Serial Killer Rework

[pliant bloom]

just off pure social reads and other information from people

[noble vector]

I am not a fan of random lobbies in botc tbf

That's kinda why I stopped playing

A lot of people were cool but just a couple mean people could bring it down

[pliant bloom]

and our server is dead

[noble vector]

myeah

[pliant bloom]

I mean most of our people stopped playing

like dino and all

[noble vector]

mhm yeah

[austere gulch]

https://tenor.com/view/skull-issues-gif-13031152103567454559

[noble vector]

I played a game with just Uyik and it was really bad

[austere gulch]

Agreed

[noble vector]

Both of my neighbours sucked ass I was bored stupid the entire game LOL

[austere gulch]

Random lobbies are such a mixed bag

Because Botc is such a subjective game

[noble vector]

It's diff to tos because you have to spend 1-2 hours with them

[austere gulch]

People enjoy it in different ways

[noble vector]

And they do not die either LOL

[austere gulch]

And when people want different things out of a game

Things get messy

[noble vector]

Yeah 100%

[austere gulch]

On that note @noble vector you should join our local group sometime

[noble vector]

For botc?

[austere gulch]

Ye

Over on TCC

[noble vector]

I may do 🤔🤔🤔

I have been getting back into SDGs a bit recently

Started playing tos again 💀

[austere gulch]

https://tenor.com/view/dragged-scary-biggest-fear-tangled-disney-tangled-gif-4670447

Town of Salem fans after saying "I'll just play one more game for nostalgia"

[noble vector]

LOL

[pallid portal]

imagine playinng tos

oh my god dude that game was something else

i was like we're %100 lost

especially when i had such a shit fake claim

[lone yoke]

@pallid portal has leveled up! (32 ➜ 33)

[loud nexus]

tubald moment

[noble vector]

Tuba do u remember the one where me and stick pit hagged u into outsider then fang gu jumped to you n2

That was a great time

And then Stick proceeded to fuck around with everyone's roles the entire game and nobody had any idea what was going on

[pallid portal]

bro i cant

my 2nd game i get jumped into

[noble vector]

LOL

Well Curt's second game he was imp so

You have to deal with the curse of being Demon when new

I was minion then demon my first ever game tubald SMH 😤

[ocean rampart]

My third (?) game was kazali in a teensy

[austere gulch]

Fun fact

Did you know that evil being able to do this is the only reason that have an above >40% winrate in SnV

[ocean rampart]

But my first 4 non teensy games were all atheist in some regard.

[austere gulch]

Without this crutch of an interaction it’s been shown that good stomps SnV most of the time

To an absurd degree

[noble vector]

I would believe that honestly

[pallid portal]

ive played like 14 games in total i think

[noble vector]

Pit Hag is stupid strong when it's in play because of how much it muddles up any possible worlds

Imo

[pallid portal]

the game is too long for me and can get real confusing

[noble vector]

But I still like the role

[ocean rampart]

Well temp, having a +1 poisoner definitely aids in snv

[austere gulch]

It’s not specifically PH

[pallid portal]

but like

[austere gulch]

PH doesn’t really do much on its own

Since demon changes are always telegraphed

[pallid portal]

i was informed someone put my modtalk quote in botc unofficial server

[austere gulch]

It’s the FG synergy that makes it OP

[noble vector]

*if the ST is aware they should tbf LOL

[austere gulch]

Play with good STs

Anyway

[noble vector]

Only a problem in newer lobbies

Yeah

[austere gulch]

In snv, the only way evil can play passively and still win is by using the PH FG clutch strat

Every other time

[noble vector]

Well all STs have to be new at some point but that's besides the point, they can play with a more experienced Co ST

[pallid portal]

since this i started cracking down on the insta confirms basically lol

[austere gulch]

They lose for playing passively and not pushing the right worldview

[ocean rampart]

Common tuba w

[austere gulch]

There’s a lot to learn from Botc

[noble vector]

I do remember botc was the tipping point for BTOS' design philosophy

[austere gulch]

It was

[noble vector]

It's when tuba first said about realising how much instant confirmation tos has

I think, only playing tos you don't realise how strong instant confirmation is

[whole grove]

Tuba saw the heavenly lights lmaoo

[austere gulch]

Oh you notice alright

[loud nexus]

hear me out, make Pros not reveal themself when they prosecute someone

[austere gulch]

You just think it’s normal

[noble vector]

But it kind of ruins the foundation of an SDG

[austere gulch]

Until you don’t

[loud nexus]

and replace their messages with Prosecutor in chat

[noble vector]

Yes this is true

[austere gulch]

If BotC is supreme authentic ramen
ToS is the microwave kind

Once you’ve tasted the former

You can’t ever eat the latter again

[ocean rampart]

buff and nerf slapped in one, I like it

[austere gulch]

It’s a straight buff

Pros just announces, then Prosecutes

[ocean rampart]

Actually yea it is

[austere gulch]

This just gives it more options

[ocean rampart]

I was going to say something about no confirmation but nvm

[pallid portal]

i mean admirer isnt insta confirm rn (i agree it needs another rework but still vanilla admirer is an insta confirm) , deputy is in a far more healthier state which can be faked, tpow is capped to a certain amount

[noble vector]

LMFAO WHY IS THIS UNIRONICALLY A GOOD METAPHOR

[pallid portal]

i think i said this a lot of times non tpow roles shouldnt have it

[loud nexus]

I mean if they're announcing anyway then evils will still know they are pros

[noble vector]

Tpow having it makes sense, they don't function without it

[ocean rampart]

agreed for sure

[noble vector]

And they are supposed to be the strongest roles

We are stuck with them either way

[clever halo]

Yeah and this "authentic Ramen" takes 9 hours to cook, so isn't it better sometimes to just take your instant ramen, put it in a pot, mix some beef in there and fry an egg on top?

That's BetterTOS2, and it tastes great. You should try playing during stream.

[austere gulch]

On the topic of Admirer reworks, what would and wouldn’t be feasible to code in rn

[noble vector]

🤔

[austere gulch]

I’ve seen a lot of out there ideas like mine floating around

[loud nexus]

how good would Mayor be if it was the only tpow who revealed their role to the town

[austere gulch]

Btos2 is good, but not great because a lot of problematic roles still haven’t been addressed though

It’s still a massive setup up though

And more importantly

[ocean rampart]

Cursed balancing idea: Mayor reveal is silent.

[austere gulch]

It has a lot of potential

[pallid portal]

Mayor secretly becomes botc mayor.

🧌

[ocean rampart]

Lmao that'd be funny

[austere gulch]

As long as the devs continue working, I can see it becoming great in the near future

[loud nexus]

I have never played botc

what is botc mayor

[austere gulch]

Unironically
My Amne overhaul was inspired by Botc Mayor

[whole grove]

"im mayor trust"

[pallid portal]

that was a troll thing i said

but

[noble vector]

It has a high chance to survive until endgame (looks sus)
If nobody executes on the final chance they have to, then good wins, but it requires lots of trust

[loud nexus]

wtf that's based

[ocean rampart]

Its honestly cool

[noble vector]

You can win without needing to know exactly who is evil but if evils claims it, they can just win no matter how sus people may look

[austere gulch]

Mayor is a solid 6/10 role

It has flaws, but its a neat concept

[whole grove]

Is it possible to have the game go another day where no one dies

[ocean rampart]

No

[austere gulch]

Yes but only if a protection role exists or evil throws

[ocean rampart]

Not usually

[austere gulch]

Monk and Soldier would like to have a word

[ocean rampart]

Oh that's true actually

[noble vector]

Monk can't self right

[austere gulch]

No

[ocean rampart]

Yea I forgot protection 💀

Monk cannot

[austere gulch]

But they can protect the other person

[noble vector]

Yeah so

[austere gulch]

Soldier is basically a perma-self Monk

[noble vector]

If monk somehow stayed hidden until final 3 and nobody executes, technically they can get another shot at it

But that is still final 3 so

It didn't change anything

[austere gulch]

Then they just kill the "Mayor"

[ocean rampart]

A bit of a sidegrade from perma-self monk - monk is death only, but from any cause, soldier is anything from the demon

[austere gulch]

Since the Monk and other player are confirmed good by then

[noble vector]

True
Very very very very very very niche situation though tbf

[ocean rampart]

It is

[austere gulch]

No
Monk is also anything from the Demon

[ocean rampart]

Oh is it?

[austere gulch]

They both use the "safe" keyword

Meaning that all harmful Demon effects are nullified

You're thinking of IK

Which protects from all death, but nothing else

[ocean rampart]

Oh so it is, I got confused

Yea I was thinking IK prolly

[austere gulch]

[noble vector]

Monk is anything, they can stop even like Vortox's misinfo from affecting people LUL

[austere gulch]

I would but I'm mostly busy during those times

I might have time this weekend though

[ocean rampart]

Fr?
I know safe includes ND poison

[austere gulch]

It includes a bunch of things

[noble vector]

Safe from demon doesn't save from minions though ofc

[austere gulch]

Poison from the Demon, turning evil from the Demon, getting false info because of the Demon (rip Vortox)

[austere gulch]

Unless they're holding LM

:)

[subtle field]

+1 day

[noble vector]

I love this game and all its hyper specific interactions

[austere gulch]

to writeup

[austere gulch]

Mathematician exists for a reason

[austere gulch]

The fact that Mathematician can even exist in a game is crazy

[loud nexus]

ngl my main turn off from not playing other SDGs is I'd need to learn all the roles and mechanics

since I'm too used to tos mechanics and roles

[ocean rampart]

Be me: play a total of checks notes 7 sdgs

[austere gulch]

I've played a lot

But a lot of sdgs ive only played once or twice and never touched again

[ocean rampart]

I'm counting btos2 and the cts tm as different at this point btw

[austere gulch]

Fun fact

[loud nexus]

I have played two actual SDGs I think

[austere gulch]

My first introduction to sdgs was mafiabot

If any of you know what that is

[ocean rampart]

TOS was my first

[loud nexus]

three if you count TOS1 as a seperate game to tos2

[ocean rampart]

I do

Its seperate enough

[loud nexus]

and four if you count the Jackbox SDG game

[ocean rampart]

make that 8 for me

I don't count that

[noble vector]

Push the button?

[loud nexus]

yeah

that one

[noble vector]

That does count imo actually

[mellow wadi]

discord SDGs count right

[ocean rampart]

Push the button and amongus aren't as much sdgs i don't think

[loud nexus]

I am in the TOS:A server

[ocean rampart]

Sure hope so because 4 of mine are discord ones

[loud nexus]

still don't know what most the new stuff does

[noble vector]

Push the button is 100% a valid social deduction game

[austere gulch]

I would

[mellow wadi]

I've played 9 then

[pallid portal]

tos1 and tos2 are too different

[austere gulch]

Ngl
All Jackbox sdgs suck

I've played all of them

[ocean rampart]

There's multiple??

[noble vector]

😡

[pallid portal]

jackbox sdgs arent designed to be balanced lmfao

[loud nexus]

what games are SDGs in jackbox again

[pallid portal]

theyre designed for fun

[austere gulch]

I count monster hunting monster as a sdg

[noble vector]

Oh there’s fakin it

[ocean rampart]

As tuba says yea

[loud nexus]

I hate Fakin It

[austere gulch]

Counterpoint: balance is fun

[noble vector]

True monster seeking monster

[ocean rampart]

Never played mhm or faking in

[loud nexus]

I haven't played MSM in ages

[austere gulch]

Also

[noble vector]

I think push the button is smartly designed for the most part, the designers obviously had reasonable knowledge about what makes an SDG tick because there is basically nothing in the way of confirmation

[austere gulch]

Its not just the balance in those sdgs that makes them bad

Its just

I dont like how they're structured

MSM for instance

[loud nexus]

the bioscanner:

[austere gulch]

You're just expected to randomly guess someones role off one convo

[loud nexus]

that being said

[pallid portal]

MSM is not a social deduction

[noble vector]

Monster Seeking Monster is 100% more for fun

[loud nexus]

the bioscanner fucking sucks

[noble vector]

Yeah? Did I stutters

[loud nexus]

it takes too much time and can be a complete waste

[noble vector]

I just stuttered

[austere gulch]

The Bioscanner:

[noble vector]

I said DID I STUTTER

[loud nexus]

actually I take it back

the bioscanner doesn't count

[austere gulch]

I honestly forgot most of that game tbh

[noble vector]

the bioscanner is in no way confirmation

Only the captain learns the result

[loud nexus]

it takes far too long

[noble vector]

Who can easily be an alien

Bioscanner is weak tho yeah

[loud nexus]

and can take far too much time

[mellow wadi]

actually a bit less, I'm counting them now lol
Deception City
ToS1
ToS2
Among Us (i mod this game for a living)
Nightmare Forest
BoTC
Tears of Rebellion

[loud nexus]

for nothing

if there's even one fuck up

[austere gulch]

I've played (in order)

Unnamed Mafia Game (it was hosted by a bunch of fourth graders on the school bus home; I was one of four kids who played it)
Mafiabot
Town of Salem 1
Mafia.gg (mostly lasted through quarantine, then I dropped it)
Among Us
Wolvesville (once)
Blood on the Clocktower
Town of Salem 2
Goose Goose Duck or whatever it was called (Once)

[ocean rampart]

Drop Nightmare forest and amongus (played but not much) for including the CTS tm - I also included deception corporation, although that one hasnt played yet

Oh i've also played werewolf in person a bunch

[mellow wadi]

oh right i forgot about wolvesville

i played that

hated every second of it

LMAO

[austere gulch]

Yeah

I

Left in the middle of my first game

[loud nexus]

ngl tos2 is the only SDG I really actually play

and even then in vanilla I scroll NE

and tome NE

[austere gulch]

Twas premium steaming dogshit

[mellow wadi]

i still need to write up deception corporation role cards lmao

mostly the abnos i should probably crunch mode through those

[ocean rampart]

I'm looking forward to it

Although I uhh still am on d33 in game

But that's fine

[mellow wadi]

it's ok
I'm sure it'll be fine with the first day's quota being like 1k

[austere gulch]

Fun fact

My first introduction to tos was a meme that was essentially a "Only real OGs remember the original among us"

[noble vector]

No joke this was basically TOS 2’s marketing campaign

[austere gulch]

And it showed this picture

[noble vector]

But not even as a meme

[austere gulch]

It was on reddit

[mellow wadi]

my first introduction to tos was uhh

[austere gulch]

That post forever changed my life

[mellow wadi]

i think it was town of us?

[noble vector]

Lmfaoooooo

[loud nexus]

my first introduction to tos was uhhhhhhh

[noble vector]

I was introduced through a friend who mildly enjoyed the game

[loud nexus]

I don't actually know

[noble vector]

And then I got addicted oops

[mellow wadi]

Alch showed me town of salem and told me that it was the basis for what town of us is

[noble vector]

And then I got drafted as an artist for better tos and can no longer escape

[mellow wadi]

got hooked on it ever since

worst mistake of my life

[loud nexus]

all I know is

I saw a modded tos1 stream at one point

and that's how I started watching tuba

[mellow wadi]

that reminds me how me and nameless broke btos1 in unforeseeable ways when it first came out

i think

this image is enough explanation

[noble vector]

Tos 1 was held together with like duct tape and glue bro LUL

[mellow wadi]

tos1 was fine lmao

[austere gulch]

POV: Italy

[noble vector]

It was super exploitable from what I hear

[mellow wadi]

jugg in vanilla customs was EVERYWHERE

[austere gulch]

Theres a reason Mafia in ranked had a <15% winrate

💀

[mellow wadi]

there was a dev only mode that I'm pretty sure tuba found??

[noble vector]

Did people cheat? I never played ranked I don’t know loool

[mellow wadi]

cause they used an exploit to access CTT every week

[ocean rampart]

Me when mafia is the uninformed majority

[noble vector]

I think tuba found out how to literally morph reality to his whim in tos 1

[austere gulch]

No but
TPLO meta + guaranteed Jailor + 3/4 town roles were straight up unfakable by Mafia

Usually means death

(Also cheaters)

[noble vector]

Ah right

[mellow wadi]

ToS1 was super exploitable actually now that i think about it

[noble vector]

I have just heard many stories from tuba and Curt

[mellow wadi]

you used to be able to edit things that are client-sided which really shouldn't be client-sided

[noble vector]

And dozens of game breaking vulnerabilities

That were patched

[noble vector]

Yeah like all the role logic was client side iirc

[ocean rampart]

That's a no-no

[mellow wadi]

you used to be able to edit crus target perms so that you could target yourself LOL

[noble vector]

Mhm!

[ocean rampart]

Don't put any critical bits client side

[noble vector]

Tuba used it to haunt inno voters as jezter

[vocal heron]

walmart vet 🔥

[noble vector]

The entire game was basically client side from what I know

[ocean rampart]

Hmmm

Great design, 255/10

[noble vector]

Fr!

[mellow wadi]

Specific roles had certain target properties

like for example

necro had a special property

[ocean rampart]

we have vet at home.

[mellow wadi]

so did GA since it could act while dead

now.
what people found out was "what if we took GA target code and put it over here"

[noble vector]

Oh my GOD LOL

[noble vector]

This is why Pmer menu used to open when you chose a target, but now it’s forced to use the shield icon btw, from what I understand

[icy jewel]

tos1 really was held together by glue huh?

[vocal heron]

Walking Dead modifier leaked

[noble vector]

LUL

[mellow wadi]

you used to also be able to uh

give pest a death note

since it didn't for some reason!!

[icy jewel]

idk why pest didnt when everyone else did

[noble vector]

I think

You could

Straight up

Reveal everyone’s roles D1

[mellow wadi]

it's probably an issue with PB

[noble vector]

Anyway tos 2 everything is now handled client side

[mellow wadi]

I'm taking a look rn

[noble vector]

No more horrific game breaking exploits !

[mellow wadi]

jester and vigi has their own target behavior

hm

oh wait
id be willing to believe the vigi check is for killing a townie and/or being unable to act n1

[vocal heron]

reminds me of this

Sheriff with Death Note

[dire pagoda]

"looks like my finger gun worked to great effect this time around"

[twin nest]

+1

[noble vector]

But counterpoint shroud already does ghost things and the ability to disguise as another player is in no way exclusive to a ghost character

And if we’re looking at that flavour side of things I think a serial killer faking their death and disguising is completely plausible with how much other shit evils get away with in this town

Mfw town can’t tell who it was that chucked a meteor at someone in broad daylight

Or remember who they elected as Mayor

[vocal heron]

yet the Hangman knows who shot a bullet at the Cleric, but only if the culprit is a good person and is alive

[lone yoke]

@vocal heron has leveled up! (62 ➜ 63)

[graceful stratus]

Honestly both Shroud and Serial Killer are so bad, it's weird that this is even a debate on who gets it since at the end of the day it will not impact the meta in any significant way

[noble vector]

Hangman is their own informed minority 👍

[noble vector]

Shroud is not bad, Serial Killer is terrible

Shroud is around where NKs should be winrate wise

With Arsonist

Werewolf takes a huge nose dive in wins after that then SK is dead last

Reasoning being they’re both really inconsistent and suicidal

[graceful stratus]

NK is just bad in general, nothing will change that lol

[noble vector]

Do you think the hangman is like secretly the game master

[graceful stratus]

It's not their fault it's just the concept of a NK is going to make the role hard to win with

[noble vector]

I mean… true ish? But Shroud and WW both win around 20-25% of the games they spawn in

SK wins under 10% LOL

[graceful stratus]

So most NKs just act as chaos factors

[noble vector]

The disparity in how strong they are is huge

[graceful stratus]

Where did you get this?

[noble vector]

Tuba

[graceful stratus]

I'm genuinely surprised if this is true

I never see them win

[noble vector]

Ah SK wins just over 10% actually

These stats will be outdated now tbf

We will see updated stats soon

But I think in the case of the NKs they aren’t very far off their true power levels

[graceful stratus]

coven is still op ofc

[noble vector]

Shroud and Arso literally win over twice as much as SK

Yeah it’s all any tbf

Evil maj happens a lot there

[graceful stratus]

I wonder if NP has anything to do with it

[noble vector]

Definitely but

Idk how much

It’s more chances for evils to spawn either way

[graceful stratus]

A second/third temmate is pretty huge

[noble vector]

And they are plan anti town so no infighting

Bers winning most of any Apoc makes sense because they are the only one with defense left

[graceful stratus]

Also I would assume people in this mod think much deeper and don't let coven get away with shenanigans as much

[noble vector]

And consistent killpower

[noble vector]

This mod is still heavily casual

Tos in general is very casual

Most competitive players move onto other games from my experience

[graceful stratus]

NKs in vanilla die to everything, including coven hard pushing you with no evidence

It's much better here

[noble vector]

Also

No coven leader with powerful attack is another thing

And no deputy with powerful attack

[graceful stratus]

Yes

[noble vector]

Oh vanilla CL is same as modded tbf

[graceful stratus]

No TPow scrolls either

[noble vector]

I forgot it was changed

Yeahhh no scrolls

Also NKs can kill apoc more easily, town overall is way less confirmable meaning they can’t process of elimination find NKS

Lots of reasons why they do better

SK is still stupidly inconsistent though and Werewolves still kill each other

Arso is also actually weaker than tos 1 becuase the game overall is faster

Arso was a monster in tos 1 tho

[graceful stratus]

I have never won as shroud but only just recently won as SK

I even got doomed by a doomsayer LOL

and still won

[tight pier]

I do think “true all any” is also a factor to nk winrate lol

[noble vector]

100%

But

There’s a reason SK and WW are SO much lower winrate wise than Shroud and Arso

[graceful stratus]

I would think NK would do better in a mode like PJR

[tight pier]

I would argue NK actively does worse there

[graceful stratus]

i guess so

[noble vector]

Shroud and Arsonist are both consistent, and both have stealth factors to not get caught (to different extents ofc)

[tight pier]

NK doesn’t like limited claimspace and doesn’t benefit near as much from 8v7

[graceful stratus]

TAA is evil-sided

after all

[tight pier]

Well okay

[graceful stratus]

kinda

[tight pier]

JR is also evil sided

But its not NK sided

[noble vector]

To be fair though

[graceful stratus]

defintely not

[noble vector]

They are more NK sided now that apoc hasn’t got defense and coven don’t have 5 anti NK measures

[graceful stratus]

I haven't looked closely at NK stats I forgot arso was actually good

[noble vector]

NKs counters got weaker

They will always have numbers and a variety of tools over NKs though so they’re always stronger l

[graceful stratus]

NK counters were way too extreme before

[noble vector]

Unless you make NKs unfairly strong

[graceful stratus]

The problem with buffing NKs too much is that they become an easy hang

[tight pier]

I mean yeah NKs do kinda have to be sorta mid because uh
NKs in a 15 player game moment

[noble vector]

Yeah they will always be mid

It’s how it is

They aren’t like NEs or NPs, they have to make it to the end to win

[tight pier]

Alternatively
Fuck it we ball, tol nk balance

(This is objectively a bad idea because tol NKs were. Well. Something)

[noble vector]

Explain NOW !!

[graceful stratus]

Give NK an alternate win con (fr)

[tight pier]

Reaper didn’t need to make it to the end!
They just needed to make it to final 6 and then they controlled the vote

Lmao

[noble vector]

What LOL

[tight pier]

Reap a player, chill a player, suddenly you can’t get voted out

BALANCE

[noble vector]

YAYY

[noble vector]

Tbf this is what apoc was supposed to be initially I think

[tight pier]

Possessor won at final 4 because uh
They gave it vote manip to let it fake Noble

[noble vector]

But four horseman existed as well so everyone said to make them a faction

?!

[graceful stratus]

apoc definitely works better as a faction

[tight pier]

As it turns out giving the already very strong NK vote manip was a very good buff

And then as it turns out sorcerer suffered from abysmal winrate because it didnt win at final 4 despite being 2 KPN

Don’t be like tol
Don’t give your NKs vote manipulation

[graceful stratus]

If baffles me how with VM, coven gets voting majority at f'ing 9 players but all NKs get it in a 1v1 or on 4 if it's two.

also with conj

and add 2 more players if there are NP

Maj at 11 players is totally fair WAHOO!

[restive kite]

tpows are also defo stronger than any coven member or apoc

well at least transformed pest is only weaker than a tpow

any other transformed horseman shreds

[graceful stratus]

The Judge has decided to call court!

[restive kite]

but it also depends on the mode

judge is stronger than mayor for somereason

u cant die to evils and u can know ever yrole and stuff

[graceful stratus]

I don't even think pros is that good

[restive kite]

and u dont need majority to vote someone up cause u got 3 votes

[graceful stratus]

Neither is mon

[restive kite]

tt pros is op

[graceful stratus]

well duh

[restive kite]

monarch is fine it's just that tt is what fucks it up

[graceful stratus]

actually scratch that, mon is still better than most town roles and mayor

jailor and marshal are sitting pretty as two of the best roles period

[restive kite]

i dont like how in jackal returns random neutral can be neutral pariah

cause it's just an advantage to evils

but if it's a nk or something it's a gambling disadvantage

cause rneutral with np literally adds an extra vote

and this is jackal returns where there are 7 evils and 8 townies

4 pandora, 1 jackal, 1 neutral and 1 recruit

[graceful stratus]

tbf jackals and coven have the capability of crumbling each other if they push each other too early

[restive kite]

so random neutral being ww for example means "aw fuck" to pandora or coven

or sk

or idk

but if it's np ure kind of

guaranteed win

cause evils ignore the nps

since ure between them

among them

making town has one less extra vote

cause if it was another neutral it doesnt count as an extra vote as they need to win by themselves as well

they gotta push their opposing factors as well

[loud nexus]

RN is fine as a slot in Jackal mode tbh

means that it could be anything from Jester to recruited Arso

[dire pagoda]

I think that the swing of it being anything from a jester to a recruited arso is what people would tend to disagree with

[loud nexus]

tbh I'd say the main issue is it being an unrecruited NK killing the evils for town

[pliant bloom]

ah yes the SK wins more than the sk

[noble vector]

OopsLOL

[cold plover]

Can we see the faction winrates?

I could look myself tbh

found it

[dire pagoda]

coven

[cold plover]

@lusty oyster here's your stats proving shroud is the strongest NK ig

and how miserably weak sk is

[dire pagoda]

it's like the other factions just consume the town winrate but the coven winrate remains intact

[loud nexus]

that makes sense

every single faction wants town dead

it's just they also happen to also want every other faction dead in TAA

[cold plover]

Also here's PJR

Another sk L

[loud nexus]

and town gets caught in the crossfire most the time

[loud nexus]

WW and Arso L not even showing up

[dire pagoda]

we LOVE tiny sample sizes!!!

they should definitely be taken at face value to gauge the strength of the roles in the game

[cold plover]

btw both these wins are Recruit wins fyi

'shroud is a bad recruit!!!!'

[dire pagoda]

as we all know that trapper is just by far the best town role for some reason

[loud nexus]

trapper can cook

[cold plover]

let trapper cook

[fathom horizon]

trapper is a pretty strong townie

its ability cannot fail at all unless it gets disrupted

[cold plover]

when it's recruited it does

[dire pagoda]

did amne appear in 4 games and only win 1 or something?

[cold plover]

well only 3 RT there

[dire pagoda]

25% seems quite specific

[cold plover]

so it's not that surprising it's not a common role

well we get better stats this week

we will see!

[dire pagoda]

comparing the nks based on these winrates is kinda pointless

[cold plover]

well yeah
but we know sk is weak anyway

[dire pagoda]

yeah

I honestly do think it would still be pretty weak with this

[cold plover]

I think you're underestimating how strong disguise is

[dire pagoda]

I mean

you sure can switch with someone confirmed and ride it out from there

but you're also still sk

very easy to be found out mechanically or just kinda die

[cold plover]

well ig we will see how strong it is?
disguise is really fun and strong

[lusty oyster]

yes i get it sk is bad i knew this
i thought sk was op bad not up bad
i get it gal

[cold plover]

i see

[austere gulch]

That’s… not a good thing.

[dire pagoda]

this kinda relies on the confirmability of others, actually

[lusty oyster]

no really im bored of that specific agurement

i was wrong

[dire pagoda]

it doesn't have anything to protect itself or hold out a fake claim

[cold plover]

im proving it

[lusty oyster]

yeah

shroud best

[dire pagoda]

so it basically needs someone else to be completely trusted

[cold plover]

I think in practice it'll be really good

but you never know

[lusty oyster]

i just realised, we have dude, and gal, but tf is the non-binary term

[dire pagoda]

dude

[lusty oyster]

i mean i guess?

[dire pagoda]

it's like saying "hey guys" to a group of people, where it can be considered gender neutral

[fathom horizon]

dude/guy is the gender neutral term. boy is the male equivalent to gal

[noble vector]

Tbf it's not gender neutral to everyone but

I call people of any gender dude

[patent rapids]

Shroud having more winrate than WW??? NERF IT !

[woven schooner]

y'all?

[lusty oyster]

no yall is a group term

[graceful stratus]

dude is also the female term if you think about it

[winter escarp]

Them is all a group term

[graceful stratus]

There will always be swing in every mode via the quality of the players and through the slots they take and that’s okay

Modes need replayability too

[winter escarp]

Optimal role design is making sure the game lasts 10+ days

[woven schooner]

darn

okay nuggy this will look strange outta context

[woven schooner]

human fleshbag

[patent rapids]

If you don't want to hurt someones feeling by calling htem a wrong gender dont' talk to them.
pretend to be mute

or call them an "it"

[lusty oyster]

??
what did they say

😭

[noble vector]

Bitches and Bros and Non Binary Hoes

Dudes and Gals and Non Binary Pals

[noble vector]

Didn't get automodded L

[noble vector]

[winter escarp]

One could argue "Hoes" is still leaning feminine

[noble vector]

Uhhhh

Possibly !

[cold plover]

go with the other one then

[noble vector]

Idk I call all genders hoes 😋

[cold plover]

i love this emoji

[woven schooner]

the other thing did lmao

[noble vector]

Thx I made it myself :D

[cold plover]

ohh

oop

[patent rapids]

https://tenor.com/view/kassadin-cries-gif-26994160

[noble vector]

I just stole and turned that not frown upside down

[noble vector]

the unholy cursed stickers

[cold plover]

wanna see smth even more cursed

[noble vector]

[lusty oyster]

tf is thi even form

[noble vector]

Proxz's server

[patent rapids]

SOme people need therapist

FAST

[dire pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/town-of-salem-town-of-salem-2-marshal-marshall-tribuna-gif-4084709207607513074

kill them all

[restive kite]

ww rework when

[restive kite]

how tf does shroud win more often than sk or ww

[cold plover]

bc it's stronger

[restive kite]

wasnt shroud literally considered a joke

i mean they cannot catch you with lookout

at least

[cold plover]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1272531366332076083

[restive kite]

hmm ok but give it powerful attack at least

no rampage

[cold plover]

but we've proved it doesn't need it

[restive kite]

what if u need to 1v1 a nk

in btos it doesnt need it cause apocs have defense removed except bers

but in all any

[cold plover]

that's an all any issue

[restive kite]

hell yeah see

erm so guys let's make ethereal powerful attack for nks heheheheheh

[austere gulch]

Don’t make me tap the sign

[restive kite]

lagspikes, dont

[restive kite]

what sign

[icy jewel]

wrong sign

same point

[austere gulch]

It was this but with “We don’t balance around All Any”

[restive kite]

oh yeah

[tight pier]

Powerful Attack on Shroud is negative utility unless it isn’t put on the actual shroud mech

So

[restive kite]

but idk bro what if a bodyguard selves or a monarch

what if what if

[icy jewel]

imagine killing yourself at night because of your attack

because shroud

[austere gulch]

You could make it so the Shroud themselves is immune, or attacks the target if the target visits them

But point still stands

Shroud doesn’t need it

And it’s very jank as it is

[restive kite]

witch also has a weird interaction with trapper too or so mething

[tight pier]

Powerful Attack is also a shit buff anyway because it does literally nothing else but make neutrals easier to kill

[austere gulch]

Ye

[tight pier]

Poor man’s strongman strikes again

[restive kite]

when witch witches a trapper theyre hit by trap but survive

[restive kite]

it should at least be able to kill monarch and bodyguard

well he can kill monarch's knights if ure silly enough

he's a killer after all

[tight pier]

Why
How does this actually buff it in a significant way

[restive kite]

cause it feels more satisfying

[tight pier]

[restive kite]

and it's a nk

imagine a nk having the same attack as some sad coven

not lore balancing, it's literally there nk, k = killing

!!!

[austere gulch]

The troll has gone too far

Pack it up guys

[restive kite]

im not a troll shut up

[tight pier]

Unforchunate

[austere gulch]

On an unrelated note, Knighted BG is hella underrated

BG basically becomes a double defender since they can vest twice

[noble vector]

Been over this many many times but

Shroud has:

• More consistency
• Better stealth
• More potential KP from finding Seers

SK:

• Has a super inconsistent power that, can easily be lost and make it basically 1kpn
• Even if it does work it can be suicidal if it runs into other SKs
• No way of staying hidden

[restive kite]

as long as there is a lookout nobody is gonna attack the bg tho

[restive kite]

well the issue is that everyone finds shroud in all any games, only got shroud in one game of jackal returns hahahaha

[cold plover]

but it wins the most in all any (out of the NK)

what's your point

[restive kite]

i mean the first time i got shroud i won

[tight pier]

To be fair shroud’s actual central mechanic is just underwhelming as hell
It trades off choosing who dies in favor of not visiting the kill target

Which is

😔

[delicate saddle]

Arso has:

• inno i am mon/vigi i'll proof tonight

[icy jewel]

“tpow here tplo!”

[restive kite]

thing is

with arsonist people just

ignite 8 people and lose

but most of my wins i get them from killing the last 2-3 doused targets

so kinda bullshit

[restive kite]

same u could say for pb

[sullen finch]

i kinda fw this rework

[austere gulch]

That makes 60 of us

[vocal heron]

real

[craggy geyser]

Freaky Friday ()

[viral mica]

This is nostalgic considering the old Disguiser. The reason it didn't work well was because you couldn't pick the role you died with. However, this makes... SK powerful if you kill a "confirmed player"... In an SK game, no one is confirmed anymore. Also... disguising as a revealed Tpow seems easy. Is there any exception to that?

[pallid portal]

if you disguise as a revealed mayor you wont have the votes. for pros youll be asked to pros again

i dont think thats a hyge issue

[viral mica]

Ooh ok interesting yeah

[lone yoke]

@viral mica has leveled up! (0 ➜ 1)

[noble vector]

Disguising as confirmed players is part of the design anyway, adds to the social element of the game. That player you've been trusting the whole time might've just been jumped to by a Serial Killer, so you have to do social reads to tell when something is different

Also Firestarter pfp based

[viral mica]

!!! Small world, didnt know anyone knew him.

[noble vector]

I accidentally found someone from the server in the comment section of a video on the game as well LOL

[loud nexus]

you can only disguise yourself as a revealed tpow if they are either marshal with no tribunals or prosecutors with no prosecutes left

[winter escarp]

Pretty sure you can Disguise as those, revealed or otherwise. You just can't use their abilities.

[pliant bloom]

without being obvious

[winter escarp]

Yeah lol

[loud nexus]

I know, I just mean if you wanna do it without being obvious

cause if the marshal isn't using their second tribunal then that's pretty sus

[winter escarp]

Yeah lol

It'd be a ballsy play

Better yet, you can just claim Audited

[loud nexus]

The Judge has called Court!

"guys I was audited"

[winter escarp]

Exactly

[shell sail]

Honestly I almost wish it worked like how Poss worked in ToL then where the disguise attack was stronger in some way but that might just break other neutrals

[restive kite]

basically just like vamps biting tpows

[restive kite]

my sister is studying for criminology so she might as well see the changes in behaviour speech and personality in the disguised player

[whole grove]

Not everyone is your sister though

[winter escarp]

How would you know that?

[shell sail]

Wait what happens if you jump the same night a Monarch Knights you or your victim

what happens?

[whole grove]

Would make the most sense for it to fail on the body that's being left behind and succeeed on your new body

[loud nexus]

I mean if they knight you and you 'die' then it should fail

[whole grove]

Yea

SK is A and swaps to B

Scenario 1: Mon knights A and fails
Scenario 2: Mon knight B, the SK becomes knighted as they are now B

[noble horizon]

aros

[restive kite]

:((

thank god then

[inland geyser]

@uncut geode this is another one I was going to call "skinwalker"

Are you a spy

[uncut geode]

what

[inland geyser]

Y'know how I was joking about how they were stealing my ideas and there is a spy giving my ideas to the btos2 people

[inland geyser]

^

[uncut geode]

of course not

[inland geyser]

Lol

[quasi moss]

Shapeshifter among us

[whole grove]

When the upvote count is 69

[upper nebula]

You should prob give it a way to get 1.3kpn since nks should be able to get over 1 kill per night

[icy jewel]

how would they only kill one and one third of someone

would they cut them in 3?

[whole grove]

Serial Killer
Ability 1: Stab someone, dealing a basic attack
Ability 2: Stab someone, but less, if you stab a person 3 times this way you kill them.
You may use both at the same time

[upper nebula]

If bob gets 5 kills in 2 nights he gets 2.5kpn
That doesn't mean bob stabbed someone half to death twitce

[dire pagoda]

who's bob and why is he on such a rampage

[fathom horizon]

yeah bob needs to go to jail

quintuple homicide

[woven iris]

æugh
i'm biased but i don't really like this on SK

[clever halo]

I think your idea was better but people already shouted that down.

[woven iris]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

The version that Tuba displayed was a weaker version of mine which was already pretty weak compared to the other variants that popped up afterwards

So if I had to guess, was "too weak" the issue?

[clever halo]

You would have to go to the original thread for that, but from what I understand yes

[woven iris]

That

That is hilarious

I never posted my rework here though so where is "the original thread for that"

[clever halo]

Tuba's

[woven iris]

...

this...

this is tuba's thread

[clever halo]

There was one for the original one, this is not that

This was a Shroud thread that got renamed

[woven iris]

i don't see any other SK rework thread made by tuba on this server

Am I on shrooms?

[clever halo]

It's possible that thread was actually on the personal discord server, my memory is a bit spotty since it's been a long time.

We both could be on shrooms.

[woven iris]

This is why I stick to recolors most of the time

[cold plover]

was yours the old CL one?

[dire pagoda]

it could be that it's old enough that it doesn't show up on the search tool anymore

or maybe he just never made a thread for it here

that's what I wanted to say

actually, yeah, the first time I recall seeing the sk rework was in that announcement in april

[icy jewel]

didnt mystic post it on the tos discord?

[dire pagoda]

no?

why would mystic post tuba's version

[fathom horizon]

he did post it here im pretty sure

probably deleted

[vocal heron]

The original SK rework was this thread, but it was changed to this rework. The original messages near the top of the post are about the original post. Heck, quite a bit of the likes are for the original post.

[cold plover]

This was originally a shroud rework

[tight pier]

No this thread was for shroud

[vocal heron]

it wasnt

[tight pier]

It was

[cold plover]

Yes it was

scroll to the top

[tight pier]

Check directly below the pinned messages

You see people discuss shroud

[vocal heron]

i checked it a week ago and it was pre-season 3 CL as SK

wtf happened

[cold plover]

same name different thread?

[fathom horizon]

yeah same name different thread

theyre both called serial killer rework

[noble vector]

This was originally a shroud thread

The proposed SK rework where it would become like old CL was ages ago it was proposed on stream

[graceful stratus]

Making SK/CL doesn't really make sense anyways, this is better

Not perfect but better

[pliant bloom]

and is legit useless outside of all any and monarch/vet bullying

[fathom horizon]

making a 1:1 cl didnt make sense

that was crap

but the main concept between switching between 2 modes with distinct attributes

that was a good concept

[pliant bloom]

not really

there was no reason to ever go dangerous lol

[fathom horizon]

because the execution was ass

tuba and mystic worked with the assumption that powerful meant something to nks

that it was worth losing all the perks of being one

while making its defensive barebones af

[pliant bloom]

even your rework was just okay

it sometimes gave extra KPN and in other cases had basically no usage

[fathom horizon]

yeah that was its usecase. extra kills are a big deal and sk being the only nk save for the horsies who can get multiple kpn makes it extra valuable

[pliant bloom]

werewolf

shroud in certain cases

and arso on a technicality

literally every nk does or has the opportunity to do that lol

[dire pagoda]

I was thinking werewolf especially

its entire identity wagers on getting more than 1 kill in a single night

if ww isn't getting >1 kpn it just becomes straight up directly inferior to the other nks

[woven iris]

I though KPN was also about the total number of kills throughout a game?

like not just getting X amount of kills in a single night
but X amount of kills divided by Y nights

[woven iris]

Also my stats further vindicate this as there is a clear distinction between the NKs that get regular access to Powerful+ (Arsonist and Werewolf) and the NKs that don't (SK and Shroud)

I think the version I originally made was too weak now, but I do think Powerful+ attack on NKs is valuable and, at the bare minimum, should be consistent across NKs

[teal peak]

All NKs have a KPN of 1 or better, but it has it's issues for all of them.
SK: its bloodlust that everyone hates but the rampage is what brings it up
WW: it trades the nightly kills for rampages so unless hugely unlucky KPN should match 1 or be better
Shroud: entirely dependent on seer to increase KPN
Arso: dousing visitors lets it increase it's KPN though doused players being killed really weakens that.

That's also why most agree NKs need buffs, all of them have fluctuating KPN that can be higher but can also easily be lowered.

[noble horizon]

Ah yes kills per ngame

[lone yoke]

@noble horizon has leveled up! (20 ➜ 21)

[shell sail]

Also This role probably needs a way to learn roles or alighnments to some capacity, otherwise you could very easily mess up a disguise and permenantly screw yourself over

[pliant bloom]

we do not need rolecop nk unless its like werewolf

[shell sail]

Not full on rolecop

just a way to find out if your ass is jumping into coven

because MAN that would suck

or just give it 2 disguise charges

[pliant bloom]

align cop may be ok

[cobalt flume]

Kills per night 💀

[gilded hornet]

i left a similar comment on a video somewhere, but i feel like it would be cool to have neutral evils disguise as whoever they kill (jester and exe can only disguise as guilty voters, doomsayer can only disguise as a guessed role), and continue on without leaving town. once all other non neutral evil evils are killed, the neutral evil starts a tt timer

[noble vector]

Guys they added a new BOTC role :D

[pliant bloom]

I saw

it's weird

[noble vector]

ITS COOL

[pliant bloom]

eh

more abilities but easier to solve

[fathom horizon]

honestly idk how to feel bout typh

[noble vector]

I mean I’ll have to see it in practice more

I think it’s got a cool upside and a cool downside tho

If you’re playing with randoms it might suck tho

If one of the minions just throws and doesn’t try

Everyone is outted

[fathom horizon]

imo typh looks like a minigame than an actual demon

[noble vector]

Well

The point of a lot of demons is that they’re like their own game modes

[fathom horizon]

the other demons change the way you want to play

lleech encourages slinging yourself to the gallows

[noble vector]

Well typhon does too

[fathom horizon]

does it?

[noble vector]

Not every playstyle has to be as drastic as that though

[fathom horizon]

it just seems like you need to find a minion and boom you found em all

[noble vector]

Typhon you almost want to start sacrificing your own team for that reason

Anything to break up the chain

[fathom horizon]

alright

[noble vector]

Having an extra minion in play is a big boon as well

Lots more misinformation in the town

[fathom horizon]

yeah extra minion is insane

[noble vector]

Also Typhon being on script changes how every single player is gonna think about the match

[fathom horizon]

i see

welp ill just wait for some official scripts

see hows it like

[noble vector]

If a typhon is in play or not it makes a big difference

Yeah

[fathom horizon]

speakin of scripts i am homebrewing a script based off phantom rose

its going fun

just need to make the art

only the demons and 1 minion got icons

[noble vector]

Oh my gosh lul

Gambler is a demon now ? 😨

[fathom horizon]

real

but yeah that was an accidental coincidence

btw do you got any idea how to balance feint(outsider)

Your alive neighbors might register as an evil character. If you are mad that you are Feint and die, publicly choose a player. If good, they are drunk.

[noble vector]

It looks fine to me

[fathom horizon]

u sure? something about it dont seem right to me

idk what

[noble vector]

I think the issue is

You can’t really fake claim it very well

Unless evils spawn together

Which does happen ofc but yanno

You wouldn’t get much mileage out of claiming it

[fathom horizon]

good point yeah

hm

[noble vector]

Also it’s technically similar to Sweetheart but

I think it’s different enough

And more interesting to be

Sweetheart is kinda boring

Also I’d word it as

Your alive neighbours might register as evil. When you die, publicly choose a player; if they are good and you were mad you were the feint, they are Drunk.

[fathom horizon]

alright thanks nuggy, ill figure out how to make it more bluffable

i think the other roles are in a good state outside of fortify but ill figure something out for that

[fathom rock]

Wouldn't it be better to make it a bit more ND-ish?

Your living neighbouring townsfolk might register as an evil character?

Accounting for the case where their neighbours actually are evil?

[fathom horizon]

i mean the evil neighbors already register as evil so nothing changes

[austere gulch]

It’s two unrelated abilities in one

That’s the issue

Roles shouldn’t do more than one thing

[fathom horizon]

well do ya got some ideas on how to make an outsider that spreads misinfo?

[loud nexus]

Neutral Enchanter

[noble vector]

I mean I suppose the idea is that you have an incentive to not open claim

If you don’t you can mitigate the deception somewhat

If you do open claim though you can cause even more misinformation with drunkenness

[pliant bloom]

Sweetcluspath

is what I see it as

[cobalt flume]

Me if I gaf

[scarlet cipher]

Sure sure

[exotic cape]

Fang Gu

[quasi moss]

yes?

[noble vector]

Omg I love fang Gu

Tbf tho Vampire is probably more like Fang Gu

Since this you’re replacing them not changing them to an SK

[vocal heron]

wait yea doesnt this kinda become redundant with the new Vampire

[noble vector]

Uhhh no

What

Vampire is its own thing

It’s still like a faction

[vocal heron]

this rework still has the issue of just

not working with VC games

like

at all

-# what are you gonna do? imitate who you kill in VC?

[kindred leaf]

how many tos2 games even take place over voice

[vocal heron]

some

at least 1

[noble vector]

Very few

[vocal heron]

and that single one is a well known one

[noble vector]

Chilled’s group does to be fair

[vocal heron]

thats the single one

and they use Serial Killer quite often

[noble vector]

But they can ban SK or just play over text and put a conf SK in

[woven schooner]

would be fun

as long as everyone in the VC bully the mayor if tey reveal

[kindred leaf]

with how chaotic tos2 can get i feel like it would just devolve into people talking over one another

[woven schooner]

do a talking stick system

[brazen geode]

This sk rework is cool ngl

[austere gulch]

News flash

ToS2 is not a VC game

[icy jewel]

man i thought tos was vc /j

[cold plover]

I genuinely do think they will do this in VC games lol
they can have the imitated person talk and try and win as SK

(once they figure out how it works)

[icy jewel]

you cant magically change your voice to whoever you disguise as i think

[scarlet cipher]

Another update where we're still stuck with bloodlust sk

[pallid portal]

I did not want to delay the update any longer tbh

It was like 3 months since last update

[noble vector]

I genuinely forgot about some of the things that were being added LUL

So it was a much bigger update than I expected

Like the Necro and Retri stuff I forgot about

[merry vortex]

what happens if SK disguises as coven?

do they just

know who the sk is

[noble vector]

Yep

Well I assume that they’d still see the player as “coven”

Similar to if a PMer reveal changes

But the coven member would suddenly stop talkin or anything

So they’d know

[tight pier]

If it’s anything like ToL, yeah coven don’t immediately know but will probably figure it out when that coven goes silent and doesn’t send in actions

[austere gulch]

Another update where we're still suck with shitty Wildling

[austere gulch]

It was only four changes tbh

Balance wise

[merry vortex]

ToL?

[icy jewel]

Throne of Lies

[quasi moss]

Town of Losers

[brazen geode]

This would be very interesting

Would also be a good remplacement for arso in the vamp mode

[merry vortex]

what if sk could communicate with the team at night

and knew which team they were talking to

but couldnt see them talking

and couldnt see their actions

and didnt know who else was on the team

im sure meta would just be checking on the status of your teammates

but still interesting as long as people dont know there is an sk

[icy jewel]

would require secret killers

iirc it flips your body as a sk kill

[merry vortex]

true

unless:

sk decides to stay hidden

and commit to stealing an identity

of a coven/apoc

[icy jewel]

yeah

[merry vortex]

also it says you can choose how you die

im p sure

[icy jewel]

based on what nuggy reacted i think it flips as an SK kill

[merry vortex]

react?

[icy jewel]

this message has a thumbs up

so

educational guess

[noble vector]

The lil thumbs up reactions

[merry vortex]

nuggy

i dont wanna be a nerd

but wheres ur poorf