Experimental Coroner Rework

[grave glen]

Mental coroner change check below if you want my reasoning

Coroner (Town Support)

None
None

Abilities

• You can choose whether to Examine, Cure, or Poison your target.

Attributes

• You have a Autopsy meter that collects 1 Autopsy every time a townie dies, up to 3 souls.
• You have 1 Autopsy by default.

Examine (Costs 1 Autopsy )

• Learn if your target was the killer of any currently dead players.
• If you die tonight or tomorrow, your role instead shows as your Examined player's role.

Cure (Costs 2 Autopsies)

• Grants your target a Barrier for two nights

Poison (Costs 3 Autopsies)

• Roleblock your target and poison them. They will die tomorrow unless cured by a Barrier ability.
• Poison can only be used once per game

Reasoning

• Coroner kind of pollutes the TI category imo. The idea of having a lategame TI is fun, but in my opinion TIs need to be able to provide useful information day 1 in order to keep the game going - late game is when Scumreading can be used to find evils.
• TS roles tend to have a theme of becoming stronger late game, so I thought why not put it into TS as a jack of all trades role? (This is experimental for a reason though)

Notes

• The Soul Meter can be reused from Soul Collector, just turned green
• Medusa blocks souls being collected (maybe) and Enchanted targets give souls depending on if they appear as town or not (maybe)

[ Reserved ]

[sacred herald]

I'm not lore balancing but can it be named something other than 'souls'

[grave glen]

Yes 100%

If anything else can be found I'll put it

I just don't know what

"Bodies" seems weird loool

[sacred herald]

Autopsies?

[grave glen]

Hmmm

Okay sure !

[sacred herald]

works better than 'souls'

but YIPEE NEW ts

[dreamy lichen]

why can coroner kill

[grave glen]

Town support

[dreamy lichen]

i get coroner needs a buff but killing people is too much 💀

[sacred herald]

^

[grave glen]

It's a town support role

[sacred herald]

Killing people may be too much

[grave glen]

Mkay

[dreamy lichen]

behold, the TK bucket

[grave glen]

I made it poison since that's delayed

[sacred herald]

ts are meant to be comeback roles

[grave glen]

Yeah that's exactly why I gave it the poison ability

[dreamy lichen]

currently they are the rejects that dont fit anywhere else

[sacred herald]

It's a cool concept though

[grave glen]

I will replace poison if anybody has better ideas

[steep raft]

joat coroner joat coroner

[grave glen]

It's annoying to me when the TI slot is taken up by a role that can't even get info until N2 at the earliest

[gleaming rampart]

Replace poison with Death ability fr

[grave glen]

And I haven't seen any ideas on how to make it actually good as a TI

It's entirely based around a bad concept

[sacred herald]

Make it RB

(Real)

[grave glen]

I mean it does alr

tbf

And tav yeah

[gleaming rampart]

So examine wouldn't check for killers that only killed the night they are checked right ?

[sacred herald]

poison seems too strong though

ill think about it

[grave glen]

It sees if they killed at any point

[grave glen]

What if it was once per game

[fiery berry]

Me when the Coroner gets a bottle of poison

[foggy falcon]

Yay more hybrids

[dreamy lichen]

this is town baker ngl

[grave glen]

I was thinking more pmer but yeah

[gleaming rampart]

so it works exacrtly like invest Murder check if I got it right

[grave glen]

It's a joat

[grave glen]

Like vanilla invest murder yeah

And you learn killer's role

[foggy falcon]

This is fine imo as a hybrid but like it just feels too much esp with poison

[grave glen]

Yeah I think poison is the issue here

Idk what to replace it with

[foggy falcon]

invest ability to check blood

[grave glen]

It has that

[fiery berry]

This is three things I hate from new TS roles into one:

• TS that acts like a TP
• TS that acts like a TK
• TS that roleblocks

[foggy falcon]

oh-

[grave glen]

TS are supposed to cover the bases of other roles

[dreamy lichen]

TS that roleblocks is just tav

anything more trips on tav

[grave glen]

I think they mean

Any new TS roles that roleblock

Because of that exact reason

[fiery berry]

Yeah

[grave glen]

Poison is a roleblock and kill mixed together so I don't think it oversteps tav but

posion has gotten bad reception so I would be for replacing it

[fiery berry]

I don't like the consistent possibility for it to act like TP as well

[grave glen]

The main reason for poison is because if you get to the point where it's 3 souls very fast, you kind of probably need that kill

[grave glen]

If town has very few TP, then it can decide to fulfill that niche.

[gleaming rampart]

I don't mind poison that much, Ret has access to Vigi too

[grave glen]

That's the point of TS after all

Anti swing for town

Retri, Amnesiac, and then this

[fiery berry]

TS for me is an ability that can't fit into the other categories.

It's the "Other" option

[gleaming rampart]

Admirer is best comeback role fr

[grave glen]

Okay so what does this fit into if not TS

[fiery berry]

TP, TK, and TS lol

[grave glen]

It can only go in one categoruy

And for that reason it goes in TS

Why limit how we can design roles just because we want things to be in x or y category?

Besides, I think this fits TS

In terms of playstyle

[fiery berry]

I like my categories personally

They look nice

[grave glen]

Categories exist mainly for role balance in lists

And Coroner is kind of ruining that balance for TI so

[gleaming rampart]

IMO this is fine as a TS, it helps town in various ways

[grave glen]

Shmoove it on out imo

Yeah

[gleaming rampart]

that's what TS does, support town in their own niche way

[grave glen]

I agree !

Also to be fair, most other ideas that could fit ts kind of mess up town of salem, from my experience

[fiery berry]

This kills like a TK, protects like a TP, roleblocks like a TS, and gains info like a TI

In a way it's a weaker pseudo jailor

[grave glen]

Yes it's a Joat

Jailor is a joat as well

Also it doesn't roleblock like a TS really

The roleblock and kill are combined

If you use poison, town is in danger imo

They need that ability

[fiery berry]

If a Potion Master with Necronomicon is town-aligned, would it be a TS?

[grave glen]

Yes

Where else would it fit?

I mean maybe TK if it's killing EVERY NIGHT sure

If it was like tos 1 PMer where it has cooldowns then it would be TS

[gleaming rampart]

It would be an OP TS but that's because evil roles have to be stronger (except dreamweaver)

[grave glen]

Yeah pure pmer in ts would be very very strong ofc since it's an evil role LUL

Me when the townie starts getting exact roles every night

[gleaming rampart]

Still weaker than Seer

[grave glen]

LUL

Cure is a two night protection so
Would it be better if poison was instead a two night roleblock?

Random thought

Oh that would confirm the coroner though

No other role can double rb

But at the same time, this is an expensive ability, and that means you can at least get value out of it if you hit a townie?

[dreamy lichen]

two night roleblocks are kinda bad though

[grave glen]

You think?

[dreamy lichen]

yes

[grave glen]

I can understand that but

This slows the game down as well

And coven / apoc have ways around this

Slower games are better imo, it's too fast right now

[dreamy lichen]

roleblocking the killing role 2 nights in a row for the funny isnt a solution to the problem of games going fast

[grave glen]

Not for the funny,

I suppose it'd be strong against like, shroud

Coven can just pass book

[gleaming rampart]

What if... we make the 3 souls ability audit the target

[grave glen]

Oh my gosh imagine

Loool

Berserker I thought was roleblock immune

[dreamy lichen]

it isnt

[gleaming rampart]

only War is

[grave glen]

Considering how much it suffers against roleblocks that seems silly to me but

Oh well

[dreamy lichen]

by time war emerges the game is already over

[grave glen]

Not always

[gleaming rampart]

in vanilla N2 rb destroys it since it also prevents N3 kill

[grave glen]

Legit today I won a game with war popped as town

[queen tangle]

JOATs don’t belong in TS

[grave glen]

Where do they go?

[queen tangle]

This is a Town Miscellaneous if I’ve ever seen one

[queen tangle]

Make it Town Special

[grave glen]

TS is town anti-swing

[queen tangle]

No

If you add JOATs to TS

[dreamy lichen]

town (potion master)

[queen tangle]

It becomes part of the issue

[gleaming rampart]

Tarnation it make this a tpow

[grave glen]

Holy shit lol

[queen tangle]

Since now the category becomes far more swingy and basically a common town slot

[gleaming rampart]

Coroner Tpow meme has become real

[queen tangle]

Also the idea itself isn’t great, sorry

[grave glen]

It's fitting the theme of lategame power and anti swing imo

[queen tangle]

I don’t like JOATs in this game

[grave glen]

That's fine ofc

[queen tangle]

And the execution isn’t good either :/

[grave glen]

U will be executed !

[gleaming rampart]

No but unironically, if you make this stronger I think you can make a tpow based on this concept

And it justify kill power

[queen tangle]

That’s because this game is rigged against roleblockers

[grave glen]

I think this shouldn't be tpow

[queen tangle]

With how many roles are immune or straight up ignore them

[grave glen]

Lagspikes means bad as in
Strong I'm p sure there

Like "bad for the game"

[gleaming rampart]

Fair enough

[queen tangle]

Not really

The utilities it provides aren’t unique

Nor does it have a unique dynamic

It’s just three abilities combined into one role

Aka TM

Not TS

[grave glen]

TM doesn't exist

And it won't exist

TS is TM

[queen tangle]

If that’s the case

Then might as well rename it

[grave glen]

Town Utility

[queen tangle]

Since support clearly doesn’t indicate what it does anymore

[grave glen]

Support never indicated what it did tbf

[queen tangle]

Utility doesn’t work either

[grave glen]

TP roles are support as I said

[queen tangle]

Because that’s just the same as support

[tropic mantle]

Bruh you just turned a coro to a tp...

[grave glen]

Not rlly

[tropic mantle]

and a tk

[queen tangle]

You can call every town role town utility

They all do something useful

[grave glen]

it's anti swing so it can choose to be tp if it wants

[queen tangle]

(Except admirer)

[queen tangle]

Just rename it Town Miscellaneous and call it a day

[gleaming rampart]

Ret can also be anything I don't see the issue here

[grave glen]

Sure it can be TM

[tropic mantle]

coro is fine as it is ima be honest. it was designed to counter coven, and it should stay that way

[grave glen]

TM TU it doesn't matter really

[queen tangle]

But then you’ll have to move Ret and Tav out of TM into TS

So

[grave glen]

No

[queen tangle]

It’s too much of a hassle

[queen tangle]

They’re two different categories

Lol

I’m not sure what else to say here

They’re not one and the same

It’s like if you moved TP into TS

It wouldn’t make any sense

[grave glen]

Temp I'm ngl you have been going so so so crazy hard on this whole alignment shenangians thing you invented recently

And I think it's subjective

[queen tangle]

I didn’t “invent” it

[grave glen]

You certainly invented the TS definition

[queen tangle]

I specifically have viewed a functional alignment system

And it’s much much better than a TM TS

All I’m doing is promoting good game design

Not arbitrarily limiting it

[grave glen]

I still think your system is subjective though

[tropic mantle]

me when argument... but like fr. coroner is fine as it is. there is no use to rework it

[grave glen]

Therefore I don't think it's right to balance around it

As if it were objective truth

[queen tangle]

https://tenor.com/view/laughing-cat-catlaughing-laughingcat-point-gif-7577620470218150413

Laugh at this user

He thinks Coroner is fine as it is (it exists in the same game as a Cop and Double Parity Cop style TI that can find any evil without delay)

[grave glen]

Coroner can't get any info until at least N2 at the earliest, it does very little to help town and when the TI slot is taken up by such a slow role town begins to have to rely on random lynching earlier

Because there isn't enough time to scum read D1 lynches

[gleaming rampart]

Coroner needs secret killers to be useful

[grave glen]

TI are useful for that

[tropic mantle]

yeah and unlike that TI, the coro can literally counter coven...

[queen tangle]

You can choose to put Oracle in TS if you want and call it “subjective” when people disagree

Doesn’t mean it’s good game design, does it

[grave glen]

All TP can go in TS they are technically supporting town ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[queen tangle]

You’re missing my point

Subjectivity isn’t an excuse for bad game design

[grave glen]

I am aware of your point, it's just that when it comes to this specifically I don't agree

[queen tangle]

That’s my thesis here

[grave glen]

I disagree it is bad game design

The entire idea it is bad game design is subjective

[queen tangle]

Tell me

[grave glen]

This is my point

[queen tangle]

@grave glen what does the TS bucket in a rolelist do

At the moment

[grave glen]

Right now, nothing really

[queen tangle]

Exactly.

And is that a good thing?

[grave glen]

That's why I want to put anti swing roles in there

That is my definition of TS

[queen tangle]

Do you want to leave the TS bucket unusable?

[grave glen]

I want to put anti swing roles in there

[tropic mantle]

Also just saying. Coroner was designed to counter coven for the most part, as its immune to enchant, and illusion. it can also determine who had the book the last night. unlike some other tis. Just saying.

[grave glen]

So it can be used

TI is early game, TS is late game

[crimson field]

This feels like ret but worse

[queen tangle]

This Coroner is
The swingiest non-Town Power role relative to the entire cast

[crimson field]

I feel like most people would just investigate

[grave glen]

valid, it's doing a similar thing to ret

[tropic mantle]

bro.... have you not heard of a town killing or town power?

[grave glen]

It doesn't change my view of TS so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I don't disagree Tpow and TK are also more late game

[gleaming rampart]

It's a consistent ret that doesn't rely on specific roles dying ig

[queen tangle]

I dont disagree with this on principle
But I do disagree with this on execution

TS need to be strong in a specific way

[tropic mantle]

if you look at ts. they are just there to well... support. they dont provide overwhelimgly useful abilities compared to tk and tpow. they usually die before than. and many roles even COUNTER them

[queen tangle]

You cant just have "this role becomes stronger late game" as your only criteria for TS

[queen tangle]

See, this is a flawed argument

[grave glen]

Tav dying mid game is bad, it gets so much value late game
Same for Retri
Amne would be mid game I spose though yes

[mortal jacinth]

@grave glen has leveled up! (39 ➜ 40)

[queen tangle]

You say that TS dont provide overwhelmingly useful abilities

[grave glen]

thanks tatsu

[queen tangle]

But thats not intentional

TS aren't designed to be weak

[grave glen]

TS absolutely do provide good utility in the right circumstances

[queen tangle]

Or fail to standalone

Compare the TS category in tos2 to the TS category in tos1

[grave glen]

But they can be swingy

[tropic mantle]

that is fair. but usually ts are heavily relient on whats actually in the game

[queen tangle]

TS in tos1 were some of the strongest roles in the game

[grave glen]

Retri needs good roles to die, Tav needs RB immune roles to not spawn

[queen tangle]

LMAO

I want to cat laugh again

But that would be rude

I'm sorry

[grave glen]

No I think they are right there though?

[crimson field]

TS ranges from any role but slightly worse (Amnesiac) to LO+Tav combo (Soc)

[queen tangle]

But you're not describing the TS category

You're describing

ToS's shit game design

[grave glen]

Valid

[queen tangle]

The reason your view of TS is so biased is because you've never seen the category done well

BMG did a shit job designing every TS

That doesnt mean support roles should continue to be shit

Or have "be shit" as a part of their requirements

[grave glen]

Is BMR like a TS heavy list done well? That's the sort of roles I see as TS

But tbf you have lots of TS likes

[crimson field]

TS doesn't have a purpose as far as I've seen, it's just a "we dunno where else to put this" bucket

[queen tangle]

Counterpoint

[grave glen]

This is what it is rn yes

[queen tangle]

It doesnt have to be!

Ive been saying

[crimson field]

I didn't say it had to be

[queen tangle]

With good game design, TS can be given a purpose

[crimson field]

I said it is

[queen tangle]

You dont have to settle for "good enough"

[scenic patio]

???????????????

[queen tangle]

I never settle for "good enough"

[tropic mantle]

tavern keeper can only roleblock so many roles.

Retri fully depends on who dies

(if we are counting soci), it actually gets weaker as the game progresses

Admirer actually helps evils more than anything, and also can literally counter their own tavern keeper teamate.

And amne (yes im counting it as ts), is relient on the first role that dies...

[grave glen]

Gosh

[gleaming rampart]

TS used to range from Medium to Mayor with a Transporter thrown in, it's always been this "cool role but doesn't fit any alignement" thingy

[scenic patio]

ok this is sizchofrenic

[grave glen]

Runs in my family so makes sense

Anyway I've been at this for like close to an hour now, I am aware people aren't a fan of this so I'm gonna drop out of the discussion for now !!

Try again at a later date

TS CORONER CAN WORK I'M NOT INSANE

[gleaming rampart]

Insane was reworked to insomniac you're right

[queen tangle]

1.) Tavern Keeper issue, BMG did a shit job accommodating rbing in their game. Not TS's fault.
2.) Ret needs a hotfix. It's a good idea with shit execution. Not TS's fault.
3.) Admirer is the number one worst role design in the game. Not TS's fault.
4.) Amne is not a role. Not TS's fault.

See the issue here

Okay

Tnt

I want you to view something

This is not the time and place for this Blossom.

[scenic patio]

oh yeah right i forgot... the uhhh

[grave glen]

This is true

[crimson field]

TI finds information for town
TP prevent people from dying
TK kills people with intent
TPow is... really powerful comeback roles?
And TS is everything else

[scenic patio]

ok yeah maybe i shouldn't make jokes like that

[grave glen]

I shouldn't be egging it on either oops

[tropic mantle]

"Not ts's fault". you are literally saying it is ts's fault... and the games fault bro

[queen tangle]

This is my vision for TS

And how I've designed them over on the CTS

Tell me

[scenic patio]

my fault not your

[crimson field]

Wher is that from

[queen tangle]

Is it worse than the TS category we have right now

[queen tangle]

My Vision™️
The one Nuggy asked me to enumerate a while back

[crimson field]

Cool

[queen tangle]

listing every subalignment's purpose

[grave glen]

Does this not kinda fit this description?

[queen tangle]

#1262190422378151936 message

[tropic mantle]

yes i would prefer if it worked that way but right now. ts roles are in a shit spot.

[scenic patio]

lowkey this is a fun Town Special

[grave glen]

true

I said I was gonna leave I need to stop LOL

[queen tangle]

Sure

Imma bring up something weird to prove a point here

Do yall know Botc

[grave glen]

no never heard of it

😋

[queen tangle]

Do yall know a role from Botc called the Pacifist

[grave glen]

Oh yeah I suggested that as an admirer rework LMFAO

[queen tangle]

The Pacifist on paper

Is fucking ass

Because its an ability entirely dictated by the ST and has no agency whatsoever

[grave glen]

People hate pacifist because of how STs run it normally

[queen tangle]

And its not fun

[grave glen]

But if ST runs it right then its based

[queen tangle]

Because people cant interact with the ability

Point being

[grave glen]

I think u made a spreadsheet for it right

[queen tangle]

This is EXACTLY my point

[grave glen]

Flowchart

[queen tangle]

I'm the world's number 1 Pacifist advocist

not because I think the role is well designed

I think its a shittily designed role

[grave glen]

I thought pacifist was mid until I saw your flowchart, it changed my mind on it entirely

[queen tangle]

But what's important is

It has a lot of potential

[gleaming rampart]

what's pacifist ?

[queen tangle]

Therefore

I dont hate the role

I hate how its designed and written

But I dont hate the role

Thats important

[tropic mantle]

you know what. the first game i actually develop will be a social deduction game. cuz why the fuck not.

also

[queen tangle]

Because this is exactly how I view TS

I dont like the TS category atm

[grave glen]

Good players might not die when executed
The storyteller (game host) decides if this happens or not
It's in a script where people lviing or dying is all of the info you get

[queen tangle]

But I do see its potential

[tropic mantle]

again. coro is already somewhat balanced. as its intention is to counter coven.

[grave glen]

executed being lynched

[queen tangle]

And that potential is what im listing out right now

Seperate TS from TM

Give TS its own identity

[grave glen]

I think this role fits your description of TS though so I am confsed

[queen tangle]

By having it consist of roles with unique tools and playstyles that dont overlap other roles

[grave glen]

confuzzled

[queen tangle]

It overlaps hard

[grave glen]

That's fair

[queen tangle]

Its not unique

[grave glen]

It's kind of doing ret's job

[queen tangle]

Thats my issue with it

[dreamy lichen]

yes

[queen tangle]

Anyway

[crimson field]

TS claims are generally viewed as the least trustworthy because town doesn't know what to expect from them

TIs full claim so they don't matter (if their info is false or unhelpful they're sus)
TPs prevent ppl from dying (if somebody important dies theyre sus)
TKs kill ppl (if nobody dies to town they're sus)
Tpows go ham and lead town (if they do nothing when town needs help they're sus)
TS ranges from potentially completely useless and unconfirmable (Ret) to confirmable potential powerhouse (Soc & Tav), and ppl don't like that

[queen tangle]

Im not one to settle for "good enough"

Or instant ramen

If you will

[queen tangle]

This.

TS

Might as well be a RT claim

Because the bucket itself is a joke

Not only are the roles in it all shit because BMG fucked up their execution in some way

(Or in BTOS2's case, Admirer was just shat on for no apparent reason because no one knew what to do with it)

But the bucket itself is a joke because its just TM

Whenever you claim TS

[grave glen]

Vanilla admirer was toxic as hell though

No defending it

Insta confirming bullshit

[queen tangle]

You might as well be claiming "Guys im one of either Spy, Oracle, Trapper, or Prosecutor"

Some other arbitrary combination of roles

[queen tangle]

Again
Settling for "good enough" or "not absolutely mind-bogglingly awful" doesnt cut it in my books

[gleaming rampart]

ToS1 Invest Flashbacks

[crimson field]

The best thing to do as adm in vanilla is propose to a tpow claim, have them reject you and proceed to do nothing.

[queen tangle]

I have a flawless vanilla Admirer guide

Wanna see it

https://wiki.bloodontheclocktower.com/Nightwatchman

[gleaming rampart]

Vanilla Adm is free confirm : the role

[grave glen]

But in this instance I would so much rather admirer as it is rn over the absolute flaming poo show that was vanilla admirer

[queen tangle]

I'd rather have

[grave glen]

I despise vanilla admirer I don't even care

[queen tangle]

Get this

None of them

[grave glen]

Then TS is... two roles!

[queen tangle]

#1265773593657344101

[grave glen]

Any TS slot becomes op

[queen tangle]

Tav and Ret both suck too

[grave glen]

Your idea can't be programmed though I thought this was said

[queen tangle]

Because of their own reasons

[queen tangle]

It can easily be redone to work without Bestow

[grave glen]

I think you should look into that

[queen tangle]

Its just going to need a different execution

Point being

I really dislike game designers who strive for "acceptable" rather than "good" or "great"

BMG to me feels like the epitome of that

[grave glen]

And I really really dislike game designers for a live game who settle on "absolute flaming horse shit solution" over "mid but we can fix it later"

Admirer's current rework was the only solution we had

There has been no acceptable rework since

Tuba has been looking non stop trust me

[queen tangle]

Seriously?

[grave glen]

Not a single one

[queen tangle]

No good TS designs since?

Huh

I wonder why that is

[grave glen]

Every one was either bad or

Not able to be programmed

[queen tangle]

Maybe its because no one knows what TS is fucking meant to be

And it has no design principles

Thus making designing roles for it a shot in the dark

I wonder

Hmmmmmm

[steep raft]

where's my essay on joats

[grave glen]

I have tried looking into botc but even that gave me no inspiration for a TS that can actualy function in TOS

[queen tangle]

Again

[gleaming rampart]

TS was kinda the "easy to confirm" slot in ToS1

[grave glen]

I have nothing

[queen tangle]

Treat the TS category

As

[steep raft]

[queen tangle]

A CATEGORY

And suddenly

You know what to do with it

[grave glen]

That's what I did here though

And yet it's still not good right?

[queen tangle]

Your "category" was kind of just anti swing

You know what

I have an idea

[grave glen]

I would appreciate help on this

[queen tangle]

I would consider myself an experienced game designer
At least, for sdgs specifically

I've homebrewed BOTC for two years and whatnot

I'll give you my rundown of how I design things

Step 1: Concept

To design a role, you need to have a good concept for what it should do.
This concept should be very simple in order to make the role itself simple. Roles should ideally do one thing; if they have the capability to do multiple things, you need to in turn have a "common theme" that unifies the role into one idea. If you can't describe a role's core concept in one coherent sentence, you've failed at making a role.

Designing concepts is easy. You just look at a game and think: "What does this game need?" Alternatively, if all basic niches have been filled, look at ways you can spice things up by introducing new dynamics. "What would make this game more fun?" is the easiest way to do this.

DO NOT DESIGN ROLES IN A VACUUM. ALL ROLES SHOULD BE DESIGNED WITH THE ENTIRE GAME IN MIND, NOT JUST SPECIFIC ASPECTS OF IT.

[steep raft]

i mean
my actual opinion as a setup designer is that ToS categories themselves are restrictive on design in a bad way

was gonna talk about the role itself but like actually its not far off from the standard joat design somehow

[grave glen]

I pulled together everything I considered a TS in botc

• Alchemist
• Alsaahir
• Banshee
• Cannibal
• Courtier
• Engineer
• Exorcist
• Farmer
• .... maybe Fool?
• Hunstman ??? lol
• Lycanthrope??
• Magician
• Mayor
• Minstrel
• Nightwatchman
• Pacifist
• Philo
• Pixie
• Poppy Grower
• Preacher
• Professor
• Sailor
• Snake Charmer
• Maybe Soldier??????
• Virgin

Could technically be TS but they're more Town Special imo

• Atheist
• Amnesiac
• Cult Leader

Massive list right

But then like the majority of these do not translate over to tos in any way

[queen tangle]

Interlude here

[queen tangle]

Stop

BOTC

Is not Town of Salem

No shit, obviously, but you're not going to find any good ideas from botc

That you can port over

[grave glen]

Yeah ofc

[queen tangle]

This is the most important part of my entire process

Execution is just cleaning up the bits

[queen tangle]

Nuggy

When you designed this Coro rework

What was your core concept
Your "thesis", if you will

Can you describe it in one sentence

[grave glen]

A jack of all trades that gains access to stronger abilities as more townies die

That was my main idea

[queen tangle]

Now tell me
What does this add to Town of Salem

[grave glen]

Coroner not being in TI LUL

[queen tangle]

Think big

Don't just think small

You cant make a thousand small changes and expect a coherent game to rise from the ashes

That's how Town of Salem was made

[grave glen]

I suppose that's fair

[queen tangle]

And look where we turned out

Every role in tos

was designed in a vacuum

[grave glen]

I mean like 5 were designed with other roles in mind

maybe?

[queen tangle]

They were literally porting over stuff from SCII Mafia for the first game

Then they did the same thing recursively

Port over stuff from the first game + TiS

Thats why

Town of Salem

Is a horridly designed game

[steep raft]

(to be fair, tos2 iirc was designed before tis)

[grave glen]

SHUT UP AMELIA !!!!!
-# this is a joke ily rlly

[queen tangle]

The developers either refuse to or physically cannot look at the big picture

[queen tangle]

Point still stands

[steep raft]

can't stop won't stop

[queen tangle]

Coroner and Invest were designed in vacuums

[steep raft]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1123735815349096489.gif?size=80&quality=lossless

[queen tangle]

Thats why they're so similar

[grave glen]

I think it's the latter tbf

[queen tangle]

BMG didnt consider how the two roles would be redundent together

[grave glen]

I think they just put whatever sounded good on tbh

[queen tangle]

I also think its the latter based on their many, many red flags (community poll to decide reworks, inability to rework on a large scale without Curtuba's intervention, focusing way too much on fixing independent issues such as Illu fuckery or Wildling neutral fuckery rather than examining their designs as a whole)

[queen tangle]

Exactly

you've hit the nail on the head here

Now compare Town of Salem to Botc

[grave glen]

I will bring up a counterpoint to this all though
I do agree in terms of bringing in new roles it'd be great to bring in new mechanics that multiple roles can bounce off
But sometimes for like, a rework of one role, it's not a bad idea to think small in that instance right?

[queen tangle]

Where EVERYTHING is designed with the big picture in mind

[grave glen]

Hmm

[queen tangle]

Botc is a game that functions entirely off its own ecosystems

[grave glen]

Okay my counterpoint is falling apart

[queen tangle]

Take any given role off any given script

And that script is no longer functional

Or, its at least 20% less functional

[grave glen]

Not always but

Yeah

[queen tangle]

Depends on the role I guess but point still stands

[grave glen]

Every role contirbutes to the core idea of a script

[queen tangle]

Meanwhile look at ToS

Take Sheriff away from ToS and what are you left with

ToS, but without Sheriff

[grave glen]

Mayor you could remove
But it works with TB being simple roles that are a lot about trust and misiformation

[queen tangle]

Town of Salem is an amalgamation of ideas with no coherency

The closest thing to thinking ahead ToS devs did was make a LO/Tracker foil to prevent hardconfirms

And that Lo/Tracker foil is executed so shoddily its a wonder it ever got added in either iteration

[grave glen]

Do we even have the tools to make changes on such a scale to give it coherency though?

I really think it's a bit of an impossible task

[queen tangle]

No

But we can get close

That's what I'm trying to do

I dont settle until I've done the very best I can

I dont tolerate sub-par acts of change

Thats why I've been so focused on fixing these core issues

[steep raft]

I think in order to fix some of tos's fundamental issues you also have to look at things like

[queen tangle]

And why I post so many reworks

[steep raft]

• feedback
• playercount
• neutrals and why they exist in the first place

[queen tangle]

I'm not like some people who just

Rework roles that are the worst of the worst

Or rework their favorite roles because they want to give them some love

I rework every role I believe needs changing

And in this game

Theres a whole damn mountain of em

[grave glen]

I think everyone here thinks most roles need reworking tbh LOL

[queen tangle]

True

But have you seen anyone actually try to rework all of those roles

[grave glen]

But everyone has such massive disagreements on which direction to take them

[grave glen]

Yes

[queen tangle]

Who

[grave glen]

It very rarely goes well

[steep raft]

uhm

i think wave is doing One

[grave glen]

There's like PTN and 5 WTOS servers and

[queen tangle]

What are your opinions on the CTS, if I might comment

[steep raft]

fucker definitely did one

[queen tangle]

Do you think the balance over there is good or bad or something else

[steep raft]

PtN is just flat out a new game now

[grave glen]

It's hard for me to know exactly how it plays together but

I do not count it with the ones I think don't work

By principle

[queen tangle]

What does that mean

[grave glen]

Because even if I don't agree with your takes all the time I think you still know what you're talking about

It's not full of random bullshit

[queen tangle]

Im just asking for your opinion

Im not talking about an objective analysis

Do you think the reworks are good in your subjective eye

[grave glen]

It's hard to give an opinion is what I mean

But overall I think most reworks are good ideas

From what I have seen

I haven't spent time going over every individual one though and

Even if I did, I don't think it would click unless I played but

That involves setting aside time to play discord based SDGs

Which isn't easy

But yeah compared to every other rework server I've seen yours is probably the best

I have seen nothing that makes me go wtf immediately LOL

[steep raft]

thats unfortunate
give me roles that make me go "wtf" in a good way

gotta be my favorite kind of design

:trollface:

[grave glen]

true tbf LOL

I mean in a bad way tho ofc

[steep raft]

yeah indeed

[grave glen]

Either way tho temp, I'm sorry it's not a straight answer but I legit can't give one

Not possible for me

[queen tangle]

You seem to have quite low standards

[queen tangle]

I suppose its fair since you havent played with any of the reworks

[queen tangle]

I sure as hell have gotten wtf reactions from people

Even though most of my ideas are grounded

Most are still unique in their own way

Like Sense, Remember, Bestow, and Monitor

Or Masquerade

[queen tangle]

Have you seen the CTS reworks btw

Not all of them are mine

But i'd say about a third are

[grave glen]

Masquerade is a bit wtf but like kind of in a good way

Anything that’s wtf in a good way might secretly be a terrible idea tho that’s the thing

[queen tangle]

Counterpoint
Im a great game designer and everything I make is perfect

[grave glen]

The bar is very low tbf

[queen tangle]

https://tenor.com/view/clueless-aware-twitch-forsen-emote-gif-25354609

[queen tangle]

Town of Salem players have a habit of setting low bars

Remember when everyone rejoiced when Wildling got its rework

[grave glen]

Valid 10/10 greatest idea will not argue against it again I apologise your highness 😭

(Joke ofc)

[queen tangle]

Then continued glazing it even though it was functionally useless immediately after that

Simply because "Whisper reading is so good guys trust"

(No one ever whispers)

[grave glen]

I was never happy about whisper reading tbf

[queen tangle]

You're in the minority here

Everyone else loves whisper reading

[grave glen]

Yeah ik

Well I did too!

[queen tangle]

Im indifferent to whisper reading

[grave glen]

I loved blackmailer in tos 1 so much

[queen tangle]

Let me guess

Jackal is the reason you hate it now

[grave glen]

Uh

Related

[queen tangle]

Apoc

Being a faction

[grave glen]

It just annoys me in general

Even with townies whispering each other

I like that happening

Not all info should be public that’s interesting gameplay

Whisper reading discourages that

Better to Meta right?

Even if in practice it isn’t that strong it acts as a discourager to playing like that

[queen tangle]

See

On paper

Whisper reading sounds like a bad mechanic

Any mechanic that discourages whispering does

Look at Botc

Early game in Botc is all dictated via whispers

Now imagine if a Botc role could read whispers (somehow)

People wouldnt whisper anymore

[grave glen]

I would cry

Yeah

[queen tangle]

However

Town of Salem

Is not Blood on the Clocktower

Whispers were just another "cool thing" tacked onto the pile of random ideas that tos consists of

They're not a core part of the game

They just... exist

[grave glen]

The game is too fast for it tbf

[queen tangle]

So discouraging them

Doesnt do much

People will still whisper because the chances of Wildling are low and they dont instantly die/lose by doing so (unlike with Rit and full claiming)

[grave glen]

I would love a tos game mode where it’s much slower but you can move around freely during the day in like a TIS styled map and invite people to your house for private chats

For obvious reasons this is supreme wishful thinking

[queen tangle]

Mfw in person Town of Salem

[grave glen]

Yeah basically LOL

I prefer the format so much

Botc made me realise how much I love the slower paced games

But slow mode in tos is shit

And tbf I think this is another thing where it’s the game as a whole why people dislike it

Not that people dislike slower games it’s just that tos ain’t built to move much slower

[queen tangle]

Its because tos isnt puzzley

Town of Salem is not a puzzle game

Its a button mashing game, where mashing the right buttons = win

(Oh and also ig you can track votes)

In Botc

Town getting extra time increases engagement because it gives more time for puzzle solving

In ToS

There is no puzzle

Its either Seer, X, or Y is evil

Y has the weakest claim

So Y dies

There is no puzzle to that

And the deception in tos doesnt lend itself to good puzzlesolving either

Enchanter can go on anyone, Illusionist can go on anyone

It's not like ND or whatever where misinfo is tracable

[grave glen]

ND?

[queen tangle]

No Dashii

[grave glen]

Oh of course

[grave glen]

Roles like poisoner can go on anybody though right? Or is it different because it’s only for the night

[queen tangle]

Poisoner isnt a good example of my point for a reason

Poisoner isnt a puzzle role

Since its untracable

And mobile

Its the most arbitrary of botc's misinfo sources

[grave glen]

Fair

Poisoner still is traceable imo

Since it’s the only poison source that moves around constantly and has no other tells

Although I suppose if they sit on one player yeah

From my experience though you can 100% puzzle out who the poisoner was on

[queen tangle]

Eh

Its only really easy in noob lobbies

Poisoner makes full solves nigh impossible in most games

[grave glen]

Okay valid LOL

That argument works against any of my points for botc because I have far less playtime in it

[queen tangle]

In more experienced games

Evil will be able to spread info that contorts worldviews to where one misinfo point leads to multiple fractures

So its much harder to identify poison when no pieces of info point to the same worldview

[grave glen]

Oh yeah very true

If evil just claim they must have been poisoned that messes things up

[steep raft]

I’m fine with ToS not quite hitting the puzzle urge; it’s more reminiscient of normal mafia.

Except it’s normal mafia that happens at a breakneck pace even for average turbo games

also it solves itself
kind of

like

[grave glen]

Social reads are still important to win more consistently in tos but

Half the time “social reading” comes down to did they push / whisper x or y who is confirmed to be evil because of role flips

[queen tangle]

True

[grave glen]

Also @queen tangle sorry for the ping but what we were talking about before,

Curt has expressed many times that he likes the idea of adding stuff like dual brackets. I do wanna know your thoughts on this though

[queen tangle]

Wdym dual brackets

[grave glen]

Like
This slot can spawn a Crusader or Cleric

[queen tangle]

Oh I love those

[grave glen]

Or this slot can spawn an admirer or coroner

[queen tangle]

the CTS already uses those

[grave glen]

Because fun

Sweeeet

[queen tangle]

Not a good example but sure

[grave glen]

LUL

[queen tangle]

There are legitimate usecases for these

Fun ones

For setups

[grave glen]

I picked my custom Town Useless bracket

[queen tangle]

Like in this rolelist

or this one i guess

[quick ravine]

8v4 but it can be a 5v4 by the actual start of day 2

[grave glen]

For a classic mode list I think 4 evils is a lot yeah

But it depends if that’s supposed to be legit classic mode or something else funky

[queen tangle]

You forget about contingency planning

Which is enabled by default

And prevents N1 deaths