interactions"

[fresh ridge]

see the problem is they didnt even make cool interactions

[silk brook]

there we go

[young lantern]

"and each role will get a turn"

[gilded elbow]

except Admirer.

[tired grove]

dreamweaver.

admirer.

[young lantern]

Admirer already had its turn

Remember alpha admirer

[gilded elbow]

right.

My bad.

[tired grove]

oh that

[granite ember]

[tired grove]

socialite certainly had a turn

[fresh ridge]

I 'member

[tired grove]

and whens jailor gonna stop having its turn

[young lantern]

It had two

[granite ember]

marshal and pros as well

[tired grove]

not that the what if we killed everyone instead one

[gilded elbow]

oh yes

one moment

[tired grove]

marshals turn is now

[tired grove]

add that to this server fr

[maiden dagger]

"the OP roles get their time in the sun"

[granite ember]

add this here it’d be funny

[gilded elbow]

but then, you know, the season ends, the OP ones get a nerf, the ones that weren't great, get a buff, the ones that just weren't working at all, get a rework.

[tired grove]

'mooom, jailors hogging the sun'

[gilded elbow]

Jailor is like

[granite ember]

for the last 10 years

[maiden dagger]

I just thought that was funny

[fresh ridge]

things that definitely happened

[gilded elbow]

Jailor is one of those roles I should rail against but I do not have the mental energy to give a fuck about it because there are other things that bother me way more

[young lantern]

"brother, may i have some viability"

[tired grove]

at least the first pig was gonna get slaughtered

jailors just getting all the oats

on its oat throne

[granite ember]

and not getting slaughtered

[young lantern]

Jailor hides behind Wildling whenever its time for slaughtering

[tired grove]

tos formula is so basic and so good yet its so fucked rn

[gilded elbow]

the thing is they don't get slaughtered

[tired grove]

like you could probably make actual peak

even rivalling botc

[gilded elbow]

if some roles got slaughtered we'd be in a better spot right about now

[young lantern]

Opinions on the CTS

[maiden dagger]

jailor is definitively the most powerful town role in the game by a really long stretch, but it doesn't really have much that stands out as overly problematic

[fresh ridge]

i
have to disagree actually

[young lantern]

for casual players it might be peak sdg

[tired grove]

massive improvement(tho the bar was low). merely some opinion differences

[maiden dagger]

it's just 4 S tier town abilities stapled together

[silk brook]

CTS everything looks really good the only issue is that for a game that's supposed to be so fast, it's really difficult to make discord versions work

[young lantern]

It's not flashy, but its most definitely too powerful

[tired grove]

its your standard mafia formula literally nothing could go wrong

[young lantern]

Yeah hence why the bot is in development

[silk brook]

I do not fancy the idea of tos multiday

[tired grove]

and yet it all did

[tired grove]

^

[young lantern]

I dont like tos multiday either

[fresh ridge]

the way rolelists, aka setups, are designed

[young lantern]

Its just a

[fresh ridge]

promote massclaim

[young lantern]

dramatic pause

[silk brook]

necessary evil

[young lantern]

@young lantern solution

[silk brook]

LUL

[fresh ridge]

and playing by mech PoE over socially deducing

[silk brook]

Oh my god

[tired grove]

YES

[gilded elbow]

womp waaaaaah.

[silk brook]

That is such a tuba thing to do omfl

that is such a bad pun

[young lantern]

I need to get myself an Invincible title screen

[tired grove]

i mean massclaim does exist in botc

[young lantern]

For times like these

[fresh ridge]

you dont typically massclaim until near the end of the game

[tired grove]

its just that protection is more scarce

which is a good thing

[young lantern]

Poisoner has joined the lobby

[granite ember]

would be better if 3 townies dont randomly combust in one night

[tired grove]

i hate the abundance of protectors

[silk brook]

Massclaim is a bad idea in botc usually

Evils have many tools to thrive off of that

[tired grove]

i mean its worked for me so far

[fresh ridge]

in tos the actively viable strat is massclaim day 2

[young lantern]

And the best part is, its all organic

No ham-fisted Ritualist role

Massclaiming is just a bad strategy because of the way the game is designed

[tired grove]

thank you storyteller for existing

[fresh ridge]

if you arent massclaiming you aren't generating the clears that the rolelist just gives you because counting slots

[tired grove]

you make balancing so much better

[silk brook]

TOS is way too fast to all amble along taking time to be 100% fair

[tired grove]

because evils cant do shit

[silk brook]

ignoring the massive temp rant earlier on suboptimal storytelling ruining games

[tired grove]

outside of rit/doom who can be checked

with saying subalign

[silk brook]

But yeah a good ST can do wonders

[tired grove]

and tis dont even get their shit rocked

[young lantern]

Im more lenient in person and when mistakes are actually made out of genuine human nature for the record

[silk brook]

was responding to this for reference

[young lantern]

I just dont like when people purposefully storytell badly

If people make mistakes

[tired grove]

all my homebrews are practically designed around a good st making shit interesting like time and gambler

[young lantern]

I'll be accommodating

[gilded elbow]

an online game like ToS simply does not work with a ST

[silk brook]

I have made a lot of ST mistakes

MANY st mistakes

It's much harder than it looks

[young lantern]

As long as the intent of the ST isnt malicious

Its fine

[tired grove]

i did try this and can confirm

[fresh ridge]

and okay i think I give tol too much credit a lot of the time but
tol not doing "2x TI, one TP, one TK) etc and just having its 7-9 random BD improved the game experience

[tired grove]

it fucking blows

[young lantern]

You want to put your players first when STing

Not your own entertainment

That's the core of it

[young lantern]

Any ST who does this but makes mistakes isnt a bad ST

[tired grove]

^

[young lantern]

Any ST who does this is

[fresh ridge]

yes this number is variable because bullshit but you get the idea

[silk brook]

Also just like
Most SDGs don't need storytellers

[maiden dagger]

this does seem like a major block to being able to actually host botc games

[silk brook]

It's far from a grand solution to all problems

[young lantern]

True tbh
Im considering switching out a lot of the setup confirmation within the CTS too

For this reason

[tired grove]

it gives flexibility which is good

[silk brook]

It takes a solid amount of games being ST to get a good grip on it

[tired grove]

but it aint a hail mary

[young lantern]

Storytellers only work for the most casual of sdgs

The ones you play with friends and at parties

[tired grove]

i rem my first time trying to st with friends

[young lantern]

Not ones you play online with strangers

[silk brook]

My first ever game as ST, we were all new to the game so I was solo ST, and the first thing I did was add outsiders illegally LOL

[tired grove]

absolute disaster

accidentally gave 2 people the same role

then had to correct it

middle of the night

[silk brook]

And then forget how Sailor worked and said that someone died, then they told me out loud wtf and I go "oh shit they don't die"

Sailor was the only "cannot die" on the script as well LOL

It was BAD

[fresh ridge]

how did you do that there's 1 of each token
the game doesnt let you assign more than 1 😭

[tired grove]

online mate

[silk brook]

Eek !

[tired grove]

accidentally sent wrong message

[fresh ridge]

you still have to go out of your way to hit a special setting

okay that'd do it

[tired grove]

i told 2 people theyre the ravenkeeper

when the other was actually demon

[silk brook]

I mean on the clocktower online thing the old one there's no issues

[young lantern]

Discord hosting

[silk brook]

The paid one idk

[young lantern]

Probably

[tired grove]

which is fucking embarrassing

hopefully my next time sting is gonna be good

[silk brook]

sting

[tired grove]

im doing a teensy this time

[silk brook]

🐝

[tired grove]

bzz bzz

[tired grove]

with a homebrew demon

[silk brook]

Being a new ST without an experienced co-ST is not easy

[tired grove]

which is ultracool

[fresh ridge]

oh god a homebrew demon

[tired grove]

oi gambler is cool af

yes its also a tf name

[fresh ridge]

🤨

[tired grove]

no it wasnt intentional

[young lantern]

oh no

[tired grove]

its part of my pure homebrew script

based off phantom rose

[young lantern]

you do realize Gambler is

[tired grove]

blame makasama

[young lantern]

also just a role that exists right

[tired grove]

yes

i had this convo already

[silk brook]

I will say I'd reccommend running vanilla stuff until you get a good grip on it, going straight into homebrew is a bit iffy

[tired grove]

i cant do a thing

[tired grove]

gamblers pretty beginner friendly id say

[silk brook]

No but also because like

[tired grove]

i got some simple events for it

[silk brook]

So you can get a grip on how events interact

[fresh ridge]

what do you mean events

[tired grove]

hoo boy

hold on

[silk brook]

wait who

Fake?

[fresh ridge]

yes

[silk brook]

fairs

[fresh ridge]

this does not sound like a simple homebrew demon tm

[tired grove]

its as simple as the st decides it

in this case

very

[fresh ridge]

is that oldloonist

[silk brook]

Oh yeah old balloonist

[tired grove]

a what

[fresh ridge]

anyway no this is not a beginner friendly demon 😔

[tired grove]

its beginner friendly because of the events i gave it

[silk brook]

Does the demon know what the events are

[tired grove]

lemme get keep open

[tired grove]

no

[silk brook]

How is that beginner friendly

[tired grove]

defeats the point of gambling

[tired grove]

for the st

[silk brook]

If you don't have a grasp on the game how will you have the wildest clue what your ability is doing

[tired grove]

youll know when it procs

[silk brook]

Anything that requires the ST to make stuff up is immediately not beginner friendly

[young lantern]

I concur

[young lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/skull-issues-gif-13031152103567454559

Okay this demon needs uh

Some tweaking

Dude this is literally an impossible to solve demon

💀

How does town solve around random ass shit happening

And six possibilities

[tired grove]

not 6

its gonna be 3

[young lantern]

That isn't much better

Even one completely unsolvable thing occurring makes a game unsolvable

💀

[young lantern]

this

[silk brook]

I think ToS has left an impression that anything solvable is bad

That's 100% false. The important thing is that there needs to be many different ways it can be solved.

TOS just usually has 1 or 2 ways anything is possible

[tired grove]

yeah and its gonna be obvious something happened

[silk brook]

You were roleblocked? Either a tav or a poisoner.
x is sus? They're evil or it's an Enchanter

[tired grove]

and anyways i got a good cohost to help

[silk brook]

BOTC actually has the same thing but to a much more elaborate degree

[tired grove]

ye i like the vagueness

tho generally i dont sweat the small details

[silk brook]

Vagueness =/= Impossible to solve though

[tired grove]

unless its vortox

[tired grove]

but its not impossible, gambler cant randomly become immortal

or the demon unfindable

[young lantern]

guys

remember back when we were talking about jester

[silk brook]

When I'm playing botc I'm spending a lot of my time building possible worlds. When the demon effect can just be anything, that adds too much chance into the mix to solve

[silk brook]

Oh yeah

BOTC is more fun to talk about

[tired grove]

oh yeah jester exists

[fresh ridge]

ive definitely seen demons in similar concept to your gambler but
they all have some element of publicity lol

[gilded elbow]

it shouldn't

[fresh ridge]

to uh
make up for the fact they can do anything

[silk brook]

I think Obscrul is one right

[fresh ridge]

kinda yeah

[tired grove]

i mean 2 of the events are publid

the last one is silent

[silk brook]

And that has like, the longest guide to run it out of all of the characters in... whatever its called

Homebrewe'rs something

[fresh ridge]

I think one that'd make more sense is a different one that I've seen and kinda like lol

[silk brook]

And also a specific townsfolk who can learn the effects

[young lantern]

Obscrul

[tired grove]

hold on

[young lantern]

is a good example for a non-conformist Demon

[tired grove]

yeah i cant find it

[young lantern]

Me when I forget to scroll up

[fresh ridge]

uhhh i know you're in apoc
for faketier over here he might like Mari Lwyd

[young lantern]

Wtf is that

[tired grove]

mari what

[young lantern]

I'm not caught up on Apoc lore

[silk brook]

It's all good I can't read anyway LOL

[young lantern]

😔

[tired grove]

a welsh person?

[fresh ridge]

uh
Each night*, choose a player: they die. Then, all players learn 2 things & privately vote for which one happens.

[young lantern]

I remember now

[tired grove]

oh that guy

[silk brook]

This is like, the most complicated demon in The Bootlegger's Anthrology asw

[tired grove]

i keep forgetting them

yeah obscrul is a cool boi

[maiden dagger]

I personally can hardly even do flavor text right, and tend to just avoid it

[silk brook]

Your demon has that x3 though
I would not call it beginner friendly

And nothing can find what the effects are either

[young lantern]

Your demon not only has that 3x

But players will never get the chance to know what its done or what its doing

That's what makes it bad

[tired grove]

the fact theres a giant announcement doesnt help find it?

[maiden dagger]

I can't imagine writing a 2 paragraph essay about someone dying that night

[silk brook]

It says nothing about an announcement

[tired grove]

the events specify it

[silk brook]

Are the events predetermined?

[tired grove]

it says public in brackets

[fresh ridge]

well i mean you dont have to do that

[tired grove]

yes

i decide beforehand

gambler give number

i note down

massive announcement when they happen

kinda hard to miss

[young lantern]

@silk brook you should rename this thread Homebrew Discussion

[tired grove]

also what happens

[young lantern]

[silk brook]

fr LMFAO

[tired grove]

example

6 - (Public) Gambler and Minion swap

wait a fuckung second are there more channels in this server

[young lantern]

Wdym more channels

How many do you see right now

[tired grove]

21

[silk brook]

wdym

[tired grove]

idk i scrolled more than normal

i like to randomly scroll the server channel list

[silk brook]

I mean ofc there is hidden channels like for mod stuff and everything

[tired grove]

and i went more than normal

oh theres 2 vcs

vc ans cv

anyways you guys are probs not gonna like time(tbf im still thinking of times events)

[silk brook]

this is one of my demon

[tired grove]

oh lawd conversion

[young lantern]

This is

Really OP

Lmao

[tired grove]

also yeah

[young lantern]

It gets an extra life

Like Zombuul

[young lantern]

But also creates a net of one extra evil on death

[tired grove]

and minion with bluff

[young lantern]

Plus

[silk brook]

That was the reason for removing a minion initially though

[young lantern]

It instawins in F3 or F4

💀

[tired grove]

yeah but having that missing minion have a bluff on death is kinda a buff

like summoner

[silk brook]

Any demon wins if they exe on F4 right?

TUBA GO AWAY

!!!!

ily rlly tubald

[teal pawn]

too bad i cant do 2 Gs

[silk brook]

It's GG

[teal pawn]

[silk brook]

How does it insta win though, I am legit confused on that note

[tired grove]

also yalls aint ready for the second demon i ever homebrewed

[tired grove]

it dies. now its neighbors evil

leaving 1 good player

[silk brook]

Yeah if it attacks itself

[tired grove]

to die to demon

[silk brook]

Like imp

It's not just if they die in general

[tired grove]

again, 1 good player

[silk brook]

Many final 3s have one good player

I can understand the issue of "the final 3 is a 50/50 as to who is demon now" though

[tired grove]

the other 2 dont have perfect bluffs do they

hydra makes that possible

[silk brook]

hmmm

I'm not bothered about the bluffs

[tired grove]

also like midgame conversion

[silk brook]

Many demons give extra bluffs

But

[tired grove]

you know my schtick

[young lantern]

Oh I misread

[silk brook]

I think it is a valid take that you basically get a double summoner conversion off

[young lantern]

Nevermind it’s fine then

I think

[silk brook]

Possiblyt

I do see genuine issues now tho

That you basically get a double summoner going, and also that doing it into F3 is a legit 50/50

But also you have to survive an entire game down a minion

To get to that point

Which is a big deal as things go along

[tired grove]

its complicated really

im still looking at my grah conversion bad lens

[silk brook]

I mean

It's botc

It will be on a script

Where people would be fine with it

[tired grove]

yeah true

[silk brook]

Conversion is fun when done right

It's valid to not like it

[tired grove]

my point is that im not someone you should ask for conversion balance

[silk brook]

Yeah no that's fairs

[tired grove]

anyways wanna cringe really hard

at the second demon i made

[silk brook]

Sure

[tired grove]

lemme get it

[silk brook]

To be honest I can see an interesting idea in there

[red mango]

Are Abstains still valid targets for Jester?

[silk brook]

I was gonna say it was just a nerfed evil team but

[tired grove]

i made a script and the jinxes are longer than the demons

[silk brook]

Also if there's multiple demons that's multiple demons who need to die right?

[tired grove]

theres 13 of them

[tired grove]

yep

[silk brook]

🤯

[tired grove]

also sylphy+destiny+marusok will fucking sweep

sylphy is po on steroids

[silk brook]

To be honest I might make a suggestion here

What if the demons learn each other once only one demon lives

[tired grove]

i mean, do they need that power? multiple demons can wake whenever and theres some really heavy hitters on the actual script

[silk brook]

I was under the impression it was 1kpn

Across the team

[tired grove]

well yes

but multiple demons can wake

[silk brook]

Oh and if multiple wake, they learn each other?

[tired grove]

no

they just kill

[silk brook]

What

[tired grove]

seperately

[silk brook]

So

It's not 1kpn

it's like 1 or more kpn

[tired grove]

ye

again, sylphy+destiny is a hell of a combo

destiny predicts sylphy will get 5 kill chains and awakes tonight sober and healthy, sylphy nukes town no matter how bad destinys consequence was

[astral light]

I think comparing Botc and Tos is a war of false equivalencies as Botc rotates around 1 single objective (The Demon) at all times like a more interesting VIP mode. But Tos just doesn’t work like that so discussing them in equal vacuums seems kinda off (but botc is a far far less swingy game)

[silk brook]

You are correct

For the wrong reasons but yes

Trying to turn tos into botc

Is a terrible, terrible idea

Many ideas and mechanics are not translatable

And also many ideas that are great in botc are awful here

One of the big reasons imo is actually the speed of the games

[tired grove]

slayer deputy

[silk brook]

TOS is FAST. Like, super super super fast

So if you tried to make it into botc, which has hidden roles, no cause of death revealed, and such

[tired grove]

its not even about speed in tos, a slow tos cannot be translated to botc

[silk brook]

It would be horrible and unworkable

TOS also has a horrid foundation to be slow

Because the depth of the game, since it's a fast game, is much more shallow than botc

Which is 100% fine

But as I said earlier, in tos you get situations like:

"I was rbd, it's either a tav or a poisoner"

botc has:

"My information looks wrong. It's possible we are looking into a completely false world, maybe I am poisoned, it's possible that I am also the drunk, or maybe a townie ability is making me act this way - also my info could actually be correct and I am mistaken!"

In botc, which has like 2 hour games that is a brilliant amount of depth

In tos? holy shit you cannot figure that out in half a minute

It doesn't translate at all

And trying to make it work is a bad idea

HOWEVER

BOTC has a lot of incredibly solid design philosophies overall. And we can look at why those design philosophies exist, and translate those over to tos.

[astral light]

Well yeah I just see it get brought up a lot in balance discussions and feel like the conversation is rarely pivoted in a way that is meaningful to a Tos balance discussion because it’s not really comparable at least to the same degree

[silk brook]

A big one is the complete lack of confirmation. No role is impossible to bluff, everything can be fake claimed, and that's been taken into BTOS' design philosophy

And btos is so much more fun than vanilla as a result

[silk brook]

Yeah well this is an example of the convo just going full botc tbf LOL

Nothing about this thread was to do with tos

But I was countering the argument that it's a bad idea to take inspiration from botc.

[astral light]

The big issue is alot of Botcs design philosophy is around how much you can literally do social deduction tos you simply don’t have the time

[silk brook]

Well yes

And that's why we don't want to translate it over to tos

Like I said

[astral light]

I don’t think it’s a bad idea per say but I do think it’s used as a unattainable standard a lot

[silk brook]

That's valid

People do expect the somewhat impossible out of tos

[tired grove]

me when the slayer shoots a recluse and they did

[young lantern]

That’s what I’ve been doing with my reworks lol

[silk brook]

But botc is full of great ideas overall which is why it's brought up so much

[silk brook]

Exactly

[young lantern]

Virgin:

[silk brook]

Virgin can be fake claimed
Just not brilliantly

Also for the record I am iffy on virgin anyway, always have been

But it's not an awful idea

[astral light]

It really does loop into the “a game for everyone is a game for no one” philosophy which leads to some pretty awkward situations

[silk brook]

Unironically probably the worst role in the entire game in terms of claimability is golem 💀

[silk brook]

Who should tos be for? FPS players?

[young lantern]

Golem stinks

Moving on

[silk brook]

That's what it feels like it's trying to be right now

[young lantern]

Children

[tired grove]

ur mom

[young lantern]

:trollface:

[silk brook]

I mean

Tbf a lot of the tos fanbase does seem to be young

[young lantern]

Yeah I know that

Hence the joke

[silk brook]

loooool

[tired grove]

im 17 give me a break

[astral light]

Shush it you

[astral light]

I started playing tos 1 in middle school

I’m in my last year of undergrad

[tired grove]

im about to start on my uni apps

started tos in middle school as well

[astral light]

But moreso what I meant is that if a change is made to appeal to a preconceived baseline it ends up underwhelming

Like current amnesiac

It exists

[astral light]

Good luck

Also it kinda mentally fucked me learning Curtis was younger than me

I did not expect that one

[silk brook]

Yes, but that's not what we are doing.

Top down design philosophy, is important to consider. You need to have ideas in mind.

Unironically, when you really discipline your design, you can actually end up creating something more fun for everyone - while just going for whatever comes to mind more often leads people upset with the results

[silk brook]

Ask Temp what they think of this role

[astral light]

The big issue I see is that design has to account for so much in a Social deduction game like Pros/Marsh being in the game at the same time has so little room for variety and will end up with 1 being bad and the other good or if like in vanilla both are good then when two spawn it’s a nightmare despite the fact that the roles are individually balanced

[young lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/dillom-rage-dog-angry-dog-gif-17954176246139200797

[astral light]

Seems like you love Amne

[astral light]

To further elaborate on this the foundation of role design in tos has very little room to expand in its current iteration because each role needs a certain amount of power for a casual player to want to play them

Botc has essentially negative roles in its outsider system but Tos cannot facilitate something like that despite how much theoretical depth it ads because the game is just too fast

[unkempt hawk]

you don't have to kill Jester in order to win though

[silk brook]

That's why I'm okay with Jester

[unkempt hawk]

the issue is that you still have to deal with it

because they're still a person and still count towards the game

[still flame]

This is the last place I'd expect to be reminded that I'm old now

[red mango]

If there's no vigilante/Jailor, Jester will literally just play with Evils the entire game.

Town is incentivized not to hang it, Jester is incentivized to work with Evils, Evils are incentivized to treat it like an NP

[silk brook]

I think NEs being "NP Lites" is not a bad idea

[red mango]

Difference with Exe is that Town can hang it

[silk brook]

Exe also has a far worse punishment

[red mango]

Jester is just a free evil vote the whole game until Evils get majority

[silk brook]

I mean maybe but

Jester can just die very easily as well

They're still a solo player imo this would not change that

Evils already can be incentivised to lynch a Jester they know of anyway, this would not change that

It just means the Jester can't decide to betray them for no reason as well

Also less swing

A Jester slot is not gonna be anti-everyone