#Ritualist Rework (Coven Killing Series)

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quiet abyss
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Ritualist (Coven Killing)

Attack: Basic
Defense: None

Abilities:

  • Sacrifice a player to the Old Ones, empowering all attacks against them.
  • Perform a Blood Ritual on a player, expelling all of their blood.

Attributes:

  • With the Necronomicon, you may visit to deal a Basic Attack as well as performing a Sacrifice.

Sacrifice (2)

  • Visit a player and guess a town role: if correct, all attacks against them become Unstoppable and Astral from now on.
  • Successfully Sacrificing a Town Investigative consumes and cannot be done without 2 charges.

Blood Ritual (1)

  • Visit a player and guess their role: if correct, they are dealt a Basic Attack.
  • Town Investigatives cannot be guessed.
latest.png
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Another change we're testing over at the community testing server

sonic eagle
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still NK bullier

junior fog
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how

quiet abyss
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PM and Rit is its own thing

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Witch needs a rework

junior fog
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That requires other coven

quiet abyss
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In a vacuum this is fine.

junior fog
sonic eagle
hushed kettle
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Wait can Sacrifice guess TI

junior fog
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Yes

sonic eagle
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not a huge deal

quiet abyss
quiet abyss
junior fog
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The point is also this no longer wins 1v1s agains nks

quiet abyss
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Apply the same conditions to Sacrifice as Blood Ritual

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Ability fails if the target has innate Defense

junior fog
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Also just... You cannot guess roles revealed to you

sonic eagle
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or change how attacks work

quiet abyss
sonic eagle
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i.e attacks will be astral and bypass tp defense

quiet abyss
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The Sacrifice debuff isn't applied on targets with Defense

junior fog
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That solves the problem

hushed kettle
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I don't like TI being guessable because it still incentivizes them to fake-claim/claim subalignment (The TI isn't that useful when they literally die N2)

junior fog
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Its not an individidual ti deleter though

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TI are rarely protected (except seer but that's a seer problem)

hushed kettle
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It still punishes them for sharing their info

junior fog
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So it won't have much benefit on a ti

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Not particularly

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Coven has bigger targets

wind stag
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I
Think it's actually a good thing if TI aren't encouraged to vomit out literally all info day 2 but thats just me

junior fog
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And you only get 2 sacrifices

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I mean I also agree with that point

wind stag
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If you have an evil check you have many ways to get it out

Use whispers, claim a different TI, claim a vague "you know this player is evil"

quiet abyss
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Let’s continue BOTC-ifying Clocktower folks

quiet abyss
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Notice: We are currently (and will continue to be) testing this change and more over at the BTOS2 Community Testing Server.

https://discord.gg/mzqhqz2Q

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I'll return with feedback soon.

celest jasper
quiet abyss
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That's a change we're testing right now

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Essentially, my goal with it is to standardize CK being the ones to hold the Necronomicon

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Conj already does a good job of doing so

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So I'm testing if Rit being able to do so is balanced

celest jasper
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(Also I feel like the names of the abilities should switch, since they both fit the other ability more thematically)

quiet abyss
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I will say this though

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Even though a Ritualist holding the book gives itself an Astral attack if it sacrifices correctly

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They still have to visit the target to apply the effect

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So they'll still be seen by LOs and Trackers and whatnot

quiet abyss
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I had always imagined "Sacrifice" more as "preparing a Sacrifice that's done by the Old Ones"

celest jasper
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So it sells rit just not the actual killer

quiet abyss
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Yeah

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Even if they bookhold

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They still have to visit

celest jasper
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So a small attraction, like jinx

quiet abyss
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Kinda

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And obviously you can't Blood Ritual while holding the book

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Well you can, it just cancels your kill

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And thereby theres zero point in doing it

quiet abyss
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If you're attacking the Marshal for instance and they have a BG on them

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You won't die to the BG if you Sacrifice the Marshal along with killing them

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Since your Sacrifice visit isn't a harmful one

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And the kill that occurs still behaves as if its Astral and Unstoppable

celest jasper
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So it acts astral the same way necro is astral

quiet abyss
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Yeah well

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Kinda but not really

bitter glen
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I don't see why it would only last for the night it's applied

quiet abyss
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I see no issues with that

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Updated

quiet abyss
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Ritualist Rework (Coven Killing Series)

quiet abyss
bronze pulsar
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oooh

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this is interesting

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the main reason Rit rework didn't happen, if I'm correct, was that people didn't like that it would be a CK without a direct kill

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But this fixes that without being overbearing

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Only potential issue I see is monarch (maybe?) being immune to it but even then I'm not sure if that would be a big deal

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Just dunno if innate defense means like, they need to have it not because of abilities

bronze pulsar
bronze pulsar
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Special abilities being the shield ofc

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And ideally if this wants a shot of getting in it shouldn't require any fancy new UI to be custom made for it

hushed kettle
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How does the player target UI work

bronze pulsar
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All UI in tos 2 require you to click the shield icon

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It's not like tos 1 where you had pmer, just click someone click the potion ez

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it had to be complicated because uh

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fun

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And rit's current UI is just, select a player select a role

hushed kettle
hushed kettle
bronze pulsar
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uh

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I don't think so?

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That sounds like two seperate special abilities to me

quiet abyss
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Innate = you have it by default

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Monarch, Vet, etc all gain defense through abilities

bronze pulsar
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Alr that makes sense then yea

quiet abyss
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So they wouldnt count

bronze pulsar
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What about the UI situation tho

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This is sadly kinda dead in the water if that isn't able to be sorted out

quiet abyss
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Sacrifice would work kind of like how Hypno/Forger/PM worked in tos1

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Click on a target, then select their role from there

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Blood Ritual works as it does right now

bronze pulsar
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That doesn't work sadly

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Nothing in TOS 2 works like that because

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Devs decided so ig

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And modded has to work around that restriction

quiet abyss
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Hmm

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Alright

bronze pulsar
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I don't know if there's a way to make it work without making some changes to the role itself

wind stag
bronze pulsar
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myeah

quiet abyss
hushed kettle
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Day ability ez

bronze pulsar
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TOS 2 has endless UI issues !!

quiet abyss
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Have a toggle built into the RIt UI that allows you to swap between Sacrifice and Blood Ritual

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Thats all it will do

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If you can already add additional slots to a UI, like with Doom having 3

hushed kettle
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Is it possible to turn sacrifice into a day ability that applies the effect at the start of the night

bronze pulsar
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even shrimple

quiet abyss
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That means you can add one slot that simply includes "Sacrifice" and "Blood Ritual"

bronze pulsar
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sounding ideas

hushed kettle
bronze pulsar
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are difficult to make work

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trust me

bronze pulsar
wind stag
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i swear

quiet abyss
bronze pulsar
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the special ability slot counts for both night and day

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the shield ability cannot change ever

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its very annoying !

quiet abyss
bronze pulsar
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Requires modifying the UI

quiet abyss
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Does it?

bronze pulsar
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Even simple sounding changes take a lot

quiet abyss
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It works like Doomsayer

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Doomsayer can select three roles

bronze pulsar
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Nonono think about it

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Doomsayer always has to choose three roles

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you need to first make only two slots appear

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then you need a function so only one works at a time

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and they both lead to different outcomes

wind stag
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how the fuck

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tol used one UI for all role selectors 😭

bronze pulsar
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It's not as easy as just deleting 1 slot trus me

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Curtis was in charge of all the fancy UI shit but he is not directly working as closely with modded as he once was

quiet abyss
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Cant they just blank out the third UI slot

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💀

bronze pulsar
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No you're not understanding

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It would try and apply doomsayer targeting right?

quiet abyss
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I understand

bronze pulsar
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Because that UI is designed to give exactly three outputs

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Just turning one off doesn't work

quiet abyss
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That the UI would need to be modified so that its not exactly Doom targeting

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I'm just asking whether it doing so would make it unusable

bronze pulsar
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UI modification is not possible that's my point

wind stag
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im surprised they didnt make it scalable since more than one role uses "choose a role and target"

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but

quiet abyss
bronze pulsar
wind stag
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bmg moment i guess

bronze pulsar
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I might have done? I don't know if I said that directly, but either way your psychic rework always chooses 3 roles right?

quiet abyss
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It chooses three players

wind stag
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3 players

quiet abyss
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It doesnt choose any roles

bronze pulsar
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You know what I meant

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3 players

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3 targets

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Just trust me, I have spoken with tuba over and over and over and over and over again about this issue with countless roles

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It aint gonna work like that sadly

quiet abyss
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I love unscalable UI systems

bronze pulsar
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Which is why I think a workaround needs to be found that doesn't include modifying UI

quiet abyss
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‼️

bronze pulsar
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Want to know something very fun, Doomsayer + Rit's UI is actually programmed to have a humongus list of what is not possible to select

wind stag
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oh my g o d

quiet abyss
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That sounds very in character for BMG

bronze pulsar
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So you have a fun time going backwards through that to make it work

quiet abyss
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(I've seen their xmls)

bronze pulsar
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I learn this from curt goombie

wind stag
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fr I did a tol xml and like

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i realized that changing the flavor would be way too much work

quiet abyss
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Mfw every single possible combination of "X attacked you but Y saved you" is hardcoded into the xmls

bronze pulsar
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😭

wind stag
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so I did the bare minimum instead and accidentally invented Horseman of the Cult

quiet abyss
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Okay

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This is sad for multiple reasons actually

wind stag
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protip
dont ctrl F

image.png
quiet abyss
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My Enchanter and Illusionist reworks require two targeting abilities

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Since both their standard and special abilities allow them to choose a role

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This news effects them too it seems

bronze pulsar
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tos' hardcoded systems are so fucked it's annoying as hell :(

quiet abyss
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More motivation to continue Salembot development

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I suppose

bronze pulsar
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myeah

quiet abyss
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oh and Dreamweaver

wind stag
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the advantages of manual games

quiet abyss
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My DW overhaul doesnt work if UI cant be modified

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Since its going to require a custom UI

bronze pulsar
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Still worth posting these ideas but

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They just become less and less plausible to add sadly

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I think this has a legit chance to get in if not for the UI problems

wind stag
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also me realizing i dont think my old admirer rework would work either

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unless the pmer UI could work at day

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😔

bronze pulsar
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But you couldn't have a night UI ability with that

quiet abyss
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Doom UI was modified to work during the day

bronze pulsar
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Myeah

quiet abyss
wind stag
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yeah its night ability was justa single target

quiet abyss
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No issue there

bronze pulsar
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Basic rules is
You can only have one ability that works through the shield
And UI abilities have to be done through the shield
And also ideally they work by reusing a current UI system as it already is exactly

wind stag
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although is it possible to give the pmer UI abilities limited usage

quiet abyss
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At least my Wildling and HM reworks still work without UI changes

bronze pulsar
quiet abyss
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If those two get in

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I will be satisfied

bronze pulsar
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yeahh

wind stag
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and I can't imagine recoding ability UI would be any easier lol

quiet abyss
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Charges are hardcoded into every ability iirc

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oh wait

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I just remembered how your thing worked

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I dont think so

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You can't make each individual ability have its own charge counter

bronze pulsar
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If it's like each individual "potion" has charges then idk

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But tbf, the kill potion is able to be locked behind owning the necronomicon so maybe???

quiet abyss
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But you cant keep track of a lock trigger is what I mean

bronze pulsar
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yeah that's probably true

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It would require some funky systems to be added to the UI

bronze pulsar
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meh I really don't know

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that makes it feel slightly less like an independent killer so I feel like people would look at it and go "WHAT !!! NO!!!"

quiet abyss
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Hmm

bronze pulsar
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myeah idk about that one

quiet abyss
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There is a solution

bronze pulsar
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oh?

quiet abyss
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But its dumb

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  • Give Ritualist the ability to target themselves at night. This is an astral visit.
  • If they are targeting themselves at night, that means they are performing Blood Ritual and the game treats it as such.
  • If they're not targeting themselves, that means they're performing Sacrifice.
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Basically

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Instead of using custom UI for a toggle

bronze pulsar
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ohhhhhh right

quiet abyss
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You use the night targeting system

bronze pulsar
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wait I see what you mean yeah

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I think that would work

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It is a bit dumb but it works

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It's just that does it make any sense I do not know

hushed kettle
quiet abyss
hushed kettle
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oh

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I was skimming the text

hushed kettle
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I'm still not convinced with the "able to sacrifice TI" and it's the only reason I still have my downvote placed

bronze pulsar
bitter glen
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but ti having to play the same game as any other alignment makes the game completely unplayable!!!

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the best state of the game is when tis just always instantly will drop and basically can't die

hushed kettle
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are you being sarcastic

bronze pulsar
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Yes

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They are

bitter glen
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yeah I hate the current ti meta

quiet abyss
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When will TI stop mass claiming and actually utilize the goddamn whisper mechanic to its fullest

bitter glen
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it makes tis arbitrarily committal compared to any other alignment

quiet abyss
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It’s so dumb how no one uses whispers btw

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When they’re such a good way of spreading info without evil knowing

bronze pulsar
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Tbf without metas to rely on town tends to random lynch from experience

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But it’s true

quiet abyss
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And can’t scumread well

bronze pulsar
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Play well and blindside an evil with your info, you’ll catch them way easier than just conforming to the meta

bitter glen
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I'm not a noob and I can't scumread well

quiet abyss
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And you know why that is? It’s because hard confirmable roles and massclaim meta carries them

bitter glen
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but I can sure try

quiet abyss
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See

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Compare the ToS and BoTC fanbase

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Tell me which is better: the average tos player or the average botc player

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Now compare the botc fanbase with the forum mafia fanbase

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Then tell me which average player is better

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It’s obvious that tos is town sided because of all the free info town gets

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That’s why the average player is worse

wind stag
quiet abyss
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They don’t need to improve to win

bronze pulsar
bronze pulsar
bitter glen
bronze pulsar
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Me when I get prosecuted because town wanted to know something from me but nobody pinged me and I was busy writing down claims Oopsy Daisy

bitter glen
wind stag
bitter glen
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it's kinda pointless with everyone claiming alignment anyways

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like ah yes allow me to put tp down 4 times this will certainly be to my benefit

quiet abyss
bitter glen
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I personally don't care enough and would rather not risk dying for it

wind stag
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I’ve lied for more frivolous reasons
Prepping an ambush as TI is allllmost my goto

bronze pulsar
bitter glen
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tracker, lookout, and maybe spy are really the only tis that can get away with that

bronze pulsar
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You could do it with investigator too in tos 1

bitter glen
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sometimes

bronze pulsar
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Tbf it might work being an ambush BTOS 2 invest

bitter glen
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that's suboptimal though

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it's always better to go in instantly and ask for their will

bronze pulsar
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That lets evils dictate who they visited

bitter glen
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I guess you could ask someone for their will and then post?

wind stag
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Thinking about the ramifications of claiming investigator trespass on your sheriff guilty
Get them to try and frame someone only to confirm them instead

candid portal
bitter glen
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the rest of the tis basically never get anything from waiting though

candid portal
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I think tracker might be another role I start claiming tpow on

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and LO

oak hound
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ill mislynch you for being pest fr

quiet abyss
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I claim TK as tracker until my target claims

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I also whisper whoever they visit

candid portal
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they're in the boat with coro of being insanely powerful when it's info is hidden

quiet abyss
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Since if they’re evil

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They can’t visit evil

candid portal
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or when only a select amount know

quiet abyss
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(Unless PM but that’s rare)

quiet abyss
bitter glen
quiet abyss
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Then I can ask the visit target to get a claim from my target

bitter glen
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I would totally do that if an investigator found me trespassing

candid portal
wind stag
candid portal
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it becomes very obvious when A whispers B and now B wants a claim from you as C

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it's like either LO or tracker

quiet abyss
candid portal
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I don't get why

quiet abyss
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I also have the option of asking directly

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I do that a lot as well

candid portal
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you can tell a lot of behaviors just from reading whisper patterns

quiet abyss
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Probably more so than the other

quiet abyss
candid portal
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usually like two back and forth and then stopping is either the sharing of info or NP finding an evil or something

candid portal
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and then 5 gets nuked after the whisper

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whisper patterns are always important to pay attention to cause it's also a way to find important town as an evil

quiet abyss
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Yep

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Anyone who immediately whispers a protected player or a knighted player aught to be scrutinized

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I’ve won Doom games that way

celest sinew
fast oxide
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Yeah, this is good.

robust schooner
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ill say the same thing herer

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i like the idea

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however

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This requires us to make a new ass UI for it , or a modified version of the current Rit
And it falls to curtis
I dont have the assetbundle or what its called

celest jasper
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Tbh I think it could be like vanilla invest with percept/investigate, then you target a player and the role menu pops up

quiet abyss
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In Tos2, all special UIs have to be done through a special ability

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AKA the Shield icon

bronze pulsar
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I had another idea for how this could work

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Blood ritual is your default ability only one charge ofc

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But while holding the necronomicon, you instead use Sacrifice