Serial Killer Rework

[pliant bloom]

a 12.5% wr vs a 33% wr is marginally different from one another

current sk sucks cause it has 0 control over what it does lol

[clever halo]

Precisely.

[pliant bloom]

for all you know you're killing 3 out of the 5 townies left alive and now the 3 coven just lynch you

[vocal heron]

well All Any win stats dont really matter, win stats matter in actually balanced lists.

Shroud never wins.

Rolled Shroud? Very high chance you lose.

[pliant bloom]

you just used all any as an argument for how shroud was bad

what?

[vocal heron]

If Shroud can only win in All Any, thats a problem.

[alpine patio]

I wouldnt trust those stats tbh

[pliant bloom]

the same can be said for SK and you lose even worse

[pliant bloom]

those stats are over a like 500 game spread for vanilla all any

[alpine patio]

1. it's taa

[pliant bloom]

and I'm pretty sure I can just ask tuba for the amount of games shroud/SK/ww was rolled

[alpine patio]

2. Nuggy said it was 200

which is not nearly enough

[pliant bloom]

ok so blame the fact people have no competitive mode in rotation

[vocal heron]

meh

[pliant bloom]

200 is plenty enough what

[vocal heron]

completely against this rework for SK

[alpine patio]

no it isnt

200 games isnt large enough for accurate results

[vocal heron]

if this gets added, gives me more of a reason to not play BTOS2

[pliant bloom]

it's a general gauge

[cold plover]

how many is then

[pliant bloom]

how about you go and record 500 games

and see that when the stats aren't that drastically different

[alpine patio]

like chilly said Id say 500

[pliant bloom]

you can tell us

[pliant bloom]

tuba can legit just pull up all time taa games though

[cold plover]

in vanilla (where nks are unchanged) shroud + ww were the strongest

[pliant bloom]

and I'm pretty sure it will be nearly the exact same

[cold plover]

sk was the weakest

[clever halo]

Because your own toolkit actively works against you, yes.

[alpine patio]

okay lets be clear, Im not arguing that sk isnt weak/we shouldnt be reworking it

[clever halo]

Me when the one time I get a rampage hit off it just completely lopsides the game and Pandora sacrifice me

[vocal heron]

I actually remember being in a Shroud game.
The existence of the Shroud was known, but the Shroud never actually killed anyone.
They always hit defense.

[clever halo]

Welcome to AA, the mode sucks.

[pliant bloom]

me when I kill all of the town and now there's a large buff guy, some soul reaper guy, and a dying starved corpse ready to murder me

[vocal heron]

it was a low evil match

[kindred leaf]

me when i get bloodlust but i only hit one person and now i'm back to being dogshit

[vocal heron]

most of it was town

[pliant bloom]

literaly

LOL

sk is actually only "good" when you're killing 2 people a night

[vocal heron]

if you kill someone with bloodlust, you keep the bloodlust interestingly

[pliant bloom]

if that doesn't happen it is legit just such a terrible role

[kindred leaf]

me when i get countered by:

• every other NK
• every TP
• potion master
• redirection

[pliant bloom]

I'm pretty sure thats just statistically wrong but alright

[cold plover]

loonie I think you are the only person in this thread who likes bloodlust

[vocal heron]

im not saying I like bloodlust

its just better than this

[kindred leaf]

i'm saying mainly that even if you plan out your kills, there are multiple potential caveats

[pliant bloom]

shroud has these problems but it's less extreme because you don't really shroud tps

[pliant bloom]

exactly

arso and shroud barely have this problem and ww at least has the benefit of always being a rampage

[cold plover]

shroud can just ignore all the TPs lol

[kindred leaf]

me when i play perfectly but i get fucked over by
checks notes
the video game

[alpine patio]

honestly I think shroud and arso just have that high of wrs cause they dont kill dupes

[vocal heron]

thats called giving it Unstoppable Attack

[alpine patio]

it would be closer if they did

[cold plover]

it alr can ignore the TP

with what it has

[vocal heron]

it cant

it just bypasses Trapper and BG (kinda)

[kindred leaf]

not really

if you shroud a cleric you still hit barrier

it might bypass crus? i'm unsure

[austere gulch]

You do bypass Crusader

[cold plover]

well you kill oracle
you kill bg/trapper
no clue what happens with crus? probably bypass
Cleric stops you

[vocal heron]

in vanilla, it doesnt
in btos2, i think it does?

[cold plover]

so 4/5 TP you ignore

[austere gulch]

Cleric is the only TP which stops Shroud

[cold plover]

a p good role!

[kindred leaf]

ah

[pliant bloom]

objectively wrong on Arso but okay

[pliant bloom]

^

[kindred leaf]

so it does get around most TPs

[pliant bloom]

bg kills themselves

trapper does as well

[clever halo]

If you're using your power that day, sure.

[alpine patio]

okay yeah but like arso has a fail safe :/

[pliant bloom]

I think you bypass crus

[kindred leaf]

does invest find murder on shrouded players?

[alpine patio]

they literally know if another arso douses them

[pliant bloom]

and oracle being shrouded kills them

[austere gulch]

There's no reason not to visit every night as Cleric

[pliant bloom]

yes

[austere gulch]

And if you self Barrier

[pliant bloom]

they're performing the kill

[austere gulch]

You save yourself anyway

[clever halo]

No I mean Shrouding vs Killing.

[kindred leaf]

damn shroud actually fucks

[austere gulch]

Sure then

That's what we're talking about

[pliant bloom]

you can still get ignited

[kindred leaf]

this role is... good????

[pliant bloom]

but okay

[vocal heron]

Oracle nerf: They visit all players that they protect, but cant be seen by anything other than Shroud

[pliant bloom]

shroud is a good role that suffers from the game state being too fast

[kindred leaf]

i mean. they did add the clean mechanic

[pliant bloom]

same with arso

[cold plover]

it always was
it just sucks bc of how op rit is

[austere gulch]

Replace "Shroud" with any NK

And this statement is still accurate

[alpine patio]

youre arguing literal semantics, Im not sure what your point is other than just saying "youre wrong" because an arso igniting an arso isnt common

[pliant bloom]

unfortunately

[vocal heron]

arso is actually surprisingly easy to win as compared to other NKs

[pliant bloom]

brother arso dousing another Arso means you cannot ignite or douse for another night

because you have to clean yourself off

both of you can die in that time

[alpine patio]

which is better than a ww rampaging a ww or an sk rampaging an sk

[vocal heron]

yea that doesnt cause issues, if anything it actually helps arsonists know they have a buddy

[kindred leaf]

i've won an arsonist game where me and the other arso doused each other night 1 and started coordinating

[pliant bloom]

that's because they HAVE NO CONTROL

????

like what

[pliant bloom]

in the middle game this is time wasted not being able to kill 6 players immediately

[kindred leaf]

i still vote for werewolf gaining live feed of their scent track targets so they know where to rampage

werewolf having tracker abilities does literally fucking nothing for the role

[pliant bloom]

I don't think you can have it actively update ingame

would have to ask tuba

[alpine patio]

you've twisted my point from this to whatever the fuck you think im saying

[kindred leaf]

damn really?

SK doesn't typically kill dupes but there's no way of knowing it's another SK

[pliant bloom]

I'm saying even for tuba to code stop being an ass

[kindred leaf]

???

[pliant bloom]

you're saying that because shroud and arso have control over who they kill or are physically incapable of killing each other they win more

that is exactly what you're saying

[vocal heron]

Give it this
#1188727072680583238

[pliant bloom]

seemed sarcastic

[kindred leaf]

i was genuienly disappointed

[pliant bloom]

I don't think responding "damn really" to anything doesn't sound sarcastic

then mb

[alpine patio]

so what point are you making by saying this then

[pliant bloom]

they kill each other because they don't control who they kill

what part of that don't you understand

[kindred leaf]

arso is the only NK with the ability to find teammates

[alpine patio]

okay how does that statement detract from what I said in any way

[cold plover]

shroud can shroud another shroud

ww can track

[kindred leaf]

which does.... what exactly?

[pliant bloom]

your point is that if Arso and shroud could kill each other they'd be as bad as ww/sk

which just isn't true because they don't even spawn in bulk often

[alpine patio]

no

I said the wrs would be closer

[pliant bloom]

we can make all NK unique and they will be in the exact same spot

[cold plover]

someone gets killed by 2 shrouds
(idk)
anyway ww can track another ww right

[pliant bloom]

so they would be worse because of in fighting

[kindred leaf]

and sure, this is true, but that's like. the only legitimate application of scent track

[alpine patio]

if shrouds and arsos could kill each other the wrs would be closer in taa

[pliant bloom]

"the wrs would be closer"

[alpine patio]

yeah thats exactly what I said

[pliant bloom]

which means shroud and arso wr would go down

[cold plover]

yeah shroud is the most consistent NK

[pliant bloom]

guess what that means

[cold plover]

lol

[pliant bloom]

the role is worse

[alpine patio]

yes it doesnt mean I think theyd be as bad as ww or sk rn

[pliant bloom]

the closest the wrs can get without them being considered nearly the same is like 12.5% to 20%

and even then that's barely a difference

that's what maybe 5 more games won

[alpine patio]

ww and sk had a massive diff in wrs

lemme check

[pliant bloom]

they're both at 12.5%

[alpine patio]

okay yeah it was not as big as I thought

it was just 2%

[austere gulch]

Scent Track would be better if it was replaced with Sense

ngl

[kindred leaf]

well yeah that's what my rework did

lmao

[pliant bloom]

the game would be better if all NK were on the power level of arso with utility equal to that of a coven

or if we just nerfed cov

[kindred leaf]

arsonist is a big nuke that can go undetected for an entire game
werewolf (with my rework) can prevent itself from being outed by destroying wills and follow targets to get massive rampages
shroud can fuck over most open claiming TPs and TIs by shrouding
sk

[cobalt flume]

Then don't get mad

Serial Killer and Werewolf are both predictable when it comes to their rampage, the only difference is that Werewolf's rampage mode is more consistent whereas Serial Killer's KPN is more consistent

They're both pretty weak but Serial Killer isn't as weak as Werewolf for that reason

[austere gulch]

Yeah
I've grown to like your rework

[cobalt flume]

I haven't seen their rework

[alpine patio]

targets sniffed by wws get killed+will destroyed if they visit ww on full moon nights

[cobalt flume]

Oh

Uhm

[alpine patio]

actually wait

wrong person I think

[cobalt flume]

Oh

[alpine patio]

@kindred leaf what was your rework

I was thinking of someone else's rework

[cobalt flume]

I couldn't find it in the list

I found mine and then like 4 of someone else's

[kindred leaf]

i only posted it in the CT server

hold on

Werewolf

Neutral Killing
⚔️Powerful attack
🛡️Basic defense

Attack (🌙♾️ Only on Full Moon nights): Deal a Powerful Rampaging attack to your target.

Scent Track (🌙♾️): Track your target, learning where they're planning to go in real time every night. Scent Track stays until your target dies.

Attributes:

• On Full Moon nights, you may choose to target yourself, rampaging at home. Anyone who visits you will be dealt a Powerful attack and have their will destroyed.

if it's true that live tracking isn't possible, then this isn't applicable

[cobalt flume]

Yeah it's kind of average for me

It can potentially make Rampage more consistent

But I feel like there's gonna be a meta where people switch at the last second

I don't really think it makes the role much more consistent outside of that

[kindred leaf]

it's something at least

it also makes rampaging at home vaguely more desirable

since right now it just outs you as werewolf if you do

[cobalt flume]

I'm still not really a fan of it

I think it's interesting but that's it

[kindred leaf]

werewolf would need a full overhaul to work imo but i'm not really qualified to make that so

[cobalt flume]

I made one where it's more different

#1205288267906293790 message

[restive kite]

why not powerful attack, i mean without rampage yeah, but what's the point of a neutral killing that just attacks like a basic coven

it's called neutral killing for a reason

[pallid portal]

powerful attack only when jumping

i think

switching bodies

[restive kite]

oh

so the disguising and faking ur death kind of works like a reverse forger right

self forging

[austere gulch]

It’s going to inherent the same midnight mechanic as Wildling

At least, that’s how it works on CTS™️

[restive kite]

so amnesiac but always evil

[pliant bloom]

yes

[pliant bloom]

what are you talking about

[austere gulch]

Hi
It is me

Mr. Qualified to make a WW overhaul

[restive kite]

in tos 1 amnesiacs remembering the winning faction in the last moment

so sk just faking their death in the end once theyre sussed

[pliant bloom]

not really

[austere gulch]

not really

[pallid portal]

likely another stats stream soon

[austere gulch]

Yeah

[pallid portal]

its been a month think some gamemodes we have way more samplesize

[pliant bloom]

nice

[pallid portal]

and some new gamemodes we did not have enough data prior

like att/hunt

which we do now

[cobalt flume]

Oh

Then people would know you exist

And at that point they'd still stay home

[austere gulch]

No

Read

Wildling got changed again

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1264608443378171924

Sense is silent now

[cobalt flume]

Oh

Still

Once people are aware that you exist they will just stay home

[austere gulch]

Good for you

You’ve just shut down every threat to your existence

Still a huge benefit

[cobalt flume]

In exchange of your KPN still being what it was

It slows Werewolf down pretty effectively

The only people reliably visiting are killers which doesn't do anything towards your kill output

[twin nest]

He does not like when the shoe fits!

[restive kite]

i think shroud should shroud cause it is a shroud

and lookout looks

out

[dire pagoda]

and medusa medus

[kindred leaf]

but what if lookout looked within

[dire pagoda]

voodoo master voodoo masts

[cunning nacelle]

...And now I remember why I stopped discussing role balance here. This is literally asinine, my disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.

I'm not even gonna be gunning for the Jest win, just sick a Vig on me, I'm done.

[fathom horizon]

uh who what

[cunning nacelle]

Not you, don't worry cheese wheel. 👍 Honestly, after all of the flummery that I've seen, you're comforting to see again.

It's all of the arguing over semantics and sometimes, just back handed insults.

[fathom horizon]

ah

[noble vector]

I think this role suggestion is honestly representative of the sickness at the core of our world 😔

[loud nexus]

teams

[stiff hatch]

So now it’s SK

[restive kite]

sk gaming

[cobalt flume]

What I do

[cunning nacelle]

Not you, just some of the general chats in here seem unnecessarily harsh...mainly the thing with Shroud.

I get "no lore balancing", but it's a tarnation ghost, it should do tarnation ghost things.

[noble vector]

Tbh I think this server has calmed down a bit now compared to a few months ago

[neat meadow]

What happens if you disguise as a coven member

[noble vector]

They will see their coven member just go dead silent and not choose anything

Will be pretty obvious but

Don't choose coven I spose

[cobalt flume]

Oh most people are upset with me when I say my opinions so I'm kind of used to it

[clever halo]

I do not think anyone to my knowledge has a genuine problem with you but a lot of your balancing opinions are objectively wrong. Or at least just not prioritizing what should be looked at more closely.

Shroud should do ghost things though, that is true! But it's better that Serial Killer does sneaky things than nobody do any things.

[cobalt flume]

Oop

Well

I can see why people want it on Shroud

Since Shroud currently is the more deceptive Neutral Killing

But Shroud genuinely doesn't need it

[noble vector]

Shroud doesn’t need any changes tbf

Maybe some buffs but nothing huge

Certainly does not need a rework imo

[clever halo]

Shroud is better designed right now than Serial Killer, no question. Both sides definitely have some amount of merit to it, but at the end of the day, I've always been saying that it's a pointless discussion after the post named got changed. We are either rolling or not, and I'd rather roll. Bloodlust has to go immediately.

[cobalt flume]

Right

If this gets added I genuinely don't care that much

But I don't think it's enough

[clever halo]

I care. If it's not enough for SK, we'll see that and Tuba can make further changes, or even rework it again. It's always possible.

What matters is that the Disguise mechanic would mean bloodlust is gone FOREVER. Tuba would never willingly make the game worse, so I don't think he'd go back to bloodlust ever.

Gradual improvement is always better than people shouting down everything Tuba and Curt try to do. Some people will always attempt to do that, and they will simply need to be dragged, screaming, into a better game. I'm totally fine with that.

[cobalt flume]

That's like not what I said but sure

[cunning nacelle]

Me being afk in all of the discussions, waiting for someone to try and up me:

[unkempt shadow]

This reeks as NK CS.

My problem with this also is: What is the message for your “Death”? Is it “Killed by a Serial Killer”?

All kills have their associated kill messages like coven, NK, TK, and TP.

If the corpse was autopsied by a coroner who would have killed the corpse?

[winter escarp]

Probably SK

So it wouldn't be totally invisible

[unkempt shadow]

that’s pointless though and makes the rework useless. If they were coven, the coven would know “SK is PMER.”

[winter escarp]

IIRC someone pointed that out and there is a potential idea to prevent non-town from being disguised.

Also the SK dies to SK, not the player they're disguising as, so that's a moot point

[unkempt shadow]

If it’s N2 and someone dies to SK it outs “Oh 15 died to SK, therefore they are the SK.

This is Cursed Soul

[winter escarp]

What?

X is SK
X uses Disguise on Y
The graveyard has X dead to SK

That doesn't out Y as the new SK

[unkempt shadow]

I am 13, I disguise as 14, My will and my chat patterns match 13.

Wills are also an issue

[winter escarp]

You get their will

The rest you gotta socially deduce

[fervent junco]

welcome back disguiser

[barren creek]

the good old days when people write x The (role) because of old disguiser

now its just force of habit for me

[unkempt shadow]

Same.

[unkempt shadow]

Disconnections are another concern.

If a dead disguise disconnects would cause problems.

This is going to be a development nightmare too.

Skins and pets would need to update on identity theft

[pallid portal]

the dead disguise will show as your old name....

[unkempt shadow]

Let’s say I am originally #15 but I kill and disguise as #8.

If the actual #8 disconnects will it say “15 has disconnected” or will it say “8 has disconnected”?

[pallid portal]

it will say 15 has disconnected

because 15 is shown as dead in graveyard

[cobalt flume]

That's kind of dumb

[winter escarp]

👍

[cobalt flume]

That's dumb too

[noble vector]

Everyone is banned

[whole grove]

[patent rapids]

https://tenor.com/view/fade-away-oooooooooooo-aga-emoji-crumble-gif-20008708

[fathom horizon]

untrue i am stupid

i am not banned

[patent rapids]

You are "'im an evil mastermind of average intelligence'"

[pallid portal]

https://tenor.com/view/drifting-bulldozer-coming-on-my-way-sliding-into-dms-hello-there-gif-13568079

[graceful stratus]

If someone’s fake claim is THAT good, there is no reason you shouldn’t be able to steal it. You just might not get their will.

[fathom horizon]

as much as i like nk tools affecting coven i might have to disagree with sk stealing coven bodies

it basically just outs sk to cov(they know that their teammy got bodystolen)

[pallid portal]

can just like fail

if attacking coven or apoc

reverts to a regular attack

if thats too much of a problem

[languid mauve]

would the sk see the coven teamates? i assume not

[pallid portal]

no but coven would know

they were jumped into

bc that player would not join the night chat

[languid mauve]

if the sk and enchanter both kill someone

what forge would get priority

[pallid portal]

i think in that case sk wouldnt jump just regular attack

so enchanrter

[languid mauve]

does this button replace caution?

[whole grove]

Would it just block all coven members from being disguised or is it possible to make it "if the coven member is solo, you still jump"

[pallid portal]

it is possible

if solo it can work

[languid mauve]

if u steal someones identity do you lose the blood u should have?

and tresspassing#

[pallid portal]

for that night you jump , TIs will get the result of your target

not you

however the next night you will show as murder

etc

[languid mauve]

i think being forced to use your 1 powerfull attack on a steal makes it harder for sk to deal with immunes. and also means that sk has simmilar killing power to shroud

[pallid portal]

all any problem really lol

[languid mauve]

if the necro were to use the sk corpse that was forged what would happen?

[lone yoke]

@languid mauve has leveled up! (0 ➜ 1)

[fathom horizon]

stabby

same with ret raising a forged townie

will use its actual ability if its also town and raisable

[languid mauve]

so it would use sk even tho sk aint dead?

maybe it should be corpse missing

makes sense as the sk "faked their death" so there would be no body to use

also does the sk choose how they die?

[scarlet cipher]

Lore of this rework: sk goes to college to learn how to draw realistic art
So after getting their degree in art they can make and use realistic masks that can fool everyone (similar to the spy from tf2) so when they fake their death they kill their target and put a mask on the corpse to look like them and then wear a mask to look like their victim, effectively switching places with them

[kindred leaf]

i mean i assumed the SK would just wear their target as a skin suit

[alpine patio]

realistically the sk would make a mold out of the victims face and then use makeup to disguise other inconsistencies

[scarlet cipher]

I like the mask & swap idea more

[whole grove]

skinwalking is slightly horrifying

[scarlet cipher]

True true

[languid mauve]

if 2 sks used it on eacother would both of them die or both get basic attacked

[noble vector]

It depends on what the final attack power of Disguise is, since that's still being debated

If it's only basic, they both survive and neither can jump
If it's powerful, then they both die yeah

[languid mauve]

but if a sk were to die while using the ability the disguise dosent work right?

[noble vector]

correct

If the SK or their digsuise target dies, they do not disguise

if their disguise target dies to someone other than the SK of course

[languid mauve]

so if the disguise fails does the powerfull attack go out still?

[noble vector]

Good question, I am not sure. I would assume so

You don't lose your charge if disguise fails though

[languid mauve]

if so 2 sks hitting eachother would cause both of them to die denying their ability but then they wouldnt die ect

[noble vector]

Oh yeah that would be a paradox

They would have to still powerful attack then

[languid mauve]

alrighty just curious thanks for answering

[noble vector]

No problemo

[clever halo]

I like this idea.

9/10 disguising as an Apoc or Coven means you are cooked tomorrow.

Apocalypse are not immune.

[languid mauve]

I fogor that they changed it in btos

ur compltetely right srry

[clever halo]

It's fine.

[neat meadow]

Berserker is

[clever halo]

Yeah, but so is Coven Leader.

We don't go around saying "Coven is immune".

Coven Leader, whoever the PM is on, Berserker, and Horsemen are exceptions to a rule, it's not that deep.

[languid mauve]

do pariahs win when dead?

[clever halo]

Yes.

This grants them the ability to

A: Actually work with Arsonist
B: Actually work with Apocalypse and Pandora
C: Make sacrificial plays like courting yourself on Baker day. Which is important not to leave out.

[neat meadow]

Neutral Pariah gaming fr

[cold plover]

Coming back to that shroud idea where u choose who is killed while shrouding

I dislike it now

It completely cripples shroud's ability to counter all TP

[tight pier]

Not really

Actually no it just objectively does not do this

[cold plover]

hear me out

shroud counters TP by shrouding them and learning who the tplo caller is and if they the TP is

you take away this its weaker

[whole grove]

"You learn who the TPLO caller is"
The public TPLO call:

[tight pier]

Thats
No
That’s a losing interaction for the shroud

Lmao

[cold plover]

bad wording

[fathom horizon]

yeah knowing who tp is doesnt help shroud

since it has to waste its kill

[cold plover]

mmm

[fathom horizon]

and doesnt even get affected by them beyond that

you already know who tp want to go on

or at least get a good idea

[tight pier]

And “force target player to kill another” retains all of the BG/Trapper/Crusader interactions

So

[whole grove]

You don't know who the BG is protecting though so you can no longer just yeet yourself onto the BG/Trapper and make them suicide

[tight pier]

Yeah but that unironically doesn’t help you that much

Still 1 kill it just comes out funny

Plus now its much easier to throw E.G, a seer, into the BG and hit that

[whole grove]

true

also its funny to throw the mayor into the vet

[restive kite]

Bring transporter back...

[restive kite]

that'd work with transporter

imagine transporter in tt

tt mayor reveals

and coven thinks they got maj till

oops!

transporter made coven kill their tt!

gasp!!!

transporter clutch!

[scarlet cipher]

NP/NS transporter would go hard
Probably NP

[whole grove]

Quote from Curtis: Neutral. Pariah. Transporter. Is. Dogshit. (that's how I remember it, it was an audi clip)

[scarlet cipher]

Common Curtis L

[restive kite]

You know what's dogshit

their balancing

especially on prosecutor

invest is fine im married to that rework

!!

[icy jewel]

invest is not fine

[restive kite]

how

[scarlet cipher]

You know who else is shit?

[icy jewel]

it still steals coroner's niche

[restive kite]

YOUR MOMMA

[pallid portal]

thats such a minor issue compared to the previous invest

[restive kite]

Oh shit tuba is hjere

[scarlet cipher]

Tuba has been here a while

[icy jewel]

its 1/2 of the issue of old invest

[whole grove]

omg tuba is the OP of this post

😱

[restive kite]

im curtis disguised as this random guy dont worry

[pallid portal]

isnt it easier to solve now

[icy jewel]

yes

[restive kite]

disguiser role

tuba banshee buff when

[whole grove]

Curtis is SK

[pallid portal]

[restive kite]

.

[whole grove]

Just give it rampage ez

[scarlet cipher]

Eh?

[restive kite]

whenever devs are suggested something they disappear from the chat

[noble vector]

I honestly think coroner is the problem here, not invest

[whole grove]

Merge them

[noble vector]

Invest is fine as is honestly

Losing blood would mean buffing it tbh

Based on the ideas I have seen

And Invest is already on the stronger side as it is now

[cold plover]

Coroner

[noble vector]

I genuinely think Coroner is just fundementally a bad concept

[patent rapids]

he is the best

concept

[noble vector]

There is no need for a death related TI when the majority of information you can get from death is already given for free

[scarlet cipher]

It's strength is immunity to illusion & enchant

[noble vector]

It basically just has death as a pre-requisite to even begin working

[noble vector]

That's a bandaid fix

[scarlet cipher]

You're not wrong

[noble vector]

Which never got removed cos it never got buffed

[icy jewel]

that can be changed

[patent rapids]

Coroner gives alot of info ;-;

[restive kite]

i think coroner should be able to check 3 people on day and autopsy at night

!!!!

[patent rapids]

Make Coro kill non-Town N1

[noble vector]

It can't even begin to get info until N2 at the earliest, and even then it can get 0 info if nobody dies
And also the info it does get isn't that good at actually finding out who is good and evil

[cold plover]

isn't this an sk thread

[restive kite]

supposedly like if ure an inspector

[whole grove]

yes

[noble vector]

Conversations pop up all over the show tbf

[winter escarp]

Coro's Autopsy is overhauled to kill people

[noble vector]

I don't tell people YOU CAN ONLY DISCUSS THIS IN THIS THREAD GRR!

[patent rapids]

Gives what coven is present.
If someone was framed by Shroud.

[restive kite]

nuggy have u seen my terraria builds

[noble vector]

[cold plover]

Now we're here, how does Coroner work with this rework

[icy jewel]

what if instead they visited someone and autospied an alive person on accident

[cold plover]

:)

[icy jewel]

killing them

[whole grove]

You can go off topic as long as it isn't in the official server

[restive kite]

erm, tt coroner finds the vigilante or vet!!!

[icy jewel]

should be tied to the same player

[restive kite]

(they'll out themselves at day anyways)

[tight pier]

Solution: remove the free info- shot

[icy jewel]

because you are still you

and its tied to players

[restive kite]

hey lagspikes did u see my terraria builds in #media heheeheheheh

[icy jewel]

I didn't

I don't check that channel

[scarlet cipher]

My only suggestion for coroner is let them prepare people for autopsy and it stay on that person until they die and which the corpse is automatically autopsied when night comes meaning if 2 people die and 1 of them was prepared for an autopsy in advanced, both will be autopsy'd at the start of the night

[restive kite]

what if u do

[scarlet cipher]

I had an idea for a buff a long time ago that would let coroner get the corpse's last night info but modded spy can already do that

[patent rapids]

Also if Jinx is CK in TT this gives Town option to VFR.

[icy jewel]

giving coroner info on dead players would have made more sense

than spy

[noble vector]

True

[icy jewel]

because uh

[noble vector]

Spy gets no value from it really

But I still don't like coroner

[scarlet cipher]

I can see it working on both

[icy jewel]

theres this medical procedure where you open someones eyes after death and you can see what they saw

[noble vector]

It was a bad idea from the start

GRR!

[icy jewel]

and lore

!

[winter escarp]

I remember making a "Coroner with a Gun" suggestion a while back. It should be that :D

[icy jewel]

forgot what its called

[icy jewel]

Bonesaw works too!

[patent rapids]

Honestly A TI that can confirm someone as Not CK/NK/Bers or whatever Gives alot of info ;-;

[scarlet cipher]

I actually got useful from in a tt game where I got the berserker lynched because they killed the psy on n2 when I bugged them
The funny part was I was the tt and just went with it despite my first time seeing it in action
Well it worked out for me since no one question me for possibly being the tt

[icy jewel]

optogram

!

thats what its called

[winter escarp]

True! But it was called Avenger and instead of Autopsy it was Avenge and instead of Examine it was a three charge move called Requite

[icy jewel]

isnt that the TK you made

[austere gulch]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1266063699760775230

[winter escarp]

Yeah

[lone yoke]

@winter escarp has leveled up! (18 ➜ 19)

[noble vector]

CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[scarlet cipher]

Nice (:

[quasi moss]

i have 2 words for you:

||Look||

||Out||

[whole grove]

asral visit gaming

[austere gulch]

Believe it or not there was actually a reason for that change

Apparently it was to make LOs not confirm other LOs

[quasi moss]

oh

i thought it was so roles like Ambusher couldnt counter it

all rampaging roles

[kindred leaf]

yeah and the lookout changes sucked so they don't exist in modded

[noble vector]

Well that's why Camoflauge is there instead of astral

[austere gulch]

Wildling not being Camoflauged defeats the whole purpose

[noble vector]

myeah true

Well wildling was never astral anyway right?

I guess it was at launch

[austere gulch]

It was never after the rework

[austere gulch]

Say

Is there any reason for this role to be roleblock immune

It has a new gimmick now
Why shaft Tavern Keeper even further

[whole grove]

Tuba said on stream that it was basically just a leftover

[austere gulch]

Then it should be removed

Smh

Give Tav and Pois some love

[fathom horizon]

but why

sk needs all the help it can get

i think all neuts should have blanket disruption immunity

[teal peak]

that sort of means that Tav, like Sheriff, becomes absolutely useless the second the last coven is out, and gives coven no defense when on a Neutrals vs Coven battle.

[loud nexus]

I mean NKs already have Basic Defence

coven can't kill them without Conj/Rit

[signal wagon]

noose

[loud nexus]

yes that is their main way of dealing with NKs

[fathom horizon]

covens sole way of fighting neuts should be the noose

also bro towns winning if all covens dead and its just nk

why do they need to bully them more

[signal wagon]

-# the arsonist in question

[loud nexus]

realistically it'd only really matter if either
it's 2 town vs the NK after all the coven are gone
last NK is Arso with everyone doused and tav can't rb them

[noble vector]

I think NKs REALLY suffer to tav and pois

Like, it kinda cripples them

If we had secret killers though maybe not as much

Though, with nobody claiming protected the chances your Roleblock hit the NK is still high if there’s one less kill

Coven can actually back each other up in that regard

[dire pagoda]

yeah, there's a reason why nks tend to have accomodations for it

although they always seem to have that 1 nk that they just don't care about for some reason

in tos1 it was jugg and in tos2 it's shroud

[noble vector]

Jugg did care about it but nobody cared about Jugg

Shroud I don’t think it’s particularly been an issue for them it’s true

[pliant bloom]

the shroud change idea is pretty similar to what I suggested a while back anyways

also removing sk's killing rbers kinda just makes it a stale role cause arso and ww both have some sort of counter measure for being rbd

and shroud out of all of them is probably the least affected by it

[lusty oyster]

[lusty oyster]

including bounce and control??

i think that's a bit too powerful

[fathom horizon]

i mean it depends on the neuts

i want direct attacking types to bypass/punish em

the stealthers can be vunerable

[lusty oyster]

rogue pericison shot is only crus immune (and SSduh) because it's a unstoppable attack

but their bayonnet stab is not immune

#1270004231012614146

i should remove the "minor buffs" part because the 'minor buffs' acutally make the role fucking good to use

[lusty oyster]

messae nver sent 🥀

no really i don't see it

[lusty oyster]

well i was wasn't thining of "ritualist" or "doomsayer" but really what if we had a NK roleguesser in general

i use concepts as inspiration

not "what if [blank] was [blank]"

don't talk about maigican i deleted that, it was a troll post

[loud nexus]

not bounce I'd say

[lusty oyster]

that is what distruption is

according to @fathom horizon

[lusty oyster]

rb, bounce and control

[loud nexus]

I mean in terms of what they should be immune to

[fathom horizon]

yeah

[lusty oyster]

YOUR MESSAGES ARE NOT SENDING BRO

WHAT THE FUCK

😭

[fathom horizon]

but i forgot bounce exists

[fathom horizon]

ik

it fucking sucks

i hate discord

[lusty oyster]

bro is in fucking discord limbo

😭

[lusty oyster]

ctrl + R

and refresh

please

[fathom horizon]

its not working

[lusty oyster]

fine

task manager

[fathom horizon]

its frozen

[lusty oyster]

force quit

reopen

[fathom horizon]

doing it

[lusty oyster]

you back?

[fathom horizon]

not yet

its still grey

[austere gulch]

Lmao

Rb immunity isn’t “help”

It’s just shafting Tav for no reason

Let Tav do its job

[fathom horizon]

tavs job is fucking up coven

[patent rapids]

And Town

[austere gulch]

No

Tavs job is fucking up evils

If we keep giving NK arbitrary immunities

Than what’s the point of Town having ways to counter them at all

Or them having to play smart to avoid detection

[fathom horizon]

because town has a giant ass noose with their name on it

[austere gulch]

There’s a reason not every NK is Tracker, Tav, Vet, BG, Trap, and Psychic immune

[austere gulch]

Just because town had an advantage doesn’t mean nerfing one role which is already disgustingly weak is the right call

[fathom horizon]

town has tis capable of finding nks if they slip up

[austere gulch]

This is like if we decided town is too strong against NK

So now NK kills can’t be autopsied

It makes no sense

And it just serves to make a weak role weaker

[patent rapids]

Me when seer

[austere gulch]

RB immunity shouldn’t be given out as a buff

Let Tav do its fucking job

Of stopping evils

Stop giving every evil an escape clause

[fathom horizon]

only direct attacking nks should have it

and in some cases they give that stuff up

[austere gulch]

That’s fucking arbitrary as shit

[fathom horizon]

for other abilities

[austere gulch]

Let Tav do its job against killers

[fathom horizon]

its to ensure the direct attackers are consistent

[austere gulch]

Don’t just downgrade it to a non-threat

[austere gulch]

TAVERN KEEPERS WHOLE PURPOSE IS COUNTERING KILLERS

[patent rapids]

Me when A Role that is meant to stop evils doesn't stop evils cause Idk

[austere gulch]

Exactly

This argument is stupid as shit and honestly sounds like a troll argument now

[fathom horizon]

nks aint coven tho

[austere gulch]

Because someone is arguing that a role not being able to do what it was designed to do is balanced

[patent rapids]

Compliance

[fathom horizon]

town should be geared mainly against coven

[austere gulch]

Who fucking cares if NK aren’t coven, they’re still killers

[austere gulch]

SINCE FUCKING WHEN

Are you saying that NK should just be given every immunity under the sun against town

[fathom horizon]

i didnt

[austere gulch]

You seem to just want to promote braindead NK play

[fathom horizon]

tis and tps should still nuke nks

[austere gulch]

But the one role built to counter killers shouldn’t

Yeah

Real sensible

Tav was built to handle killers

Not coven

[fathom horizon]

tav countering killers only is a side effect of a terrible attempt at making a town disrupter

[austere gulch]

You’re just arbitrarily making shit up when you say a universal roleblocker isn’t meant to counter NK

[austere gulch]

Back in mafiascum

Tav was meant to be a NK counter

Because of the factional kill

You do realize that right?

Tav was a counter to solo killers

That was its whole purpose

[patent rapids]

3/4 NKs Already make Tav kill themselfs

LOL

[austere gulch]

And it was interesting because NK could not kill to fool it, or target them early

Now you’re saying we should take that away

[patent rapids]

SK/WW/Arso

They all kill Tav sooner or later

[austere gulch]

Because “tAv iS gEaReD tOwArDs cOvEn”

[patent rapids]

we don't talk about Shroud

[austere gulch]

It’s not

It never fucking was

You’re just arbitrarily making shit up because you’re salty about being rbed as NK

[fathom horizon]

why on earth do the solo fuckers need a role specifically to counter their existence

[fathom horizon]

i said should be

[austere gulch]

IT DOESNT COUNTER THEM

[fathom horizon]

you just said it does

[austere gulch]

YOU CAN NOT KILL AS NK AND WATCH TOWN TEAR THEMSELVES APART ON THE RBED TP

[patent rapids]

They still have a kill ;-;

[fathom horizon]

you said the tav was designed to counter solo killers

[patent rapids]

3/4 NKs kill Tav

[austere gulch]

There’s counterplay

You seem to think that there’s none

Which just proves you’re not thinking smart enough

[fathom horizon]

because the cost is too much

majority is the goal

[austere gulch]

The cost is you get a free fucking lynch

Which is worth two kills

As opposed to one

[fathom horizon]

let the mafia do that for you

[austere gulch]

think before you speak please

[fathom horizon]

ik what the value of a mislynch is

i have nks designed specifically to mislynch

[austere gulch]

We’re talking about base tos2 here

Not your NK

Tav is struggling

[patent rapids]

Tav is only usefull when it's dead (Change my mind)

[austere gulch]

Especially with book passing and arbitrary attack immunity when the killer is an immune coven role

[fathom horizon]

should be

because having like 2 roles(not guaranteed cuz witch/pois shit) as your target pool sucks

[fathom horizon]

took your sweet time

[patent rapids]

Bro is talking to himself smh

[fathom horizon]

discord sucks for me

messages dont send

[austere gulch]

So Tav should be strong against factions with a better winrate

That’s what your argument boils down to

Woooooow

Okay

Let’s make it so that TP, the strongest non-Tpow roles in the game, are bad against roles with low winrate

They now ignore NK

[ocean rampart]

This feels like it's getting a little heated here, maybe it should cool down

[fathom horizon]

thats not what im saying

[austere gulch]

Because “it’s terrible that TP can just stop an NK from killing!!”

[delicate saddle]

shouldn't tk be the strongest

well tp is better for wincons nvm

[fathom horizon]

motherfucking discord

[austere gulch]

It’s exactly what you’re saying

The principle is the same

[fathom horizon]

it aint

[austere gulch]

One role is strong against killers and only killers

Nk are killers

Thus

We should make the role strong against killers not strong against killers

I can tell you’re grasping here

It seems like you just arbitrarily hate what Tav does

[fathom horizon]

why tho

tps want to predict whos getting attacked

[austere gulch]

Which in that case

[fathom horizon]

and scare off attackers

[austere gulch]

Instead of suggesting changes that make it completely unviable and extremely niche

Just fucking remove it

If you hate roleblocking so much

Just advocate for its removal

[fathom horizon]

i hate town roleblocking

[austere gulch]

I don’t hate roleblockimg

I find town roleblockers very interesting role designs

Because unlike many others

I see that there’s counterplay

[fathom horizon]

because only way you know you did something good was by rbing a killer

[patent rapids]

In a game where there is no TP tav is the only saving role for town

[austere gulch]

Or any other loud role

Fuckin hell

Have you ever played Exorcist

In botc

[fathom horizon]

no dude

ive had 2 games

[austere gulch]

Town roleblockers function like Exorcist

It’s a puzzles role

You determine what happened and rule out your blocked player as any of those roles

It’s a fun design that you’re shitting on because again

[patent rapids]

Give nks a roleblocker for Compliance (Fr)

[fathom horizon]

the excorcist cant fucking roleblock nondemons

[austere gulch]

“I HATE roles that can find NK in any way”

Guess what

[fathom horizon]

i dont

[austere gulch]

CORONER can find NK

[patent rapids]

Coro the best

[austere gulch]

Even better than Tav

An NK gets fucked whenever they’re found anyway

So what should the difference be

[fathom horizon]

more reliably, coroner can never be in a state where its useless for town

[austere gulch]

There is none

You’re just grasping

[austere gulch]

Tav should never be in that state either

[fathom horizon]

not to mention

coroner checks book passing

[austere gulch]

Yet you’re saying Tav should be useless if all Coven die

Which is stupid as shit

Your idea of a town roleblocker is just one that’s puny, unreliable, gets no fucking info, and weak

[fathom horizon]

again town might as well have won if thats the case or the nk just nuked everyone

[austere gulch]

That’s something that you can’t possibly expect other people to support

Bye

[fathom horizon]

my idea of a town roleblocker is nonexistent

[austere gulch]

Just admit it then

[fathom horizon]

i did

multiple times

[austere gulch]

No

[delicate saddle]

i don't think Tav is considered weak but I do think it should be able to roleblock NKs

[austere gulch]

What you said was Tav should only counter Coven

Because you were hiding behind a cowardly soft nerf rather than your true belief that Tav should be voided

[fathom horizon]

im not

[austere gulch]

Which proves you don’t design around balance

[fathom horizon]

tav cant be deleted

[austere gulch]

You just design around personal principles of what’s “right”

[fathom horizon]

roles arent getting removed

[austere gulch]

And “just”

[fathom horizon]

for some fucking reason

[austere gulch]

And you’re biased towards NK and biased away from Tav

[fathom horizon]

tf that mean

[austere gulch]

Because you hate town roleblockers

It’s that simple

[fathom horizon]

i hate em cuz their main usecase is against killers and most of the time they dont know if they did something good for town or not

[austere gulch]

It was already niche before book passing became a thing because Coven could get rb immunity from many sources
Now it’s asscheeks because it can’t reliably rule out killers anymore

[patent rapids]

Who else can RB in Town? Jailor?

[austere gulch]

Jailor has a super rb

It doesn’t have to deal with rb immune bullshit

[cold plover]

Crus?

[fathom horizon]

bounce

thats a bounce

different thing

[austere gulch]

Oh you absolutely know

[fathom horizon]

love it

[austere gulch]

I scroll Tavern Keeper

[fathom horizon]

best form of disruption

[cold plover]

tav is my favourite role

[fathom horizon]

ok?

[austere gulch]

I’ve found multiple different VMs, DWs, and Medusas in my life

Just off of roleblock deduction

As much as you hate town roleblockers

[patent rapids]

Tav is my Dream job (An alcoholic) he is just like me FR

[austere gulch]

They’re fun

And interactive

You just can’t see it

[patent rapids]

If no one is silenced then VM is rbed. simply.

[fathom horizon]

temp the only time i ever saw you social read was based on pure bullshit and you were right that they were evil excuse me for not trusting that your roleblock deduction is a strong basis

[austere gulch]

And because you think town roleblockers are dumb because “they’re not interactive”

That’s just you being narrow minded

[patent rapids]

YOu guys are like siblings fighting eachother.

[austere gulch]

Off pure bullshit my ass

Tell me

How many hours of forum mafia do you have

[fathom horizon]

zero

[austere gulch]

How many games have you played

[fathom horizon]

i dont do multiday

[austere gulch]

Exactly

Don’t lecture me on scumreading

When you’ve never played mountainous before

I was right for a reason
That “pure bullshit” you were spewing wouldn’t have appeared from a town aligned player

[delicate saddle]

what the fuck is mountainous

[fathom horizon]

they said you were based on nothing

[austere gulch]

That was false

[fathom horizon]

and even now as i still try to see what you saw

[austere gulch]

I don’t scumread off luck

[fathom horizon]

i still dont see it

[austere gulch]

I’m not a random shooting dep

[austere gulch]

Did you SEE the voting patterns

[fathom horizon]

no but you were lucky as hell

[austere gulch]

Or the D1 communication that lasted an abnormally large amount of time

Or the subtle communications with Akip defending immediately

[fathom horizon]

THAT WAS AFTER YOU DIED AND I FOLLOWED YOUR PUSHA ND EXPOSED THEM

[austere gulch]

Despite having no info on Tox’s alignment

[austere gulch]

I didn’t push Tox until after that

God were you just not paying attention at all

[fathom horizon]

i was

you were fucking confusing

[austere gulch]

I didn’t push Tox until after I died

[austere gulch]

I knew what my logic was

It wasn’t luck

I can tell you that much

[fathom horizon]

no dude you were sus on them from the start

[austere gulch]

I don’t diceroll

I don’t random shoot

[fathom horizon]

and i decided to latch onto you

cuz idk shiet bout botc

[austere gulch]

In mountainous, it’s always better to be suspicious and right than trusted and wrong

If you’re going to push an evil

It’s okay to make yourself look suspicious because a 1f1 is still good for town

Do what must be done

[fathom horizon]

yeah ive played sh and seen/experienced this on apersonal level

[austere gulch]

Anyway

If you can’t see what made me lock in Tox and Akip as an evil pairing

You’re just not looking at the big picture

Tell me

What other players exhibited signs of linkage

Or scumtells more apparent then Tox and Akip

There were none

Hence why I accused them

If there was someone more sus

I’m would have accused them instead

But there was only one real candidate that was acting scummy and softly coordinating

Hence I tunneled

And was right

[fathom horizon]

yeah again dude, they only started hard defending(and thus exposing themselves in hindsight) after you started pushing

[austere gulch]

Exactly

This is why you push as town

I pushed multiple people beforehand

It’s a reaction test used in mountainous

If Luka was here he would know

I pushed Tox first because he was passive

Then I locked in because his reaction and Akip’s immediate defense was NOT something they would have done nearly as quickly and without hesitation if they were evil

[winter escarp]

Man this is some serious Serial Killer Rework discussion

[austere gulch]

You just seem to be blinded by benefit of the doubt

[fathom horizon]

yeah and that was how they exposed themselves as evil

[austere gulch]

That’s a common mistake

[fathom horizon]

not playing passive

[austere gulch]

Made by bad scumreaders

[winter escarp]

Roblox

[austere gulch]

Passive play is an evil tell

[fathom horizon]

ahem

[austere gulch]

Even if it’s not universal it’s still one that should be scrutinized

Because a passive player is always more suspicious than an active one

[signal wagon]

lmao

[austere gulch]

That’s rule one of scumreading

[austere gulch]

SK shouldn’t be rb immune

Do you agree

[winter escarp]

The SK rework allows for some passive play into a random new role

[fathom horizon]

generally if im evil im always active

[austere gulch]

No because people will be looking for an SK amidst new roles

[winter escarp]

New ability shouldn't be. Otherwise yeah.

[fathom horizon]

if im good i tend to try and take the sidelines unless im a strong role that needs to lead

[austere gulch]

Then you’re an abnormality that wouldn’t survive in mountainous

It seems you don’t know how to scumread, and that’s fine

You can still get a job without knowing

[winter escarp]

Oh wait SK "shouldn't be"

[fathom horizon]

well i havent really heard of it so idk

[winter escarp]

Ability should be rbable

[fathom horizon]

im learning and currently out of practise gimme a break

[winter escarp]

Otherwise, normal kills shouldn't

[fathom horizon]

ive been playing roguelites nowadays

[austere gulch]

That’s fine, but what I’m saying is don’t call things you don’t understand random bullshit

It’s rude, condescending, and makes you look like a fool to those who know what they’re doing

[fathom horizon]

im calling it random bullshit because everyone else post game said it was

[winter escarp]

I know Blood in the Clocktower like the back of my hand personally

[austere gulch]

Again
Scumreading isn’t something everyone knows how to do at a high level

[winter escarp]

[austere gulch]

What’s was the thirteenth experimental townsfolk released

[delicate saddle]

on*

[winter escarp]

The one that can fix sabotages three times and can vent

[winter escarp]

[loud nexus]

sk moment

[winter escarp]

SK moment

[delicate saddle]

any BoTC minds wanna tell me if this is ture of fail..

[winter escarp]

it is indeed a ture of fail

As an experienced player of Blood in the Clocktower myself

[fathom horizon]

what is the greatest botc role of all time

[delicate saddle]

Atheist

[winter escarp]

The one that screams really loud

[delicate saddle]

Psychopath

[winter escarp]

Louder than that

[delicate saddle]

loud screamer

[winter escarp]

That one

[fathom horizon]

[delicate saddle]

does anyone have BoTC homebrew texture overlay btw

[winter escarp]

I have all of them but I refuse to give them to you

Because they're mine

[delicate saddle]

pretty please

[winter escarp]

[delicate saddle]

Gatekeeping is a Curtis Supporter behaviour

[winter escarp]

Me but I'm 7 feet tall and very muscular and awesome

[restive kite]

i have an issue with this rework

what happens if ure a sk recruit

how is jackal informed of the recruit change of username

or how would revealed mayors and stuff work if u disguise as them

cause it outs u if they have used abilities/haven't used both charges

[winter escarp]

That's a TubaAntics coding problem to solve

[winter escarp]

You don't get their votes/abilities (Tuba explained it somewhere in the post)

[pliant bloom]

scumreading is easy

[austere gulch]

In this game maybe

We're not talking about this game

We're talking about a game with no flips, no role reveal, and where all your info might be false for some reason or another

[pliant bloom]

I mean I've done it in multiday as well

[austere gulch]

I still scumread the whole evil team

And people said I was just lucky when I had clear reasoning for it

[pliant bloom]

I do it in botc consistently

[austere gulch]

Yeah

Not everyone can though

[pliant bloom]

I have really good reads on botc, you can ask tuba from when he played with me

[austere gulch]

Tuba played BotC with you?

Crazy

[pliant bloom]

he snakecharmed the demon

and our old demon outed me and our other minion

we basically won cause the old demon was being a dick and the town decided to lose on purpose just to piss him off

but I mean I've straight up solved games as ogre with basically 0 info cause the guy I chose died n2 as undertaker