Retributionist Overhaul

[turbid barn]

Retributionist (Town Support)

Attack: None
Defense: None

Abilities:

• Channel a dead Town member during the day, gaining access to their abilities at night.
• Discard a dead Town member's ability at night, freeing up space for another.
• Target a player, using your Channelled abilities on them.

Attributes:

• You inherit the Attributes of any abilities you Channel.
• You may not Channel Town Power roles.

Channel (Day | 3)

• Select a dead Town role to permanently gain their ability when night falls.
• You inherit all ability charges your target previously had.
• You gain access to Special Abilities of your target.

Discard (Night | ♾️)

• Select a dead Town role currently being Channelled to discard their ability at the end of the night.
• Doing this will return a charge of Channel.

Target (Night/Day | ♾️)

• Select a target to use all your Channelled abilities on.
• You may do this once at night and once during the day.
• Conflicting targeting will disregard all abilities that do not fit its criteria.

I know Ret isn't a priority role in terms of changes

[gentle stone]

I actually thought of this in BTOS1

Making revive during the day would make Ret be able to use more roles

[turbid barn]

But this (along with a Necro rework) aims to fix some of the jerkiness of the role while also giving it more use outside of just supercharging dead town abilities

[terse blade]

Something along the lines of this was proposed by Curt right?

[turbid barn]

That was my original concept for a simple rework
It ended up expanding into this though

[terse blade]

But people disliked it because THEYNRIUSEFHI USEHOIESUHGOIASUHGOAIUHG GHGRRRGRGR

[gentle stone]

No

Curts one was Amnesiac 2.0

LOL

I did not like that

[terse blade]

Oh icic

[gentle stone]

Not copying this one 1 by 1 but I could see the day reviving happen to allow ret to use roles like Seer etc

[terse blade]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this there's a lot of text so I am confuse

[turbid barn]

Let me make a tldr

[terse blade]

yes pls

[scarlet agate]

hear me out: delete amnesiac

[turbid barn]

TLDR

• Select a dead townie during day to gain their ability at night permanently
• You can have three abilities held at a time
• You can discard an ability each night if you want to make room for another one
• When you target someone, you use all your held abilities on them

[scarlet agate]

most of rets problems come from amne

[turbid barn]

...or just overhaul it into my Amne

:]

[terse blade]

I am a little bit confused, do you get all abilities at the same time?

Or is it like you pick up one then discard it to get another

[turbid barn]

You gain one at a time, but can hold up to three

Lets say theres a dead BG, Invest, and Admirer

i can choose to gain the BG ability D2, the Invest ability D3, and the Adm ability D4

By N4, i'll have all three abilities

And by targeting a player, I will Guard, Investigate, and Accompany them

[terse blade]

Oh boy

This seems fun but my immediate thought is

Is this even possible

[turbid barn]

It might not be

This is a very experimental overhaul suggestion

[terse blade]

Yeah that's valid LUL

[turbid barn]

If this change is added

I would like a similar one for Necro to be added too

[terse blade]

What happens if you channel a Seer

How would double targeting roles work

[turbid barn]

If you're currently Channeling a Cleric and a Seer

And you choose to target twice

That means your Cleric ability is disabled

You'll only use your Seer ability

[scarlet agate]

if you have bg and cleric couldnt you use them the same time?

[turbid barn]

Yes

But only on one target

[maiden schooner]

redunancy peak

[turbid barn]

You cant visit one person using BG and another using Cleric

That would be stupid

[urban sphinx]

no thats peak balance

[soft gust]

very experimental

will I die if I'm using BG?

[turbid barn]

Yes

[maiden schooner]

imagine using a cleric and vigi on the same target lmao

[turbid barn]

You inherit everything about the role you channel

You act as if you were using their ability exactly

[turbid barn]

Peak

[scarlet agate]

aka you become them

[terse blade]

What if you chose Deputy

[urban sphinx]

target can work at day

[soft gust]

It's very good but I don't think it's possible?

[urban sphinx]

so

[terse blade]

Well

[turbid barn]

It's experimental

[urban sphinx]

youd get a shot i guess

[terse blade]

I don't know if it can

[turbid barn]

Idk whats possible with the current ToS engine

[soft gust]

will you regain charges?

[terse blade]

There's only one possible special ability

Special ability is anything using the shield

[scarlet agate]

you shouldnt regain charges imo

[urban sphinx]

i do have to wonder if it'd be possible to recode ability UI because this really is restricting

[soft gust]

will you regain charges if the dep has alr shot?

[terse blade]

It is that's right

[soft gust]

or not

ah hm

[turbid barn]

No

[terse blade]

I don't think tuba would do it, even curt it would be a huge ask

[soft gust]

dep useless then

[scarlet agate]

cant you use kill capable corpses multiple times

[turbid barn]

You can use an unspent Dep and cook with that

[maiden schooner]

a workaround is making the role infinitely more boring by having it so you can only channel one person at a time

[turbid barn]

Yes, but only if you have enough charges to do so

I'll have a workaround for Necro

That being kill corpses can only be used once

That a non-town Ret will also inherit

[maiden schooner]

or viable by having it so you can choose between what day ability you want to channel during the day

[crystal spindle]

Why does it NEED to be able to have 3 roles at once? Why not just one? That already gives Retri much more coverage than it has currently, esp if it can use Town Powers.

[turbid barn]

It... cant

[maiden schooner]

@turbid barn do that actually yeah

[maiden schooner]

raise is the night ability

[crystal spindle]

Can't use Town Power?

ok

[soft gust]

ts is a comeback alignment anyway

[crystal spindle]

nvr mind that then

[maiden schooner]

channel is the day ability

[turbid barn]

That's already the case

[maiden schooner]

you can only channel one at a time

[soft gust]

except admirer for some reason

[crystal spindle]

I guess that would be Amne's job?

[turbid barn]

https://tenor.com/view/well-yes-but-actually-no-meme-aardman-the-pirates-pirate-gif-26563702

[crystal spindle]

TS is the "we don't know where else to throw these roles" alignment

[soft gust]

this and your amne are very similar ngl

[thorny vector]

Using town power is unhealthy imo but this is a really good change current retri is underwhelming

[scarlet agate]

pretty sure tpow is for comeback

not TS

[urban sphinx]

TS is a subalignment that suffers from the fact that support is a nonsense type of role if you refuse to put protectives in it

[turbid barn]

I tried to make them distinct, but centered around a similar niche of gaining other abilities

Amne is whatever the town needs most in any given situation, but also unreliable and weak before late game

Ret is whatever the town has previously lost, gaining power as lategame gets closer as it absorbs more and more lost powers

[turbid barn]

Atm I think the CT Server™️ does TS pretty well

But yeah

It might as well be called Town Miscellaneous

[soft gust]

I like your amne more than this

[turbid barn]

I do too kid

[terse blade]

What’s temps amne

[crystal spindle]

Why do Ret and Amne HAVE to exist together? We should start a petition.

[terse blade]

What is the temporary Amne

[scarlet agate]

you can become a random TI/TP at night iirc

[terse blade]

Amne is already a temporary role SMH

[crystal spindle]

Current Amne if it actually did its job of being insurance for the Town.

[scarlet agate]

regardless if they died

[crystal spindle]

Not random, you pick.

[urban sphinx]

temp amne is 2 times per game, choose a TI or TP to copy for a night, if evil >= town then become a TPow

[turbid barn]

TLDR

• Gain a TI or TP ability during the day twice; lose it at the end of next day
• When evils equal or outnumber town, become a TPow role (with Marsh being first priority and Mon being last)

[maiden schooner]

how I interpreted it is that you can use all roles you channel however you want whenever you want. While I don't think it needs a balance and think it's fine as it is, to make it work on TOS2 I propose these changes:

• Disable day abilities (special abilities if needed to work on the engine)
• Make Channel a day ability, and choose one of the three roles you want to channel for the night (also a nerf since you can't investigate and barrier someone in the same time

[gritty bolt]

Would you be able to channel a stoned role to gain their role without knowing what it is and gaining feedback?

[turbid barn]

No

[turbid berry]

i think is decent but my nitpick is that is a little too similar to Amne

[turbid barn]

Channeling stoned roles will give you an unknown ability

[turbid barn]

Amne needs an overhaul

[terse blade]

Thank u

[gritty bolt]

that's what I said

Like word for word

[turbid barn]

My mistake, Imisread

[crystal spindle]

Again. we should just delete one of them.

[turbid barn]

i thought instead of saying "without" you said "while"

[maiden schooner]

Parceval disliked if after what you said about Stoned LMAO

[turbid berry]

indeed... change it to... the bon vivan Neutral Special it was meant to be

[gritty bolt]

yeah ret gets hard fucked by Dusa

any ret rework that keep the interaction is an insta dislike

[turbid barn]

I might as well just link my Amnesiac rework here too.
https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1265048360667058336

This rework goes hand in hand with the Ret overhaul.

[maiden schooner]

I agree. horrible counter.

[turbid barn]

@terse blade can you pin both

They go hand in hand really

[terse blade]

Pin what

[turbid barn]

This rework was designed with my Amne overhaul in mind

[terse blade]

Can u reply

To them

[turbid barn]

Pin this please

[turbid berry]

wtf i liked this thread how did it unliked

[gritty bolt]

pin this ig

[turbid berry]

the shadow government..

[turbid barn]

And the actual post

[turbid berry]

pin this message

[terse blade]

There we goooo

[terse blade]

[soft gust]

well I much prefer your amne to this

imo they overlap too much

[turbid barn]

I think it would be better if the Amne message was pinned after the main post

[gritty bolt]

Amne sucks ass

[turbid barn]

If needed, one can be purged to make way for another.
The concepts I think do work in a vacuum though, and the redundancy isnt horrid enough to become apparent

[gritty bolt]

Current Amne I mean

[turbid barn]

It's like Sheriff/Seer redundency

[crystal spindle]

Temp's Amne rework is actually good.

[turbid barn]

Not

Vanilla Invest/Coro redundency

[turbid barn]

Fun fact

[terse blade]

Does that fix it

[turbid barn]

It was actually inspired by BOTC Mayor

Of all things

[turbid barn]

Yes, thank you

[terse blade]

HUH

[crystal spindle]

Oh that's another role we need to deal with. Mayor.

[maiden schooner]

what does BOTC Mayor do?

[maiden schooner]

overpowered or underpowered?

[urban sphinx]

if no one is executed in final 3, town wins

[turbid barn]

It's very far removed
But the idea was a role that could go "guys, I can 100% clutch up this game if we ever end up losing, so its fine for us to play more risky but atm i cant prove myself"

[terse blade]

Ohh ic

[crystal spindle]

Under for sure. It's design literally CANNOT work in a game where Conj, Rit, and Doom exist.

[urban sphinx]

if the mayor would die at night, someone else might die instead aswell

thats botc mayor

[turbid berry]

i still don't know what exactly is BOTC

[turbid barn]

Blood on the Clocktower

[crystal spindle]

Blood on the Clocktower

[turbid berry]

is mentioned more than "coven" in this server

[soft gust]

I am disliking this purely because I want your amne to get in more
I like it, but they overlap too much

[turbid barn]

It's a sdg which is objectively better than ToS at being a sdg

[terse blade]

Mayor should just have ways to not insta die to conjurer or rit

It doesn’t need a big buff at all imo

[turbid barn]

But that's not to say its better in every aspect
its a different game

[maiden schooner]

[9] (2) Ostrich: Basically just PtN Patriarch, so credit to whoever made that role

Mayor (Town Power)

Attack: None
Defense: None

Abilities:
Reveal yourself as the Mayor of the town
Go out of office to be safe for a night

Reveal (Day, 1 Use):
Publicly reveal yourself as the Mayor
Your vote counts triple once you are revealed

Out of Office (Night, 1 Use):
The charge is replenished upon using Reveal
Any harmful visits against you will hit an Unknown Obstacle

[turbid barn]

after all

[maiden schooner]

here's one that's neat IMO

[turbid berry]

Sustainable Development Goals

[turbid barn]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1268501872835039282

[maiden schooner]

also one could argue that's the same for pros and marsh as well

[turbid barn]

I really like this Mayor buff by Ostrich

[maiden schooner]

forgot ostrich posted it in BTOS2

[terse blade]

It’s like TOS but way more balanced AND more chaotic at the same time

And dead just lose their abilities but can still vote and play

And way less info for town so it’s more socials heavy

[turbid barn]

It solves its problem of no kp quite nicely by giving it survivability

[turbid barn]

It's not really anything like ToS

[crystal spindle]

So isn't that just... Mayor but it surives 2 days instead of one?

[turbid barn]

The games are very far removed from each other

[turbid barn]

That's often enough to win a game

[maiden schooner]

can be protected by cleric

[turbid barn]

It can battle evils through attrition

Since evils cant kill it

[terse blade]

It’s * a bit*
Like they’re
inspired by similar things? Just the easiest way to explain it for me LUL

[turbid barn]

But it can kill them

[gritty bolt]

can you target yourself?

[terse blade]

Not everyone knows about other mafia games

[turbid barn]

No

[gritty bolt]

Fuck

Can't self with vig

0/20

[turbid barn]

By default roles cant target themselves

[soft gust]

Not that I don't like this but I prefer your amne a lot more so I would prefer this did not get in

[turbid barn]

I dont think thats something that needs to be implied

[turbid barn]

I agree

Tbh

If only one of my Amne or my Ret were to be added

I would advocate for Amne 100%

[soft gust]

^

[gritty bolt]

Amne / Ret are overlapping too much since amne isn't neutral anymore

[crystal spindle]

Mayor's job isn't to clutch the game when Town is close to losing. Marshal and Prosecutor both already do that.

[soft gust]

if the amne rework gets in then current ret is better?

idk :)

[gritty bolt]

ngl I just want ret to be able to use stoned corpses

I don't care about anything else

[crystal spindle]

The issue with Retri is that it is too swingy, and can use roles without suffering any of the punishment.

[turbid barn]

In the CTS™️, Ret and Amne didnt step on each other's toes that much because Amne was first removed, then plopped back in after being overhauled

[turbid barn]

This aims to fix some of that

The zombie mechanic has always been jank

But removing it makes Ret too weak

[crystal spindle]

i know, i meant that as a reply to Parceval

[turbid barn]

So this is a compromise

[gritty bolt]

Ret is supposed to be a late game monster

[soft gust]

I just want Amne to get in more

[gritty bolt]

since you get stronger for each townie that dies

[soft gust]

do I like this? yes
but I like amne double so I want that in first

[crystal spindle]

Yes. But there are maybe 3 roles that Retri becomes absolutely overpowered with, and the rest are just meh.

That much swing is unhealthy for any role to have.

[umbral delta]

@crystal spindle has leveled up! (6 ➜ 7)

[turbid berry]

i just read a Demon role (Leviathan caught my eyes because of SPN) yeah it does seems kind of fun but the game seems complex to learn

[gritty bolt]

That's a role issue and not a ret one

Seer for instance overshine any fucking TI

same for vigilante

only role that isn't OP when alive that is OP when used by ret is BG

since you turn the 1f1 provided by BG into a 0f1

since he's already fucking dead

[terse blade]

It's surprisingly not
There is a lot of roles yes, but unlike TOS, only a handful are in play at once
You choose what roles can spawn, and all the others basically don't exist for the purposes of that match

[turbid barn]

It's funny because whenever I'm in this server

I have to remind myself that these problems still exist

[gritty bolt]

Alignement cop is bad for the game

idk why it's still in

[turbid berry]

is there like a Pipton of BOTC that my brain can watch on autopilot while still learning about the game

[gritty bolt]

remember when seer could basically check the same guy over and over again, or check revealed rolesz?

[soft gust]

seer gets a massive nerf next update I expect
(being affected by detection immunity)

[urban sphinx]

because somehow this game's actual alignment cop is the "mid" TI

[turbid barn]

See I dont like this because this makes it just a double Sheriff

I much prefer parity cop Seer

[gritty bolt]

Sheriff was bad before they made it so Apocs were sus

[turbid barn]

But oh well

[gritty bolt]

now it's good

[turbid barn]

This is at least better than what we have rn

[soft gust]

It will get overhauled at some point

copium

[turbid barn]

Sheriff in Tos1 was actually quite good

[gritty bolt]

Btw, Reworked invest is basically a healthier seer if you remove the murder

[turbid barn]

The port over to Tos2 and the book passing addition made it far worse though

[urban sphinx]

well yeah but people still thought it was weak somehow

[terse blade]

Uhh, the official channel uploads tons of videos but they aren't like educational exactly

[maiden schooner]

it's pretty bad if you hit UO three times in a row

[terse blade]

Oh and No Rolls Barred actually

[gritty bolt]

that's a UO issue

I don't like UO just because I'd rather die than hit a UO ngl

[turbid barn]

They have a "how to play" playlist

[terse blade]

No Rolls Barred's in person series would be a great watch because they explain all the roles that are in play

[turbid barn]

I reccomend that

[terse blade]

yeah that too

[urban sphinx]

oh right
because the other vanilla TIs were
tos1 investigator
lookout in tplo meta
and mr hardclear machine himself

[turbid barn]

Speaking from experience

I see

[crystal spindle]

The logic behind Seer [and Psychic, for that matter] is that can find any evil role, rather than a specific subset, at the cost of knowing that one of 2 players is evil, rather than knowing that 1 specific player is evil.

[maiden schooner]

[maiden schooner]

[turbid barn]

[urban sphinx]

[scarlet agate]

[crystal spindle]

The issue is the ability to check against Town roles that can then confirm themselves.

[soft gust]

[scarlet agate]

i once hit isolation from a starspawn like 4 times as a sheriff

then as a dead corpse

[turbid barn]

Out of curiosity
Have you seen my Psychic rework that makes it not a RNG Seer clone

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1268266939919372401

[crystal spindle]

"My life is an Unknown Obstacle."

[scarlet agate]

in a row

[turbid barn]

At this point

[scarlet agate]

people thought i was SS lmao

[turbid barn]

I've changed more roles than 2/3rds of the actual game

[maiden schooner]

sounds like a TubaAntics video

[turbid barn]

Wow

That puts things into perspective doesnt it

[gritty bolt]

@turbid barn you should prob do a megathread with links to all your reworks

[soft gust]

which is a bit too much to all get in isn't it

[turbid barn]

Would that be allowed

[urban sphinx]

well yeah but thats just semi-open setup design

[gritty bolt]

@terse blade

[soft gust]

probably not?

[gritty bolt]

would this be allowed?

[turbid barn]

True
I made the CT Server to cope

[terse blade]

uhhhhh

[gritty bolt]

since there's a fucking lotta them

[terse blade]

I'm gonna say no

[gritty bolt]

darn

[maiden schooner]

shut down!

[scarlet agate]

no megathreads?

[terse blade]

I don't want everyone to start making megathreads of their own ideas

[turbid barn]

figured

You know what

[maiden schooner]

just make a doc and link your doc to your posts

[turbid barn]

If you want a metathread of my ideas
Just join the CT Server
https://discord.gg/yexeW8MK

[maiden schooner]

HOLY SHIT

[scarlet agate]

make each individual one a post

[crystal spindle]

Yes, but I don't actually see the use in it, since it checks for EVIL subalignments.

[scarlet agate]

of its own

[terse blade]

That's true LUL

[soft gust]

I find tos fun as the unbalanced mess it is

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[maiden schooner]

CT Server™️

[turbid barn]

I already did

Legit

Search up posts by me

[urban sphinx]

[maiden schooner]

I fucking love CT Server™️

[turbid barn]

You'll see dozens of reworks

[terse blade]

I think these videos https://youtu.be/ojTSUH-Kz0o?si=wjs5rWVtxSKLmV4s are fun, it's not exactly a beginner one but I think you might be able to understand what's going on (possibly!)

I just generally find them fun

[urban sphinx]

VIZIER

[terse blade]

VIZIER

I haven't watched all of their videos I only watched the Legion one and the Lleech one LOL

[turbid barn]

You... find evils with it?

That's the use

Lmao

[maiden schooner]

that isn't CT Server™️ 😡

[terse blade]

But they explain the game

[turbid barn]

If you select two goodies and an evil

You learn an evil subalignment

And if you trust the two goodies

That finds an evil

It has a lot more usecases too

Like negative results returning means that theres exactly either 0, 2, or 3 evils you selected

So if one evil dies in your vision

You know theres another one of a different subalignment

It's still a very puzzley and interpretive ti

Which is what Psychic should be

[soft gust]

@turbid barn I like amne. I am hopeful about psy. I don't know about this yet, but I'll come back to it if amne gets overhauled

[turbid barn]

I'll say

If I were to choose 2 Coven reworks and 2 Town reworks by me to add

Amne and Psy would be my two town ones

HM and Wildling would be my two coven ones

[crystal spindle]

Unless I fail to see the usecases, this is what I see from the role: you check 3 players and get one of two results: You see that an evil subalignment exists, in which case it's current Psychic evil Vision, or you see that you couldn't find an evil subalignment, in which case you basically can't do anything with the information.

[turbid barn]

...no

If you couldn't find an evil subalignment

Think of what that means

[turbid berry]

2:04:56 jumpscar (ty)

[soft gust]

hmer you cooked
I am yet to see wildling I'll look later

[crystal spindle]

It could mean theres just one of each subalignment, though, so you can't use that as confirmation.

[terse blade]

Oops!

Botc games are often very long LUL

[turbid barn]

True

If you're going to play a BOTC game

I advise you dedicate at least an hour

[gritty bolt]

I mean slow sdg are pretty good ngl

[terse blade]

Main things you need to understand this

• The storyteller or game hosts (they are sat in the middle) basically do all the mechanical stuff making the game work - in some instances they can also choose what a player learns, like if they are poisoned (Roleblock but you think your ability still works and get false info)

• the evil team consists of a demon and two minions. If the demon dies, good wins. Nothing happens if the minions die.

• during the day, players can nominate someone, which basically puts them up to stand instantly then everyone votes. Whoever had the most votes at the end of the day is executed

And ofc dead players still get to play the game but have no abilities

[turbid berry]

how many dead tokens does a player have

[terse blade]

They get one more vote

If they die

[turbid berry]

oh

[turbid barn]

You should take a look at Wildling

It's my personal favorite rework

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1264608443378171924

[soft gust]

I took a look.
I don't really mind what happens to wildling tbh. Even if it's weak I'd rather balance town first. then I will look into the coven stuff

a cool rework tho

[turbid barn]

I want all Coven roles to be viable

That's my main goal in reworking them

Currently Coven has a couple of powerhouses and a bunch of filler

Making games very setup-dependent

[soft gust]

A good thing to do. However I am prioritising Town first in what I look at

[turbid barn]

Imo

[soft gust]

there are a lot of coven reworks

[turbid barn]

We should be prioritizing Coven

Coven is suffering right now

They rely heavily on NP for wins in competitive gamemodes

Or otherwise alt wincons like TT

Wildling and DW are the worst offenders of useless Coven syndrome

[soft gust]

yeah
maybe it's bc I'm bad at reworking coven lol

I am not a good judge of coven reworks

[terse blade]

Tbf wildling is like, consistently very weak

[terse blade]

From what I’ve seen they’re doing good overall

Town is much weaker than in vanilla

[turbid barn]

No thanks to themselves

They're doing good because of NP and TT and whatnot

Have you ever played vanilla town

Coven gets stomped

Unless they happen to roll an OP comp

That is

[terse blade]

What was vanilla town’s list

[turbid barn]

(Ritualist seriously needs a tonedown)

[turbid barn]

I dont remember exactly

But it was either 11v4 or 12v4

[terse blade]

That’s probably why tho tbf

10v5 is like the classic setup right

Even in tos 1 mafia had witch

[turbid barn]

I dont remember if a NP existed or not

Now that I think about it

It might have

[terse blade]

Also to be fair TT wise
TT hunt is statistically the worst way for evils to win

[turbid barn]

True.

[terse blade]

It does act as a backup option though it's true

I don't necessarily think coven should be designed to stand on their own though, having a Neutral Pariah works well imo