Serial Killer Rework

[pliant bloom]

and then NK will just be arsonidt

LOL

[graceful stratus]

It will be even funnier if I am evil because I keep evil wills on default LOL

[noble vector]

To be fully honest I think that’s a valid counter strategy if you want to do it but it will take a lot of effort

I don’t think it will be meta for that reason

But I think that’s a valid strategy low key

[pliant bloom]

then SK will just ignore you

[whole grove]

-# It can easily be fixed by adding the copyying messages feature from TOS1 so you can just copy the will whenever it is posted

[noble vector]

-# true

[pliant bloom]

waste of time copying a will of someone whose going to such extremes to counter 1 role that spawns in modes where it has the lowest wr in the game

[noble vector]

You can whisper someone “if my will has this word in it then I am fake”

That would be a way easier wa to do it

[lusty oyster]

LOL

[lone yoke]

@lusty oyster has leveled up! (85 ➜ 86)

[whole grove]

oh god

[noble vector]

You’d have to hide it in the Will without the SK realising tho

Idk this seems like fun counterplay to me personally

[whole grove]

How about "here's a code word, if you don't know it in 3 days you got disguised"

[pliant bloom]

the jester in question:

[noble vector]

Yeah that works too

[noble vector]

Exactly LUL

[lusty oyster]

me taking on years and millions of debt so when the SK disguises as me they will be financially fucked

[noble vector]

This is why it’s valid counterplay to me

[lusty oyster]

[noble vector]

It’s a social counterplay

[noble vector]

LOL

[pliant bloom]

I mean the thing is though as SK

[noble vector]

Me visiting every arsonist in town rq

[whole grove]

The SK doesn't have all information of the person they copy, which is where you can catch them

[pliant bloom]

if you're disguising it should be someone you know a lot about

[lusty oyster]

ask the sk if they are a homosexual, if they answer with anything other than "yes i am a catboy" hang them

[pliant bloom]

else this happens

[noble vector]

Mhm exaxtly

[pliant bloom]

I whisper a lot so I'd probably just figure out a bunch of shit on one person and then disguise as them

[lusty oyster]

i mean

[pliant bloom]

also this just made me remember

[lusty oyster]

we can avoid

like

codes

[pliant bloom]

https://tenor.com/view/tf2spy-he-could-be-any-one-of-us-gif-22141763

[lusty oyster]

by just giving SK

whisper logs

[whole grove]

true

[pliant bloom]

literally SK now

[noble vector]

I don’t think it’s an issue personally

[noble vector]

Exactly LUL

[lusty oyster]

when they become the new person they get to see all the new's whisper but can't see their old whispers

[whole grove]

but thats also weird because you'd be altering the message log which is usually the same

[noble vector]

I don’t think it’s necessary

That takes tons of effort to code

[pliant bloom]

wdym new

[noble vector]

Afaik

[lusty oyster]

when 11 hops to 12

ok so

[pliant bloom]

oh you can't see your old whispers

[whole grove]

Easier solution: SK gets whisper reading and shuts down whispers entirely

[noble vector]

They see all of 12’s past whisper contents?

[pliant bloom]

the sk learning everyone's roles d2

[noble vector]

Idk why we are coming up with solutions to this when it’s not a problem

[whole grove]

Perfect for my seer claim

[noble vector]

If you have valid counterplay it’s not needed

Giving SK whisper reading could be a shrimple buff tho in that regard yes

If it needed it ever

[lusty oyster]

3 whispers 11 "amogus"
4 whispers 12 "FUCK YOU"
11 hops into 12
11 (12) can no longer see "amogus" form 3 but 11 (12) can now see the "FUCK YOU" form 4

[whole grove]

We could try it out in its current state and then fix any issues if they become very oppressive

[pliant bloom]

SK now has "I'm All Ears" from ghost face DBD

[noble vector]

Exactly

[lusty oyster]

.

[noble vector]

Real LOL

SK learns whenever townies fast vault

And sees their aura

[lusty oyster]

oh my god i just thought of something stupid

[pliant bloom]

sk also runs lethal pursuer and noed

[lusty oyster]

but i can't say it here

[noble vector]

Lethal peruser my beloved

[noble vector]

If you can’t say it here is it worth saying at all

[pliant bloom]

peruser

[noble vector]

Lethal purse

[pliant bloom]

Lethal Purse

[noble vector]

Lethal Percy

[pliant bloom]

Lethal Performance

[noble vector]

I can’t believe that serial killer now has the ability that when they basic attack the obsession, the obsession is given a terror radius and the serial killer is undetectable for 30 seconds

[pliant bloom]

technically this is true with this rework

since the sk is now the obsession

LOL

[lusty oyster]

aw fuck it

[noble vector]

Exactly LUL

[lusty oyster]

imagine as wilding you find out it's an SK game
because 1 and 2 are fucking erping
and then suddenly 1 and 3 countinue the erp

😭

[noble vector]

Oh wonderful

[lusty oyster]

tell me

if you want that

deleted

@noble vector

[noble vector]

Uuuhhhh

[graceful stratus]

SK should read whispers like Wildling LOL

[lusty oyster]

no

NO

[noble vector]

I mean if someone has issue with it delete it but otherwise it’s fine loool

[lusty oyster]

give that to WW

lmao

poor guy needs a buff

[noble vector]

I think whisper reading would have synergy with this ability

Werewolf needs something else

[lusty oyster]

fair

[graceful stratus]

Make all NK read whispers

[lusty oyster]

no

[noble vector]

Jackal: 😭

[graceful stratus]

[whole grove]

Every evil can now read whispers

[noble vector]

Whisper stonks drops to an all time low

[winter escarp]

I mean, just make your will hard to Imitate if it's THAT much of a concern

(Which it isn't, since you're countering fucking SK)

[austere gulch]

Wildling is now out of a job

(Reading whispers is literally all it has going for it)

[toxic wraith]

Town would never whisper. Therefore, whispering would confirm you as evil. Therefore, no players would ever whisper.

[noble vector]

I think that was a joke

I dont think cat is legit suggesting that LUL

[whole grove]

The only real suggestion is SK reading whispers

[noble vector]

mhm

also I keep thinking your pfp is a llama idk how

[toxic wraith]

Anyways, what I actually came here to say was that I don't think anything around this idea should be implemented, because I guarantee you I could find a way to metagame it.

[noble vector]

I mean, go ahead

If there are issues it would be good to find them now

[tight pier]

I am gonna be honest I think you’re worried over nothing, especially if sk can see whispere

[noble vector]

Otherwise I see no reason to say no because of possibilities

Exactly yeah

[toxic wraith]

Is Disguise a Basic Attack, just like the regular attack?

[noble vector]

yes

[pallid portal]

do u think it should be Powerful

[noble vector]

That would let it take a monarch's place as well as dealing with other NKs

[pallid portal]

overthrow mon

[toxic wraith]

Monarch is why I asked

lol

[noble vector]

I think maybe it should

[woven schooner]

is it refunded if it fails?

[noble vector]

So Monarch isn't immune to it

[pallid portal]

yea you do not lose the charge

upon failure

[cold plover]

I don't see the point. If you try to take an NK, you out them anyway

[noble vector]

Monarch

[tight pier]

Hmmm
Right yeah its worse than poss jump since poss ignored healing
But healing mech is different in this game

[cold plover]

just kill the knights?

[noble vector]

While there are knights it would mean monarch cannot be SK

[tight pier]

Powerful i dont think is a huge buff

[woven schooner]

Maybe Disguise should just silently fail if your target was healed , but otherwise bypass any form of defense?

[noble vector]

No me either

One time powerful

[woven schooner]

So you don't fuck over TP's, but you can bypass monarch defense

[pallid portal]

it doesnt rly fuck over tps

cleric gives powerful defense

it still saves

it just makes monarch not immune to it

[delicate saddle]

i think disguise should work this way:

• upon using disguise, you gain invincible defense and rb immunity, and you get 40 million dollars in real life

[woven schooner]

I was talking about making disguise ignore defense unless TP was on them

[toxic wraith]

I figured out a way to metagame this, I think

[tight pier]

Basically yeah
Man tol poss ain’t lookin so hot now

Which makes sense i guess
I think possessor had a 15% winrate

[toxic wraith]

A person who gets stolen will die on their screen, correct?

[tight pier]

Lmao

[noble vector]

you kill the person you disguise as yes

and take their place

[toxic wraith]

So if that person disconnects, but you as the SK are in their body, what happens?

[kindred leaf]

assuming there are no TPs protecting the knights

[noble vector]

You don't learn when dead players dc iirc

[toxic wraith]

You can

[noble vector]

also tactical leaving is bannable

[woven schooner]

they become your corpse so it'll show as if their corpse dcd

[noble vector]

under foul play

[toxic wraith]

They're already dead

[pallid portal]

their corpse show as your old name

so its gonna show as they dcd

the names are permanently swapped

[noble vector]

ah right so if they leave, your old body shows as DCd?

[woven schooner]

Transporter for names

[pallid portal]

when does it leave tho

[cold plover]

yeah ig

[pallid portal]

i dont understand the logic

[toxic wraith]

So, we can metagame this. Any person who gets killed by SK, "leave if you got skinstolen"

Same with metagaming Jinx ig

[noble vector]

If this worked they would be banned

And it doesn't work as tuba just said

[pallid portal]

its gonna show as sk's old name dced

[woven schooner]

Disguising as someone because they are confirmed : Bad, Unoriginal, Metaslave play
Disguising as someone because they have a funny name : Smart, Original, Probably a throw

[pallid portal]

it would not work

as if someone died to sk and dced

[noble vector]

Tactical Leaving is foul play and suspendable

And it doesn't work in this instance anyway

[tight pier]

You could also just fix this by not showing if dead players leave at all but also yeah thats tactical leaving

[toxic wraith]

That would be GREAT

[tight pier]

ToL did a lot to make poss work (can you believe it originally got implemented with a role that can read dead chat?)

[noble vector]

oh my god LOL

[cold plover]

idk

[woven schooner]

wait

[cold plover]

I dislike powerful attacks bc it makes shroud worse

[woven schooner]

let's readd medium to nerf sk

[noble vector]

Medium I do not miss at all

[tight pier]

Early tol was actually drugged up design and it was GLORIOUS

[noble horizon]

shroud needs to focus coven

[woven schooner]

Transporter on the other hand..

[noble vector]

😭😭😭 oh my god LOL

[woven schooner]

I miss transporter

[noble horizon]

shroud can evade detection a lot

[woven schooner]

Shroud can evade taxes a lot

[tight pier]

Don’t worry
POSS HAD INFINITE JUMPS (:

[noble vector]

[toxic wraith]

I think the only buff Shroud needs is to make Shrouded players appear as Shroud to ALL revealers and not just Murder.

[noble horizon]

I love evading taxes

[woven schooner]

why are we talking about shroud

this is a SK thread

[cold plover]

atp what's the point of attacking
(ignore the 1 million possessors dead)

[woven schooner]

we believe in SK supremacy here

[toxic wraith]

don't know, but I figured i'd throw in my 2 cents

[teal peak]

cool

[pallid portal]

medium is good concept but ppl leaving ruined the whole role

[tight pier]

Because poss in tol has always had the “force someone to attack another” so always jumping could get you knight killed

[noble vector]

Medium was a bad concept imo

It hard countered 4 roles and only really confirmed each other

[woven schooner]

I mean, hard counters roles.. aren't good (Jinx, Medusa, Enchanter in shambles when Medium exists)

[toxic wraith]

Medium hard-counters so many roles though

[noble vector]

Otherwise it didn't do much

It was just a hard counter role

[pallid portal]

that too ig

[tight pier]

Anyway uh

[pallid portal]

transporter caused a lot of confusion

[woven schooner]

Ambusher, Dusa, Janitor and?

[noble vector]

Forger

[toxic wraith]

Forger

lol

[woven schooner]

crap yeah right

[noble vector]

did u forgor about forger

[pallid portal]

Froger

[tight pier]

Genuinely I think shroud with the tol possessor’s normal attack (force someone to secretly attack a player of your choosing) would make the role infinitely more interesting

[woven schooner]

I forgot about forger not being Enchanter ngl

Miss direction my beloved

[cold plover]

give shroud a true control?

[tight pier]

Little known fact
I dislike shrouding as a mechanic

[noble vector]

I forgot about ambusher not being jinx LOL

[tight pier]

Not quite a witch control just
You make someone else carry out your attack

[cold plover]

giving shroud a true control but it not giving you their role

[toxic wraith]

The concept of Shrouding is to make another person kill for you.

The issue is: it only affects 3 roles in the game.

[woven schooner]

I mean forger also did, yet it's still there.. give us back our way to force evil to commit self with vigilante pls :(

[noble vector]

Anyway aside from that Medium was basically a glorified version of the ability to see a dead player's feedback that current spy has
and current spy already gets 0 value from that

[woven schooner]

he does actually

[pallid portal]

The thing is Transporter would have to be UO immune

[woven schooner]

the amount of time I was able to gather the seer's last results

[tight pier]

Yeah so just-
Actually why don’t I just propose it in a separate thread this is sk thread

[cold plover]

witch alr is

[toxic wraith]

Trickster is alr Trans if it was useful

[tight pier]

Transporter is

Well

[noble vector]

Apparently it's the other way around
Crus and other UO roles are witch immune ??

[pallid portal]

Original trickster was transport self but kills

[woven schooner]

Is that supposed to be a downside? It allows evil to fake trans if needed

[noble vector]

What I heard anyway

[tight pier]

Transporter is either god or negative utility

[noble vector]

Tuba is this correct or not

[woven schooner]

main issue was that you were forced to play like a vet

[tight pier]

No

Witch is just UO immune

[pallid portal]

Crus is control immune

That is correct

[tight pier]

Really

[woven schooner]

Told ya

[tight pier]

Wack

[noble vector]

So witch gets blocked by UO as well

[tight pier]

ToS priority makes no sense to me 💀

[pallid portal]

in vanilla Curt coded socialite so it might be different

[woven schooner]

I know because I thought admirer was useful once but no it was just me being withc immune

[noble vector]

That makes sense to me

[woven schooner]

[noble vector]

Witch is strong it doesn't need to beat UO

[toxic wraith]

It only says RB Immune on the card, also is the message just the "Unwavering Resolve" one?

[pallid portal]

I think so

[woven schooner]

yeah

[woven schooner]

I thought admirer was useful

[toxic wraith]

?

[woven schooner]

but it was just crus being built different and ignoring witch

[pallid portal]

astral roles dont get UO from crus

[noble vector]

Those were my eggs I was boiling and curt sent them in modmail LOL

[pallid portal]

astral visits *

[cold plover]

LOL

boiled now

i once made a psy bypass crus

[noble vector]

Hard boiled !

[winter escarp]

Jailed players should get witched

[woven schooner]

Jailed players should die

[winter escarp]

yeah Jail should be like a prosecute

just kills whoever's jailed instantly

[woven schooner]

Jailor should steal 10% of the defence of anyone they jail and force them to defeat them in a 1v1

[toxic wraith]

What is even the point of the "state your cases" phase of the prosecution?

[pallid portal]

ask bmg

[toxic wraith]

We won't get a response.

[winter escarp]

jailor should try to plunder from two people and win in an RPS game

[woven schooner]

"YOU TARNATION I WAS CONFIRMED MONARCH"

[toxic wraith]

Could also be done in the normal "last words" phase though

[noble vector]

flavour prob

[woven schooner]

Your honor, league of legends
death

[pallid portal]

"Urine."

[woven schooner]

Jarate

[toxic wraith]

Oy, are we still trying to make NKs unique?

[woven schooner]

w<hat

Wrong thread, this is the urine rework thread

[pallid portal]

Curt said yeah but I dont think its super necessary rn

Considering I'm doing most BTOS2 balance stuff

I know Curt is working on other stuff rn

[cold plover]

nks are unique anyway in most lists

[noble vector]

Tuba ooooo u are being hypnotised ooooooo u want to make NKs unique ooooooo

[pallid portal]

its an all any issue

[icy jewel]

make NKs unique

[noble vector]

its a

[icy jewel]

[pallid portal]

yeah only one nk in most set lists

[woven schooner]

I mean AA isn't meant to be balanced

[pallid portal]

exactly

[woven schooner]

so it's not really useful to force NK to be unique

[winter escarp]

AA should be a Ranked rolelist in disguise fr

[noble horizon]

I will run TAA in my ranked games

trust

[winter escarp]

imagine having an April game and the rolelist is Ranked with Secret Killers

[noble vector]

all the slots are any but secretly it generates a fairly balanced ranked list every single time

this is Casual Mode Deception

[winter escarp]

it's just this every time https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1269049223387676835

[pallid portal]

Wildcard Coven Ranked :

[noble vector]

[cold plover]

DIEDIEDIE

[noble horizon]

https://tenor.com/view/vencord-discord-discord-mod-gif-meme-gif-18313379233532818658

[winter escarp]

is the equivalent of the trollface of this server to me

[tight pier]

[toxic wraith]

So I'm too lazy to bother making a post, so here.
Shroud: Choose 2 targets. Force the first to deal a Basic Attack to the second. You will visit your first target. Your first target will still perform their normal ability for the night on their chosen target, and will receive no notification of being Shrouded. However, they will appear as having visited your second target to all visit trackers, as well as acting like a harmful visit and appearing like a Shroud to all role revealers for the night, except Neutral Pariahs.
Coroners will see your second target as having been killed by the Shroud, and will always see your first target as the Shroud, even on future nights.

Just make that the Shroud ability.

[clever halo]

I think it should be basic

[patent rapids]

LEV???

[scarlet cipher]

Change the attack to attack to powerful then it's fine

[twin nest]

I prefer the SK rework idea that makes it more like old CL instead this bc shroud is so insanely pathetic atm

[scarlet cipher]

Same

The original propose sk rework is more interesting

[calm radish]

Lore balance D:

[fathom horizon]

where

[pliant bloom]

so the one that gives it powerful attack for basically no reason

and in most modes here where SK can spawn doesn't do much of anything

[austere gulch]

^

People need to remember why the old CL design sucked

It was only useful at countering neutrals

That's it

It does nothing to combat town outside of making one role in particular die to it

(Well technically two but if you're killing a Vet by that point you've already lost)

[alpine patio]

problem with that rework is that there was literally no point to go aggressive until the very very end of the game in specific conditions

[austere gulch]

Exactly

It might as well just be

"SK gets detection immunity"

[noble vector]

Shroud is fine as well atm

It's certainly not pathetic

[austere gulch]

Shroud is bad

But its the best of the bad

The other NK are worse

[noble vector]

Well

[alpine patio]

I think arsos better tbh

[noble vector]

Arso is arguably better yeah

[austere gulch]

Only in specific rolelists or if it gets lucky

[noble vector]

It suffers in tos 2 but

[austere gulch]

Shroud is more consistent

And has a higher winrate

[alpine patio]

people just sit on their ignites too long imo

[noble vector]

Shroud and Arso are the top

SK and WW are the bottom

[alpine patio]

once you get 3 douses just go for it in most lists

[noble vector]

I think Shroud's winrates is a legit tell of their strength, because they do well across a few modes

Consistency seems to be a big factor in NKs

Whereas WW and SK who are difficult to control and can kill their own team accidentally, they suffer

[alpine patio]

well if it was sk wouldnt be the literal bottom of the barrel though

I dont think its THAT inconsistent

[noble vector]

I meaaaannn

It has a horrific winrate

[alpine patio]

okay I thought you meant consistent gameplay wise

[alpine patio]

it consistently kills is what I meant

[noble vector]

You cannot control bloodlust

it activates on its own and is very easy to lose

plus rampaging is kinda inconsistent by nature

so I think it is very inconsistent

[alpine patio]

eh

youre solo anyways

[noble vector]

I'm sure part of SK and WW having a lower winrate is them killing each other tho

[alpine patio]

nps wont die to bloodlust

[noble vector]

You will lose bloodlust if you hit them though

And now you're just a godfather

for the next two nights which, probably won't happen!

[alpine patio]

personally I just think sk is too loud with nothing else to compensate for it

[noble vector]

Games are too fast to get Bloodlust back if you lose it

yeah

[austere gulch]

Coroner winrate goes wild

[noble vector]

Coroner's winrate is 100% an anomaly LUL

[alpine patio]

prosecutor being that high is crazy

[noble vector]

I think it's a bit of an anomalous result as well

But stats are interesting

not something to treat as gospel of course, there are always different explainations as to why stats might be how they are which isn't "oh this role is just this consistently good/bad!"

But they are a good way to challenge stances you might be too heavily leaning into as well

[mellow wadi]

it can depend on whether or not your team had good/bad roles too

[noble vector]

Of course, luck is always a factor

especially in all any

but TAA also had the biggest sample size at the time of these stats being released

[alpine patio]

what was the sample size for taa

[noble vector]

Over 200 games I believe

It would be more nowadays

[alpine patio]

okay thats def nowhere near enough

[noble vector]

Would be interested in seeing stats redone

[pallid portal]

I'll re gather these stats soon

I just want some time to pass

[noble vector]

Yeahhh

[pallid portal]

How long has it been since that stream ?

[noble vector]

Get some proper solid stats

Uhh one sec

Almost a month

I posted about them on the 14th of July which is when the stream happened I believe

[pallid portal]

So it is a month next week

basically

[noble vector]

Yeah!

Maybe it would be good to look into getting them done next week?

Who knows

[pallid portal]

Maybe

[noble vector]

Food for thought

[pallid portal]

We'll see

[steep rover]

For anyone who has played ToL it's like the Possesser

[scarlet cipher]

That sk rework didn't have that problem as it had difference properties that affected then town depending on if you choose cautious or not

[alpine patio]

the properties that interacted with town in question were 2 and they were a pretty big net negative for switching to aggressive

[grizzled knoll]

close enough welcome back Fang Gu

(im aware there's a lot of differences, this is a joke)

[tight pier]

Possessor is calling.
He’s suing fang gu

[pliant bloom]

my goat

[austere gulch]

Fang Gu has DA on his side

Possessor is not getting custody

[pliant bloom]

politician wants to sue fang gu for ruining their perfect winning game

[noble vector]

Your weapons and your walls are but smoke in dreams

[pliant bloom]

ogre also has a statement it wants to make

[grizzled knoll]

kazali better smh

[noble vector]

Kazali suuuuck

[pliant bloom]

nunny

you remember when you got marionettes by uyik

and I was perma drunk for the rest of the game

LOL

[noble vector]

That was such a fun time LMFAO

I was legit thinking of the exact same game LOL

[pliant bloom]

me and spod were so confused why nobody I picked was cera mad

[noble vector]

That game was so confusing for everyone

[pliant bloom]

oh my god that poor log dude

[noble vector]

And also the fact the politician perfectly filled for the missing cera madness

So I wouldn’t realise my ability actually worked LOL

[pliant bloom]

it was noite

[noble vector]

Yeaa

[pliant bloom]

he played so perfectly dude

[noble vector]

Fr LUL

[noble vector]

Tbf if I was in their position I might doubt myself as well at that point LOL

[pliant bloom]

cause dude the fact he made someone mechanically ask if there could be another savant

[noble vector]

FR LOL

Also like the person who sussed out uyik was demon since D2 but nobody listened to them somehow LOL

I don’t remember who that was tho

[pliant bloom]

the guy randomly just said it for no reason iirc

and he just kept pushing on it

[noble vector]

He metagamed it

I remember

Because STs kept going into calls with uyik LOL

But he never said that in game

Which is prob a good thing

[pliant bloom]

clearly he was just the 3rd savant

[noble vector]

LOLLLL

[pliant bloom]

I think he didn't wanna ruin the game

[noble vector]

Yeahhhhh

Which is good

[pliant bloom]

so he just said "he's the demon" and never explained why

mhm

[noble vector]

Yeaaaa

[pliant bloom]

actually look at dms

I'm about to send you the craziest grim ever

[noble vector]

Oh shoot okie!

[grizzled knoll]

whats wrong with kazali 😦

its a super underrated demon 😔 everyone nowadays just wants yagga or LM

[noble vector]

Uh swiiiiingyyyy

Accidentally deletes all the outsiders moment

[grizzled knoll]

removing outsiders?

ah its probably because im biased towards outsiders in general

i love playing/bluffing as outsider

[pliant bloom]

or it adds all 5

[grizzled knoll]

wasn't me but ive seen +3 outsiders in 8p :3

that

game was horrid

but

as a spectator it was funny

[grizzled knoll]

and then since the base1 outsider was hatter, the kazali turned into the no dashii and poisoned the last two townsfolk

so good was just a bunch of potatoes

[shell sail]

How the hell is pros so high when it ends the day In Btos

[alpine patio]

data set is way too small for those stats to be taken to heart

[graceful stratus]

human psychology, pros is good at maintaining majority, etc.

people see green name, they listen

even if they are evil

[cobalt flume]

I don't like this for Serial Killer

On a new role sure

[winter escarp]

Why don't you like it on SK and what should SK get instead

You can't go "I don't like it" and nothing else

[cobalt flume]

First of all, yes the fuck I can

[cobalt flume]

And secondly it's more so because of theming, Serial Killer faking their death could be fine but I feel like it's going to still be overshadowed by Shroud and Arsonist

[winter escarp]

THEMING LMAO

[cobalt flume]

Yes...?

I just don't like the concept that much currently

If it were buffed I could see it working as a role

But I prefer Serial Killer to be the dual-mode playstyle that was suggested previously

This is basically turning it into the default Basic Attack 1 KPN with a one-trick pony ability

Which is what I see a lot of NK ideas pitched as

I know Serial Killer is one of the 1 KPN Neutral Killings but... eugh

I just don't like how this is executed

I would rather see this on a different role with a much more interesting kill method

I am being picky but when have I never not been

[clever halo]

ANYTHING is better than bloodlust and people already shouted down the old SK rework (which was good by the way)

[alpine patio]

there was no reason to go aggressive with the old one

unless you were targeting an nk or something with defense

In which case its probably endgame and now you just lost basic defense against an nk/something with defense

[cobalt flume]

I agree with Bloodlust being bad

I'm not saying we don't need a Serial Killer rework

I just don't like this one for Serial Killer

[cobalt flume]

Oh I do agree that the suggested rework previously wasn't great

I just like the concept so much better, to me it has way more potential

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1224519823917060217
I made my version of it here

[alpine patio]

honestly once this rework is added I dont see it going back

it's going to be something that isnt bad enough to be changed before a ton of other things for a while

tuba alr said he's adding it so

[cobalt flume]

Yeah and that disappoints me

The charged ability is interesting for sure

But the fact that it's the only thing that the role has going for it is just... meh

I don't really like it when roles rely on their one-shot ability in order to have a shot at winning

[fathom horizon]

yeah nks have no room for being one tricks

[noble vector]

Holy guacamole wave appearance what the fridge 🤯

[cobalt flume]

https://tenor.com/view/countess-vaughn-hollywood-divas-wait-gif-10846294

[noble vector]

I only just got what your nickname is supposed to be lmfaoooo

[pallid portal]

In tos2 ppl are used to roles having a lot of abilities where the tos1 style where some roles only had one ability is forgotten really, like old tos1 sk had notihng special

[dire pagoda]

the nks only had the ability to perform somewhat in tos1 because the main evil faction wasn't stacked

they just had less ways to get screwed

but they still sucked

honestly I can still see this being weak

it leaves a good amount of room for skill expression, but you'd have to be pretty skilled already in order to make proper use of it I feel like

[cold plover]

I don't see this being a bad thing

[dire pagoda]

I guess sk is already pretty difficult on account of having absolutely no accomodations to sustain it

other than rb immunity I guess

every other nk gets a little something at least

[noble vector]

Just in general I think people don’t realise that almost every role acting every single night is 100% not something every SDG does by any stretch of the imagination

[dire pagoda]

I don't think that expecting roles to be powerful in a game where many roles are powerful is too much of a stretch

[lusty oyster]

SK was basic as fuck

SK then became OP as fuck

[dire pagoda]

roles can be simple for sure, and some probably should be

but tos2 is really built on power so far

every role does things

[dire pagoda]

it never did that

[lusty oyster]

tos2 sk is op

fuck you mean

[dire pagoda]

it isn't?

[lusty oyster]

bloodlust is like the most aids mechanic lmao

[dire pagoda]

just don't run into the rampage

sk doesn't even get access to it a lot of the time because the condition isn't always reliable

[lusty oyster]

im not dealing with this shit, i just woke up
fuck around = block
I don't like to fuck around in #1197948822358331523 god damn it

[lusty oyster]

it's the fact it's bloodlust

along with counter attack

• SK being able to maintain bloodlust

makes it so fucking stupid

[dire pagoda]

sk still literally has nothing to keep it alive though

it's probably the most vulnerable nk just because all it can do is directly attack every night

[cold plover]

sk is still worse shroud

what's your point

[dire pagoda]

bloodlust literally does so little for it

all this talk about it being op is completely overblown

[delicate saddle]

SK is poopoo i think is 2nd worst NK beside WW

[lusty oyster]

the point is that

1. shroud winning makes no sense dispite being the weakest so stop bringing it up
2. SK having INF rampages if fueled is powerful as fuck

[cold plover]

shroud isn't the weakest lol

[dire pagoda]

if someone runs into its rampage every single night for some reason?

[cold plover]

sk is

[lusty oyster]

SK ISN'T WEAK???

[dire pagoda]

that's debatable

[lusty oyster]

IT HAS THE BEST POTENTIAL KPN

[dire pagoda]

I'd say ww is weaker

[cold plover]

aa balancer here

[dire pagoda]

but sk is weak

[lusty oyster]

i don't balance off AA dumbass

[cold plover]

well ww won the most in s2

[lusty oyster]

don't piss me off istfg

[dire pagoda]

it has the highest potential kpn but relies on an incredibly swingy and overall unreliable mechanic

[cold plover]

I'd say ww is stronger

[delicate saddle]

arso

[cold plover]

it has some deception at least

[dire pagoda]

as well as on actually getting kills

[lusty oyster]

arso doesn't count

arso +1dkpn

(delayed)

[dire pagoda]

running around all over the place with direct basic attacks doesn't exactly lead to good things a lot of the time

[cold plover]

shroud is stronger, proved by win rates and its deception

[dire pagoda]

you've constantly gotta deal with all the stuff that can kill you while also having to worry about defense

[cold plover]

rampage is useless on sk

you need rampage n2 maximum

[dire pagoda]

rampage has some of the easiest counterplay in the game

thinking of dying to rampage? don't!

[cold plover]

sk gets it way too late for it to be useful

[dire pagoda]

you can't legally die to rampage if you don't give consent

[cold plover]

you can actually die to ww's rampage bc you don't know ww exists n2

[lusty oyster]

secret killers

[cold plover]

no lists in casual have that

[lusty oyster]

we need the ranked list back

[cold plover]

that doesn't have an NK

[dire pagoda]

yeah

sk's even forced to telegraph itself

see 2 or more sk kills in the span of 2 nights? sk has rampage the next night

you play accordingly

[cold plover]

ww has power

much of it

but only n2

sk is never powerful

[dire pagoda]

ww's problem is falling off HARD after n2

it relies on a very impactful hit or it just kinda sits there and waits to die

[cold plover]

I guess that's why it won the most out of all the NKs in the JR modes

the N2

[dire pagoda]

relying too much on swing

[cold plover]

not saying WW is good
but sk is worse

[dire pagoda]

sk doesn't rely so much on swing since as long as it's getting successful picks it can still at the very least maintain 1 kpn

[cold plover]

I still prefer WW

but w/e

they're both bad

@lusty oyster sk is probably the worst due to it having no deception at all

[lusty oyster]

it just doesn't make sense

[cold plover]

wym

[lusty oyster]

sk should be the best

[cold plover]

How

[lusty oyster]

but it's the worse

[cold plover]

it has no deception

and u expect it to be good

why

[lusty oyster]

the 50 different mechanics sk has lmao

[cold plover]

making it worse ww?

yeah

[lusty oyster]

how is it a worse WW, it can ramapge n2 n3 & n4... if lucky

[cold plover]

yeah sure ur rampaging n2

sure bud

[dire pagoda]

sk literally has nothing to go on other than kills, is the main thing

[cold plover]

(that's a fixed bug)

[dire pagoda]

even ww has means of passively visiting

[lusty oyster]

fym you mean "bug"

[dire pagoda]

even if that ability itself is pretty trash on an nk

[lusty oyster]

1 kill and 1 counter attack kill = 2 kills for the bloodlust meter

what bug?

[cold plover]

I think you can't get rampage n2 anymore

you can't power it up twice in 1 night iirc

[lusty oyster]

tf?

no i swear you could

[dire pagoda]

you can

[cold plover]

:)

[lusty oyster]

idk i haven't played SK

in forever

[cold plover]

I thought that was fixed

[dire pagoda]

it's the same system that allows you to chain rampages if you get 2 kills every night

it just counts each individual kill

the bug was actually that you'd get counted for 2 kills if you stacked your attack and the counterattack on an rber

[cold plover]

oh shoot

nvm then

[dire pagoda]

so you only got 1 kill but it counted for 2

[cold plover]

misunderstanding

[lusty oyster]

oh that's weird

btw can i just say

[cold plover]

sk is still the worst nk in the game

[lusty oyster]

i don't like how sk works, this is so much more better
i fucking hate bloodlust

[lusty oyster]

it's just this doesn't makes sense as sk has the most potential... but whatever

[cold plover]

it's good on paper
it's worse ww in game

[cold plover]

*most kill potential

[delicate saddle]

SK rampage n2?????

[lusty oyster]

counter attac

[lusty oyster]

ig

i still want this sk

this sk is must more better than bloodlust sk

give us skinner sk!!!!!!

[scarlet cipher]

Yes, if it kills every night
Keyword: if

[clever halo]

Yeah I agree with you. It was better when this was shroud in my opinion but the decision was already made.

[scarlet cipher]

Yeah bloodlust was a flawed mechanic

[clever halo]

No need to worry about shroud since that ship has sailed. It is either SK gets this or nobody does, so let's make sure at least bloodlust gets destroyed

[cold plover]

imo sk needs it more

[scarlet cipher]

The idea isn't bad but it needs something else for it to do so it isn't a one trick pony

[cold plover]

shroud is alr good

[cold plover]

Is that really needed?

[scarlet cipher]

Yes because let's say you swapped with someone, okay cool, hopefully you tricked town
Now what? You still got the standard nk problems to deal with: tp, ti, and tpow

[cold plover]

so what should it get?

[scarlet cipher]

That's a good question, something to deal with at least one of those problems

[cold plover]

none of the other nks have anything to deal with all 3 reminder

shroud has tp
ww has nothing
arso has tp

[pallid portal]

possessor had 2 charges of jumping originally but this could be too confusing here

[scarlet cipher]

Which is why nk have the worse win rates

[graceful stratus]

Would keeping a second will in notes be metagaming or nah?

[lusty oyster]

No but you would be a bitch

[cold plover]

they're not supposed to win lots tbh
yes they are powerful but they're supposed to see how far you can go without a team
shroud and arso going thru tp makes them win more I expect

[graceful stratus]

I would be gamethrowing not to use an optimal strategy is the thing

[lusty oyster]

Honestly

[scarlet cipher]

They deserve a proper chance at winning

[lusty oyster]

Give sk, when they jump, a button to switch between their will, the person they jumped will, and do the same for their notepad

[pallid portal]

again all any issue

[graceful stratus]

It’s called kingmaker XD

[pallid portal]

you guys are asking for powerful attack

[cold plover]

I would not be against powercreeping NK but it would have to be all at once

[lusty oyster]

No

[pallid portal]

which I can do it for the attack they would jump but only that

[graceful stratus]

I don’t think buffing NK is the answer

[pallid portal]

Otherwise Mon is immune to this for some reason

[cold plover]

this is not needed at all

[kindred leaf]

you could always nerf town

[graceful stratus]

Yeah pretty much

and coven

[kindred leaf]

[graceful stratus]

Btos2 does a good job balancing anti neutral coven

already

[cold plover]

we need to fix dreamweaver, wildling and amne

that's the main issues

[kindred leaf]

inb4

[cold plover]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1271791336126812332

[scarlet cipher]

Tbh make amne tos 1 amne and make it ns
Not only is rarer but it's fun again

[kindred leaf]

AMNE PIRATE BABY WOOOOOOOOOOO

[graceful stratus]

This whole idea of being outted fake as NK is not a skill issue when a four coven team can push you into oblivion

[kindred leaf]

amne jackal

[cold plover]

I like the concept of town amne but it's not executed well rn

[graceful stratus]

meh, amnesiac would turn the game too much

[scarlet cipher]

I don't think amne being town and good is really possible at all to do

[cold plover]

for a role that only shows up in TAA this isn't an issue

[graceful stratus]

It needs a complete rework

[cold plover]

Overhaul it then

the currect amne is bad

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1265048360667058336 i like this one

[scarlet cipher]

Really, I think amne should have never been made town at all

[pallid portal]

that one is too strong

[graceful stratus]

TAA is a sandbox so ofc it wouldn’t be an issue

[cold plover]

it turning tpow may be a bit much I agree

[pallid portal]

it basically makes a 3rd tpow slot

[cold plover]

but I like the recall bit

[pallid portal]

that evils need to kill

[cold plover]

Yeah

[pallid portal]

i do not like it

[cold plover]

the recall ability is cool tho

[pallid portal]

recall is just a variation of ret

and would be difficult to code it in, youd become the role then become amne again

[noble vector]

I think amnesiac will always have crossover with ret to some extent, tbf

[scarlet cipher]

Tbh I think make amne tos 1 amne and slapping ns on it is the best way to go

[cold plover]

hm ic ic
let ret use seer then it is good ig

[graceful stratus]

No

[pallid portal]

i would prefer that as a new role

[cold plover]

(no clue how)

current amne exists in case a tpow dies n1

[noble vector]

There’s no easy way to make it happen, it has to be single target

[pallid portal]

that just banishes amne to taa

or april

[graceful stratus]

Imagine if amne could choose the role that would be too op

[cold plover]

I think amne should be its own role in some way though

[lone yoke]

@cold plover has leveled up! (30 ➜ 31)

[cold plover]

L tatsu

[graceful stratus]

*town roles ofc

[scarlet cipher]

Tbh retri is already strong (but situational)
But I'm sure Tuba could find a way to make it work

[pallid portal]

everyone will wait for tpow

[graceful stratus]

yep.

[pallid portal]

current amnes fine rn

i just feel weird

why it isnt ts

[graceful stratus]

Amnesiac would be cool if you could wait to random draw a role

[cold plover]

ts slot is ruined by admi

[pallid portal]

well

speaking is easy than finding a good idea

[cold plover]

btw if mon could gain back a charge using revoke why doesn't energise work

[pallid portal]

no one has came up with a good one i admit btos admirer is not good enough

[cold plover]

the original idea

[pallid portal]

its way too difficult to code

[noble vector]

BTOS admirer still better than vanilla any day tho

[pallid portal]

and the ui can allow you to target 2 ppl same time max

some roles leading to target 3x or 4x

same time

with energize

[noble vector]

A role that affects itself vs a role that affects every other role in the game

[cold plover]

hm ok

[scarlet cipher]

The only thing I could see that could be changed about amne that isn't a rework or an overhaul is giving them the choice to remember automatically or by their own choice

[pallid portal]

the mon change is proposed , not confirmed to make it

[noble vector]

It’s easy to apply human logic to code and say “if x is easy y should be too!” but usually it’s some fucked up other way of working that’s actually way harder

[graceful stratus]

I’m a little worried about mon rework because I don’t want to justify night 1 knights

[cold plover]

yeah sorry about that

[pallid portal]

so many proposed changes did not get in

some people treat it as if i said something its gonna %100 make it

[noble vector]

HOW DARE YOU!!! (This is a joke it’s no problem)

[graceful stratus]

Revoking knights would make tt so much more interesting

[noble vector]

Main reasoning for mon revoking nights is because knighting evils makes the game end way too fast

[pallid portal]

the opinions were mixed on the stream chat

some ppl like it some ppl hate it

[noble vector]

It’s another thing in the long chain of trying to not have tos 2 be way too fast

[cold plover]

I don't like it bc it makes mon too good

[winter escarp]

make everyone start with 2 votes and have the Monarch's job be removing them

[graceful stratus]

A good monarch would revoke for safety and an evil one would revoke for majority

[cold plover]

I like current mon

[graceful stratus]

mon is really boring atm

[noble vector]

Also tbf I don’t think anyone was coming at it with the same logic, people were looking at it as a “buff” compared to an overall game health thing

[graceful stratus]

and an easy mislynch

[pallid portal]

"no one likes it"

is not a feedback at all

i saw some ppl say that

but like that just discourages me from bringing up ideas

[winter escarp]

I personally like it :D

[noble vector]

Some people try anything to make their opinion seem like the correct one it’s annoying

[pallid portal]

no the thing is , its a valid point that it might encourage

n1 knighting

[graceful stratus]

[winter escarp]

make revoking 1 charge then

[pallid portal]

it already is 1 charge

[winter escarp]

so people have to think about it a little more

oh

[noble vector]

It was proposed as one charge yeah

[winter escarp]

well, I don't think it's an issue personally

[noble vector]

Me neither

[graceful stratus]

Revoking is a valid strategy and could add to the game

[noble vector]

Also evils can still use it to their advantage

[winter escarp]

adding more depth to a role isn't bad

[noble vector]

Get a knight revoked from a legit player and waste mon’s revoke

And time

[cold plover]

I still dislike it

[noble vector]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

It’s probably not getting in anyway

[winter escarp]

just make a poll. If it's not 75% positive, then don't add it IMO

[graceful stratus]

?

[noble vector]

Or a post

[winter escarp]

3-1 ratio of good to bad

[graceful stratus]

Why that specifically?

[noble vector]

So most people like it

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[graceful stratus]

That biases it towards not adding it

[winter escarp]

if it's like a 55% approval it doesn't feel as genuine

[graceful stratus]

no

[winter escarp]

that's the point

[noble vector]

Opinions sounded mixed so that would be a smart course of action

[winter escarp]

I like it. If nearly half the people don't (but majority still likes it), that's still isolating nearly half the playerbase

maybe even 4-1 good to bad ratio

[graceful stratus]

I’m not emotionally attached to the mon rework or anything but I don’t think saying a vast majority liking it is necessary

[noble vector]

Prob a bit excessive

[winter escarp]

plus it isn't a big enough change to have people go batshit insane over

[graceful stratus]

Revoking knights is going to make mon in tt hunt much more interesting

[winter escarp]

"Monarch can revoke knights now. Game is ruined."

I don't think it's that crazy of a change to make

plus I've heard people talking about how it's a decent change.

that gives Monarch a little more flavor as a role.

[fast raven]

Also if monarch gets witched it allows them to revoke the knight if they don't trust the person who was knighted

[winter escarp]

that too lol

ooh a new idea

[graceful stratus]

It’s just adding dismantle to monarch basically

[fast raven]

How would it work with cs though

[graceful stratus]

CS would keep revoke charges

probs

[fast raven]

I mean revoking knights

[graceful stratus]

It would, you know, revoke

[winter escarp]

maybe a pseudo-announcement where people who don't religiously check #1197948822358331523 could find proposed changes and vote on whether they're good or not.

@noble vector thoughts?

[noble vector]

I might be wrong but don’t knights already vanish when monarch swaps?

[fast raven]

Idk

[graceful stratus]

technically yeah

Either way it wouldn’t impact too much

It’s so niche to design around a neutral special

aside from jackal

[winter escarp]

like, if one of the devs likes a change, they could add it to a #proposal-announcement as a "we think it's good and should be in the game. how about everyone else?" and have it from there, since there are many people who don't constantly check #1197948822358331523.

[graceful stratus]

Or just make an announcement to avoid clutter

lol

[winter escarp]

that works too

[pallid portal]

none of that is needed

lol

literally every modtalk is summarised

[winter escarp]

no I mean

if there's an idea that you or Curtis likes from #1197948822358331523, whether it's your own or someone else's, posting it as a poll sounds interesting

whether in it's own channel or #announcements or #bettertos2-updates

not everyone checks #1197948822358331523 and not everyone watches your mod talks

or comments on them

[pallid portal]

that is exactly why the modtalk summaries are posted in #bettertos2-updates

i dont get the point

[winter escarp]

fair. I just think having a poll there would make it easier to grasp the opinions of people

[pliant bloom]

I've come to sa

if you are just basing a role off it's potential

then Arso PB SC (as NA) are way better than SK

shroud and ww are also better

[winter escarp]

there are many who like to say "I don't like this", whether they have a reason or otherwise. There are few who say "I like this" and explain why. That's why there's 44 likes and 7 dislikes, while 5 of the people who disliked explained why while only like 10 people who liked explained why

having a simple poll just as a simple guage of opinion in an area that people view more sounds useful

[pliant bloom]

I like this because tuba suggested it

[winter escarp]

lol

[cold plover]

I like this because possessor

[delicate saddle]

i think the reason why dislikes usually needs more explaination than likes is because the suggester already know why people might like it because they know why they like it otherwise they wouldn't really suggest it you don't really see people suggest stuff that they know are pure poopoo that often

[noble horizon]

I feel like this can be metagamed a LOT easier than a lot of other roles, but I do like it

[winter escarp]

while true, many explanations for disliking something are pretty bad.

[graceful stratus]

Metagaming is frowned upon but physical evidence is hard to argue against

[winter escarp]

"I don't like it because of theming" sends 30 messages about it

[graceful stratus]

If an SK who jumped is being inconsistent it can be used against them

[clever halo]

Not every game is voice chat.

Besides, better to have an ability that does something instead of "here slap a powerful attack on him and a rampage that doesnt work"

[delicate saddle]

what if SK have an ability that lets him kill people

[pliant bloom]

^

[pallid portal]

this role will not work in vc lobbies

[pliant bloom]

make him werewolves little brother for a little bit

[pallid portal]

im fully aware it

of it

like i know chilleds crew plays the mod every week

[cold plover]

they can just have the other person take over

act as conversion

[pliant bloom]

nah

people aren't gonna do that

[pallid portal]

ban sk

[pliant bloom]

salt and the thoughts of revenge generally make people just not wanna do that

[pallid portal]

fanggu style of jump would work in vc lobbies

[pliant bloom]

yea

makes them an SK as well

if you wanna code all of that and make the charges from one to another transfer that's up to you

[pallid portal]

that has the issue of current vampire

no one likes being converted

[pliant bloom]

I think the difference is being SK is fun

id much rather be an NK than be a vampire

[shell sail]

I have somewhat of an idea for SK that I’d like to garner feedback on as while I like the idea of “Body jumping” as others have said I think it fits better on another role but I do have an idea to make SK work nicer but idk this is still better than bloodlust by a mile lmao

[winter escarp]

bloodlust should be a day ability that acts similarily to Death

est

[graceful stratus]

They have entire videos of people doing that ofc they would

They just ban it later when it gets old

[noble horizon]

I don't mean voice chat, I mean in terms of how people talk, Like Some People Always Capatalise Their Words and some talk a lot faster than others

(I can quite easily tell sometimes who's who)

[pliant bloom]

you can imitate that unless you physically lack the ability to do something

and most people don't type fast

[noble horizon]

true

I will type fast to avoid getting jumped

[graceful stratus]

That can be easily replicated, and I doubt people will notice unless they are actively trying to call people out for jumping

Just talk fast or capitalize words to compensate

[noble horizon]

yeah

it's just something to adjust to I guess

[graceful stratus]

Jailor needs to do that too

[noble horizon]

true

also "hey 2 type a turkish key" can be done but might need to be flagged as foul play

LOL

[graceful stratus]

Ew

[cold plover]

c

[graceful stratus]

Shun whoever does that

[cold plover]

(pretty sure they have c in turkey?)

[pallid portal]

that sounds like communication outside the game

[pliant bloom]

^

[pallid portal]

how are u supposed to know 2 is turkish

[pliant bloom]

that's kinda cheating

[pallid portal]

yea its against the rules regardless

[cold plover]

they have proxz's regname

[pliant bloom]

in general speaking a diff language is cheating

[graceful stratus]

I’m still using the second will strat since it doesn’t break any rules

Tpows do this anyways

You need a second will to avoid attention in the early to midgame

[pliant bloom]

nah

[noble horizon]

by that I mean if someone (totally not just you) typos and reveals that they have a turkish keyboard, someone accuses them of being jumped, they can prove via typing that key that they wern't jumped

[clever halo]

Sir that is literally a three step recipe to getting banned from stream games

[icy jewel]

???

[noble horizon]

oh I know it's metagaming 100% but it's doable, that's just a potential problem I'm pointing out

(and no I won't do that, I just pick up information a lot)

[vocal heron]

Same, I prefer the previous SK rework as well.
Shroud deserves this rework instead.

[pliant bloom]

lore balancing

old SK rework did literal nothing for the role and was only liked at the time cause CL was problematic and didn't need it

[vocal heron]

Shroud is a ghost like creature, this rework fits it better.
Serial Killer is a blood thirsty killer.

[pliant bloom]

lore balancing yet again

[vocal heron]

the ability should still fit the damn role

[pliant bloom]

and a blood thirsty killer is not a serial killer im p certain

think that's just a mass murderer

[vocal heron]

thats like saying Marshal should be able to murder people at night

cuz who cares about lore balancing

[pliant bloom]

Marshal is a town military role and it kills people during the day

[vocal heron]

alr here's another example

night pros

[pliant bloom]

you're using arguments that make 0 sense to prove your point

[pliant bloom]

refer to this

[vocal heron]

SK stealing identities makes no sense, it fits Shroud better

[pliant bloom]

you're only saying it makes sense for shroud cause it's a ghost

but it doesn't need whatsoever

[vocal heron]

Shroud is the weakest NK

[pliant bloom]

please tell me what reason shroud needs to be able to hop bodies

[pliant bloom]

it is statistically SK and WW

but sure

[vocal heron]

tell me a reason why Serial Killer should be able to swap bodies

[pliant bloom]

because they're disguising as someone to not get caught

what

[vocal heron]

I've only seen Shroud win when there were multiple shrouds.
I've seen SK and WW win alone a few times, but never Shroud (outside an evil heavy April list or smth)

Shroud is the weakest NK

it needs a buff

heck even with multiple shrouds, they still lose because they cant kill other NKs

whereas every other NK can

[pliant bloom]

me when I balance around all ant

🔥

ranked shroud had a higher wr than sk

[vocal heron]

im mentioning All Any because I've only ever seen Shroud win in All Any

it always loses outside it

[clever halo]

While your position is good, two problems sir.

A: This reasoning is unfortunately dog shit

B: It's already going to SK, you should stop wasting your time on this argument. Shouting down the idea will only result in Tuba not giving anyone the idea.

[pliant bloom]

I state again

shroud STATISTICALLY is a better role than SK in the majority of gamemodes

[pliant bloom]

and even then shroud still has a higher wr in all any than SK

[vocal heron]

A. whatever
B. Shit decision, it doesnt fit SK at all

[clever halo]

current Shroud is "meh, could use a bit of help", current SK fucking blows.

[pliant bloom]

that's legit proven by the statistical balance of all any by mist mag and true all any statistics